We know nothing about a god.

Only the stories that men have put into religions and that’s why I don’t follow a religion.

Because I don’t know anything of a god I don’t go and waste my time on speculating on its existence. I’m only placing the slightest possibility of some sort of god in the corner of my brain because in general we don’t know anything at this point in time. Our reality could hide behind an altar form to surreal for words and understanding, or not?

But because we are in this reality with the given opportunity to seek knowledge ourselves instead of holding on to ancient primitive beliefs I only concern myself with seeking knowledge and looking for real answers.

Stop pretending to know what god is and stop hiding behind your religious establishment. If you want answers than stop standing still, answers won’t come just by reading a bible.

Find answers through science.

If you people are convinced god created the universe isn’t it logic that you will find answers by unraveling the universe. You will probably find that the god you praise is a whole lot different than any religion describes him on earth.

It’s not my view that there is a god but if you’re not afraid from the truth start looking forward instead of backwards.

Oh yes! Forsake God for science, how moronic. At least God's word is the same, today, yesterday, and forever. Science offers you theories and you accept them. My goodness! People there isn't much time left before the return of Christ, quit beating yourself up with question, if someone loves you, don't question it, accept it! Science EXPLAINS the bible, and we're only going to know what God wants us to know anyways. You want a sign? Then read the bible. This last sign coming is Christ, and then it's a little late. How can you stand for God when they'll behead you, if you can't stand for him now? I'll quit preaching! He is coming back though. "When you see these signs know the the end of time is near." "I'll pour my spirit out upon the world." So many people I know, Have Given their lives to God! That's another sign!! Wow! How can people over-look what's right in front of their face? I'll really stop now. I'm getting an anxiety attack!



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 04-09-2005).]

You only reacted to some of my opinions? I like to hear your view on all of them since you’re so convinced about what you are saying.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

At least God's word is the same, today, yesterday, and forever.

You won’t get any answers that way. I can see that it’s a comfort for you that at least there is something that stays the same but it doesn’t seem healthy to blindly follow biblical words written in a book and take them as God’s words without even considering the possibility that it are words of made up experiences.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Science offers you theories and you accept them. My goodness!

Yes! Unravel the entire universe and you shall unravel god for he is the creator of the universe. I made that up but doesn’t that make sense to you.

I don’t think a god created a universe but if religious people aren’t afraid for the truth I think it wise they focus more on science.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

People there isn't much time left before the return of Christ

Exactly what I mean, you people are wasting your time but you probably don’t want to understand this.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Quit beating yourself up with question

The first step to ignorance! A good way to keep the masses under control.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

If someone loves you, don't question it, accept it!

Yes if people love you, noticeable by human contact, that’s good.

But getting love from a god is nothing more than fictional preaching.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Science EXPLAINS the bible and we're only going to know what God wants us to know anyways. You want a sign? Then read the bible. This last sign coming is Christ, and then it's a little late. How can you stand for God when they'll behead you, if you can't stand for him now? I'll quit preaching! He is coming back though. "When you see these signs know the the end of time is near." "I'll pour my spirit out upon the world." So many people I know, Have Given their lives to God! That's another sign!! Wow! How can people over-look what's right in front of their face?

Okay quotes from the bible and you’re making me believe you a religious extremist. You are quoting some words from the bible it really doesn’t hold any truth in my eyes because they prove nothing.

Call me a bible extremeist, call me a Jesus freak, it doesn't matter much to me. I've been in your shoes, and I'd much rather be called anything but an atheist. Question what you will, but don't just accept science, look into science, what is says, what's unclear, then look into the bible. You'll find.. that science doesn't DISPROVE God.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Call me a bible extremeist, call me a Jesus freak, it doesn't matter much to me. I've been in your shoes, and I'd much rather be called anything but an atheist. Question what you will, but don't just accept science, look into science, what is says, what's unclear, then look into the bible. You'll find.. that science doesn't DISPROVE God.

Could you please read my first post and my second one with some concentration?

Anyways it seems you can't handle the fact that some questions won't get an answer for a long time, I'm talking about science. It's a slow evolution but if you don't have the patience just make up answers, in your case you found the bible good for you.

I see your not the person that can go in a debate and your obviously too blinded to reply to my opinions. You’re just giving vague replies so lets leave it with this ok.

quote:Originally posted by Donny Darko:

We know nothing about a god.

