Can you view it anywhere?

This is sort of a debate opener on its validity, but id like to see it for myself first.

Thanks.

I didn't know that such a thing is available anywhere. This would be an interesting discussion. What is it supposed to say that is different from the known gospels?

The best online source for early christian-related documents IMO is here:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

Note that some of the datings provided by this sight aren't "gospel" (bad pun) but do provide a rough guide as to how some scholars would date the texts, but this is very debateable.

Where they found the dead sea scrolls, there was one among them.

This was written in Aramaic, the languae spoken by Jesus himself.

This gospel was written either by one of his disciples or himself.

A famous supposed line is "Split wood, I am there. Lift up a rock, you will find me there."

It basically means there is no need for a church (not quite as harsh as that, they do have their uses) and that people should not let institutions of man made creation be the 'middle man' (best I could come up with) between them and God.

Edit: need to fix this keyboard...

[This message has been edited by l337 (edited 04-08-2005).]

jesus never existed, so anything you would find on the subject would be historical fiction. prove me wrong. please.

There are many many proofs.

Records found in censi from then, peoples writings, scriptures and tablatures etc.

All historicaly and scientificaly proven.

quote:Originally posted by l337:

There are many many proofs.

Records found in censi from then, peoples writings, scriptures and tablatures etc.

All historicaly and scientificaly proven.



no

Your an idiot.

quote:Originally posted by l337:

Where they found the dead sea scrolls, there was one among them.

This was written in Aramaic, the languae spoken by Jesus himself.

This gospel was written either by one of his disciples or himself.

A famous supposed line is "Split wood, I am there. Lift up a rock, you will find me there."

It basically means there is no need for a church (not quite as harsh as that, they do have their uses) and that people should not let institutions of man made creation be the 'middle man' (best I could come up with) between them and God.

Edit: need to fix this keyboard...

.........................

"Split wood, I am there. Lift up a rock, you will find me there."

hey,..i saw this movie,..stigmata

Just looked up some sources, and so it is.

Theres meant to be other writings though.

Maybe that one I just saw on a random site, cause ive just seen this: http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/hiddengospel.htm

quote:Originally posted by l337:

Where they found the dead sea scrolls, there was one among them.

This was written in Aramaic, the languae spoken by Jesus himself.

This gospel was written either by one of his disciples or himself.

A famous supposed line is "Split wood, I am there. Lift up a rock, you will find me there."

It basically means there is no need for a church (not quite as harsh as that, they do have their uses) and that people should not let institutions of man made creation be the 'middle man' (best I could come up with) between them and God.

Edit: need to fix this keyboard...





I don't see any difference with what Jesus already says in the New Testament.

You have any examples out of interest?

quote:Originally posted by l337:

You have any examples out of interest?

Matthew 6.6

God is present everywhere and will hear your prayer in the remote room. A "place of worship" like a church has no value for God.

John 4.21-24

God is to be worshipped spiritually, and the "where" is not important.

Generally, Jesus always encouraged a personal relationship with God and criticized priests, the "middle men". I think this gospel of Jesus can't be more "revolutionary" than the gospels we already have. We just need to look at them seriously.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Matthew 6.6

God is present everywhere and will hear your prayer in the remote room. A "place of worship" like a church has no value for God.

John 4.21-24

God is to be worshipped spiritually, and the "where" is not important.

Generally, Jesus always encouraged a personal relationship with God and criticized priests, the "middle men". I think this gospel of Jesus can't be more "revolutionary" than the gospels we already have. We just need to look at them seriously.

"A "place of worship" like a church has no value for God."

How did you come to this conclusion from Matthew 6:6?

"Generally, Jesus always encouraged a personal relationship with God and criticized priests, the "middle men"."

This is not completly true - Jesus spoke out against the legalistic religious leaders of the time that lorded the word of God over others. Your generalized statement is dangerous because your saying that Jesus taught that we should not gather into public worship nor should we have leaders to provide the order for that worship.

For clarity in case I misunderstood you, is that what you meant?

quote:Originally posted by Sig_Intel:

"A "place of worship" like a church has no value for God."

How did you come to this conclusion from Matthew 6:6?

