I have a simple question for Christians that I suspect won't have a simple answer: why were Jesus' last words before he died on the cross "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

because you touch yourself at night?

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

I have a simple question for Christians that I suspect won't have a simple answer: why were Jesus' last words before he died on the cross "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

My belief is that it was an expression from His humanity (as apposed to His Divinity).

This is from Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible (there was no listing in 'Barnes' for Mark 15:34):

Mat 27:46 -

Eli, Eli ... - This language is not pure Hebrew nor Syriac, but a mixture of both, called commonly “Syro-Chaldaic.” This was probably the language which the Saviour commonly spoke. The words are taken from Psa_22:1.

My God, my God ... - This expression is one denoting intense suffering. It has been difficult to understand in what sense Jesus was “forsaken by God.” It is certain that God approved his work. It is certain that he was innocent. He had done nothing to forfeit the favor of God. As his own Son - holy, harmless, undefiled, and obedient - God still loved him. In either of these senses God could not have forsaken him. But the expression was probably used in reference to the following circumstances, namely:

1. His great bodily sufferings on the cross, greatly aggravated by his previous scourging, and by the want of sympathy, and by the revilings of his enemies on the cross. A person suffering thus might address God as if he was forsaken, or given up to extreme anguish.

2. He himself said that this was “the power of darkness,” Luk_22:53. It was the time when his enemies, including the Jews and Satan, were suffered to do their utmost. It was said of the serpent that he should bruise the heel of the seed of the woman, Gen_3:15. By that has been commonly understood to be meant that, though the Messiah would finally crush and destroy the power of Satan, yet he should himself suffer “through the power of the devil.” When he was tempted Luke 4, it was said that the tempter “departed from him for a season.” There is no improbability in supposing that he might be permitted to return at the time of his death, and exercise his power in increasing the sufferings of the Lord Jesus. In what way this might be done can be only conjectured. It might be by horrid thoughts; by temptation to despair, or to distrust God, who thus permitted his innocent Son to suffer; or by an increased horror of the pains of dying.

3. There might have been withheld from the Saviour those strong religious consolations, those clear views of the justice and goodness of God, which would have blunted his pains and soothed his agonies. Martyrs, under the influence of strong religious feeling, have gone triumphantly to the stake, but it is possible that those views might have been withheld from the Redeemer when he came to die. His sufferings were accumulated sufferings, and the design of the atonement seemed to require that he should suffer all that human nature “could be made to endure” in so short a time.

4. Yet we have reason to think that there was still something more than all this that produced this exclamation. Had there been no deeper and more awful sufferings, it would be difficult to see why Jesus should have shrunk from these sorrows and used such a remarkable expression. Isaiah tells us Isa_53:4-5 that “he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are healed.” He hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us Gal_3:13; he was made a sin-offering 2Co_5:21; he died in our place, on our account, that he might bring us near to God. It was this, doubtless, which caused his intense sufferings. It was the manifestation of God’s hatred of sin, in some way which he has not explained, that he experienced in that dread hour. It was suffering endured by Him that was due to us, and suffering by which, and by which alone, we can be saved from eternal death.

Thanks for the informative post xtreem. The reason I posted this topic is that I just read an article in Time that suggests the resurrection of Christ might have been staged by his followers, to make it appear that Jesus was something more than just a very spiritual man. All they would have had to do is roll back the rock and take his body away, the account of what happened is that the two women went to embalm him or something and some random guy was waiting in the empty tomb, who said basically "Jeus is risen". It is true after all that without the mystical turn of events about his body being "resurrected", Christianity would have been just one of the many, many cults of Judaism that were appearing and disappearing all the time during that period.

[This message has been edited by imperfectcircle (edited 04-23-2005).]

Jesus was supposedly the son of God so God was obligated to send angels to protect him. Since Jesus was a human, without supernatural forces to intervene, he would die becuase people who are on fire and stay on fire tend to burn to death. Now, with this logic, God had forsaken him because he had failed to save him. This caused Jesus to cry out those last words.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

I think the words are fitting, actually, because Jesus was dying for humanity, was he not? So he should die "like a man", so to speak. Who knows how many times those words have been on the lips of the dying? It was Jesus' ulimate connection to the human race.

But one of the core concepts of Christianity is that Jesus was not a man, he was the son of God/God incarnate.

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me ?!" was NOT the last thing Jesus said before he died.

The last thing he said was, "It is finished."

In relation to what you have said, however, I must offer this explanation:

God had to turn His back on Jesus when Jesus assumed the weight of the entire sin of our world.

This is where the "sacrifice" truly manifested itself...a lot of Christians like to think that the sacrifice was in Jesus' death ALONE, but that is incorrect.

