I've been calling myself atheist for like 8 years now and I still don't care about religion. I've been hearing a lot of dumbasses call themselves agnostic, and I really didn't know what it was.

Now that I do, it seems like agnostic people just have no friggin idea what to think, so they just say "Hey, I don't know, but either way I am right!". Fucking jerkoffs.

Oh yea god doesn't exist and I seriously doubt jesus did. If he did, he's not the son of god. Just some guy that a friend wrote a book about. I hate Biology and all science but at least it's true. Eat that!

The sheer amount of idiocy that you possess is boggling to the mind.

why?

I have never seen the characteristics of a stereotypical kewl so singulary personified

http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif).

Edit:Oops

[This message has been edited by Disciple (edited 04-11-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Disciple:

I have never seen the characteristics of a stereotypical cool so singulary personified http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif).



As cornpuffmcgruff would have said: you spelled fool wrong.

quote:

Now that I do, it seems like agnostic people just have no friggin idea what to think, so they just say "Hey, I don't know, but either way I am right!". Fucking jerkoffs.

...wait for it...

Oh yea god doesn't exist and I seriously doubt jesus did.

Haha, I laugh at your hypocracy.

Ok... and your logic is where? I'm athiest... but come on!

quote:Originally posted by fat_thighs:

Now that I do, it seems like agnostic people just have no friggin idea what to think, so they just say "Hey, I don't know, but either way I am right!". Fucking jerkoffs.



I'm not religious, but I've got to say that you're the one who comes across as a stupid jerkoff, fuckface.

For a start you sound like a retard because I don't think you even understand the terms you're throwing around. The term agnostic comes from the Greek words "a"(without) "gnosis"(wisdom) - of god obviously. They don't say that god exists, or does not exist, they simply say that whether he exists or not the human brain isn't constructed to be able to know this for sure. It's a prudent philosophical approach to theology, and has a stronger logical basis than any mainstream religious belief system that I can think of. It's even a humble belief, they are declaring their own ignorance!

You on the other hand make a statement that portrays you as an ignorant retard who imposes your view on others (one of the reasons many "atheists" don't like religion, for doing exactly that). Agnostics aren't talking about who is right or wrong, they are just saying that they don't think THEY are fit to decide what's right or wrong.

You on the other hand are somehow declaring what's right and wrong. Tell me, on what basis do you hold this absolute knowledge of the universe and it's origins o mighty one? Don't you realise that your views are more related to religion than those of agnostics? You're stating definitively that there is NO god whatsoever, don't you understand that doing so is just as much an act of faith as a religious person who believes in god? Neither of you have proof and yet you believe something about the existence of god - that's the definition of faith.

quote:Oh yea god doesn't exist

I suppose one of the angels told you, huh?

Dipshit...





[This message has been edited by imperfectcircle (edited 04-10-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by SwordChucks:

Ok... and your logic is where? I'm athiest... but come on!

Aside from all the less clear views in your post I would like to reply to this.

quote:Originally posted by fat_thighs:

It seems like agnostic people just have no friggin idea what to think, so they just say "Hey, I don't know, but either way I am right!"

That’s not true.

I think a real agnostic reasons more like so:

“Because we really don’t know anything I’m leaving every possibility open”

I can find myself in that though I lean more to the atheistic side.

i actually agree for once

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

The sheer amount of idiocy that you possess is boggling to the mind.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v290/Methusar/STFU.bmp

I also agree with the thread starter, just as it is possible for religious people to think they know there is a god, it is also possible for aetheists to think they know there isn't. Being agnostic doesn't make you great just because you're "leaving every possibility open". Leaving every possibility open is just a fucking pussy way of getting out of your opinion. It is possible that there is no such thing as gravity and we're all being held down by invisible dwarfs, but do we teach it in schools? No. If you took the agnostic approach to everything then we'd all be fucked. Its just a fucking shit way of saying "I don't really want to die and not go to heaven, but I don't want to seem stupid so i'll just say I don't know and slap a stupid fucking label on it". Seriously, in no other field than religion would it be possible to get away with such utter shite. Imagine in court, "we don't really know that you killed all those people Mr [insert serial killer], we're leaving every possibilty open. You're free to go."

You can never "know" something with 100% certainty, it is very, very unlikely that there is a god. There has been absolutely no evidence that god exists, there are only fucking retards who go "God talked to me in a dream!". Could it be that it was just that, a dream. There is more than reasonable doubt that there is no form of higher power, fuck, even if we couldn't prove how things like gravity and quantum physics work, its still pretty unlikely that he doesn't exist. If some fucking crackpot started saying he had an invisible friend that is all powerful and created the universe, yet there is no way of proving he exists and he doesn't do anything or show himself because that would be "testing him", he'd get fucking electrocuted.

Get real, stop fucking sitting on the fence and have an opinion for once in your life.

Yeah, because not taking a stance on something you can't defend is such a cop out....*sarcasm*

Fuckin' macho-bullshit, dude. You don't need to pretend to know everything to feel secure. Christ.. No pun intended.

