Just a joke...not meant for debate.

I would also like to say ahead of time I am in no way trying to be disrespectful to the church's loss.

Enjoy. :^D

********************************************

HEAVEN — The soul of Pope John Paul, which entered heaven last week following a long illness, expressed confusion and disappointment Saturday, upon learning that the Celestial Kingdom of God to which the departed faithful ascend in the afterlife is significantly less luxurious than the Vatican's Papal Palace, in which the pope spent the past 26 years of his earthly life.

"Where are all the marble statues, sterling-silver chalices, and gem-encrusted scepters?" the visibly disappointed pope asked. "Where are the 60-foot-tall stained-glass windows and hand-painted cupolas? Where are the elaborately outfitted ranks of Swiss Guards? Why isn't every single surface gilded? This is my eternal reward?"

Heaven, according to the New Testament, has "brilliance like a very costly stone... of pure gold, like clear glass..." with "twelve gates... each gate a single pearl." Yet the pope, who spoke from the afterlife, said heaven is nothing like the "solid-gold city" detailed at length by John of Patmos in the Book of Revelations.



"Evidently, the Bible was not intended to be taken literally, after all," John Paul II said. "Don't get me wrong: It's very nice up here—quite beautiful and serene. It's just not as fancy as what I'm accustomed to. If I'd known heaven was going to be like this, I would've taken one last tour through my 50 rooms of velvet-draped thrones and priceless oil paintings before saying 'Amen' and breathing my last."

According to the pope, heaven is merely a place of unending peace and happiness, wherein all the spirits of the Elect live together forever in perfect harmony and goodness, basking in the rays of God's divine love.

"Up here, everyone is equal," John Paul II said. "No one has to go through an elaborate bowing ritual when they greet me. And do you know how many times my ring has been kissed since I arrived? None. Up here, I'm mingling with tax collectors, fishermen, and whores. It's just going to take a little getting used to, is all."

The pope said it is amusing to think that he has been waiting for this "so-called Paradise" his entire life.

"I spent almost 84 years reciting novenas and Hail Marys to get to this restful place," John Paul II said. "If I'd wanted peace, quiet, and pretty clouds, I could've moved to the Italian Riviera. Frankly, this afterlife represents a significant drop in my standard of living."

"Well, they always said you can't take it with you," he added.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-19-2005).]

lame...

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

lame...

Coming from the two people that represent CATHOLICISM, I'd say I hit the nail on the head, based on the reaction.

How is it lame ?

The truth hurts, methinks.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Just a joke...not meant for debate.

You aren't going to give credit to The Onion?

http://www.theonion.com/index.php?issue=4115

No, I would've thought even someone who hates catholicism would think that's lame..By no stretch of my imagination is that remotely humorous....It's..uhmm. lame

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Coming from the two people that represent CATHOLICISM, I'd say I hit the nail on the head, based on the reaction.

How is it lame ?

The truth hurts, methinks.



It's not that it "hurts", it's that it isn't funny.

quote:Originally posted by Sarter:

You aren't going to give credit to The Onion?

http://www.theonion.com/index.php?issue=4115

I am not sure where it originated, since it came to me via an email forward.

But thanks !

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

No, I would've thought even someone who hates catholicism would think that's lame..By no stretch of my imagination is that remotely humorous....It's..uhmm. lame

Well, I don't hate Catholicism, so if you were referring to me, you are incorrect in your assumption.

It is humorous to people who can see how full of crap the Catholic Church is.

They don't need all the flair and pomp...they just like it, which is self-serving, and detrimental to the world's perception of God. It has nothing to do with being a Christian !!

Take offense if you like...it's your belief system, after all.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-20-2005).]

Oh, it's funny, Napoleon...

It is VERY funny that a man who took his faith seriously enough to dedicate his entire life to God could indulge in such frivolous, useless, man-made things.

Fuck you.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Oh, it's funny, Napoleon...

It is VERY funny that a man who took his faith seriously enough to dedicate his entire life to God could indulge in such frivolous, useless, man-made things.