To know something about life is to know something about god. Are you saying that you don't know anything?

If so, why create a post?

quote:Originally posted by Donny Darko:

Only the stories that men have put into religions and that’s why I don’t follow a religion.



Wisdom doesn't just come from a book. It comes from experience.

quote:Originally posted by Donny Darko:

But because we are in this reality with the given opportunity to seek knowledge ourselves instead of holding on to ancient primitive beliefs I only concern myself with seeking knowledge and looking for real answers.



Primitive beliefs and modern beliefs can help you to realise certain things that otherwise might have taken you a lot longer.

quote:Originally posted by Donny Darko:



Find answers through science.



If you're talking about science books, they are also based on other people's beliefs. They may be wrong too, but like religeous books, they can help you make realisations of your own.

It's good to listen to popular opinion in terms of science and religeon, but what you believe is always your call.

I did read it. Because I didn't reply to it says I don't agree with it, so I ignored it. Science doesn't answer everything. The bible tells us what God wants us to know. God allows science to know as much as he wants it to know. If you'd look into both, the bible and science, you'll see that science Only proves God existence even more. Satisified? You're obviously judgemental.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

To know something about life is to know something about god. Are you saying that you don't know anything?

If so, why create a post?

I meant we have no proof of an existing god.

I know about life and I know about science.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Wisdom doesn't just come from a book. It comes from experience

I know that, but experience doesn’t prove God.



quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Primitive beliefs and modern beliefs can help you to realise certain things that otherwise might have taken you a lot longer.

Yes, maybe lessons in life but not lessons in God.

More people have died in the name of God than any other conflicts so don’t be too quick with taping religion to wisdom and realization.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

If you're talking about science books, they are also based on other people's beliefs. They may be wrong too, but like religeous books, they can help you make realisations of your own.

They are not proved on other peoples beliefs. Science proves the structure of our reality with accurate precision and logic.

Religion doesn’t prove the existence of a God, it does not run parallel with our reality and there isn’t even any proof of it. Maybe science will even it out that was the meaning of my post.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

It's good to listen to popular opinion in terms of science and religeon, but what you believe is always your call.

True

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I did read it. Because I didn't reply to it says I don't agree with it, so I ignored it. Science doesn't answer everything. The bible tells us what God wants us to know. God allows science to know as much as he wants it to know. If you'd look into both, the bible and science, you'll see that science Only proves God existence even more. Satisified? You're obviously judgemental.



Well it's always interesting to hear why you disagree, can you counter your disagreements with substance?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I'd much rather be called anything but an atheist

You're obviously judgemental.

[This message has been edited by Donny Darko (edited 04-09-2005).]

Kudos DD

Appreciated Beany

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Oh yes! Forsake God for science, how moronic. At least God's word is the same, today, yesterday, and forever.

Rabis, Preists and other clergy have been changing God's word for thousands of years. By allowing some stories to be copied and letting others fade into obscurity they shape the way people veiw God.

Spirituality is full of unanswerable questions.: If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to see it, does it make a sound? Questions you can't answer with logic, fact, or even rational.

That's why they call it believing and not knowing.

Cheers,

Lost

Then will it please you, LostCause, for me to say I KNOW in God? Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. I know without a single doubt God is there, and his word is true. I just can't figure out how to get the world to realize that. I was once like them, but I found my faith in a different way. I'm not sure everyone can find faith in the same way.

Donny, I simply do not agree, why do I need to explain why when you're not willing to hear me out or even listen. That would be absurd. Would you talk to a tree? Would you run into a brick wall when you know it will resist? No.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

Spirituality is full of unanswerable questions.: If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to see it, does it make a sound? Questions you can't answer with logic, fact, or even rational.



Well what you are doing is placing the human being in a center position.

It makes a sound for those who can register sound.

The falling tree will provide the energy that releases sound even if no one is present at the event.

So for self aware life forms that sound never took place but the natural powers were at work none the less.



That’s how far I can answer that question but I see how you can look at it from different perspectives.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Donny, I simply do not agree, why do I need to explain why when you're not willing to hear me out or even listen. That would be absurd. Would you talk to a tree? Would you run into a brick wall when you know it will resist? No.



I did hear you out and I answered.

You disagreed with my answers and I would appreciate to know why you don't agree.