"Generally, Jesus always encouraged a personal relationship with God and criticized priests, the "middle men"."

This is not completly true - Jesus spoke out against the legalistic religious leaders of the time that lorded the word of God over others. Your generalized statement is dangerous because your saying that Jesus taught that we should not gather into public worship nor should we have leaders to provide the order for that worship.

For clarity in case I misunderstood you, is that what you meant?





Yes that is what I mean. In Matthew 6.6 Jesus is clearly against public worship. I'd like to see the passage where Jesus talks about "leaders" that provide order for worship. The notion that you would need someone other than Jesus to "lead" you in your relation with God is ridiculous and even suspicious.

Alot of the Jesus Seminar material, esp. that of Jon Dominic Crossan places the "brokerless dominion of God" as one of the key aspects of Jesus' teaching. i.e. that the God, and coming kingdom of God, was one where no human mediator was needed, and that direct communion with God could exist.

What ive just outlined sounds alot like what Jesus was actually saying but is probably a misrepresentation of Crossan's work, as it actually says something significantly different... but i cant quite remember it.

quote:Originally posted by impact-:

jesus never existed, so anything you would find on the subject would be historical fiction. prove me wrong. please.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I guess I am not really understanding what the original poster is getting at.

Are you saying that there is a gospel that Jesus "wrote" himself, or ??

You might want to read about the Gospel of Thomas, it's supposedly the closest thing to a gospel of Jesus that you'll find. It's a collection of what are supposed to be his sayings, and has a lot to do with the belief that the Kingdom of God is already on Earth, if you can learn to see it that way.

If you saw the film Stigmata and remember the line The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift a stone and you will find me. These are the hidden sayings that the living Jesus spoke. Whoever discovers the meaning of these sayings shall not taste death., it is basically a bunch of lines that they took from the Gospel of Thomas and stuck together.

The main difference between the regular gospels you've heard of, is that the canonical Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in the Bible) focus on the story of Christ's life, while the Gospel of Thomas (which happens to be one of 20 gospels that didn't make it into the Bible) focuses on things that Christ was supposed to have actually said. The reason why the Church isn't particularly fond of it is because the gospel is highly mystical, and talks about how you should experience God directly, without any intermediate thing like the Church. Personally I think that's right on, but then I also think that magic mushrooms are a way to go about doing that. Another main difference is that the gospels that the Church likes preach that man is originally sinful, and salvation is just salvation from going to hell for the slimy little bastard that you really are. The Gospel of Thomas on the other hand says that salvation is kind of like enlightenment, and is about realising that your true identity is actually divine.

Does anybody else think that a Church which tells you that you're not really divine but actually a cunt, there's something a little fucked up about that?

Anyway, there are places on the net you can read more about the Gospel of Thomas, here's a good site or two you might like. This one has the gospel along with modern interpretations of what it means, and the original Coptic and Greek text just for the hell of it: http://www.gospelthomas.com/

That site has a lot of information in it though, if you just want the bare bones of what the gospel said, try this instead: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/thomas.htm

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I guess I am not really understanding what the original poster is getting at.

Are you saying that there is a gospel that Jesus "wrote" himself, or ??

ImperfectCircles reply was pretty much what I was after. Any sort of scripture or 'gospels' written while Jesus was still alive or are believed to be his exact wordings.

there are several gospels...i am not going to be very accurate because it was a long time ago that i came across them.

there is the gospel of christ.

there is the gospel of mary.

and a very popular one which is the gospel of st thomas.

basically some think they are kept quiet...and not taken seriously by the church...because they will rock the foundations of a church that has been built on manipulation and deceit for many years.

its like this.....apparently none of the gospels were actually written by the disciples....naming them mathew mark etc.....is just manipulaiton

..

the content of the gospels has been vetted by the church.

and the bible is just a select few papers on christian literature....and it was not god or jesus who selected the bibles contentss.....it was a manipulative church.......there is much more out there.....

but a lot of the stuff out there seems to contradict the current bible.......

the nag hamadid literature....ie the gospel of jesus and thomas and mary .......seem to have a buddhist philosophy.

it seems if you read them that jesus was a buddhist.

