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Trojan_47
2005-04-09, 21:52
For half my life I've been told the second coming is coming soon!, well hurry up! when is it?

Tarnak
2005-04-09, 22:02
Yesterday.

MasterPython
2005-04-09, 22:12
People have probably been saying stuff like that since Jesus left. If they keep saying it often enought they might be right one day and will look like geniuses.

l337
2005-04-09, 23:26
Does the Bible say anythin to do with there only being 2 more popes or something before the revelation?

NightVision
2005-04-10, 03:40
Yes 2 more. THen rome is supposedly destroyed and all hell breaks loose. 15yrs-300+ yrs.

Hexadecimal
2005-04-11, 17:02
Mind providing a link to a website about that so I can have a good laugh?

ollo
2005-04-11, 17:31
next Thursday, I think

shaunnn
2005-04-11, 23:52
december 21, 2012. time will collapse and we will all die

asthesunsets
2005-04-11, 23:55
thank god, because by then it'd be about 20 bucks a gallon of gas.

imperfectcircle
2005-04-14, 03:20
quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

People have probably been saying stuff like that since Jesus left. If they keep saying it often enought they might be right one day and will look like geniuses.

People would be too busy fucking in the streets to remember and give them credit.

Digital_Savior
2005-04-14, 05:26
quote:Originally posted by asthesunsets:

thank god, because by then it'd be about 20 bucks a gallon of gas.

*LMAO*

That was actually pretty funny.

Thanks !

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Digital_Savior
2005-04-14, 05:28
TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER:

The Bible says no one knows the day nor the hour.

But we can come pretty close.

When the prophecies preceding Armageddon are fulfilled, it will begin.

Have you read Revelation ? It's all in there.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-14-2005).]

Digital_Savior
2005-04-14, 05:30
To all the people who basically spit in the face of Christianity with their haughty, flippant comments:

2 Peter 3:3-4 - "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." (NIV)

Digital_Savior
2005-04-14, 06:06
Ever since the crucifixion of Christ there have been those who have claimed that the second coming of Christ would occur in their lifetime. Obviously these proclamations have been wrong; Christ has not returned ! Yet one day those proclamations will come true.

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PROPHECIES THAT HAVE BEEN FULFILLED:

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1. FALSE CHRISTS

Matthew 24:4-5 - "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (All scripture in The King James Version)

Never in the history of mankind have so many men claimed to be The Christ. Jesus warned in Matt 24:23-25 that this will actually get worse during the Tribulation as these false Christs will do miracles that would deceive even the elect if they had not been forewarned.

STATUS: Fulfilled.

2. BIRTH PAINS OF THE WORLD

Matthew 24:6-8 - "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows."

Throughout the ages there have been wars and rumors of wars as nations rise against nations. Everyday we hear of another war somewhere. There were an average of 170-190 ongoing wars in 1999 compared to an average of 150 during the Cold War. Worse, this generation has lived in fear of nuclear war and increasing terrorism. In spite of medical advancements and enough food for every person, corrupt governments and greed continue to result in famine and pestilence. AIDS now ravages humanity. Finally, the number of large earthquakes greater than 7.0 on the Richter scale has increased by two hundred percent in the past 30 years.

STATUS: Fulfilled.

3. TIMES OF THE GENTILES COME TO AN END

Luke 21:24 - "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Jerusalem and the Temple were captured and destroyed by the Roman General Titus in 70 AD. This was prophesied by Jesus in Matt 24:2 and Lk 21:6. The Jews were led off into captivity allowing the Arabs to settle in Jerusalem and what had been Israel. The next 1900 years are known as the "Times of the Gentiles", which ended when Jerusalem was restored to the Jews in June, 1967.

STATUS: Fulfilled

4. DISPERSAL, AND RETURN, OF THE JEWS

Ezekiel 36:17-24 - Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. 18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: 19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them...

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land."

The prophecies made by Jesus about the Jews' dispersal among the nations and eventual return was prophesied in detail in Ezekiel 36 and 37. It is clear that the key event that was required before Christ returns is the return of the Jews to Israel after a nearly 2000 year exile. The Jews formed the nation of Israel against overwhelming odds on May 14, 1948. No other peoples in history have maintained their national heritage when dispersed for more than about 200 years, yet the Jews did it for 2000 years, and returned to recreate the nation of Israel, just as God had promised ! Quite literally, Jesus could not have returned until that happened.