Did you ever stop and think that the reason that he indulges in man-made things is because *GASP!* he is a man?!?!?!?!?

DS, I know it's easy as hell to criticize the revelance in man-made objects from the outside...but perhaps the Pope was/is strong enough of mind to view those riches in a historical aspect, rather than a monetarial aspect? Sure, Catholicism MAY be a money-grubbing scheme...but it may be genuine.

Napoleon - He is supposed to be the Vicar of Christ, not just a MAN !!!

You ever stop to think about the utter hypocrisy of the station of the Pope ?!

He is in NO WAY Christlike, which is all we are commanded to do.

In light of that, it is reasonable to conclude that the Catholic Church is based on nothing but man-made fallacy, and shouldn't be followed.

It is a detriment to God, since it misrepresents Him, misquotes Him, and misuses His commandments.

Period.

HEX - I have no doubt that these people's intentions are pure...they are among the most convicted peoples of religious tendancies I have ever witnessed. I do not take this away from them.

I also do not ignore the fact that even in the midst of all this heresy, they can and often ARE saved through the blood of Christ. This is the only requirement to get into heaven, and so it is not with their dogma that I contend.

I don't really think they do what they do for the monetary value of it...I think it is a way of showing ******dly how important God is, but it is a fallacy, and is strictly unbiblical.

The best way to live your life as a Christian is to be like Christ...he was poor, often hungry, and homeless. He relied on the kindness of others, and asked for nothing for himself.

He was born humbly, and died humbly.

Chrst himself went into a rage in front of the temple because of the swindling and money-grubbing that was going on...he knew then that money and gold and fine things are worthless to our souls, and it angered him that man was putting it over God in importance.

He also said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's."

This is an obvious testament to the fact that gold and silk and stained glass windows don't mean a thing, and only serve as a deterrent to some, and a stumbling block to others.

Everything about the Catholic Church defies this teaching.

I find this laughable, I did a google search for the pope's wealth to get some figures to support me, and I found a claim he made last year deanouncing the imbalance between rich and poor in the world.

Excuse me while I burst my appendix laughing at this. I wonder what the imbalance of wealth is between the average assets of a Christian priest and those of the pope.

Unfortunately the Vatican seems to be extremely tight lipped about it's finances, except for saying that it is extremely poor (...please, I don't have another appendix to spare...). Well the estimates of the church's wealth vary enormously, between 1 and 12 billion dollars. Poor church, the pope will be out on the street collecting change in a crumpled hat soon it looks like.

That wealth is made up of "securities, gold reserves, real estate and artistic treasures". The largest personal art collection in the world by far is the pope, but the last one said they are priceless, "They are not for sale, they belong to everyone". Sweet! I'll be around to pick up that Da Vinci I've had my eye on then.

Did you know the Vatican has it's own bank by the way? No need to store those billions where they might be infected by the dollars of heathens and evil Muslimoids. Not everybody is too fond of this bank though. There is currently a lawsuit taken against the Vatican Bank by Holocaust survivors who claim that the bank accepted valuables from Nazi sympathisers taken from people who were put into concentration camps by the Nazis. The case has been going for a while, originally turned down by a federal judge who said the lawsuit could damage "governmental negotiations and diplomacy". This month though a Circuit Court judge overturned that ruling, so we'll have to wait and see how it turns out.

There are more than a few allegations against the church when it comes to financial impropriety:

quote:"

Many Italians still remember Roberto Calvi, director of Milan`s

Banco Ambrosiano - dubbed the "God`s Banker" because of his close

ties with the Vatican.

After the bank was declared bankrupt Calvi fled Italy and was

later found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge in London. "If something

happens to me the pope must resign," he reportedly said before his

death.

In the course of that investigation U.S. cardinal Paul Casimir

Marcinkus was forced to resign as head of the IOR after being accused

of dubious banking activities. To this day the background to Calvi`s

death remains unclear. Magistrates suspect the Mafia finished him off

after he pocketed money he was meant to launder on its behalf.

