I would sincerely like to know what the collective POV on magic, is, by those that believe in and/or follow God.

I have an inkling, but I know that like times, POV's change on certain matters. So to all of you theists, what's your's?

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

I would sincerely like to know what the collective POV on magic, is, by those that believe in and/or follow God.

I have an inkling, but I know that like times, POV's change on certain matters. So to all of you theists, what's your's?

Magic, as in black magic; white magic; witchcraft? Or as in entertainment illusions?

Edit.. i've been told that i need to learn how to use semi-colons.. changed commas to semi-colons. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 04-21-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Magic, as in black magic; white magic; witchcraft? Or as in entertainment illusions?

Edit.. i've been told that i need to learn how to use semi-colons.. changed commas to semi-colons. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



ASCSID

The magic I'm talking about is sort of specified... Anyhoot, I am talking about magic as in having, an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source [dict].

Being able to control non- and organic energies; energy in general. Also, the existance of magic, forces unalligned with reality as we know it, forces that can defy physics in all ways possible.

You can't defy physics, if anything "magick" is a highly ritualized form of prayer. There have been studies done that showed a group of sick patients at a hospital who were prayered for, recovered faster then a group that was not prayed for (unfortunaly i cannot remember if the patients were told). If anything magick is a something like a natural mental placebo, the ritual helps you further believe in it and the mind takes over from there.

just my thoughts

quote:You can't defy physics...

I never said that I nor anyone else could, I said that the magic itself could.

quote:...if anything "magick" is a highly ritualized form of prayer. There have been studies done that showed a group of sick patients at a hospital who were prayered for, recovered faster then a group that was not prayed for (unfortunaly i cannot remember if the patients were told)...

Well, ok, I don't know about "magick" being a 'ritualized form of prayer'. Doesn't make any sense to me, seeing as how what you're talking about is vastly different from what I was talking about. But I saw and heard of the study of which you speak. Interesting, yes; conclusive, not at all; did I believe it, yes.

Thanx 4 contributing.

Magic was a decent game. I started when I was in fifth or sixth grade, when the Ice Age expansion set was recently released, and I stopped shortly after Tempest came out. I'd be anxious to see where it's gone since... then... um...

No one else here is a nerd, huh?

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Magic was a decent game. I started when I was in fifth or sixth grade, when the Ice Age expansion set was recently released, and I stopped shortly after Tempest came out. I'd be anxious to see where it's gone since... then... um...

GUP

quote:No one else here is a nerd, huh?Wrong



[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 04-21-2005).]

Alot depends on your definition

of magic.

There is plenty of evidence for

humans using abilities that defy

physics. (as we understand)

Often these abilities are used with

no reference to supernatural beings.

Two examples for now:

"dowsing"

"Project Stargate"

I can tell you what the LDS faith believes (I asked my friend about this).

They believe in fortune telling, dream interpretation, and scrying. I'm not going to say anything else because that's all I know for sure. And I think they believe all of these only in limited degrees.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Alot depends on your definition

of magic.

There is plenty of evidence for

humans using abilities that defy

physics. (as we understand)

Often these abilities are used with

no reference to supernatural beings.

Two examples for now:

"dowsing"

"Project Stargate"

None of those have any credible evidence.

Hundreds, if not thousands, of attempts at reproducing sucsesful results with dowsing have failed, and Project Stargate was canceled exactly because of that very fact; it failed to produce any conclusive results!

Magic is science yet undiscovered.

The religious texts of Judeo-Christianity draw a line between Magic and Kabbalah. Kabbalah is an intimate understanding of the workings of the universe as God created it. Supposedly it was given to Moses along with the commandments and the oral law. Magic, or witchcraft, is the invocation or request for the intercession of foreign spirits, Gods, et cetera, to accomplish your goals. It is a form of idolatry, whereas Kabbalah is functional, part of the workings of God, and a positive thing if properly used.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Hundreds, if not thousands, of attempts at reproducing sucsesful results with dowsing have failed,

and Project Stargate was canceled exactly because of that very fact; it failed to produce any conclusive results!

Experienced water dowsers can accurately locate the best location to sink the new well, and also determine the depth of the water, its drinkable quality, and the rate or volume of flow present at that spot.

Many water dowsers have documented success rates well in excess of 95 %.

U.S. Marine engineers used dowsing to help save American lives in Viet Nam. The Marines dowsed to locate tunnels, hidden ammunition, booby traps, and enemy food caches. ASD trustee, Louis Maticia, was the dowser who ran the program and taught the Marines to dowse.

This was not the first time the U.S. military used dowsing to help the troops at war. General George Patton used dowsing to find fresh water for his advancing troops in North Africa during World War II. The Germans had blown up the water wells when they retreated to prevent the American troops from having water to sustain the army in the desert terrain.