STATUS: Fulfilled

5. FALSE RELIGION

2 Timothy 3:1-8 - "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with diverse lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith."

While elements of this prophecy have prevailed throughout the centuries, and individual nations have exhibited most of these characteristics at once, never has there been a time when all of the world exhibits them to the degree that is now occurring, especially within the world leadership and elite. Examples are too numerous to list in this condensed discussion. The key is found in verse 5, where it is clear that a false religion exists that exhibits spirituality, but totally denies the sovereignty of God and Christ. Called New Age, it is based in Theosophy and is almost universally practiced by the world leaders and elite. It is being instituted through environmentalism, using false eco-catastrophes. It is sweeping the Western World and already prevails in Europe. It dominates the White House and many federal agencies, and is the official religion of the United Nations. It is steeped in mysticism and Gnosticism where "secret" knowledge denies the one true God and Christ. The roots of this religion can be traced back through Rome, Egypt, Babylon and supposedly Aryan Atlantis (Nazism was based on it). The reference to Jannes and Jambres is no accident; they are Pharaoh's magicians who opposed Moses.

STATUS: Fulfilled

6. Advanced Technology

Daniel 12:4 - "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

Never before in the history of mankind has this prophecy been fulfilled as today. Modern transportation, computers and the Internet allows us to literally run to and fro around the world, while incredible amounts of knowledge and information is but a pushbutton away.

STATUS: Fulfilled

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PROPHECIES THAT HAVE YET TO BE FULFILLED:

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These are the Prophecies that need to be fulfilled during the Tribulation that are occurring today !

1. One World Government & Ten Nation Confederacy

Daniel 7:7-8, 24 - "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.... 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom..."

Revelation 13:1, 17:12 - "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.... 12 The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom..."

These prophecies and many others (see Dan. 2:40-46, Rev. 17 and 18) tell of a One World Government made up of ten kingdoms. The United Nations, through the power of the world's banking families and systems, along with many international corporations, is planning a change in the UN Charter that would make it a world government, independent from and with absolute authority over the nations of the world. (See http://www.un.org/reform ). Documents on this site show that they hoped to have the one-world government in place by 2000 by creating a new UN Charter during the September, 2000 Millennium Summit. Club of Rome documents reveal that the world is being partitioned into ten economic/trade zones, which are patterned after the European Union (EU).

STATUS: Being Fulfilled

2. HARLOT CHURCH

Revelation 17:3-6 - "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."

Sponsored by the global elitist banking, corporate and foundation organizations, the world religion (see above) is being advanced through environmentalism, and with the ratification of the Earth Charter (see above), the New Age World Religion will be firmly in place. According to the UN Commission on Global Governance (http://www.cgg.ch), no one will be permitted to have a leadership position in the New World Order unless they pledge to uphold this new "ethics system" based in Earth Charter and United Religions. Biblical Christianity is hated by those promoting this new religion. Dan 7:21, 25; Rev. 17:6; 6:9-11; 7:14 clearly show that this religion will justify the slaughter of millions of Christians. UN documents and treaties demonize Christianity as being responsible for the world's ecological crises and the dominance of women by men. The EU is presently being heavily lobbied to consider Biblical Christianity as a cult.

STATUS: Being Fulfilled

3. TEMPLE REBUILT

Matthew 24:15 - "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand)..."

The holy place is the Temple. For this to occur, the Temple must be rebuilt. The site of the Temple is now occupied by the Islamic Dome of the Rock, one of the holiest temples of Islam. To tear it down would cause a holy war of unprecedented savagery. Yet, God says it will be rebuilt. While rumors abound that the stones for the Temple have already been cut, it is a fact that temple priests are being trained to perform temple duties and temple instruments crafted.