And, of course, there is still a decades-old rumour that Pope John

Paul I - who died in 1978 after just 33 days in office - was murdered

because he wanted to investigate the Vatican`s shady financial deals.

Hmm. Well whatever about all that, I just have one real question after all of this is put aside: Why does the pope live in such spectacular luxury, when the average priest works for peanuts?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Napoleon - He is supposed to be the Vicar of Christ, not just a MAN !!!

I never said "just". I said he is a mean and he suffer's from that. being human prevents him from being perfect.

quote:You ever stop to think about the utter hypocrisy of the station of the Pope ?!

Of course I have. It's why I'm not Catholic anymore.

quote:He is in NO WAY Christlike, which is all we are commanded to do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't God supposed to be making that assertion?

quote:In light of that, it is reasonable to conclude that the Catholic Church is based on nothing but man-made fallacy, and shouldn't be followed.

Like all religions, holy books, and hoy people are also based on? You can't call one religion out for being the product of man without calling out all other religions.

quote:It is a detriment to God, since it misrepresents Him, misquotes Him, and misuses His commandments.

Period.

How the fuck do you know that? Does God tell you that Catholics do these things, or are these just your inane opinions with no factual basis?

How does the church misuse God? They don't misuse, misquote, or misrepresent him anymore than any other Christian sect does.

IMO, you just hate Catholics. This hatred has probably been ingrained in your head by someone, or maybe you're just lying to yourself telling yourself that everyone but yourself is wrong. If people don't interpret the bible the way you do, then they are bad christians and they are "misrepresenting, misquoting, and misusing" God and his commandments.

Ignore these tightwads. It was funny.

Google "antipope" ... or just look at the history of the Roman Catholic Church. Past popes have really fucking sucked, and John Paul II is about the only respectable one in modern history. Fucking Benedict XVI looks like Darth Sidious crossed with Hitler, minus the tiny little shit-moustache.

That said, while I usually love The Onion, that was a really stupid story.

Anyway, high Church officials are a bunch of strange old men in robes and funny-looking hats. Don't take anything they say too seriously.

When did you have to start paying them for forgivness? Old pedophiles in wierd hats.

Not so much lame just a waste of 2 minutes of mmy life. But what is funny is the argument use are having now.

Personally, I like stained-glass windows and gold-leafed portraits of the crucifixion. They're not deterrants or pretentious bits: people pour their hearts and souls into those things. It's our earthly appreciation of God.

There is nothing wrong with living a fancy life if you have goodness in your heart.

I am willing to bet Digital Savior is nothing like what she preaches, but this is the internet, so she gives her paycheck to charity and has a computer strictly for 'online charity.' She does just hate Catholics, so I will just let it go, she's clueless.

One of the things that drove me away from Christianity, or the organised religion aspect of it, is the idea that somewhere along the line the cathedral itself came to seem more divine than any individual who enters it to pray. Anything that says one person (Jesus, the pope, a priest...) is more divine than another goes against the very nature of spirituality. Such a religion is a subtle form of opression, and in my eyes unholy.

When are we going to get a mushroom tripping pope? That'll have me back in mass in a FLASH! http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Personally, I like stained-glass windows and gold-leafed portraits of the crucifixion. They're not deterrants or pretentious bits: people pour their hearts and souls into those things. It's our earthly appreciation of God.

There is nothing wrong with living a fancy life if you have goodness in your heart.

I am willing to bet Digital Savior is nothing like what she preaches, but this is the internet, so she gives her paycheck to charity and has a computer strictly for 'online charity.' She does just hate Catholics, so I will just let it go, she's clueless.

I like stained glass windows and incense just as much as anyone else...but that is NOT what makes me a Christian ! These things appeal to my humanity...what about the Catholic Church's rich-living appeals to our spirituality ?