Additional government involvement with dowsing comes from the U.S. Geological Service and other branches. While the USGS was publishing a pamphlet which claimed that dowsing was "wholly discredited", several other branches of the government were using dowsing. According to Christopher Bird's book, "The Divining Hand", the Bureau of Land Management, the U.S. Soil Conservation Service, and the National Parks Service were dowsing. Later, at the urging of ASD, the USGS rewrote the pamphlet, "Water Witching", to reflect a more objective, neutral tone.

Open-minded big businesses use dowsing, too. Hoffman-La Roche, one of the largest global pharmaceutical companies in the world, has used dowsing to locate water for its new plants. La Roche needs large quantities of good water to process the chemicals into drugs. A company magazine quoted Dr. Peter Treadwell as saying, "Roche uses methods that are profitable, whether they are scientifically explainable or not."

Water is not the only commodity dowsed for health and profit. The petroleum industry has used dowsing to locate oil wells. Paul Clement Brown, a MIT graduate and electrical engineer, used dowsing to successfully dowse oil wells for Standard Oil, Signal Oil, Getty Oil, Mobil Oil, and others.

Project Stargate was reported to

have had a positive record, but was

closed because it was "unreliable for

military operations".

They documented many exciting experiments

where data was aquired that was not

available from any other source.

However, none of it was used in real

military operations.

Often, the remote-viewer was given

a sealed envelope with map coords

inside, and still accurately described

the area.

Magic is very real...to those who take it seriously.

It is a dangerous liaison, dancing with the devil is.

*shrugs*

Any Christian who says it isn't real is uneducated.

dowsing=real. Some of the other stuff might not be, but the tetragamatron is. But why do you want to summon demons/angels?

Anything not fully understood can be classed as magic.

For example, alchemists centuries ago were seen to be magic in some way because the peasants had no education, therefore no idea that all he was doing was provoking chemical reactions and the such, which we look at today and are not mistified at all by.

I do believe that there is some form of magic in this realm but I have yet to be convinced that it is there.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

quote:Originally posted by psycho_8b:

Anything not fully understood can be classed as magic.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Magic is science yet undiscovered.

Its true, since if i discover i can levitate coffee mugs across my bedroom, and this defies the current laws pf physics, they just make new laws and discard the old to ake room.

quote:Originally posted by NightVision:

dowsing=real. Some of the other stuff might not be, but the tetragamatron is. But why do you want to summon demons/angels?

So they will fight the other guys lvl 7 fangor beast.

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:

So they will fight the other guys lvl 7 fangor beast.

Hah, nice. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Experienced water dowsers can accurately locate the best location to sink the new well, and also determine the depth of the water, its drinkable quality, and the rate or volume of flow present at that spot.

Many water dowsers have documented success rates well in excess of 95 %.

[

You mentioned it being used. So? It being used proves nothing, effectiveness does. Show me evidence of these effectiveness of these attempts at dowsing, and please show me evidence that proves it has a better than chance of finding water.

Also, if you could, please tell me why absolutely no dowser has ever successfully passed the James Randi Challenge for 1 million dollars?

quote:

Project Stargate was reported to have had a positive record, but was closed because it was "unreliable for military operations".

They documented many exciting experiments where data was acquired that was not available from any other source.



However, none of it was used in real military operations.

Often, the remote-viewer was givena sealed envelope with map coords inside, and still accurately described the area.

It being "unreliable" already supports my case that it did not have a better than chance success rate.

Again, provide evidence. Your word is as good as mine. You say that it works, I say they did not present a success rate higher than what would be expected by chance.

Also, I would like for you to answer the same question as above, but with Astral Projection. Why hasn't ANY person passed the James Randi, and claimed the 1,000,000 dollars? Why haven't they even passed the preliminary challange?



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 04-22-2005).]

All I know is that it works. Thats how we knew where to drill for our well.

No. You don't even know that.

Even if we take your anecdotal evidence as true, for the purpose of debate, what did you see? A man holding a stick and finding water? That does not prove it works, it merely proves he found water. How he found water is what would prove if dowsing works or not. He could have found the water by chance. Chance does not prove it works.

Hell, one need only have a knowledge of topography and geology to make a very good educated guess as to where water will be found.

http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/divining.htm

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

No. You don't even know that.

Even if we take your anecdotal evidence as true, for the purpose of debate, what did you see? A man holding a stick and finding water? That does not prove it works, it merely proves he found water. How he found water is what would prove if dowsing works or not. He could have found the water by chance. Chance does not prove it works.

Hell, one need only have a knowledge of topography and geology to make a very good educated guess as to where water will be found.

http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/divining.htm



Yes, I do. If the man in question finds water then it works. It does not matter how it works, as long as it works. You do not believe something that you can not explain, (God, Dowzing, Black Holes...) even though the object in question may be beyond our current level of technology.

Using your logic we would not exist, as it is impossable to explain how we came into being. Some things science can explain, but others are "Magic." http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Companies hire dowsers.

They do this because they

have signifigant success.

(and are less expensive than other ways)



Look up the declassified

Project Stargate documents.

They had "positive results",

but were still unreliable in

military operations.