I have a few questions:

Is God all-loving? If so, why send people to hell?

Is God omniscient? If so, why allow Adam and Eve to bring pain upon themselves?

Is God omnipotent? If so, whe does He allow the suffering of children?

What of the evidence supporting evolution?

Why does a God who does not clearly demonstrate His existance punish those who do not assume it?

And please, no essay answers. No semantics. No ad-hominiem. No ambiguity.

they made it up as a means of control????



"religion is the opiate of the masses"

-karl marx

quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning:

Is God all-loving? If so, why send people to hell?

According to christianity? Yes. Why can't you punish loved ones? Parents punish their children. Why can't god punish his children?

quote:Is God omniscient? If so, why allow Adam and Eve to bring pain upon themselves?

You will have to ask God, because I sure as hell can't account for his supposed actions. This is also assuming that the Adam and Eve "parable" is true...

For the sake of your topic. God is omniscient. I don't see why he shouldn't have allowed Adam and Eve to bring pain upon themselves(again assuming that the Adam and Eve story is real).

quote:Is God omnipotent? If so, whe does He allow the suffering of children?

Yes. He is passively responsible for their suffering? Why is suffering always perceived as a bad thing? Aristotle believed that suffering brings one closer to God, and this was before christianity.

quote:What of the evidence supporting evolution?

Christians believe in evolution. I don't know where this perception that christians are all old testament straight to the book creationists started, but it is wrong. If one were to infer from genesis, one could come to conclusion that God initiated evolution. Creation and evolution can co-exist.

quote:Why does a God who does not clearly demonstrate His existance punish those who do not assume it?

Faith. For one to believe in God one must have faith. Faith is not something that is black and white clear. One has to discover their faith themselves. God cannot make someone have faith. If you choose not to accept God, and God exists, why is he to blame for your lack of faith?

quote:And please, no essay answers. No semantics. No ad-hominiem. No ambiguity.

That's really asking a lot in a religion forum. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning:

I have a few questions:

Is God all-loving? If so, why send people to hell?

Their choices to sin lead them to hell

Is God omniscient? If so, why allow Adam and Eve to bring pain upon themselves?

He gave them the opportunity to choose to love him for all eternity or to disobey him and eat of the tree. It was a test of their love for him.

Is God omnipotent? If so, whe does He allow the suffering of children?

I fail to see what omnipotence and starving children have in common but whatever. You have to realize that its probably because their ancestors were sinners and their sin brought that on them. Of course thats only a simple answer

What of the evidence supporting evolution?

There isnt much logically sound evidence for evolution that cannot also be supportive of creation.

Why does a God who does not clearly demonstrate His existance punish those who do not assume it?

Just wait a few more years...

And please, no essay answers. No semantics. No ad-hominiem. No ambiguity.[/B]

Isnt hell meant to be separation from God?

If you do not accept his gift of heaven, they he cant do anything about it.

Maybe there is divine intervention in there somewhere for 'lost sheep' to put them back on track.

Not according to scripture. When you die your dead. No second chances. But your definition of the concept of the hell of today is correct.

Is God all-loving? If so, why send people to hell?

Try equating god with a idealist parent. They create and guide, but let you choose and fall. Back you up when you can't continue. But regardless of the love and support, you need to pay for what you do wrong.

Is God omniscient? If so, why allow Adam and Eve to bring pain upon themselves?

Same as the question before. You can only do so much, free will does the rest.

Is God omnipotent? If so, whe does He allow the suffering of children?

God is more of a guide than anything from how I see it. One poem quote goes "why when I needed you most there was only one set of footprints in the sand. ...Because god was carrying you..." Something like that. Footprints in the sand I think. It seems harsh to not interfere, that's not how it works I guess.

What of the evidence supporting evolution?

Which evolution story though?

My responces are slighlty ambiguous I guess, best I can do.

quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning:

I have a few questions:

Is God all-loving? If so, why send people to hell?

Is God omniscient? If so, why allow Adam and Eve to bring pain upon themselves?

Is God omnipotent? If so, whe does He allow the suffering of children?

What of the evidence supporting evolution?