The sacrifice presented itself in the form of Jesus' abandonment by God.

For the first and only time in Jesus' human existence, he was not "with" God.

That is why, "It is finished." was the last thing he said...the magnitude of the separation from God, and therefore himself, was too much for his physical body to bear.

quote:Originally posted by niggersexual:

Jesus was supposedly the son of God so God was obligated to send angels to protect him. Since Jesus was a human, without supernatural forces to intervene, he would die becuase people who are on fire and stay on fire tend to burn to death. Now, with this logic, God had forsaken him because he had failed to save him. This caused Jesus to cry out those last words.

That just made no sense at all.

"God was obligated to send angels" ??! Where in the Bible is THAT scripture found ?

"Since Jesus was human...", eh ? He was human, but he was still God. Jesus could have taken HIMSELF down from the cross, had he wanted to. He had charge over the entire host of angels in heaven...

Matthew 26:52 - "Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” (Jesus talking to his disciple about cutting off the ear of the servant of the high priest)

It is also said that we all have angels looking out for us, at all times. They are assigned to everyone, and I must think that this included Jesus.

God forsake Jesus by leaving him alone with the weight of the sins of the world on his back...that is all that is meant by that verse.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

But one of the core concepts of Christianity is that Jesus was not a man, he was the son of God/God incarnate.

wrong. the core concept of christianity is that jesus was both man and divine.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

I have a simple question for Christians that I suspect won't have a simple answer: why were Jesus' last words before he died on the cross "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

technically, those weren't his very last words.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me ?!" was NOT the last thing Jesus said before he died.

The last thing he said was, "It is finished."

In relation to what you have said, however, I must offer this explanation:

God had to turn His back on Jesus when Jesus assumed the weight of the entire sin of our world.

This is where the "sacrifice" truly manifested itself...a lot of Christians like to think that the sacrifice was in Jesus' death ALONE, but that is incorrect.

The sacrifice presented itself in the form of Jesus' abandonment by God.

For the first and only time in Jesus' human existence, he was not "with" God.

That is why, "It is finished." was the last thing he said...the magnitude of the separation from God, and therefore himself, was too much for his physical body to bear.

interesting answer, dig. i gotta say, more and more, i admire your conviction.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

God had to turn His back on Jesus when Jesus assumed the weight of the entire sin of our world.

Some questions on this:

- What was the purpose of God turning his back on Jesus at this moment, what did it accomplish?

- When Jesus assumed the sin of mankind, what did this accomplish too? I keep hearing "Jesus died for your sins", but what does that mean? Does it means I am eternally redeemed? Does it mean there is no more sin in the world? I really don't understand how him "assuming the sin of mankind" actually changed anything, please explain, I genuinely don't understand this point of Christianity.

There's no such thing as "sin".

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" are the first words of Psalm 22, as xtreem noted. It's a psalm of David to the tune of "The Doe of the Morning" if that means anything.

I'm also very confused at this, in what way did God forsake Jesus? Jesus already told his disciples twice that he was going to die and rise again, why was he then questioning God's plan? And even more importantly, if Jesus did, just for one second, question God's plan in saying that, doesn't that negate the beliefs of the entire Christian church?

Or if Jesus didn't mean anything at all by saying it, wouldn't that be taking the Lord's name in vain? "the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name"...

Digital_Savior: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me ?!" was NOT the last thing Jesus said before he died.

The last thing he said was, "It is finished."

Nope, you're both wrong :)

Luke 23:44-46 -- By now it was about midday and a darkness fell over the whole land, which lasted until three in the afternoon; the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. Then Jesus gave a loud cry and said, 'Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit'; and with these words he died.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

That just made no sense at all.

"God was obligated to send angels" ??! Where in the Bible is THAT scripture found ?



Read the story about Satan tempting Jesus in the desert. Satan told Jesus that if he jumped of of a building, God would send angels to save him. Jesusu did not dispute this statement.

quote:

"Since Jesus was human...", eh ? He was human, but he was still God. Jesus could have taken HIMSELF down from the cross, had he wanted to. He had charge over the entire host of angels in heaven...



The Bible never makes it clear that Jesus was a God with godly powers. The Trinity was concieved by theologists and was never mentioned in the Bible. They just got this from the Bible where it mentioned different names for God: Father, the Spirit, and also Jesus was supposed to be the son of God. It is possible that Jesus had no powers by himself except to call on the power of the Lord.

quote:

Matthew 26:52 - "Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” (Jesus talking to his disciple about cutting off the ear of the servant of the high priest)

It is also said that we all have angels looking out for us, at all times. They are assigned to everyone, and I must think that this included Jesus.