If it were ME that was chosen to lead the largest church organization in the world, you'd better believe I would do it with the utmost amount of humility possible. Since I'm not, I find it irrelevant at best that you choose to compare my supposed iniquities (of which you know nothing about, and must resort to guessing at in order to justify your little temper tantrum) to that of a man that is supposed to be "The Vicar of Christ". I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE IDOLATRY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

You say, "people pour their hearts and souls into those things.", but I have to point out the obvious truth you seem determined to ignore: "People pour out their purses to buy these things.", when the money could be used to help those that are suffering ! Instead, the money is wasted on frivolous trivialities - of which will perish, along with the earth when God returns for His people. It's all garbage, and to "pour your heart out to it" just proves what I have been saying all along...IT TAKES OUR ATTENTION OFF OF WHAT IS IMPORTANT: GOD !

I will repeat, I don't hate the Catholic Church. You wish I hated it, so you could feel comfy in your rejection of my opinion. I HATE WHAT THEY DO TO PEOPLE, IN THE NAME OF GOD ! It's sacrilege, and they will pay for it accordingly.

Did Christ live a fancy life, justified only by his good heart ?

HE WAS A PAUPER. By choice !

Jesus said it himself, "The least of these is the greatest !"

Do you understand what that means ? If not, it would explain why you cannot recognize the heresy of the glamour shows the Pope puts on.

So, go ahead and make your bets about me, but this has nothing to do with me...as usual, anti-Christians take to personal attacks when they haven't got a decent argument about the subject matter.

I went to Rome...4 years ago. It was something I had anticipated all my life. I was very pregnant at the time, so it was a difficult trek, prancing around the streets of Italy, but I did it. I visited the Pantheon, the Colosseum, the Sistine Chapel, and most importantly, The Vatican. Museii de Vaticani.

What I experienced when I entered the building was very different from what I had expected. I had this grandiose misconception that it was going to be an overwhelming spiritual experience. Like the rest of the world, I didn't understand that it is not the building that makes the church...it is the Holy Spirit.

Instead of divinity, I experienced a great burden of oppression...I could barely breathe. I felt the atrocities that had been committed within the confines of "God's Church", and knew instantly that it was evil.

I saw precious little old Italian ladies...their trips to the church were probably their only activity. They did it out of reverence. They did it out of obligation. They did it out of fear.

Dropping their last few precious lire into the hungry pot by the doorway...the Holy Water...the pew...everywhere you looked there were offering boxes, guilded in gold.

There was an ENTIRE room fashioned out of gold. The carpet fibers ? Gold. The thick domineering curtains ? Gold ! The pews ? GOLD !! The people were told that this room was somehow the holiest place that anyone could ever pray in, and they had to PAY to get in !!

You think that is of God ? Are you insane ?!!! What does God care about GOLD ?!

It was disgusting.

It is YOU that remains clueless...and I am sorry to say that this is exactly how Satan likes you.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

One of the things that drove me away from Christianity, or the organised religion aspect of it, is the idea that somewhere along the line the cathedral itself came to seem more divine than any individual who enters it to pray.

EXACTLY !!

It is detracting from God.

My point still stands.

Thanks for your input ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

While I'm not a big Catholic fan, I must say it does seem like you are picking on them. There's a church two minutes from my house called The Cool Church. The "preacher" is the singer/guitarist of the band and looks like a porn star. He drives a Corvette. His wife has fake breasts. The church has at least two projection screens outside for the people who don't feel like going inside. Church still not fun enough? Pick up hotdogs and other snacks at tables outside. Sounds like a business to me, and it's a Christian church, not Catholic.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I like stained glass windows and incense just as much as anyone else...but that is NOT what makes me a Christian ! These things appeal to my humanity...what about the Catholic Church's rich-living appeals to our spirituality ?