Why does a God who does not clearly demonstrate His existance punish those who do not assume it?

And please, no essay answers. No semantics. No ad-hominiem. No ambiguity.

im not christian, but i can answer all of your questions.

1.people go to hell because they must be 'cleansed in the blood of the lamb'. if not, they cannot experience god because they have rejected him. hell is simply the absence of the presence of god(in christian belief)

2.what does an omnipotent god have to do with the first sin? yes, it seems an omnipotent god would know they would disobey him, but why would this prevent him from giving them the choice? kind of matrix-esque. the problem i always had was: why does god wonder around the god calling for them? if god is really omnipotent, shouldn't he have known that they had betrayed him? shouldn't he have known before hand? this can be worked around with a multiple-universe theory.

3. you are assuming suffering is bad. negative input is needed for any system to grow.

4.evolution and creation can co-exist. why can't an eternal and timeless 'god' create through evolution?

5. i don't know. possibly faith is more important than you think...mabye fairies only exist if you believe in them? think about quantu

OK, so we assume God is omniscient, and omnipotent.

God, being omniscient, already knows the path everything will take, the choices everyone will make, the results of these choices, the reasoning for them, the way everything will end up. Everything. You name it, he knows it.

God, being omnipotent, can make the universe exist in any manner he sees fit. With his omniscience, he knows exactly how any given manner of existence will play out, and all the choices and consequences of those he creates.

Therefore, the manner in which God creates the universe determines the choices and actions of all individuals, and the rest of existence. God knows this, therefore existence must exist and occur precisely how God wants.



Conversely, if the will of God is what is claimed by any given religion, then God cannot possibly be omnipotent and omniscient.

[This message has been edited by zorro420 (edited 04-15-2005).]

quote:it seems an omnipotent god would know they would disobey him

quote:if god is really omnipotent, shouldn't he have known that they had betrayed him? shouldn't he have known before hand?

Omnipotent is all powerful, i believe you meant to say omniscient (all knowing).

quote:You have to realize that its probably because their ancestors were sinners and their sin brought that on them.

Haha.

quote: Their choices to sin lead them to hell

quote: He gave them the opportunity to choose

quote:You can only do so much, free will does the rest.

Determinism.

quote: I fail to see what omnipotence and starving children have in common

If god is omnipotent he could stop the suffering. If god is omnibenevolent he would stop the suffering. There is suffering in innocent children, hence go figure...

ok, look. one thing I've learned about religion is this: Don't fucking argue with it! as you can see they can ALWAYS come up with some bullshit to support their belief. They can believe whatever crazy shit they want, I don't give a shit, but don't ask them questions and if you do don't expect a clear cut or even a logical answer. it goes like this: believe in god or don't. I don't because it's logical in my mind, they do because it's logical in their mind. non-believers will never convert because we know the bible is full of shit, believers will forever place their faith in an ancient book that was written by people even stupider than us. but i've already taken up enough space, have fun looking at more bullshit answers to yuor inquery!

quote:Originally posted by Kiefer:

non-believers will never convert because we know the bible is full of shit, believers will forever place their faith in an ancient book that was written by people even stupider than us

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

It blows my mind that there are people who actually believe in "hell". A place full of fire and pain where you suffer for eternity. I have some news for those folks. This IS hell. We are in it right now. This is it. THIS is the heavy, dense, dark place full of pain and suffering, and at the same time, it is beautiful and seductive. FACT: When your body dies, if you do not chose to ascend to what you might call "heaven", you will just be reincarnated here. A lot of people are doomed to be reincarnated over and over and over because they are so seduced and hypnotized by this physical universe that they don't realize that there is an alternative. Thus, the only way you will spend an eternity in hell is if you choose to be reincarnated forever, over and over again.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Not according to scripture. When you die your dead. No second chances. But your definition of the concept of the hell of today is correct.



damn,someone has actually read the bloody book http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) well done.

Christianity is wrong.

Most were awnsered pretty well, so I'll take this one on.

quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning:

What of the evidence supporting evolution?

