Of free will and omniscience:

To fully comprehend my argument, one must first agree that there exists some plane in this dimension (universe for all intents and purposes) thatcontains all information regarding the actions of all inhabitants of said dimension--this is called the causal plane. Also you must agree that there are an infinite number of universes.

Both of these theories have implications in quantum physics, so im not just pulling things ut of my ass.

Statement: If one cannot experience some occurance, has no reference on which to base that experience, and has no proof that the occurance happened (or happens), then for all intents and purposes one cannt know for certain that the occurance has happened.

Realize in your mind what you might do tomorrow. You may think of many things, work, play, study...

But you do not know which of those futures are on your causal plane. If an infinite number of universe exist, then an infinite number of causal planes exist. Some might contain your realization of your visualized future while others may not.

You have no proof that any will occurn in your causal plane, neither do you have a reference to base that proof. Therefore you do not know if that information (realization) holds true for your causal plane for all realized data.

So in this case you make up your mind about what your causal data will do for the t scalar (or coordinate rather) because that t scalar has not had a direction as of the time the realization was constructed, and the actual occurance happened. Its like writing a book.

However God knows the causal data for all universes, including your own. So from his perspective all data has been plotted. But from your perspective God is irrelavant because you cannot know for fact that He exists, therefore it is as if he doesnt exist (for all intents and purposes). So then his knowledge of your causal data cannot in any way affect you or your descisions (remember He irrelavant?).

So if you are unaffected by God, and your causal t scalar has yet to be plotted, you have free will to plot where the t goes. However God knows where you will put it.











So...Christians, is this how yu would reconcile free will and God's omniscience without using a trump?

quote:However God knows the causal data for all universes, including your own. So from his perspective all data has been plotted. But from your perspective God is irrelavant because you cannot know for fact that He exists, therefore it is as if he doesnt exist (for all intents and purposes). So then his knowledge of your causal data cannot in any way affect you or your descisions (remember He irrelavant?).

So if you are unaffected by God, and your causal t scalar has yet to be plotted, you have free will to plot where the t goes. However God knows where you will

Here lies once again the problem in your argument.

1. He COULD affect your decisions, even if you're not aware of it. Oedipus Rex serves as the example of this.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You not being aware of him existing does not mean that he does not exist.

2. His knowledge, which is what makes the future predetermined, is independent of you knowing he exists or not.

That is, he can know everything without you even knowing he exists.

3. If he CAN affect your decisions without you even knowing it, then he is not irrelevant.

God provided all the causes, so everything that has happened is what he wanted to happen. Everyone is just carrying out the resulting timeline that he had envisioned before creation. God is ultimately responsible for what happens and what we do because he made this universe where only such and such could have happened and we can only choose on choice with no possibility of the alternatives being chosen.

Adam and Eve had no choice in sinning because God had set it up knowing 100% that they would sin given the starting causes.

If I program a robot that goes out to kill someone, you would hold me responsible as I programmed it, right? The robot was only carrying out what I had envisioned that it would do. The robot could have only acted in one way based on the starting causes and condition.

However God knows the causal data for all universes, including your own. So from his perspective all data has been plotted. But from your perspective God is irrelavant because you cannot know for fact that He exists, therefore it is as if he doesnt exist (for all intents and purposes). So then his knowledge of your causal data cannot in any way affect you or your descisions (remember He irrelavant?).

The thing is, God doesn't just know the starting causes. He was the one who supplied them. He was the one that wound everything up before letting it go.

[This message has been edited by R_I (edited 04-07-2005).]

Why are youse bothering, Seriously we never get anywere with these threads...

To fully comprehend my argument, one must first agree that there exists some plane in this dimension (universe for all intents and purposes) thatcontains all information regarding the actions of all inhabitants of said dimension--this is called the causal plane. Also you must agree that there are an infinite number of universes.

I don't buy the infinite number of universes BS...no matter how many dimensions or planes, there is still just one UNIverse (the universe is ALL that exists, material or ethereal, at all times, in all dimensions, in all planes).

Guys, I don't think I'll ever get the courage to shave my balls.

Really.

I mean, shaving my chest was an easier decision to make, because my tattoo looks stupid with chest hair poking out of the spot that wasn't colored in.

But I keep staring at the bottom end of my happy trail, shaft covering in shaving cream like a carrot dipped in ranch dressing, razor buzzing in my hands, and I just... I just can't do it.

...

Oh, fuck, wrong forum.

Christianity can never truly accept an atemporally omniscient God because it would provide a hypocrisy in their belief. If God was, certainly, atemporally omniscient, then He would know, certainly, that Adam and Eve would sin. If He knew this, why would he not act? Why would his experiment be more important than that which it is claimed that he loves most? Most Christians blow this off with the "mysterious ways" routine, while others discredit atemporal omnicience. There is no other way.

EDIT: This works for other religions with an omniscient God that claims repsonsiblity for man's action, so I'm not picking on anyone here, but the msot clear example in our modern culture is with Christianity. Just wanted to clear that up before some yelling went down.

[This message has been edited by Gorloche (edited 04-07-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Gorloche:

Christianity can never truly accept an atemporally omniscient God because it would provide a hypocrisy in their belief. If God was, certainly, atemporally omniscient, then He would know, certainly, that Adam and Eve would sin. If He knew this, why would he not act? Why would his experiment be more important than that which it is claimed that he loves most? Most Christians blow this off with the "mysterious ways" routine, while others discredit atemporal omnicience. There is no other way.

EDIT: This works for other religions with an omniscient God that claims repsonsiblity for man's action, so I'm not picking on anyone here, but the msot clear example in our modern culture is with Christianity. Just wanted to clear that up before some yelling went down.