Mephisto, what would lead you to conclude that agnostics hold opinions any less strong or valid than your own?

I consider myself agnostic, and I have strong opinions. I try to base my opinions on logic and reason, not emotion.

I do not believe that there is a god(at least not as described by any religion) , due to the total lack of physical evidence of any god's existance.I believe that the idea of god was created by man to explain away the multitude of events which occured in the world(earthquakes,thunder,lightning,etc).

I accept the evolutionary theory simply because it has a huge amount of verifiable evidence to back it up, even though all aspects of the theory cannot be proven.

I would consider myself atheist, if it were not for the fact that we cannot know what set the universe in motion in the first place. I tend to believe that it was a natural occurance, but the facts are not available. I realise that we do not know all that there is to know. Thus , I accept that there exists the extreemly remote possibility, that a creator of some sort may exist or may have existed.

I would lose no sleep over sending a serial killer to the electric chair, be there evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of his guilt.

Although I see no evidence to convince me that a god exists, it is also impossible to disprove a god's existance. It's far more easy to prove that something exists than to prove that something does not exist, simply because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I believe that god does not exist. Since I cannot know this as fact, I am agnostic.

quote:Originally posted by -Mephisto-:

You can never "know" something with 100% certainty, it is very, very unlikely that there is a god. There has been absolutely no evidence that god exists, there are only fucking retards who go "God talked to me in a dream!". Could it be that it was just that, a dream. There is more than reasonable doubt that there is no form of higher power, fuck, even if we couldn't prove how things like gravity and quantum physics work, its still pretty unlikely that he doesn't exist. If some fucking crackpot started saying he had an invisible friend that is all powerful and created the universe, yet there is no way of proving he exists and he doesn't do anything or show himself because that would be "testing him", he'd get fucking electrocuted.

Get real, stop fucking sitting on the fence and have an opinion for once in your life.

Your "us and them" mentality makes you blind to all but two possibilities, you fucking tool. Come back when you can see in color.

Nice one truckfixr

I can find myself in that very well.

quote:Originally posted by -Mephisto-:

Imagine in court, "we don't really know that you killed all those people Mr [insert serial killer], we're leaving every possibilty open. You're free to go."



i really try not to flame...but what ever happened to being innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt? i mean...if they couldn't prove the guy killed the people i think that counts as a reasonable doubt http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Mephtisto you, like the thread starter, are an idiot.

You don't understand what agnosticism fucking means and yet you consider yourself qualified to dump all over it. I don't consider myself agnostic, this isn't me being defensive, this is me being pissed off by arrogance and ignorance joining forces in your feeble skull to shit on other people's beliefs.

quote:Originally posted by fat_thighs:



I seriously doubt jesus did.

I may be athiest but they proved that there was a guy by the name of Jesus born to a Mary & Joeseph around the same time he was said to be born, and in Bethlaham(sp)? Now i dont believe the stories about him but there was a Jesus.

quote:Originally posted by fat_thighs:

Oh yea god doesn't exist and I seriously doubt jesus did.

well, ur wrong as it has been proven that he did exist and did go to all the places that are in the bible. just because u don't believe it does not make it untrue. And just because u have the mental capacity of a dead worm does not excuse the stupidity you have shown.

quote:Originally posted by fat_thighs:

I've been calling myself atheist for like 8 years now and I still don't care about religion. I've been hearing a lot of dumbasses call themselves agnostic, and I really didn't know what it was.

Now that I do, it seems like agnostic people just have no friggin idea what to think, so they just say "Hey, I don't know, but either way I am right!". Fucking jerkoffs.

Oh yea god doesn't exist and I seriously doubt jesus did. If he did, he's not the son of god. Just some guy that a friend wrote a book about. I hate Biology and all science but at least it's true. Eat that!

hmm, so you hate agnostic ppl because they dont give you a reason to love them or hate them. so you're pissed off at them because you cant place in a catagory in your black and white little mind. you should adapt a grey area, it helps, because not all ppl are one extreme or the other. you simply display your ignorance with such short remarks about something. I'm athiest aswell. but being pissed at a certain type of people is a waste of time and a rot on the intillect.

Mephisto:

"Leaving every possibility open is just a fucking pussy way of getting out of your opinion."

In one hand we have factual evidence; in the other, opinionated bullshit. But wait, there is no evidence surrounding the existence of God. Guess all that's left is opinionated bullshit. Way to go, Champ.

"Get real, stop fucking sitting on the fence and have an opinion for once in your life."

But when you're on the fence you get a good clear view of both sides. Think about it.

Kudos to (almost) everyone else. Have a nice day.

This statement is false.

Sweet, sweet monkey Jesus! Some of those posts were good.

thumbs up to everyone except fat_thighs and Mephisto

I don't even like the term athiest, it sounds like a whole nother religion. I prefer to just not concern myself with matters of religion too much. Whatever happened to "Not having a religion"?

quote:Originally posted by UN!F13D:

I may be athiest but they proved that there was a guy by the name of Jesus born to a Mary & Joeseph around the same time he was said to be born, and in Bethlaham(sp)? Now i dont believe the stories about him but there was a Jesus.