Those things are awe-inspiring, just as God is supposed to be.

quote:If it were ME that was chosen to lead the largest church organization in the world, you'd better believe I would do it with the utmost amount of humility possible. Since I'm not, I find it irrelevant at best that you choose to compare my supposed iniquities (of which you know nothing about, and must resort to guessing at in order to justify your little temper tantrum) to that of a man that is supposed to be "The Vicar of Christ". I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE IDOLATRY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

No one idolizes the pope. I fail to see where JPII did the job without humility, maybe you can show me some things. Some popes are bad, some are alright. It doesn't really matter, though, no one pays much attention to them anyway.

quote:You say, "people pour their hearts and souls into those things.", but I have to point out the obvious truth you seem determined to ignore: "People pour out their purses to buy these things.", when the money could be used to help those that are suffering ! Instead, the money is wasted on frivolous trivialities - of which will perish, along with the earth when God returns for His people. It's all garbage, and to "pour your heart out to it" just proves what I have been saying all along...IT TAKES OUR ATTENTION OFF OF WHAT IS IMPORTANT: GOD !

What's better, to spend $1000 to feed 10 homeless people for a week, or to buy a painting that will inspire people forever? Hmm.. of course in your little world, everyone is so important. What you fail to realize, though, is that people die just as everything else does. Why prolong their suffering by giving them meals for 2 weeks and letting them go back to nothing? You don't tease people that way. Even the Catholic Church doesn't have enough money to save everyone. Give it a rest.

"It's all garbage" to you. You have no appreciation of anything earthly. If you wish to be in Heaven so badly and reject all the so-called trivial parts of life, by all means kill yourself. You're not doing anything here anyway.

It doesn't take anything from God, it inspires awe in God. You look at something and see dollar signs, I look at it and see beauty. Who's closer to God?

quote:I will repeat, I don't hate the Catholic Church. You wish I hated it, so you could feel comfy in your rejection of my opinion. I HATE WHAT THEY DO TO PEOPLE, IN THE NAME OF GOD ! It's sacrilege, and they will pay for it accordingly.

I don't wish you to hate it. I'm not even Catholic. It's just pathetic the way you attack it constantly, yet fail to realize every branch of every religion is just as fucked up as it is. Paying for paintings and stained glass windows or paying for missions to Iraq (read: death), what is the difference? They both try to do the same thing.

Who are you to judge anyone? I don't get where you're coming from. You are human, stop trying to act higher.

quote:Did Christ live a fancy life, justified only by his good heart ?

HE WAS A PAUPER. By choice !

According to you, Jesus was God. It's pretty easy for God to do anything he wants, why don't you just accept that YOU ARE HUMAN. You will never be anything like God.

quote:Jesus said it himself, "The least of these is the greatest !"

Do you understand what that means ? If not, it would explain why you cannot recognize the heresy of the glamour shows the Pope puts on.

Of course I do. You don't understand how the world works, though, apparently. We don't live in a utopia.

It's not the pope putting on a glamour show. You're talking about shit that's been left over for hundreds of years, acting like they're just installing gold-fibered rugs at this moment.

There is nothing wrong with worshipping in a disheveled hut nor in a gilded palace. It's what's in your heart that matters. You fail to realize that the grandeur makes some people feel it in their heart even more. Obviously anyone who does something differently than you is wrong.

quote:So, go ahead and make your bets about me, but this has nothing to do with me...as usual, anti-Christians take to personal attacks when they haven't got a decent argument about the subject matter.

You say the same thing every time. "Anti-Christians" this and that. SHUT UP. Most of us aren't Anti-Christians (or anything for that matter), you just have a problem accepting that other people can be different and right at the same time. You said you're not even part of a church, so what makes you right? Are you qualified to condemn people based on your readings of scripture compared to those who spend their lives doing it? I think not.

quote:I went to Rome ... It was disgusting.

That is your view of it. Did you ask the old Italian ladies if they did it out of fear? Oh, I bet the Holy Ghost came down to you and told you that she was afraid seeing as you're so connected to God.

One man's trash is another's treasure. Haven't you ever heard that?



quote:It is YOU that remains clueless...and I am sorry to say that this is exactly how Satan likes you.

I am clueless, but you are moreso.

PS Satan isn't a little goat-legged man prancing about.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

What's better, to spend $1000 to feed 10 homeless people for a week, or to buy a painting that will inspire people forever? Hmm.. of course in your little world, everyone is so important.

...

Don't be so human-centered.

Better than being self-centered.