Evolution did happen, there is no doubt about that. Look at Genesis. How earth and life were created pretty much coensides with the theory of evolution. Also, Adam and Eve were the first "animals" to have souls. You will read that Adam figures out that he is special (God breathed life into him) when he is naming the animals. So evolution did happen, but nothing before Adam and Eve had souls.

First off, this is not an honest person looking for honest answers....lets not kid each other! These questions are really "Cheap Shots", Im willing to bet this dude hasnt spent 5 minutes searching a Bible for these answers.... This is not a persuit of knowledge but an excuse to sin with a clear concsience!

quote:Is God all-loving? If so, why send people to hell?

Answer: God is an all loving God...He proved that by sending his only Son to die for you and me. However, GOd is a HOLY God, which means he can NOT let Sin into his presence. If you dont get the SIN thing fixed, God has no choice but to send you to Hell, despite his best efforts.



quote:Is God omniscient? If so, why allow Adam and Eve to bring pain upon themselves?

Answer: Because, God is permissive. He isnt gonna force you to do right.

quote:Is God omnipotent? If so, whe does He allow the suffering of children?

Answer: From his stand point, this is our mess...we made this world the way it is by sinning against him (adam and eve). Just because he allows it does not make him guilty of anything. Besides, he has appointed a day when he will take vengence on all the evil works ever committed...all in his time!

quote:What of the evidence supporting evolution?

What evidence...? Wouldnt be a theory if it had evidence...or provable. Evolution is a Religion passed off as a Science.

quote:Why does a God who does not clearly demonstrate His existance punish those who do not assume it?

God and the Bible are a REVELATION. God only reveals himself when and how he chooses, hence the proverb "God is not the subject of Research but of Revelation"

quote:Originally posted by ollo:

FACT: When your body dies, if you do not chose to ascend to what you might call "heaven", you will just be reincarnated here.

AHEM... you mean,

BELIEF:

or,

THEORY:

[This message has been edited by joecaveman (edited 04-16-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Sniper Piper:

Answer: God is an all loving God...He proved that by sending his only Son to die for you and me. However, GOd is a HOLY God, which means he can NOT let Sin into his presence. If you dont get the SIN thing fixed, God has no choice but to send you to Hell, despite his best efforts.



If he cannot be in the presence of sin then he is not all powerfull, which then refutes this Christian tenet.

He MUST be able to be in the presence of sin, which then shows how he deliberately sends you to hell, and thus the question still stands.

quote:Answer: From his stand point, this is our mess...we made this world the way it is by sinning against him (adam and eve). Just because he allows it does not make him guilty of anything. Besides, he has appointed a day when he will take vengence on all the evil works ever committed...all in his time!

It being "our mess" or not does not refute that he deliberately allows for the existence of suffering, when he must not if he is to be an all-loving being.

quote:What evidence...? Wouldnt be a theory if it had evidence...or provable. Evolution is a Religion passed off as a Science.

Obviously you have no clue what a theory is, not what evolution is.

quote:God and the Bible are a REVELATION. God only reveals himself when and how he chooses, hence the proverb "God is not the subject of Research but of Revelation"

The question still stands. Why doesn't he "reveal himself" to everyone?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

If he cannot be in the presence of sin then he is not all powerfull, which then refutes this Christian tenet.

This is "power" according to Rust, right ?

He is perfectly "good", which means He cannot withstand the presence evil.

But He knows what to do with it, and He created it, so...(it is not as if He will implode upon contact ! *lol* Evil is painful to Him. He was in the presence of Lucifer when he rebelled against God, and God handled it just fine. If anything, it is a CHOICE for Him, not an inability.)

I don't see how that takes away His power.

You are thinking of "power" by man's definition. I don't know how many times I have to point this out, but you can't apply human definitions to God. You can come close, but you will never hit the target.

And Rust, God reveals Himself to everyone, but in His way, in His own time, when the recipient is ready.

This is why people that are at the end of themselves are able to "receive" Him more often than people that are not. When you are heartbroken, and cannot hold yourself up any longer, God speaks.

This is a perfect analogy of God's scripture that commands us to be as children...open, ready, and willing to receive Him.

He is there, always. He knows what you need, and when you will be ready to receive it.

Some people never become ready. They choose themselves over God. This does not mean He hasn't revealed Himself.