Hrmm, my parents names are jose and maria[spanish equivalents to mary and joseph]. What are the odds of that? Yes there was a jesues, in fact, there were and Im pretty sure there are many of them.

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:



....

I believe that god does not exist. Since I cannot know this as fact, I am agnostic.



The same applies to atheists. No athesits knows god doesn't exist, which is exactly why atheism doesn't entail knowledge the non-existence of a god, it entails belief.

Proving non-existence of an omniscient, omnipotent god is impossible.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 04-11-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The same applies to atheists. No athesits knows god doesn't exist, which is exactly why atheism doesn't entail knowledge the non-existence of a god, it entails belief



I agree completely. The only reason I cannot consider myself a true atheist is that I accept the possibility ,as remote as it may be, that a god could exist. An atheist, by definition, denies the possibility of the existance of a god.



[This message has been edited by truckfixr (edited 04-11-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

The sheer amount of idiocy that you possess is boggling to the mind.

Agreed.

Now that I have seen his post, I am sure there most certainly is a hell.

quote:Originally posted by Disciple:

I have never seen the characteristics of a stereotypical kewl so singulary personified http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif).

Edit: Oops

Wow I come back from the and my entre has arrived. Nothing better.

Haha, I laugh at your hypocracy.

Same as I laugh at your beliefs.

Ok... and your logic is where? I'm athiest... but come on!

Logic is hard to type with carpal tunnel syndrome.

Agnostics aren't talking about who is right or wrong, they are just saying that they don't think THEY are fit to decide what's right or wrong.

Which means they just have no idea what to say, so they just go both ways. Like the person that can't decide between two cars and buys both.

You're stating definitively that there is NO god whatsoever, don't you understand that doing so is just as much an act of faith as a religious person who believes in god?

Yes, those are my religious beliefs. Which, are simple. No god.

Neither of you have proof and yet you believe something about the existence of god - that's the definition of faith.

Proof is something that isn't mentioned much in religion. Since you brought it up, where is your proof? The Bible? Psh.

I suppose one of the angels told you, huh?

What angels?

“Because we really don’t know anything I’m leaving every possibility open”

It'll be great when America is being attacked and everyone in it looks to the President for comfort. He looks at us all, shrugs, and says, "Hell, I don't know what to do, lets just see what happens".

The post by -Mephisto- is like my first post except elaborate. Thanks for clearing that one up.

I consider myself agnostic, and I have strong opinions.

Not in your case but most people that call themselves "agnostic" are assholes that follow trends. Their opinions come from others. Right now there are swarms of people that think it's cool to say the pope died.

...if it were not for the fact that we cannot know what set the universe in motion in the first place.

Again I hate Biology (study of life... not the class) but those nutcases will find it someday.

I believe that god does not exist. Since I cannot know this as fact, I am agnostic.

I know that god does not exist. And I know that within my lifetime, that I will not be proven wrong.

Your "us and them" mentality makes you blind to all but two possibilities, you fucking tool. Come back when you can see in color.

Stop the hate and elaborate.

You don't understand what agnosticism fucking means and yet you consider yourself qualified to dump all over it.

I consider myself qualified to dump on anything I please. When I made this thread I was just barely drunk enough to aim my stool towards religion in the place I thought I could get the biggest reaction. Don't nitpick and say "Wow, he says he's atheist and then he says he gets drunk. Teenaged loser". Because you're avoiding everything else in here.

I don't consider myself agnostic, this isn't me being defensive, this is me being pissed off by arrogance and ignorance joining forces in your feeble skull to shit on other people's beliefs.

I don't mean to rain on any parades, or shit on anyones belief's, but it's what I know is true. I like to hear other opinions. I'm recognizing as many opinions that I mustered up here by responding to them. I don't think I'm shitting all over your religion, because it's already pure bullshit.

I may be athiest but they proved that there was a guy by the name of Jesus born to a Mary & Joeseph around the same time he was said to be born, and in Bethlaham(sp)? Now i dont believe the stories about him but there was a Jesus.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm just asking for my knowledge. Do you have any sources that aren't seeping with religion and biblical things? I mean evidence outside of the bible on a jesus, mary, and a joeseph.

well, ur wrong as it has been proven that he did exist and did go to all the places that are in the bible. just because u don't believe it does not make it untrue. And just because u have the mental capacity of a dead worm does not excuse the stupidity you have shown.

Flattering.

so you're pissed off at them because you cant place in a catagory in your black and white little mind. you should adapt a grey area, it helps, because not all ppl are one extreme or the other.

My grey matter doesn't have a grey area. Sorry.

but being pissed at a certain type of people is a waste of time and a rot on the intillect.

Sure is starting to seem that way.

But when you're on the fence you get a good clear view of both sides. Think about it.

Can't sit on the fence your whole life or your ass will get sore.

I don't even like the term athiest, it sounds like a whole nother religion. I prefer to just not concern myself with matters of religion too much. Whatever happened to "Not having a religion"?