I already told you what buying paintings is for, it's not being self-centered.

If I was pope I certainly think I would prioritise the suffering of disadvantaged people over the enjoyment of art fans. And what's more, those paintings could give people enjoyment just as equally in any other museum in the world, when did god's house turn into god's museum anyway? What's next, god's cinema?

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

If I was pope I certainly think I would prioritise the suffering of disadvantaged people over the enjoyment of art fans. And what's more, those paintings could give people enjoyment just as equally in any other museum in the world, when did god's house turn into god's museum anyway? What's next, god's cinema?

Passion of the Christ...all the time. Maybe some Charleton Heston Moses...that would rock. I'd go if they had good pop corn, and a decent deal with Pepsi or Coke.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

If I was pope I certainly think I would prioritise the suffering of disadvantaged people over the enjoyment of art fans. And what's more, those paintings could give people enjoyment just as equally in any other museum in the world, when did god's house turn into god's museum anyway? What's next, god's cinema?

You're forgetting their purpose. They illustrate the teachings of the church.

quote:Originally posted by Dualtenz:

While I'm not a big Catholic fan, I must say it does seem like you are picking on them. There's a church two minutes from my house called The Cool Church. The "preacher" is the singer/guitarist of the band and looks like a porn star. He drives a Corvette. His wife has fake breasts. The church has at least two projection screens outside for the people who don't feel like going inside. Church still not fun enough? Pick up hotdogs and other snacks at tables outside. Sounds like a business to me, and it's a Christian church, not Catholic.

How does my disagreement with Catholic dogma prove that Christian churches can't be incorrect ?

Most religion is this way.

I am not picking on Catholics...it is the most frequently brought up religion.

I respond accordingly.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

If I was pope I certainly think I would prioritise the suffering of disadvantaged people over the enjoyment of art fans. And what's more, those paintings could give people enjoyment just as equally in any other museum in the world, when did god's house turn into god's museum anyway? What's next, god's cinema?

You're forgetting their purpose. They illustrate the teachings of the church.

No.

They illustrate man's affinity for falling victim to his own 'Delusions of Grandeur'.

If Jesus didn't need it, we don't need it.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

You're forgetting their purpose. They illustrate the teachings of the church.



So the Bible isn't good enough? Do you have any idea how much money the Vatican has spent on artwork? It's insane.





[This message has been edited by imperfectcircle (edited 04-27-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

If Jesus didn't need it, we don't need it.

You better get the hell off the internet then....

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Well, I don't hate Catholicism, so if you were referring to me, you are incorrect in your assumption.

It is humorous to people who can see how full of crap the Catholic Church is.

They don't need all the flair and pomp...they just like it, which is self-serving, and detrimental to the world's perception of God. It has nothing to do with being a Christian !!

Take offense if you like...it's your belief system, after all.



This is a PRIME example of what my thread was of. Yes, Matthew 23:9 says, "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Nonetheless, You don't know ANYONE'S heart. You are to judge no one. Only GOD knows their hearts. If they've accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour, then leave them alone. They'll answer for their beliefs on the day of judgement, but to insinuate they'll go to hell, when the bible tells us we must accept Jesus and Confess our sins to be saved, is messed up.

Mark 10:17-19 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Notice the 'Rich young ruler's' First question was, "What must I do to inherit eternal life." Jesus said, "Keep the commandments." Jesus asked, "Why do you call me good, there is none good but God." To see if he thought Jesus to be the son of God, or a prophet. The Rich young ruler calling Jesus good master, said he Knew him as Christ. Jesus said, "Sale everything you have, take up your cross and follow me so you may have TREASURES in the kingdom of God." (Not so you may enter the kingdom of God.) The Rich young ruler would have been a 13th disciple.

That's basically my point. Accept Jesus as Lord of your life, and keep his commandments. If you mess up ask for forgivness, he did die for your sins. I Don't understand the Catholic religion, but I'm not going to sit here and tell them they're going to hell either. I'm not God, I don't know their hearts.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 04-27-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

No.