STATUS: Being Fulfilled

4. MARK OF THE BEAST

Revelation 13:16-18 - "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

Until the 1970s, prophecy scholars could only speculate how this prophecy would be fulfilled. Not only is this technology now possible, it is here. Computer chip transponders half the size of a Tylenol capsule can be tracked by satellites and are commercially available for cars and pets to trace if they are stolen. Further miniaturization will permit them to be grafted under the skin and used not only for tracking, but also as an ID for buying and selling. It is interesting (not necessarily significant) that every IPC label is based on the number 666 and the numeric equivalent of www (for World Wide Web) is supposedly 666 !

STATUS: Being Fulfilled

On a final note...

START OF THE TRIBULATION

Daniel 9:27 - "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Daniel 9:26 stunningly predicted the time of Christ's crucifixion. Verse 27 states that the tribulation will start when "he" (the beast or Antichrist) will sign a covenant with Israel. This covenant will most likely guarantee Israel's security. He will be a part of the new world government, but probably will not be well known at this point. It appears inevitable that someone within the emerging world order will soon be making a peace treaty with Israel. When it happens it will mark the beginning of Daniel's last week of the seventy weeks of years, and the beginning of the seven year tribulation.

STATUS: Impending Fulfillment

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-14-2005).]

Trojan_47
2005-04-15, 02:40
quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Ever since ....

Great post, thnx

SmokeWhiskey
2005-04-15, 03:19
'A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever.'

Ecclesiastes 1-4

Loc Dogg
2005-04-15, 03:40
It won't be anytime soon. Jesus has to come back, then the Last Day will be soon after.

Kiefer
2005-04-15, 10:36
quote:Originally posted by shaunnn:

december 21, 2012. time will collapse and we will all die



1.) December 23, 2012 actually. and it was prophesized by the mayans. If i remember correctly they sai 2000, but our calenders differ and what not,so their 2000 is our 2012. anyway i don't think the world is going to "end" but there might be natural disasters or a change of the earths magnetic poles or something I DUNNO!!! just watch out, cuz that day is fucking comming and a lot of people A FUCKING LOT know something is going down on that day, so write it down. anyway, enjoy your tea and crumpets. I just thought i should let you know...

Digital_Savior
2005-04-23, 06:14
quote:Originally posted by Trojan_47:

Great post, thnx

You're totally welcome...

It took about 2 hours to get all that down and formatted properly.

*lol*

deptstoremook
2005-04-24, 03:01
quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

...Prophecies Fulfilled...

Fallacious. You're forcing the facts to fit the prophecy; I could show how all of those in fact do not fulfill the prophecy, but I'll only do one (in the interests of time, and because by doing one I discredit the rest by implication)

quote:6. Advanced Technology

Daniel 12:4 - "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

Never before in the history of mankind has this prophecy been fulfilled as today. Modern transportation, computers and the Internet allows us to literally run to and fro around the world, while incredible amounts of knowledge and information is but a pushbutton away.

Where is the point at which knowledge has been "increased" enough to be valid fulfillment? You cannot tell me because it is impossible to tell from that scripture.

To reduce the argument, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy; knowledge is any sort of data transmitted between humans. When Daniel said that, he was increasing knowledge, and thus fulfilled his own prophecy. That is invalid.

deptstoremook
2005-04-24, 03:07
quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

...Prophecies Fulfilled...

Fallacious. You're forcing the facts to fit the prophecy; I could show how all of those in fact do not fulfill the prophecy, but I'll only do one (in the interests of time, and because by doing one I discredit the rest by implication)

quote:6. Advanced Technology

Daniel 12:4 - "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

Never before in the history of mankind has this prophecy been fulfilled as today. Modern transportation, computers and the Internet allows us to literally run to and fro around the world, while incredible amounts of knowledge and information is but a pushbutton away.

Where is the point at which knowledge has been "increased" enough to be valid fulfillment? You cannot tell me because it is impossible to tell from that scripture.

To reduce the argument, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy; knowledge is any sort of data transmitted between humans. When Daniel said that, he was increasing knowledge, and thus fulfilled his own prophecy. That is invalid.

PS - WHEN WILL ARMAGEDDON COME?

Well, the bible says it will come "like a thief in the night," insinuating that nobody will expect it. This defeats itself; Revelation tells us to expect it, but it will only come when we don't expect it.

