Apparently the most likely guy to be the next pope, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was a Hitler Youth when he was a kid. This guy does not sound like a barrel of laughs, he's orthodox Catholic in a big way, and some of his nicknames have been “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler”.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html

Are the cardinals going into conclave suicidal? The church needs reform BADLY if it's going to survive in a state that even remotely resembles what it is now.

I thought they selected papal canidates who were relatively young so that they could serve for a long time?

Did you read the parts where it said that his father was a fervently anti-Hitler and that membership in the Hitler Youth was mandatory?

Did you even read the article?

Hey man, the Catholic church has needed reform for hundreds of years.

The Catholic Church needs to go back to tradition. Since the reforms of Vatican II what has happened to the Church? 6% of people in Ireland go to church...20% in Italy.. I hope Ratzinger gets it.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Did you read the parts where it said that his father was a fervently anti-Hitler and that membership in the Hitler Youth was mandatory?

Did you even read the article?



I know what they are saying about it now after the war at any rate. Hell according to those who participated it seems like there were a grand total of 3 Nazis who supported the party at the time, and everybody else was just doing it because it was "mandatory". This guy says he never fired his gun or even had it loaded because of a fucking finger infection? I came up with better cover stories when I was 7.

So you're basing your opinion of him all because you're suspiscious of him? How the hell do you know he didn't fire a bullet, or have a loaded gun? It's pretty obvious he was a against the war and against Hitler. It is also pretty safe to say that because he was anti-Hitler, he probably didn't join the Hitler youth of his own free will.

quote:Originally posted by Adorkable:

I thought they selected papal canidates who were relatively young so that they could serve for a long time?

Yea, I never thought it was a good idea to appoint to one of the highest positions of a particular organization a person two years from life expectancy.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

he probably didn't join the Hitler youth of his own free will.





A leader has the courage to exercise his *free* will, no matter the cost to his own carcass, no?



See: Jesus.

^ Hehe damn good point

We are talking about a man who needs the leadership skills necessary to run one of the major world religions for the rest of his natural life after all

I'm still holding out for a black pope.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

^ Hehe damn good point

We are talking about a man who needs the leadership skills necessary to run one of the major world religions for the rest of his natural life after all

You realize he would have been a teenager at the time?

If he was a full grown adult and he joined, then you'd have a point, but he was a youth(hence the name Hitler Youth...).

sig heil mein pope!



the catholic church was pretty cool with the holocaust at the time though. i guess morals are debatable for them.

isn't calling him the panzer cardinal in really bad taste? doesn't that kind of make it seem like he likes his stint for ole adolf?

"The Catholic Church needs to go back to tradition."

yeah, cause they are so up to date and 'with it'. i think they need to enter the world we live in.

he deserted the army. but he still ended up as a POW.

who really cares, he is already pushing his expected life expectancy. he has what, 10 years in him? who really cares if he wins, we will go through all this again in a few years anyway. unless someone tries to kill him, which is very likely considering all the other popes luck.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

You realize he would have been a teenager at the time?

If he was a full grown adult and he joined, then you'd have a point, but he was a youth(hence the name Hitler Youth...).



Actually it's the fact that he wasn't an adult that makes this point valid. Refusing to join wouldn't have been a fight to the death for him. It was possible to apply for status as a Conscientious Objector in order to avoid joining the Hitler Youth (it wasn't quite so acceptable for adults though). Here is one guy on the BBC website talking about how he refused to join the Hitler Youth (second story): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3025495.stm

Apparently a number of Jehova's Witnesses from Cardinal Ratzingers home town applied for CO status. He himself though didn't even apply. Whatever he might say about it now we have to just take his word for it, what we do know for certain though are his actions.