I feel the same way but "atheism" defines my beliefs.

Proving non-existence of an omniscient, omnipotent god is impossible.

Then let's all believe in my imaginary friend Jim who I will act like he is real and believe with all of my heart is true. Will you all follow me? Well if he was pretend for thousands of years, probably, yes you all would.

An atheist, by definition, denies the possibility of the existance of a god.

I deny the existance of one. Sue me.

Agreed. Now that I have seen his post, I am sure there most certainly is a hell.

I guess that means I'm going there. Oh wait it's just something pretend to keep kids from masturbating. Funny.

I have never seen the characteristics of a stereotypical kewl so singulary personified

I guess I'm just one big stereotype then.

EDIT: I hope your bashing this time doesn't come down to my UBB Code skills.

[This message has been edited by fat_thighs (edited 04-11-2005).]

You can't type out your reasoning for not believing in God, but you can type out that long post? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Fat Thighs:

"Which means they just have no idea what to say, so they just go both ways. Like the person that can't decide between two cars and buys both."

I covered this with Mephisto. There is no evidence either way. All you have is your opinionated bullshit. That's no better than my indecision.

And your analogy doesn't work either. If you can't decide which car to buy, you head home and think about it some more. That's all that the agnostics are doing - holding out for more input, some actual evidence.

"It'll be great when America is being attacked and everyone in it looks to the President for comfort. He looks at us all, shrugs, and says, 'Hell, I don't know what to do, lets just see what happens'."

Yeah... I'm an agnostic (if I must choose a label). Try punching me in the face; see whether or not I fight back. Your analogies are shit.

"most people that call themselves 'agnostic' are assholes that follow trends."

What in the hell are you talking about?

"Their opinions come from others."

And you discovered Atheism all on your own. Riiight. We are all influenced by our surroundings. Unless you grew up all alone on a deserted island, none of the thoughts in that little brain are truly your own.

"I know that god does not exist. And I know that within my lifetime, that I will not be proven wrong."

After thousands of years, billions of unanswered questions, we finally have the Universal truth. Just trust in Fat thighs; he "Knows".

"Can't sit on the fence your whole life or your ass will get sore."

I'd rather have a sore ass than an obstructed view.

If god has infinite power and is hence a god

Surely he affects everything infinitely

This would mean that there would be proof in abundance, in everything in fact that he exists.

This would mean that to not realise he exists would be impossible if he did exist.

You could say he is in a higher place and can't influence the world that would deal with this argument....

But that would mean he isnt really a god.

And that we couldnt get to whatever holy place he is in (ie. heaven), as he couldnt get to us even with his infinite godly powers.

To be honest the sheer lack of any evidence that he exists or ever did exist is proof in itself.

[This message has been edited by craig2005 (edited 04-11-2005).]

Craig:

Your own argument is contradictory. If there is an all-powerful God, surely he/she/it could make us believe whatever it wanted us to believe, even if that belief was atheism.

Proof may be abundant, yet what is to stop a God from shielding the lesser beings from this proof?

"You could say he is in a higher place and can't influence the world..."

I think a more logical argument would be that God 'chooses' to avoid influencing this world (if you're trying to point out the lack of evidence of his existence). In which case, this does nothing to disprove his existence.

"To be honest the sheer lack of any evidence that he exists or ever did exist is proof in itself."

As others have said, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

Craig:

Your own argument is contradictory. If there is an all-powerful God, surely he/she/it could make us believe whatever it wanted us to believe, even if that belief was atheism.

Proof may be abundant, yet what is to stop a God from shielding the lesser beings from this proof?

"You could say he is in a higher place and can't influence the world..."

I think a more logical argument would be that God 'chooses' to avoid influencing this world (if you're trying to point out the lack of evidence of his existence). In which case, this does nothing to disprove his existence.

"To be honest the sheer lack of any evidence that he exists or ever did exist is proof in itself."

As others have said, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".



But surely as his power is infinite it would take all his infinite power to counter the visibility of his infinite power. As there is an infinite amount showing it would take an infinite amount to cover it up, this would mean he'd have none left and therefore to us powerless.

quote:Originally posted by fat_thighs:

Which means they just have no idea what to say, so they just go both ways. Like the person that can't decide between two cars and buys both.

Sigh... you idiot. How can somebody "go both ways"? It would be quite a feat of mental gymnastics if someone could both believe something AND not believe it at the same time. What the hell does your statement mean? Agnostics don't take a position on the existence of god, they take a position on the possibility of whether to do so is possible or not. And it's a SINGLE position they take - that it's impossible.

quote:Proof is something that isn't mentioned much in religion. Since you brought it up, where is your proof? The Bible? Psh.

I'll say it again: you idiot. First of all, since I'm defending an agnostic position, why would I use a Bible for anything I've been talking about? And if you're talking about people with religious views, a religious text is a fair basis for beliefs in some sense at least. For one thing, a central characteristic of any religious system is explaining where the universe came from. Before the Big Bang, there is no behaviour that can be explained by scientific principles, so there is no truth to be found on this matter by science. In fact, this issue isn't as simple as some religious position to do with God or not, we're getting into mythology, the structure of human beliefs. Creation myths and deity myths have been used as a source of truth by humans ever since we started using language, and provided a sense of meaning to life. The only difference between them and you is that you use a different belief system to provide you with an understanding of your life, and that you're an arrogant little cunt who says everybody else is wrong.