We don't have to agree with each other but we can compare our two views better if you gave more substance to your disagreements.

Despite popular beleif, maths is as full of holes as the bible. The basic building blocks of modern science don't even work scientificaly, things like distance and time really have no evidence in a solid form. All things require faith, I no longer beleive its a matter of beleiving in whats true and proven, but rather exactly what you want to beleive. Alot of things aren't true, in fact are obviously make beleive, but its benificial to have faith in them none the less. Things like karma, the human spirit, honor.

So far as christianity goes, I often beleive in something, even when I know it is unproven or even proven wrong, I accept it as the truth. I can hold multiple contradictory beleifs simultaneously, and accept them all equally. I can act on an urge, with full knowledge that the consequences will be more than its worth, and do so without worry. And I still don't want to be a christian.

quote:Originally posted by Donny Darko:



Well what you are doing is placing the human being in a center position.

It makes a sound for those who can register sound.

The falling tree will provide the energy that releases sound even if no one is present at the event.

So for self aware life forms that sound never took place but the natural powers were at work none the less.



That’s how far I can answer that question but I see how you can look at it from different perspectives.



Alright, I wasn't actually applying that particular question to spirituality. I was using it as an example of a question that can't be answered through logic. It's purpose as a question isn't for the answer, the purpose of the question is just that it exists. Geez, I've been talking about Dadas way too much lately... Goddamn Russian literature, it's just so damn good...

Anyways, my point is you can apply logic to something that's illogical, such as faith. Despite what HellzShellz says all faith is blind. Otherwise, it wouldn't be faith, it would be knowing.

I don't doubt how strong your belief is, Hellz. In fact, I believe in god myself, but there is no way of actually knowing. And if there was a way of actually knowing it would lose it's meaning. I mean, if we knew, it would be just like knowing the sky exists.: Another all encompassing thing that is incomprehensively vast and that we simply live within and at the whims of.

Nobody questions the sky. Nobody questions why it's there, simply because it is there. There's no sense in asking questions like that. This is where god and the sky differ. While the sky can be proven, the existence of god cannot, which gives the question of it's existence purpose.

There is no answer, just the question. And what answer is worth more than it's question anyways? God power lies in the question of him. The faith of those who believe in him without knowing for sure, but believing because they feel it.

I can't go on like this, I have to get to work.

Cheers,

Lost

LostCause: Alright, I wasn't actually applying that particular question to spirituality. I was using it as an example of a question that can't be answered through logic. It's purpose as a question isn't for the answer, the purpose of the question is just that it exists.

As Dagnabitt said earlier, its purpose it to contrast two definitions of "sound" that are normally used together. Is sound a longitudal compression wave of molecules, or is it the stimulation we get from that wave?

It would probably be better to give a sophism instead. For example:

A slim crocodile living in Nile took a child. The mother begged the crocodile to give him back. The crocodile could not only talk, he was also a great sophist, and so he stated: "If you guess what I will do with him, I will return him. However, if you don't guess his fate I'll eat him." What statement shall the mother make to save her child?

Paradoxes are a real stumbling point when it comes to logic. Another one that I'm really wondering about is -- "is it possible for everything to be possible?" Think about it. If everything were possible, then it would be impossible for something to be impossible.

Here's (http://hlavolamy.szm.sk/brainteasers/paradoxes.htm) the page I got the sophism from.

GJ Donny, nice post n debate skill.

Clarphimous, there's one thing that is certainly impossible: nothing existing. Sure, the self may be the only real thing...but that alone proves existence of something, negating the possibility of no existence in any form at all.

quote:Originally posted by Donny Darko:

We know nothing about a god.

Only the stories that men have put into religions and that’s why I don’t follow a religion.

Because I don’t know anything of a god I don’t go and waste my time on speculating on its existence. I’m only placing the slightest possibility of some sort of god in the corner of my brain because in general we don’t know anything at this point in time. Our reality could hide behind an altar form to surreal for words and understanding, or not?

But because we are in this reality with the given opportunity to seek knowledge ourselves instead of holding on to ancient primitive beliefs I only concern myself with seeking knowledge and looking for real answers.

Stop pretending to know what god is and stop hiding behind your religious establishment. If you want answers than stop standing still, answers won’t come just by reading a bible.

Find answers through science.