A >> B

B >> ~A

~A >> ~B

Revelation (A) makes us expect Apocalypse (B)

Expecting Apocalypse (B) negates Revelation (~A)

Negating Revelation (~A) negates Apocalypse (~B)

Therefore

Apocalypse will never come.

Social Junker
2005-04-24, 03:45
What about Matthew 16:28?



Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.



Some say this predicts that Jesus would return in the lifetimes of the apostles. Some also say Jesus is predicting the Transfiguration. I'm interested to hear your take, Digi. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Also, here's a website that shows the everchanging timetable of the Rapture (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/rapture.html) (the referance to Matthew 16:28 is debatable, of course). I found it interesting that the fear of the end of the world is a common fear of every generation.

PS-I don't agree with the political views of that website, I posted it for the timeline.

[This message has been edited by Social Junker (edited 04-24-2005).]

Digital_Savior
2005-04-24, 06:20
In an effort to answer your question, I will post a paper by James Stuart Russell on The Parousia (which means "Presence" in Greek, referring to the Second Coming of Christ) in 1878 (so, please forgive the language, and the roman numerals !):

"The close of John the Baptist's ministry, in consequence of his imprisonment by Herod Antipas, marks a new departure in the ministry of our Lord. Previous to that time, indeed, He had taught the people, wrought miracles, gained adherents, and obtained a wide popularity; but after that event, which may be regarded as indicating the failure of John's mission, our Lord retired into Galilee, and there entered upon a new phase of His public ministry. We are told that 'from that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand' (Matt. iv. 17). These are the precise terms in which the preaching of John the Baptist is described (Matt. iii. 2). Both our Lord and His forerunner called 'the nation to repentance,' and announced the approach of the 'kingdom of heaven.' It follows that John could not mean by the phrase, 'the kingdom of heaven is at hand,' merely that the Messiah was about to appear, for when Christ did appear, He made the same announcement. 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' In like manner, when the twelve disciples were sent forth on their first evangelistic mission, they were commanded to preach, not that the kingdom of heaven was come, but that it was at hand (Matt. x. 7). Moreover, that the kingdom did not come in our Lord's time, nor at the day of Pentecost, is evident from the fact that in His prophetic discourse on the Mount of Olives our Lord gave His disciples certain tokens by which they might know that the kingdom of God was nigh at hand (Luke xxi. 31).

We find, therefore, the following conclusions plainly deducible from our Lord's teaching:

1. That a great crisis, or consummation, called 'the kingdom of heaven, or of God,' was proclaimed by Him to be nigh.

2. That this consummation, though near, was not to take place in His own lifetime, nor yet for some years after His death.

3. That His disciples, or at least some of them, might expect to witness its arrival.

But the whole subject of 'the kingdom of heaven' must be reserved for fuller discussion at a future period.

PREDICTION OF COMING WRATH UPON THAT GENERATION

There is another point of resemblance between the preaching of our Lord and that of John the Baptist. Both gave the clearest intimations of the near approach of a time of judgment which should overtake the existing generation, on account of their rejection of the warnings and invitations of divine mercy. As the Baptist spoke of 'the coming wrath,' so our Lord with equal distinctness forewarned the people of 'coming judgment.' He upbraided 'the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not,' and predicted that a heavier woe would overtake them than had fallen upon Tyre and Sidon, Sodom and Gomorrha (Matt. xi. 20-24). That all this points to a catastrophe which was not remote, but near, and which would actually overtake the existing generation, appears evident from the express statements of Jesus.

Matt. xii. 38-46 (compare Luke xi. 16, 24-36): 'Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign: and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: for as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh shall rise in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonas and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with generation, and condemn it, for sue came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.'