I try to keep myself as open minded as possible, and tolerant of other peoples views whether I agree with them or not. But people like you who piss on everybody elses beliefs REALLY annoy me, not because you disagree with everyone else, but because you do so without understanding them before you reject them.

I'm not touching the slander/bashing statements, pointless.

And your analogy doesn't work either. If you can't decide which car to buy, you head home and think about it some more. That's all that the agnostics are doing - holding out for more input, some actual evidence.

The evidence that never was, and never will be?

Try punching me in the face; see whether or not I fight back.

As easy as it is for me to say "Time and Place"... you really did take that "bullshit analogy" too far. I don't mean fighting back. Just knowing what you are and what you will be. I am a person that wants to be happy in life. Knowing what plan you have.

"most people that call themselves 'agnostic' are assholes that follow trends."

What in the hell are you talking about?

Talking about people that will say things like "Yea I'm agnostic, religion is bullshit" as an act of attention, to be punk and rebellious to their parents. I'm 16 and see this a lot. Yes, I'm 16. Something else to pick at.

And you discovered Atheism all on your own. Riiight. We are all influenced by our surroundings. Unless you grew up all alone on a deserted island, none of the thoughts in that little brain are truly your own.

True. I mean more in the sense of someone goes to watch a movie and enjoys it. Then they go to Maddox or some movie forums and they bash it. They then hate the movie because other people do. Just following the stream. I do dwell on things a lot and lose sleep from just staying up thinking on things like religion, or the way someone does something. Anything, I always over calculate and decipher. It's just what I do. I don't share everything I think of, but doing things like this, confronting conflicting opinions helps me think it through.

After thousands of years, billions of unanswered questions, we finally have the Universal truth. Just trust in Fat thighs; he "Knows".

Amen.

I'd rather have a sore ass than an obstructed view.

What I do, in terms of fences... Sit on the fence when I first see it. Sit on it for as long as it takes. Consider both sides. Then, pick a side, and move onto another fence. Sure, I could be converted to Christianity if the fence was ripped down and it was just one big yard. Meaning atheism is false, and all the years of bullshit are true.

To be honest the sheer lack of any evidence that he exists or ever did exist is proof in itself.

If there's no evidence Timmy did his homework, and no evidence that Timmy didn't do his homework... I'm going to think Timmy didn't do his homework. No proof God exists. No proof he doesn't. He doesn't exist.

I think a more logical argument would be that God 'chooses' to avoid influencing this world (if you're trying to point out the lack of evidence of his existence). In which case, this does nothing to disprove his existence.

Does anything do anything at all to proove his existance except thousands of years of the same belief?

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

True, somewhat. It can be turned around though. If I think God exists because there is no evidence of his absense, someone else is thinking the opposite. But without evidence there is only suspicion, or nothing.

But surely as his power is infinite it would take all his infinite power to counter the visibility of his infinite power. As there is an infinite amount showing it would take an infinite amount to cover it up, this would mean he'd have none left and therefore to us powerless.

Eh, I wouldn't think too hard on that one. Might pop something.

Agnostics don't take a position on the existence of god, they take a position on the possibility of whether to do so is possible or not. And it's a SINGLE position they take - that it's impossible.

Still taking a position on God. And let's say one day, a God comes and zaps everyone or heals everything. Could go either way, seeing as this crazy mother fucker has infinite power and can do anything, but has never done anything at all. Anyway, agnostics would say, hey we were right! Atheists would say, yes, we were wrong. But before you declare victory, this will never happen.

As for the rest. Mythology, Science, Religion... any belief can't prove anything about where it all started. I'm putting my money on science though. Mythology and Religion are just like little blankets to warm people up at night.

I'm keeping an open mind as well, aren't I? Not doing half the insulting either. It feels good when people sarcastically praise me. Get rid of the sarcasm and you are praising me. I'm your God. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by fat_thighs (edited 04-11-2005).]

Craig:

"But surely as his power is infinite it would take all his infinite power to counter the visibility of his infinite power."

It's not really THAT difficult to put a veil over the eyes of us 'lesser beings'. God wouldn't have to make all of his work invisible, just simply make us a bit dumber. =)

Fat Thighs:

"The evidence that never was, and never will be?"

Maybe there never will be any evidence. In which case, neither side can effectively defend their opinions. Why should I take a stance on an issue I can't defend? That'd be like trying to form an opinion on a book I'll never read.

"As easy as it is for me to say "Time and Place"... you really did take that "bullshit analogy" too far. I don't mean fighting back. Just knowing what you are and what you will be."

You seemed to be implying that an agnostic mind-set was synonymous with incompetence. "I have no idea what to do... ever". That's how it came across. Anyway, agnostics can still enjoy their lives and know themselves without forcing an opinion on an issue that they cannot support.