If you people are convinced god created the universe isn’t it logic that you will find answers by unraveling the universe. You will probably find that the god you praise is a whole lot different than any religion describes him on earth.

It’s not my view that there is a god but if you’re not afraid from the truth start looking forward instead of backwards.

Scientific proof of God (http://proof-of-god.freewebsitehosting.com/Hammond5s1.html)

quote:Originally posted by Donny Darko:

We know nothing about a god.

Only the stories that men have put into religions and that’s why I don’t follow a religion.

Because I don’t know anything of a god I don’t go and waste my time on speculating on its existence. I’m only placing the slightest possibility of some sort of god in the corner of my brain because in general we don’t know anything at this point in time. Our reality could hide behind an altar form to surreal for words and understanding, or not?

But because we are in this reality with the given opportunity to seek knowledge ourselves instead of holding on to ancient primitive beliefs I only concern myself with seeking knowledge and looking for real answers.

Stop pretending to know what god is and stop hiding behind your religious establishment. If you want answers than stop standing still, answers won’t come just by reading a bible.

Find answers through science.

If you people are convinced god created the universe isn’t it logic that you will find answers by unraveling the universe. You will probably find that the god you praise is a whole lot different than any religion describes him on earth.

It’s not my view that there is a god but if you’re not afraid from the truth start looking forward instead of backwards.

If man is to find god through science, and science will not be able to do so for hundreds more years, doesnt it seem logical that if people follow your example alot of them are going to hell if religion IS correct?

Also, if i were to dismantle an artificial germ (artificial lifeform), what in the world would it tell me about the man who made it? Nothing...

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

If man is to find god through science, and science will not be able to do so for hundreds more years, doesnt it seem logical that if people follow your example alot of them are going to hell if religion IS correct?

Also, if i were to dismantle an artificial germ (artificial lifeform), what in the world would it tell me about the man who made it? Nothing...

I never said anything about a Christian god, "IF" we ever find a god somehow i doubt it will be like any god described by humans.

And on that second point I'm talking about scientific revelations that go beyond finding other life forms. When it comes down to space exploration and science I think more is possible than our minds could handle because we know relatively nothing. I'm merely saying that I'd rather follow science with an open mind than religion.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Then will it please you, LostCause, for me to say I KNOW in God? Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. I know without a single doubt God is there, and his word is true. I just can't figure out how to get the world to realize that. I was once like them, but I found my faith in a different way. I'm not sure everyone can find faith in the same way.



Why is it that all you goddamn Christian "born agains" sound exactly the same? Most Buddhists or Hindus who suddenly find god are happy to follow him in solitude, and leave everyone else to precisely what they should - their own business. Christians on the other hand, everybody wants to be a crusader for some reason. I'll tell you what's so damn annoying about it, it's the self-righteousness, the arrogance, and perceived infallibility/superiority of their view of themselves. I'll bet the first thing Jesus does when he comes back is rip you guys a new asshole for making him look so bad.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

At least God's word is the same, today, yesterday, and forever.

Um... wrong. "God's word," or, The Bible, as I must assume you mean, has been altered uncountable times throughout history. Disregarding the selection and censorship that undoubtedly occured during the Bible's initial compilation, it has gone through hundreds of different "translations" and was controlled throughout the dark and middle ages--times where the vast majority of the populations could not read or preserve their own transcripts--exclusively by the authority of the Catholic Church who, if not certainly, overwhelmingly likely removed texts and re-wrote passages seeking to increase their influence and power, and satisfy any other motives they had.

quote:Originally posted by Donny Darko:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Also, if i were to dismantle an artificial germ (artificial lifeform), what in the world would it tell me about the man who made it? Nothing...

this is not so. if you look at anything that is artificially produced and dismantle it you will learn basic things about the person's work ethic, skill in making whatever the product is, and many other things. You can get a rather basic idea of someone's personality based on the things they create.

if there is a god, i think it serves to reason that dismantling it's creations would yield some idea of it's substance.

[This message has been edited by cheapandugly (edited 04-17-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

Anyways, my point is you can apply logic to something that's illogical, such as faith. Despite what HellzShellz says all faith is blind. Otherwise, it wouldn't be faith, it would be knowing.