This passage is of great importance in ascertaining the true meaning of the phrase 'this generation' [genea]. It can only refer, in this place, to the people of Israel then living- the existing generation. No commentator has ever proposed to call 'genea' here the Jewish race in all ages. Our Lord was accustomed to speak of His contemporaries as this generation:

'Whereunto shall I liken this generation?'- that is, the men of that day who would listen neither to His forerunner nor to Himself' (Matt. xi. 16; Luke vii. 31). Even commentators like Stier, who contend for the rendering of 'genea' by race or lineage in other passages, admit that the reference in these words is 'to the generation living in that then extant and most important age.' So in the passage before us there can be no controversy respecting the application of the words exclusively to the then existing generation, the contemporaries of Christ. Of the aggravated and enormous wickedness of that period our Lord here testifies. The generation has just before been addressed by Him in the very words of the Baptist- ' O brood of vipers' (ver. 34). Its guilt is declared to surpass that of the heathen; it is likened to a demoniac, from whom the unclean spirit had departed for a while, but returned in greater force than before, accompanied by seven other spirits more wicked than himself, so that 'the last state of that man is worse than that first.' We have in the testimony of Josephus a striking confirmation of our Lord's description of the moral condition of that generation. 'As it were impossible to relate their enormities in detail, I shall briefly state that no other city ever endured similar calamities, and no generation ever existed more prolific in crime. They confessed themselves to be, what they were- slaves, and the very dregs of society, the spurious and polluted spawn of the nation.' 'And here I cannot refrain from expressing what my feelings suggest. I am of opinion, that had the Romans deferred the punishment of these wretches, either the earth would have opened and swallowed up the city, or it would have been swept away by a deluge, or have shared the shun. defaults of the land of Sodom. For it produced a race far more ungodly than those who were thus visited. For through the desperate madness of these men the whole nation was involved in their ruin.' 'That period had somehow become so prolific in iniquity of every description amongst the Jews, that no work of evil was left unperpetrated; . . . so universal was the contagion, both in public and private, and such the emulation to surpass each other in acts of impiety towards God, and of injustice towards their neighbors.'

Such was the fearful condition to which the nation was hastening when our Lord uttered these prophetic words. The climax had not yet been reached, but it was full in view. The unclean spirit had not yet returned to his house, but he was on the way. As Stier remarks, 'In the period between the ascension of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem, especially towards the end of it, this nation shows itself, one might say, as if possessed by seven thousand devils.' Is not this an adequate and complete fulfilment of our Saviour's prediction? Have we the slightest warrant or need for saying that it means something else, or something more, than this? What presence is there for supposing a further and future fulfilment of His words? Is it not a virtual discrediting of the prophecy to seek any other than the plain and obvious sense which points so distinctly to an approaching catastrophe about to befall that generation? Surely we show most reverence to the Word of God when we accept implicitly its obvious teaching, and refuse the unwarranted and merely human speculations which critics and theologians have drawn from their own fancy. We conclude, then, that, in the notorious profligacy of that age, and the signal calamities which before its close overwhelmed the Jewish people, we have the historical attestation of the exhaustive fulfillment of this prophecy.

FURTHER ALLUSIONS TO THE COMING WRATH

Luke xiii. 1-9: 'There were present at that season some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.'

How vividly our Lord apprehended the approaching calamities of the nation, and how clear and distinct His warnings were, may be inferred from this passage. The massacre of some Galileans who had gone up to Jerusalem to the feast of the Passover, either by the command, or with the connivance of the Roman governor; and the sudden destruction of eighteen persons by the fall of a tower near the pool of Siloam, were incidents which formed the topics of conversation among the people at the time. Our Lord declares that the victims of these calamities were not exceptionally wicked, but that a like fate would overtake the very persons now talking about them, unless they repented. The point of His observation, which is often overlooked, lies in the similarity of the threatened destruction. It is not 'ye also shall all perish,' but, 'ye shall all perish in 'the same manner' . That our Lord had in view the final ruin, which was about to overwhelm Jerusalem and the nation, can hardly be doubted. The analogy between the cases is real and striking. It was at the feast of the Passover that the population of Judea had crowded into Jerusalem, and were there cooped in by the legions of Titus. Josephus tells us how, in the final agony of the siege, the blood of the officiating priests was shed at the altar of sacrifice. The Roman soldiers were the executioners of the divine judgment; and as temple and tower fell to the ground, they buried in their ruins many a hapless victim of impenitence and unbelief. It is satisfactory to find both Alford and Stier recognising the historical allusion in this passage. The former remarks: the force of which is lost in the English version "likewise," should be rendered "in like manner," as indeed the Jewish people did perish by the sword of the Romans.'