"Talking about people that will say things like 'Yea I'm agnostic, religion is bullshit' as an act of attention, to be punk and rebellious to their parents."

Replace 'agnostic' with 'atheist' in there, and you just may have a point.

"I mean more in the sense of someone goes to watch a movie and enjoys it. Then they go to Maddox or some movie forums and they bash it. They then hate the movie because other people do. Just following the stream."

This occurs in nearly every facet of humanity. Yet, you single out all agnostics as "just going with the crowd". Generalizations will get you nowhere, kiddo.

"Amen." Ha!

"What I do, in terms of fences... Sit on the fence when I first see it. Sit on it for as long as it takes. Consider both sides. Then, pick a side, and move onto another fence."

And if both sides have no evidence, no convincing arguments, what exactly would you base your choice on? Why pick one side over the other and accept it as fact?

"If there's no evidence Timmy did his homework, and no evidence that Timmy didn't do his homework... I'm going to think Timmy didn't do his homework."

It doesn't matter what you think. The only thing that matters is what you 'know'. You have no evidence to backup your assumption that he did not do his homework. In which case, your opinion means nothing.

"No proof God exists. No proof he doesn't. He doesn't exist."

Change that to "He 'probably' doesn't exist" and we may agree on something. The truth is you cannot know for certain. To utterly deny the existence of God would be to know all that there is to know in this Universe, making you a God-like being in the process. Something tells me you don't yet have that authority.

"Does anything do anything at all to proove his existance except thousands of years of the same belief?"

It doesn't really matter. The possibility still exists. That's all I'd like you to recognize.

"But without evidence there is only suspicion, or nothing."

Exactly. So how can you turn around and say that you know for certain that God is non-existent?

"Blah blah, God shows up, blah blah... Anyway, agnostics would say, hey we were right!"

No, theists would say, "Hey, we were right". Agnostics would say, "Well, whattaya know. Guess there is one afterall". =)

quote:Originally posted by fat_thighs:

Stop the hate-

You first. This was aimed at mephisto, but hey it applies to you too.

quote:Originally posted by fat_thighs:

Not in your case but most people that call themselves "agnostic" are assholes that follow trends. Their opinions come from others. Right now there are swarms of people that think it's cool to say the pope died.

Funny you mention this, becuase this is actually more common amongst atheists. Oops, looks like I got a little bit ahead of myself...

quote:Originally posted by fat_thighs:

I guess I'm just one big stereotype then.

Good call! When you have something NEW to say, come back and try again.

Veritas is bringing me down and making me realize it is hard to be so harsh. Not climbing the fence again, just sitting closer to it. There is no proof on either side. Wow that makes me sound agnostic. Doesn't change the fact that I don't believe in god. I need to take a nap now so get some more out, people. Bravo.

Tesseract... well, thanks for dodging the meat and eating the sidedish.

Maybe if you hadn't tried to come off as the authority on everything, I would've taken your old, tired arguments more seriously. Take a look through older threads to see what I mean about your points.

Seriously, what makes you think namecalling is a good way to start a discussion?

[This message has been edited by Tesseract (edited 04-11-2005).]

I'm not declaring anything. Just sharing. I don't think it's necessary to say "but that's just my opinion" after every statement I make. Because it is coming from me, it must be mine and only mine.

In my first post as you may have read later on, I came home a bit drunk and was thinking about that all night. I didn't think it was a topic of heat around here and the whole agnosticism being a retarded belief has kind faded in my head. I haven't been swayed on my opinions on atheism.

Forgot to ask, how many of you here are strongly monotheistic anyway? Seems like most of you have been non-believers that just don't agree with my topic title.

quote:Originally posted by fat_thighs:

[b]Agnostics don't take a position on the existence of god, they take a position on the possibility of whether to do so is possible or not. And it's a SINGLE position they take - that it's impossible.

Still taking a position on God. And let's say one day, a God comes and zaps everyone or heals everything. Could go either way, seeing as this crazy mother fucker has infinite power and can do anything, but has never done anything at all. Anyway, agnostics would say, hey we were right! Atheists would say, yes, we were wrong. But before you declare victory, this will never happen.

...

I give up. I'm not going to try and explain my point a third time in detail, but I'll say it one last time: you misunderstand what agnosticism means. It's not taking a position on God. It's taking a position on us. Agnosticism isn't religious, it's metareligious.

Look at it like this. Imagine you had a computer, and on this computer you had a bunch of self aware Artificial Intelligence programs running on it, all able to talk with each other, but with no connection or previous knowledge of the outside world. Eventually, after they had come up with possible explanations of what they were, the topic of conversation would move to what exists outside their little computer environment. Some might come up with elaborate fantasies about the outside world despite having no knowledge of it, for whatever reason, curiosity, loneliness, fear of uncertainty... These are the "religious" ones. Some might come up with elaborate arguments why it's logical to assume that they are all that exists, and that there is no basis to believe otherwise. These are the "atheist" ones. Finally a third group might consider both previous positions, think about it for a while, and decide that maybe something exists outside their computer environment, and maybe something doesn't, but either way they have no basis to be absolutely and unquestionably certain of either one. These would be the "agnostics".