The person who is going to be the head of the Christian Church for the rest of his life is a man whose decisions will affect the whole spectrum of the members of that faith. That means everything from decisions about reforming the Church (this guy wants to roll back the clock to pre-Vatican II) to internal policies such as how to deal with pedophile priests (currently they tend to get hushed up, meaning they potentially go on to abuse more children). The character of the next Pope will have great and very much direct effects on millions and millions of lives. It is not at all excessive to demand that his character should be beyond reproach.

Unfortunately the more I read about this guy the more uncomfortable I get. Like check out his fan club for example: www.ratzingerfanclub.com (http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com)

This next part comes off the main page:

"Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger is head of the Catholic Church's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, whose mission is to "to promote and safeguard the doctrine on the faith and morals throughout the Catholic world" (John Paul II).

As Grand Inquisitor for Mother Rome, Ratzinger keeps himself busy in service to the Truth: correcting theological error, silencing dissenting theologians, and stomping down heresy wherever it may rear its ugly head -- and, consequently, has received somewhat of a notorious reputation among the liberal media and 'enlightened' intellegensia of pseudo-Catholic universities."

If the division of the church he heads up doesn't sound familiar, that's just because Pope Pius X changed it a hundred years to something more PR friendly. It used to be the Holy Office of the Inquisition, those guys who did all the charming torture on "heretics" a few hundred years ago - hence his title, Grand Inquisitioner. This pretty much fits with the policies he seems enthusiastic about bringing into force, the man is a Christian fundamentalist, and I really don't think that this is what the church needs right now, quite the opposite.

I don't want a fundamendalist(or Ratzinger) either, I just pointed out that it is silly to point a finger at him for being in the Hitler Youth when it was mandatory to join. You wouldn't blame a teenager for doing what his parents of his government tells him to do. It's just stupid.

I want a liberal South American to become pope. Put a new face on the Catholic Church.

I know what you mean, I was just saying that he could have gotten out of it if he really wanted to, others did.

Fair enough, though I still would give the teenager the benefit of the doubt for not potentially putting his life on the line during a world war.

I know that if I was in his situation, I would do nothing to rock the boat.

[This message has been edited by napoleon_complex (edited 04-18-2005).]

And I'd say that's certainly a fair thing to say about most people - but it's not "most people" that you really want being the highest earthly authority for 1.1 billion Christians for the rest of his life.

I doubt he knew he would become a cardinal at the time, thus negating the argument that a prospective pope should act differently. If he was a priest and he didn't do anything, and just did what he was told, then i'd agree with you, but the guy was a fucking teenager; no older than I am. I can't imagine being drafted into the Hitler Youth, can you? He was a kid at the time. Give him a fucking break.

I think you're missing the point. I don't want a pope who acted heroically just because he thought he might become pope some day, I want one who is heroic by nature and therefore would have stood up to the Nazis, it's quite the opposite thing. To be Gods supposed representative on earth, the man should be exceptional, being pope is a BIG deal in the end.

He was 16 when he was assigned to fire flak cannons at aircraft that might attack a BMW plant, and after that he was setting up anti-tank mines on the Austrian border. That's hardly a kid, he would have known what he was doing, and it wasn't fun and games. If other "kids" opposed the Hitler Youth and refused to join it, and weren't shot or have any harm come to them, then I don't see any excuse for him not doing the same. The mans character is on trial here, and this doesn't score any points for him.

I suppose what I'm really opposed to is his fundamentalism, which I think would be destructive for the church which is at a very important crossroads, and this Nazi business just gives me ammo to use against him.

So you admit they're just baseless ad-hominem attacks on Ratzinger? I've read your posts, and I think you're too smart to be using this as a reason to hate him. Do you hold every German in the same regard who acted similarly during WW2?

A persons actions as a 16 year old should have absolutely no bearing on them as an 80 year old. People change. People find God. People find religion. I pray and hope that my actions now won't determine my status when I'm that old, especially because most people change dramatically from their adolescence to their senility(lack of a better term).

I've just been a cranky fucker this past week, quitting cigarettes after six years and trying to start the Uberman sleep schedule = not a very cheerful circle.