IMPENDING FATE OF THE JEWISH NATION

Luke xiii. 6-9: 'He spake also this parable: A certain man had a figtree planted in his vineyard: and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he to the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig-tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: and if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.'

The same prophetic significance is manifest in this parable, which is almost the counterpart of that in Isa. v., both in form and meaning. The true interpretation is so obvious as to render explanation scarcely necessary. Its bearing on the people of Israel is most distinct and direct, more especially when viewed in connection with the preceding warnings. Israel is the fruitless tree, long cultivated, but yielding no return to the owner. It was now on its last trial: the axe, as John the Baptist had declared, was laid to the root of the tree; but the fatal blow was delayed at the intercession of mercy. The Saviour was even then at His gracious work of nurture and culture; a little longer, and the decree would go forth- 'Cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground ?'

No doubt there are general principles in this, as in other parables, applicable to all nations and all ages; but we must not lose sight of its original and primary reference to the Jewish people. Stier and Alford seem to lose themselves in searching for recondite and mystical meanings in the minor details of the imagery; but Neander gives a luminous explanation of its true import: 'As the fruitless tree, failing to realize the aim of its being, was destroyed, so the theocratic nation, for the same reason, was to be overtaken, after long forbearance, by the judgments of God, and shut out from His kingdom.'

THE END OF THE AGE, OR CLOSE OF THE JEWISH DISPENSATION

Matt. xiii. 36-47: 'Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world [age]; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be at the end of this world [age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a [the] furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 'Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.... Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was east into the sea, and gathered of every kind: which, when it was full, they drew to the shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world [age]: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.'

We find in the passages here quoted an example of one of those erroneous renderings which have done much to confuse and mislead the ordinary readers of our English version. It is probable, that ninety-nine in every hundred understand by the phrase, 'the end of the world,' the close of human history, and the destruction of the material earth. They would not imagine that the ' world ' in ver. 38 and the 'world' in ver. 39 40, are totally different words, with totally different meanings. Yet such is the fact. Koinos in ver. 38 is rightly translated world, and refers to the world of men, but aeon in ver. 39, 40, refers to a period of time, and should be rendered age or epoch. Lange translates it aeon. It is of the greatest importance to understand correctly the two meaning of this word, and of the phrase 'the end of the aeon, or age.' aion is, as we have said, a period of time, or an age. It is exactly equivalent to the Latin word aevum, which is merely aion in a Latin dress; and the phrase, (Greek- coming), translated in our English version, 'the end of the world,' should be, 'the close of the age.' Tittman observes: (Greek - coming), as it occurs in the New Testament, does not denote the end, but rather the consummation, of the aeon, which is to be followed by a new age. So in Matt. xiii. 39, 40, 49; xxiv. 3; which last passage, it is to be feared, may be misunderstood in applying it to the destruction of the world.' (8) It was the belief of the Jews that the Messiah would introduce a new aeon: and this new aeon, or age, they called 'the kingdom of heaven.' The existing aeon: therefore, was the Jewish dispensation, which was now drawing to its close; and how it would terminate our Lord impressively shows in these parables. It is indeed surprising that expositors should have failed to recognize in these solemn predictions the reproduction and reiteration of the words of Malachi and of John the Baptist. Here we find the same final separation between the righteous and the wicked; the same purging of the floor; the same gathering of the wheat into the garner; the same burning of the chaff [tares, stubble] in the fire. Can there be a doubt that it is to the same act of judgment, the same period of time, the same historical event, that Malachi, John, and our Lord refer ?

But we have seen that John the Baptist predicted a judgment which was then impending - a catastrophe so near that already the axe was lying at the root of the trees,- in accordance with the prophecy of Malachi, that 'the great and dreadful day of the Lord' was to follow on the coming of the second Elijah. We are therefore brought to the conclusion, that this discrimination between the righteous and the wicked, this gathering of the wheat into the garner, and burning of the tares in the furnace of fire, refer to the same catastrophe, viz., the wrath which came upon that very generation, when Jerusalem became literally 'a furnace of fire,' and the aeon of Judaism came to a close in 'the great and dreadful day of the Lord.'