Why would god equip us with the capacity for logic when he did not intend for us to use it? God surely didn't give us logic for the purpose of survival, as millions of species of organisms survive purely on instinct and behavioral algorithm.

quote:Originally posted by BD w/ Kung-Fu Grip:

Scientific proof of God (http://proof-of-god.freewebsitehosting.com/Hammond5s1.html)

I can't even begin to pretend that I understood an iota of what was said on that paper.

But I intend to hold on to it, and ask someone who might.

When and IF that happens, I will respond. *lol*

Thanks for the challenge.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

Why is it that all you goddamn Christian "born agains" sound exactly the same? Most Buddhists or Hindus who suddenly find god are happy to follow him in solitude, and leave everyone else to precisely what they should - their own business. Christians on the other hand, everybody wants to be a crusader for some reason. I'll tell you what's so damn annoying about it, it's the self-righteousness, the arrogance, and perceived infallibility/superiority of their view of themselves. I'll bet the first thing Jesus does when he comes back is rip you guys a new asshole for making him look so bad.

Then the Hindu's and Buddhist's that stick to themselves don't "love" their fellow man.

We Christians consider our faith to be GOOD NEWS ! It is a release from the bondage of our sin and of our flesh...and a promise of life everlasting in the beauty and peace of Heaven.

If this is true, what kind of selfish people would we be to keep it to ourselves ?

You are SO offended by people telling you that God loves you, eh ?

I know MANY Christians, and none of them are arrogant, self-righteous pricks. I wonder at where you are getting your experiences from.

I don't believe it was lost on Jesus how pathetic man is...and that is why he put the burden of spreading the gospel to the world in OUR hands...it further illustrates his complete mercy, grace, and love for his Creation.

Oh, and Christians don't all sound the same...in case you hadn't noticed, there are over 300 different sects of Christianity in America ALONE. Everyone thinks they've got the answers, though the Bible alone is more than enough.

quote:Originally posted by Adorkable:

Um... wrong. "God's word," or, The Bible, as I must assume you mean, has been altered uncountable times throughout history. Disregarding the selection and censorship that undoubtedly occured during the Bible's initial compilation, it has gone through hundreds of different "translations" and was controlled throughout the dark and middle ages--times where the vast majority of the populations could not read or preserve their own transcripts--exclusively by the authority of the Catholic Church who, if not certainly, overwhelmingly likely removed texts and re-wrote passages seeking to increase their influence and power, and satisfy any other motives they had.

2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (Paul the Apostle to Timothy)

Which means, no matter how man changes it, God's word is preserved, and as He intends us to understand it.

Do not forget the power of God.

It is greater than the stroke of a pen.

quote:Originally posted by cheapandugly:

if there is a god, i think it serves to reason that dismantling it's creations would yield some idea of it's substance.



You don't even need to dismantle God's creation to see the value, beauty, and love that He poured in to it.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (Paul the Apostle to Timothy)

Which means, no matter how man changes it, God's word is preserved, and as He intends us to understand it.

Do not forget the power of God.

It is greater than the stroke of a pen.

If you're trying to convince an atheist he's wrong about something, you're better off using logic and thought instead of scripture and questionless belief.

[This message has been edited by Adorkable (edited 04-17-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Adorkable:

Why would god equip us with the capacity for logic when he did not intend for us to use it? God surely didn't give us logic for the purpose of survival, as millions of species of organisms survive purely on instinct and behavioral algorithm.

I'm no advocate for god, by any means. I'm technically atheist, afterall. That aside, though, I don't know if he didn't intend for us to use it. I mean, if we were created by god and he is our father, that's sort of like trying to rationalize why your parents are your parents. They're your parents simply because they created you and for no other deeper or logical reason than that.

There are a lot of things that occur that aren't logical, in such respects. So, he may have given us logic and the ability to use it, but may be there are just some things that are illogical. Or may be we're too dumb to figure it out.

Also, it says in Genesis that there were two trees: The Tree Of Knowledge Of Good And Evil and The Tree Of Life, in the east of Eden. Adam and Eve ate from The Tree Of Knowledge Of Good And Evil and god told them that now they were like "they the gods". However, he also condemned them to an inevitable death, then, and told them that they'd never be able to fully grasp they're newfound knowledge until they ate from The Tree Of Life (which he gaurded with cherbums with flaming swords). That more or less symbolizes that they'll never be able to understand their existence until they die.

Cheers,

Lost