They illustrate man's affinity for falling victim to his own 'Delusions of Grandeur'.

If Jesus didn't need it, we don't need it.

Most of the world up until recently was completely illiterate, and there are still many who are.

Oh, but I guess if you understand through visuals you are not going to heaven.

i'm just jumping in here, i only read some of the posts, so disregard this if it's irrelevant.

the bible has pretty much been the greatest cause of increased literacy... it's also the second most mass-produced book of all time, behind only howard stern's book. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

it's historically been a lot cheaper and easier for someone to pick up a bible, attend church sermons and learn to read, than to make a trip to the vatican to see a ridiculously expensive painting. and if the sole purpose of the artworks is to instruct in the faith and illustrate the narrative of the gospels, they needn't be gilded and expensive. the catholic church is comprised of volunteers, many of whom have taken vows of poverty. i'm sure there's been a capable artist or two in their ranks at any given time who would be willign to paint without fee.

besides, you're kinda missing the point, malaria. it seems like people are arguing that luxury and materialism run contrary to christ's inclination toward austerity. in order to persuade otherwise, consult the gospels. show us where it suggests that christ would think the riches of the vatican is a necessary thing for deploying god's truth on earth.

[This message has been edited by Eil (edited 04-27-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by malaria:



What's better, to spend $1000 to feed 10 homeless people for a week, or to buy a painting that will inspire people forever?

i survive on 20 dollars worth of food each week. you could feed more than 10 people, or for longer than a week, with 1000 dollars.

Hell I wasn't even thinking of the numbers, if you think the average piece of artwork bought by the Vatican cost 1000 dollars, you're way off.

quote:the bible has pretty much been the greatest cause of increased literacy... it's also the second most mass-produced book of all time, behind only howard stern's book.

This may be true, but it still doesn't diminish the outrageous illiteracy numbers throughout the ages.

quote:it's historically been a lot cheaper and easier for someone to pick up a bible, attend church sermons and learn to read, than to make a trip to the vatican to see a ridiculously expensive painting. and if the sole purpose of the artworks is to instruct in the faith and illustrate the narrative of the gospels, they needn't be gilded and expensive. the catholic church is comprised of volunteers, many of whom have taken vows of poverty. i'm sure there's been a capable artist or two in their ranks at any given time who would be willign to paint without fee.

That's not really true, either. Books were always extremely expensive and only the elite could afford them. It's only been recently that the average Joe could get them cheap. It's also been difficult for people to learn to read as well. You've got to remember that all these things that seem so easy for us now were incredibly difficult in previous times. Work was always more important than learning to read, especially when you have a priest or pastor to help you understand the bible without actually reading it.

Also, I don't know a single Catholic who has been or plans on going to the Vatican/gives a shit about it. I realize there are some crazy fanatics of the Pope who would want to, but most don't care. The Vatican is more like a religious-historical museum.

The fact is, most churches have stained glass windows and paintings or wood-carvings of the crucifixion all for the same purpose. No one (who is worth anything) does those for free. The point is that the Vatican is not the Catholic Church as so many outsiders assume, it's the local communities more than anything.

quote:it seems like people are arguing that luxury and materialism run contrary to christ's inclination toward austerity. in order to persuade otherwise, consult the gospels. show us where it suggests that christ would think the riches of the vatican is a necessary thing for deploying god's truth on earth.

No, I understand that and agree with it. I am not Catholic, which you may've missed. I was raised it and live in another Catholic community now, but I am not myself. That said, I know a great deal about it, and I know that the vatican is mostly seen as a museum, not important religiously (like Italians would like to think).

quote:Hell I wasn't even thinking of the numbers, if you think the average piece of artwork bought by the Vatican cost 1000 dollars, you're way off.

I pulled that number out of the air. It is an example, for Thor's sake. Don't be anal about it.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

Hell I wasn't even thinking of the numbers, if you think the average piece of artwork bought by the Vatican cost 1000 dollars, you're way off.

Links?