This conclusion is supported by the fact, that there is a close connection between this great judicial epoch and the coming of 'the kingdom of heaven.' Our Lord represents the separation of the righteous and the wicked as the characteristic of the great consummation which is called 'the kingdom of God.' But the kingdom was declared to be at hand. It follows, therefore, that the parables before us relate, not to a remote event still in the future, but to one which in our Saviour's time was near.

An additional argument in favour of this view is derived from the consideration that our Lord, in His explanation of the parable of the tares, speaks of Himself as the sower of the good seed: 'He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man.' It is to His own personal ministry and its results that He refers, and we must therefore regard the parable as having a special bearing upon His contemporaries. It is in perfect harmony with His solemn warning in Luke xiii. 26, where He describes the condemnation of those who were privileged to enjoy His personal presence and ministrations, the pretenders to discipleship, who were tares and not wheat. 'Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God; and you yourselves thrust out.' However applicable to men in general under the gospel such language may be, it is plain that it had a direct and specific bearing upon the contemporaries of our Lord - the generation that witnessed His miracles and heard His parables; and that it has a relation to them such as it can have to none else.

We find at the conclusion of the parable of the tares an impressive nota bene, drawing special attention to the instruction therein contained: 'Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.' We may take occasion from this to make a remark on the vast importance of a true conception of the period at which our Lord and His apostles taught. This is indispensable to the correct understanding of the New Testament doctrine respecting the 'kingdom of God,' the 'end of the age,' and the 'coming aeon,' or ' world to come. That period was near the close of the Jewish dispensation. The Mosaic economy, as it is called - the system of laws and institutions given to the nation by God Himself, and which had existed for more than forty generations,- was about to be superseded and to pass away. Already the last generation that was to possess the land was upon the scene,- the last and also the worst, -the child and heir of its predecessors. The long period, during which Jehovah had exhausted all the methods which divine wisdom and love could devise for the culture and reformation of Israel, was about to come to an end. It was to close disastrously. The wrath, long pent up and restrained, was to burst forth and overwhelm that generation. Its 'last day' was to be a dies irae ' the great and terrible day of the Lord.' This is 'the end of the age,' so often referred to by our Lord, and constantly predicted by His apostles. Already they stood within the penumbra of that tremendous crisis, which was every day advancing nearer and nearer, and which was at last to come suddenly, 'as a thief in the night.' This is the true explanation of those constant exhortations to vigilance, patience, and hope, which abound in the apostolic epistles. They lived expecting a consummation which was to arrive in their own time, and which they might witness with their own eyes. This fact lies on the very face of the New Testament writings; it is the key to the interpretation of much that would otherwise be obscure and unintelligible, and we shall see in the progress of this investigation how consistently this view is supported by the whole tenor of the New Testament Scriptures.

THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN (THE PAROUSIA) IN THE LIFETIME OF THE APOSTLES

Matt. x. 23: 'But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.'

In this passage we find the earliest distinct mention of that great event which we shall find so frequently alluded to henceforth by our Lord and His apostles, viz., His coming again, or the Parousia. It may indeed be a question, as we shall presently see, whether this passage properly belongs to this portion of the gospel history. (9) But waiving for the moment this question, let us inquire what the coming here spoken of is. Can it mean, as Lange suggests, that Jesus was to follow so quickly on the heels of His messengers in their evangelistic circuit as to overtake them before it was completed? Or does it refer, as Stier and Alford think, to two different comings, separated from each other by thousands of years: the one comparatively near, the other indefinitely remote? Or shall we, with Michaelis and Meyer, accept the plain and obvious meaning which the words themselves suggest? The interpretation of Lange is surely inadmissible. Who can doubt that 'the coming of the Son of man' is here, what it is everywhere else, the formula by which the Parousia, the second coming of Christ, is expressed? This phrase has a definite and constant signification, as much as His crucifixion, or His resurrection, and admits of no other interpretation in this place. But may it not have a double reference: first, to the impending judgment of Jerusalem; and, secondly, to the final destruction of the world,- the former being regarded as symbolical of the latter? Alford contends for the double meaning, and is severe upon those who hesitate to accept it. He tells us what He thinks Christ meant; but on the other hand we have to consider what He said. Are the advocates of a double sense sure that He meant more than He said? Look at His words. Can anything be more specific and definite as to persons, place, time, and circumstance, than this prediction of our Lord? It is to the twelve that he speaks; it is the cities of Israel which they are to evangelize; the subject is His own speedy coming; and the time so near, that before their work is complete His coming will take place. But if we are to be told that this is not the meaning, nor the half of it, and that it includes another coming, to other evangelists, in other ages, and in other lands - a coming which, after eighteen centuries, is still future, and perhaps remote,- then the question arises: What may not Scripture mean? The grammatical sense of words no longer suffices for interpretation; Scripture is a conundrum to be guessed- an oracle that utters ambiguous responses; and no man can be sure, without a special revelation, that he understands what he reads. We are disposed, therefore, to agree with Meyer, that this twofold reference is 'nothing but a forced and unnatural evasion,' and the words simply mean what they' say - that before the apostles completed their life-work of evangelizing the land of Israel, the coming of the Lord should take place.