If this was an experiment, it wouldnt be to find out if man would sin, because he would know that they will. He would probably want to see what happens after we sin. Even then he knows what wil happen.

The only thing we can gather about the matter is that he created A&E for fellowship. Adam for fellowship with God, and Eve for fellowship with Adam (that isnt to say Eve had no fellowship with God). He gave them a choice to prove their devotion and love to him by presenting them a choice to either stay in contnual fellowship, or to decide t be independant and sin, thus losing fellowship.

If he had interfered his punishment that he told Adam long before all this would have not occured and that would be the same as God lying. And besides, you dont go to your kids and tell them everything will be alright after they break the neighbors window, you punish them for what they did.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Here lies once again the problem in your argument.

1. He COULD affect your decisions, even if you're not aware of it. Oedipus Rex serves as the example of this.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You not being aware of him existing does not mean that he does not exist.

2. His knowledge, which is what makes the future predetermined, is independent of you knowing he exists or not.

That is, he can know everything without you even knowing he exists.

3. If he CAN affect your decisions without you even knowing it, then he is not irrelevant.

First off i want us to try and keep ourselves from bickering, lets just have a calm debate http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

1:He can affect our descisions yes. No dispute, but that is only a possibility. Therefore you can negate it sometimes by choosing the opposite.

It isnt evidence of absense, but for all intents and purposes if no evidence is presented at your derivative on the causal plane, it doesnt matter. At some point, yes, some evidence may come into play. But you cant rewrite time, so if you dont have any evidence, your descisions will not be affected until there is some.

True, but then it still is irrelevant because i dont knw that, so it is as if my surrounding are shaping ones future, but still, you can negate that by choosing not to experience such.

I do wondder though, Oedipius could have commited suicide at any time during his prophecy and its fulfillment. So he had time to change his direction. To say that his fate was fixed because it happened leave out that his choices that he made might have taken him there. Plus, who is t say that the oracle did not intercept future data from his current causal plane? That would make everything true in all cases.

2: What you are saying here is self evident. But it has no bearing on my argument (as far as i can tell). But the knowledge that he has, (making our timeline predetermined) does not effect us. Therefore our timelines from our perspective is nt fixed. However what your saying about divine intervention is entirely valid. As such that imparts to you a limited amount of choices for your future, but you can negate his intervention and therefore it may be possible to set your life on the same course that it was. But that is not true for all cases (divine intervention that leaves you withut legs for instance).

quote:Originally posted by Gorloche:

Christianity can never truly accept an atemporally omniscient God because it would provide a hypocrisy in their belief. If God was, certainly, atemporally omniscient, then He would know, certainly, that Adam and Eve would sin. If He knew this, why would he not act? Why would his experiment be more important than that which it is claimed that he loves most? Most Christians blow this off with the "mysterious ways" routine, while others discredit atemporal omnicience. There is no other way.

EDIT: This works for other religions with an omniscient God that claims repsonsiblity for man's action, so I'm not picking on anyone here, but the msot clear example in our modern culture is with Christianity. Just wanted to clear that up before some yelling went down.



I don't chalk it up to "mysterious ways". *laughs*

God DID know that Adam and Eve would sin...just as He knew that He would destroy humanity with a flood.

It all happens for a reason...prophecies are fulfilled this way. Examples are made. Comparisons are presented.

We are better able to appreciate God's love and mercy NOW in our modern time, because of our understanding of the Bible THEN.

It had to happen as it did, and written in the order it was, so that it would mean what it does today.

I am sorry, but I cannot explain it any better than that.

No love for me? Is my reply too stupid or something?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I don't chalk it up to "mysterious ways". *laughs*

God DID know that Adam and Eve would sin...just as He knew that He would destroy humanity with a flood.

It all happens for a reason...prophecies are fulfilled this way. Examples are made. Comparisons are presented.

We are better able to appreciate God's love and mercy NOW in our modern time, because of our understanding of the Bible THEN.

It had to happen as it did, and written in the order it was, so that it would mean what it does today.

I am sorry, but I cannot explain it any better than that.

I know it's been said before, but I don't see how a god can be called merciful and loving while still doing that to the people he knows and loves. To say that it had to be that way or that it msut happen a certain way is to limit God, a supposedly omniscient being. That's like saying Jesus had to die and that there was no other way. There is, with one hundred percent certainty in my words, a better way than to condemn a race, provide ill reason for belief, and to compeltely alienate and thus condemn to damnation billions of people just so that the chosen few, which God knows will be saved, will come to him. There is, with one hundred percent certainty, a more jsut, merciful, and loving way to do save mankind. To say that something had to be done is to strip your God of his omniscience.

I remembered thinking up something similar to this in another post. Except that it went like this -- it didn't matter which universe you chose, because God would be in each of them saying that he predicted what you did, because each individual universe is predetermined. Of course, this would imply that you most likely the only soul in your own universe since everyone would be choosing their own universes, but it does seem to explain it...

And about the God being cruel thing, just read some of the Torah in the Brick Testament (http://www.thebricktestament.com) such as Exodus and The Wilderness. I read those the other day, and, wow... those Israelites sure believed in a mean God. It's no wonder some of the Christian-Gnostics said he was only a minor god (Yaldabaoth).

I agree with the Judaic feelings about God because they are more realistic of what a god would be like. Harsh, unpredictable. We actually would be fully under the image of God down to reactions, which is more believable. This isn't a complete idea, but that's only because I don't ahve a lot of time. I'll finish it when I can.

quote:Originally posted by Gorloche:

I agree with the Judaic feelings about God because they are more realistic of what a god would be like. Harsh, unpredictable. We actually would be fully under the image of God down to reactions, which is more believable. This isn't a complete idea, but that's only because I don't ahve a lot of time. I'll finish it when I can.

In Judaism, G-D creates both good & evil.