I wasn't being anal, the point was that if a grand can be put to much more effective use (go fuck yourself if you think putting on an art exibition is more valuable than helping disadvantaged people - and whatever you might think, this is a religion, whose only real goal should be to help people) imagine how much more could be done with the real sums of money we're talking about here.

And I don't have any exact figures (as if the church would release them), but if you think you can build up a collection of work with everyone from Aristotle to Da Vinci for pocket change, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you...

Consider the thought processes of the pope who decided to start building up a collection of priceless art from masters throughout history. Do you think he was going "Aww gee, how can I help out my fellow man... I know, let's spend hundreds of millions of dollars on pictures! That'll do the trick, I'm going to heaven for shizzle". Or might it have been more like this "Hmm, I'm running one of the biggest organisations in the world with zero financial accountability, there are literally billions (today's money) of dollars of assets in my name, and I've got a taste for the finer things in life. Fuck those worthless scumbags eating shit pie and piss soup for dinner, I'm buying me some presents. Nuns, show me your titties!"

I don't have quite so much faith in human nature to believe the first one is more accurate. And just look at some of the lovely things the church has done in the past (the Inquisition springs to mind, or hushing up pedophile priests if you want something more recent), upper management doesn't care too much about the little people as long as the show keeps going.

[This message has been edited by imperfectcircle (edited 04-28-2005).]

They need a tax audit.

So what you're saying is that the Church has played a vital role in the funding and expansion of art, architecture, and sculpture?

The Church isn't perfect, but from a humanity standpoint, they've done a lot.

They pretty much saved education in the middle ages. They kept alive Roman architecture in the middle ages. They funded some of the best artists that the world has ever known.

Don't look at them from a religious standpoint(as hard as that might be), but rather from a historical standpoint. They've done a lot of good for the world.

I wouldn't deny that the Church, through commissioning artists, has been responsible for some magnificent works of art. But it's a matter of degree, there has been far too much money spent on aquiring works that would have mostly ended up in other museums and been on display for people to admire. That money could have been much better spent, which is my point.

Which is your opinion, and we all know what is said about those.

That mine are right? I know.

And yours smell like poo

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

i'm just jumping in here, i only read some of the posts, so disregard this if it's irrelevant.

the bible has pretty much been the greatest cause of increased literacy... it's also the second most mass-produced book of all time, behind only howard stern's book. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

it's historically been a lot cheaper and easier for someone to pick up a bible, attend church sermons and learn to read, than to make a trip to the vatican to see a ridiculously expensive painting. and if the sole purpose of the artworks is to instruct in the faith and illustrate the narrative of the gospels, they needn't be gilded and expensive. the catholic church is comprised of volunteers, many of whom have taken vows of poverty. i'm sure there's been a capable artist or two in their ranks at any given time who would be willign to paint without fee.

besides, you're kinda missing the point, malaria. it seems like people are arguing that luxury and materialism run contrary to christ's inclination toward austerity. in order to persuade otherwise, consult the gospels. show us where it suggests that christ would think the riches of the vatican is a necessary thing for deploying god's truth on earth.



Thank you...

I need a piece of your brain. I am apparently not literate enough to convey the point I am making.

I repeat myself incessantly, and I guess I have to come to the conclusion that it is ME that is not communicating clearly.

Eil, you said it very well.

Thank you for your contribution.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

So what you're saying is that the Church has played a vital role in the funding and expansion of art, architecture, and sculpture?

The Church isn't perfect, but from a humanity standpoint, they've done a lot.

They pretty much saved education in the middle ages. They kept alive Roman architecture in the middle ages. They funded some of the best artists that the world has ever known.

Don't look at them from a religious standpoint(as hard as that might be), but rather from a historical standpoint. They've done a lot of good for the world.

I agree with you 100%.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

I wouldn't deny that the Church, through commissioning artists, has been responsible for some magnificent works of art. But it's a matter of degree, there has been far too much money spent on aquiring works that would have mostly ended up in other museums and been on display for people to admire. That money could have been much better spent, which is my point.

Which I have said, and maintain.

Agreed.