This is the view of the passage which is taken by Dr. E. Robinson. 'The coming alluded to is the destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Jewish nation; and the meaning is, that the apostles would barely have time, before the catastrophe came, to go over the land warning the people to save themselves from the doom of an untoward generation; so that they could not well afford to tarry in any locality after its inhabitants had heard and rejected the message.'

The rest of this paper, and even further exploration of the word of God can be found here: http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1878_russell_parousia/russell_parousia_01b.html# TP (http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1878_russell_parousia/russell_parousia_01b.html#TP)

I think that is MORE than sufficient in answering your question, Social, but if you are not understanding, or don't agree, let me know and I will try and find something better.

The above interpretation is seconded by Henry Alford, who was the Dean of Canterbury during the late 1800's. His paper can be read here: http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/a/alford-henry_canterbury-dean.html

It's long, but it is WORTH THE READ !

Very good question, by the way.

Thanks ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-24-2005).]

Monochrome
2005-04-24, 11:50
I can't wait for the end of day's, I've seen what comes after I hope I'm at the quoter that war gets.

Snoopy
2005-04-24, 16:49
I've seen and been in worse situations than this Armageddon. Jesus can come back to get his ass kicked for the 2nd time, if he desires. God is a douchebag for creating me, and he fucking knows it. Rape religious women cause it's totally sweet.

Social Junker
2005-04-28, 06:20
Thanks, Digi, that was quite a read, but it was worth it. I think it illustrates a good point about the Bible: some passages do not have the meaning that they appear to have on the surface. Intimate knowlege of the Bible is required to understand the true meaning of some passages, and I think a lot of people forget that, and take a lot of passages at "face value".

Digital_Savior
2005-04-29, 05:11
I think your powers of perception far exceed those of your counterparts here on Totse. *lol*

This guy is a great thinker, and I thoroughly enjoyed his argument.

There were many others on that site, and I can't even begin to absorb it all.

Thanks for reading it...I hope it gave some insight.

How is the "quit smoking" thing going for you ?

You have been missed. *hugs*

Social Junker
2005-05-02, 03:33
I've been smoke-free, mostly, for the last six months. I've smoked one or two in there, but I haven't in a while. Thanks for asking. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

PS-Oh, I've read a few more articles off that site; pretty interesting.

[This message has been edited by Social Junker (edited 05-02-2005).]

mathematics88
2005-05-02, 04:53
quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I've seen and been in worse situations than this Armageddon. Jesus can come back to get his ass kicked for the 2nd time, if he desires. God is a douchebag for creating me, and he fucking knows it. Rape religious women cause it's totally sweet.

You suck.

ArgonPlasma2000
2005-05-02, 05:01
Ive thought about this some. With the great oil death right around the corner one can only speculate that A) It is exceedingly soon, or B) peak oil wont kill us and we might have alot of time left.

A: Its real soon because billions of people will die when the oil is tapped out. God is not going to let us (believers) have to suffer this and he takes us out. Now when is it?

Some say 2012 is going to be a time of great change. Now what could that event be? Either its Christs return to establish his kingdom and we have till the end of THIS (yea, 2005!) year to do what we gotta do. Otherwise it might be in 2012 . And thats what all the hubbub is about.

B: God does not see fit to come and get us so peak oil wont make a significant impact on humanity. If thats right, then we have plenty more years of debauchery to go.