Never mind what you think about life, the universe, and god - just considering my example, which group do you think is the most reasonable?





[This message has been edited by imperfectcircle (edited 04-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

... but either way they have no basis to be absolutely and unquestionably certain of either one. These would be the "agnostics".



Atheism isn't absolute. It is questionable. Just as is any belief. I don't think anything can be unquestionable, without being arrogant.

Really though I'm not heated about agnosticism anymore. It isn't terrible, but people that are agnostic shouldn't really mention it. If they are really agnostic and don't care much either way, then they are either being agnostic for the wrong reason or just hypocrites.

quote:Originally posted by fat_thighs:

Atheism isn't absolute. It is questionable. Just as is any belief.......



Atheism is unquestionable. To be atheist,by definitionone must deny the existance of god. This leaves no option for question.

Agnosticism merely accepts as fact that the existance of a god , or lack thereof, cannot be known with 100 % certainty.

Most agnostics are borderline atheists, due to the extreemly low odds of a gods existance being proven.

I'm surprised you relate agnosticism with trendsetters, as I see athiesm/anarchism to be a lot more popular among kids I know.

I'm agnostic, and now that I think of it, I've never told anyone I know, it just never comes up. The best I can remember is telling a friend who said he was unsure of a diety that I don't think metaphysics really matter, as we live in the physical world where such things are not relavent to life as a whole. I choose agnosticism because there might have been something, somewhere that might have started this mess, but I wouldn't think of worshipping it, and I don't believe in anything omnipotent. It doesn't have an effect on me.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

The sheer amount of idiocy that you possess is boggling to the mind.

I agree,

Listen jackass, I'm agnostic. I can't prove there is a god and I can't prove there isn't. So I just choose not to care. You are a moron. This is in reply to fat_thighs.

quote:Originally posted by fat_thighs:

Atheism isn't absolute. It is questionable. Just as is any belief. I don't think anything can be unquestionable, without being arrogant.

Really though I'm not heated about agnosticism anymore. It isn't terrible, but people that are agnostic shouldn't really mention it. If they are really agnostic and don't care much either way, then they are either being agnostic for the wrong reason or just hypocrites.

Why exactly should agnostics not mention their beliefs, while you should mention yours? That's an ignorant and annoying thing to say. Especially since you've demonstrated that you don't understand what agnosticism is. I might as well go onto the computing forum and start ranting about why Linux is a piece of shit, even though I don't know the first thing about it. People there would call me an idiot, just as rightly as the people here have been calling you one.

Also, you didn't answer my question about which of the three groups of AI would seem the most reasonable.

I'm going to say the undecided AI program in that one, but due to the parameters of the analogy only. In reality, atheists, theists, and agnostics are rather much the same in their level of reasonable belief...but this is because the AI have a way to test themselves for design (self-awareness doesn't change the fact that they will always respond the same way to the same stimuli), if they have yet to, then the middle path is the correct choice. As humans though, we have no way to test ourselves for design, as we are a little bit more complex than 1s and 0s, and frankly, we'll never know all the variables that influence our choices. With no test for design, complete doubt with the logical concession for possibilities becomes the most reasonable belief...while some claim that is agnosticism, I counter that with the following:

Am I a fence-sitter on the issue of the tooth fairy just because there's a remote chance of one existing? Fuck no! As certain as the human mind can be other than on the issue of the self existing, I know the tooth fairy does not exist; but due to the natural flaw in logic, there must be a concession made that it is possible. What makes agnosticism unreasonable is that it deals merely with possibilities rather than probabilities; it's possible that in any second I'd transform into a dinosaur and shit out a rainbow...but I tend to take a REASONABLE approach, rather than entertain and weigh every possibility (as there are an infinite amount of them).

The only thing that's impossible is the self not existing in the now; aside from that, the mind needs to deal with PROBABILITIES, because absolutely everything other than inexistence in the now is possible.

Edit: Just because I defend atheism doesn't mean I completely agree with fat_thighs...that guy seems retarded, though I'm sure I do to some of ya'll.

[This message has been edited by Hexadecimal (edited 04-13-2005).]

But the AIs trying to determine possible reality outside of their own environment is exactly the same as any human trying to determine a reality beyond our physical world. The definition of an Artificial Intelligence is one that has self-awareness, and as such they are no different from us. To make the example a bit more applicable to us, you could include certain conditions about not being able to figure out their computational design, and make them have the same limitations as we do. You can't ignore that ultimately we are exactly the same as these imaginary AIs, our brains which create our own artificial intelligence are just sophisticated biological computers.

My point is that you shouldn't get too caught up in the minute details of the differences between us and the AIs, because as far as the matter of determining truths about things which we have no experience of, we are dealing with the same problem. Just for the sake of argument let's say that we designed these AIs so that in every respect possible, they think they are just a bunch of human beings, and can only do things that we could do.