i believe they talk of things like reincarnationl.......etc....so you can see why they are dangerous to the church.

there are many many more such documents....some of them are missing great passages ....others not so.

in the gospel of thomas .....jesus asked the disciples what he was like...one said like a righteous angel ......another said a wise man of understanding.......thomas said,...my mouth is not capable of describing what thou art....

jesus took thomas away....and told him 3 things....

when thomas came back the other disciples said what did he say to you.

thomas answered......if i told you one of the words he said to me....

you would pick up stones and stone me.

and fire would come from the stones and burn you up.

jesus also said .........if they say to you .from where did you originate...say to them........

we have come from the light where the light originated through itself.

if they ask you.....what is the sign o fyour father in you ........say to them ......it is a movement and a rest.



simon peter said unto them

let mary go out from amongst us......because women are not worthy of the life

jesus said.

see i shall lead her ...so that i will make her male....that she too may become aliving spirit resembling you males ........for every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom.

another thing in st thomas was this.

his disciples said unto him.

when will the repose of the dead come abut and when will the new world come....

jesus said to them.......what you expect has come .....but you know it not.

his disciples said to him....24 prophets spoke in israel and they all spoke about thee.

jesus said......

you have dimissed the living one who is amongst you......and you have spoken about the dead....i have cast a fire upon the world and see....i guard the world until itis afire.



antoher thing....

jesus said let him who seeks ....not cease seeking until he finds......

and when he finds he will be troubled.

he will marvel and he will reign over all.

whoever finds explanation to these words will not taste death.

For the second time,

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

Has most of the extrabiblical documents that are relavent here.

Here's something I think is funny.

Jesus was talking about praying

to god, and he said you should go

somewhere quiet and talk to god

by yourself.

He said NOT to pray out loud,

to impress other people, or

to chant prayers over and over

like the pagans did, thinking

that all their words would help them.

Then he gives an example of how

he talks to god:

And now, christians chant that prayer,

over and over, out loud, like pagans.

It's called the "Lord's Prayer".

And a few sentences before it

in the bible, he is saying to

NOT do exactly that.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

You might want to read about the Gospel of Thomas, it's supposedly the closest thing to a gospel of Jesus that you'll find. It's a collection of what are supposed to be his sayings, and has a lot to do with the belief that the Kingdom of God is already on Earth, if you can learn to see it that way.

If you saw the film Stigmata and remember the line The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift a stone and you will find me. These are the hidden sayings that the living Jesus spoke. Whoever discovers the meaning of these sayings shall not taste death., it is basically a bunch of lines that they took from the Gospel of Thomas and stuck together.

The main difference between the regular gospels you've heard of, is that the canonical Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in the Bible) focus on the story of Christ's life, while the Gospel of Thomas (which happens to be one of 20 gospels that didn't make it into the Bible) focuses on things that Christ was supposed to have actually said. The reason why the Church isn't particularly fond of it is because the gospel is highly mystical, and talks about how you should experience God directly, without any intermediate thing like the Church. Personally I think that's right on, but then I also think that magic mushrooms are a way to go about doing that. Another main difference is that the gospels that the Church likes preach that man is originally sinful, and salvation is just salvation from going to hell for the slimy little bastard that you really are. The Gospel of Thomas on the other hand says that salvation is kind of like enlightenment, and is about realising that your true identity is actually divine.

Does anybody else think that a Church which tells you that you're not really divine but actually a cunt, there's something a little fucked up about that?

Anyway, there are places on the net you can read more about the Gospel of Thomas, here's a good site or two you might like. This one has the gospel along with modern interpretations of what it means, and the original Coptic and Greek text just for the hell of it: http://www.gospelthomas.com/

That site has a lot of information in it though, if you just want the bare bones of what the gospel said, try this instead: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/thomas.htm

Your post reminds me of something I said awhile ago: "I feel sorry for anyone who follows a religion that tells them they are anything less than perfect."

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

For the second time,

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

Has most of the extrabiblical documents that are relavent here.

Well,going through all of those trying to find one or two paragraphs I want, would be a waste of time.

Others who said "Thomas' Gospel" was much more helpful.

Thanks for saving me a few hours.

No worries. Just thought you might like a decent source of info.