About the tooth fairy, you're talking about something that exists within this universe, so your doubt can be based on the fact that it is never observed by human beings. This is an empirical matter, but for god he supposedly exists "outside" of our reality. The lack of his observation can't prove that he doesn't exist, because to define god as something which must be observed by humans would be attaching conditions to his existence, and so you could only reject the possibility of one definition of what god is.

About the possibility of you turning into a dinosaur, quantum mechanics suggests that it is indeed possible for your atoms to spontaneously rearrange themselves into such a configuration, although it is astronomically improbable. Just because nobody has ever observed it, that does not make it impossible. You take that possibility into account, and you say that although it is possible, it is improbable for it to happen to you. An agnostic might say the same thing about god, that his existence is improbable, but we can't say that it is impossible.

(edit, spelling)

[This message has been edited by imperfectcircle (edited 04-13-2005).]

My argument is simply that it's not reasonable to give equal weight to possibilities, making atheism the more reasonable avenue of doubt.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

My argument is simply that it's not reasonable to give equal weight to possibilities, making atheism the more reasonable avenue of doubt.

as an agnostic im going to look at the other side of this: it is reasonable to give equal weight to possibilities, making agnosticism the more reasonable avenue of doubt.

an agnostic not only suspends judgement, but considers the consequences of his/her beliefs and the effects they may have on others. the latter part of this is what im going to refer to.

in w.k. clifford's argument for agnosticism he used the example of the ship owner sending his crew off to sea on what he assumed to be a seaworthy boat. the ship sailed and sunk, killing all the people in the boat. the ship owner based his beliefs on past experiences, because the boat had never sunk before. he was not wrong as a result of the ship sinking, but he was wrong in holding the belief that the ship was seaworthy.

this is a foundation for agnosticism. it is a matter of ethical importance to form our own beliefs in a correct manner. as we can see with the person who started this thread, he was wrong in a few aspects of his beliefs and look what resulted... many, many angry people.

what consequences could there be for believing in god? look what happened to the jews around 1940. not to say that judaism is a bad religion because of the consequences, but there are consequences nonetheless.

you might say, why the fuck should i base my beliefs on other people? well its not merely other people you are forming your beliefs for. considering the consequences of a belief only strengthens it if it is correct. agnosticism is about forming beliefs based on personal preference and proof while respecting the consequences that pertain to others.



-i am noticing that it is becoming quite the trend to claim agnostic or atheist. whats the big deal you damn punks?

[This message has been edited by usanails (edited 04-13-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by usanails:

Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

My argument is simply that it's not reasonable to give equal weight to possibilities, making atheism the more reasonable avenue of doubt.

as an agnostic im going to look at the other side of this: it is reasonable to give equal weight to possibilities, making agnosticism the more reasonable avenue of doubt.

an agnostic not only suspends judgement, but considers the consequences of his/her beliefs and the effects they may have on others. the latter part of this is what im going to refer to.

in w.k. clifford's argument for agnosticism he used the example of the ship owner sending his crew off to sea on what he assumed to be a seaworthy boat. the ship sailed and sunk, killing all the people in the boat. the ship owner based his beliefs on past experiences, because the boat had never sunk before. he was not wrong as a result of the ship sinking, but he was wrong in holding the belief that the ship was seaworthy.

this is a foundation for agnosticism. it is a matter of ethical importance to form our own beliefs in a correct manner. as we can see with the person who started this thread, he was wrong in a few aspects of his beliefs and look what resulted... many, many angry people.

what consequences could there be for believing in god? look what happened to the jews around 1940. not to say that judaism is a bad religion because of the consequences, but there are consequences nonetheless.

you might say, why the fuck should i base my beliefs on other people? well its not merely other people you are forming your beliefs for. considering the consequences of a belief only strengthens it if it is correct. agnosticism is about forming beliefs based on personal preference and proof while respecting the consequences that pertain to others.



-i am noticing that it is becoming quite the trend to claim agnostic or atheist. whats the big deal you damn punks?



The sea captain, in that analogy, makes the mistake of not inspecting the boat before he sent his crew off in it. It is his own negligence that allowed the ship to sink, and the crew's unwarranted trust in an incompetent that brought them to death upon a crap boat.

Here's my naval analogy: I go to the dock, don't see a boat, or any wakes in the water...so I think, "Hey, no boats...guess I'll get tanked in the tavern." I don't see a god, or any evidence of one or any having been around, so instead of being indecisive, or just sitting there waiting for a boat that I have no reason to believe is coming, I'll go do something that I consider worthwhile.

A suggestion for atheists: take a strong dose of magic mushrooms and lie down in a field with one or two good (preferable mature) friends in a field for three hours. I guarantee you, you'll be at least agnostic at the end of it http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

A suggestion for atheists: take a strong dose of magic mushrooms and lie down in a field with one or two good (preferable mature) friends in a field for three hours. I guarantee you, you'll be at least agnostic at the end of it http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I use acid, shrooms, and occasionally go into the hellish trip that 20+ benodryls throw you into...all cause major disassociation, still an atheist. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)