God forsake Jesus by leaving him alone with the weight of the sins of the world on his back...that is all that is meant by that verse.



[This message has been edited by niggersexual (edited 04-25-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

[B] It is also said that we all have angels looking out for us, at all times. They are assigned to everyone, and I must think that this included Jesus.

B]



I thought the bible was your sole source for Christian knowlege. Where does it say this? (serious question, since I can't remember reading anything of the sort)

I thought the whole 'two guardian angels, one on either side, looking ******d' image was part of Renaissance popular culture. Angels seem to have more exalted duties in the bible than babysitting humans.

quote:Originally posted by niggersexual:

The Bible never makes it clear that Jesus was a God with godly powers. The Trinity was concieved by theologists and was never mentioned in the Bible. They just got this from the Bible where it mentioned different names for God: Father, the Spirit, and also Jesus was supposed to be the son of God. It is possible that Jesus had no powers by himself except to call on the power of the Lord.

That's not true, what about the stories where Jesus turned water into wine, bread into fish, and walked on the water? If you say that these are supposed to be parables, but all the other stuff that Christians take for literal truth, then there is a contradiction.

And nobody has answered my question about what "Jesus dying for the sins of the world" actually changed, I've asked this of Christians before and they always change the subject or refuse to answer.

niggersexual: The Bible never makes it clear that Jesus was a God with godly powers. The Trinity was concieved by theologists and was never mentioned in the Bible. They just got this from the Bible where it mentioned different names for God: Father, the Spirit, and also Jesus was supposed to be the son of God. It is possible that Jesus had no powers by himself except to call on the power of the Lord.

imperfectcircle: That's not true, what about the stories where Jesus turned water into wine, bread into fish, and walked on the water? If you say that these are supposed to be parables, but all the other stuff that Christians take for literal truth, then there is a contradiction.

to imperfectcircle: you need to read other people's posts a bit more carefully. Notice niggersexual's last sentence. Yes, the one that says that Jesus could call upon the Father's powers. Also, something else to keep in mind is that Peter had the same sort of powers as Jesus in the Acts of the Apostles.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

to imperfectcircle: you need to read other people's posts a bit more carefully. Notice niggersexual's last sentence. Yes, the one that says that Jesus could call upon the Father's powers. Also, something else to keep in mind is that Peter had the same sort of powers as Jesus in the Acts of the Apostles.

Yeah but for all intents and purposes this makes them his powers. He wanted to do something "magical" and God let him do it, as long as he can do this the powers are effectively his. If I had a genie who let me perform whatever I wanted to do, those powers might originally belong to the genie, but since I have full use of them they are just as equally mine. Show me an instance when Jesus wanted to perform a "magical" act and God said no.

his last words where

GODDAMNIT THAT HURT

imperfectcircle: Yeah but for all intents and purposes this makes them his powers. He wanted to do something "magical" and God let him do it, as long as he can do this the powers are effectively his. If I had a genie who let me perform whatever I wanted to do, those powers might originally belong to the genie, but since I have full use of them they are just as equally mine. Show me an instance when Jesus wanted to perform a "magical" act and God said no.

Sure, I guess you could say that. But the point was that Jesus' powers don't mean that he's a god, because he could be getting them from the Father. And when you consider that Peter had powers too... I'm sure nobody would say the same about him or anybody else that could perform miracles.

A problem with Christ not being God, according to scripture:

I [Jesus] and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

"I [Jesus] have given them the glory that you [the Father] gave me, that they may be one as we are one" (John 17:22)

"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)

"He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." (Colossians 1:15-16)

As well as this, I have trouble with the amiguity surrounding the name "lord". Jesus is referred to as Lord Jesus Christ, and God is also referred to as Lord God Almighty.

A problem about "God turning his back on Jesus when he was on the cross":

“ ‘I will be his father, and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. I will set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his throne will be established forever.’ ” 1 Chronicles 17:13,14

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

Thanks for the informative post xtreem. The reason I posted this topic is that I just read an article in Time that suggests the resurrection of Christ might have been staged by his followers, to make it appear that Jesus was something more than just a very spiritual man. All they would have had to do is roll back the rock and take his body away, the account of what happened is that the two women went to embalm him or something and some random guy was waiting in the empty tomb, who said basically "Jeus is risen". It is true after all that without the mystical turn of events about his body being "resurrected", Christianity would have been just one of the many, many cults of Judaism that were appearing and disappearing all the time during that period.



Corect, but you gotta see the stones that they used. A stone 20 feet in diameter and at least a foot and a half wide made completely of granite isnt going to get rolled back by 12 men.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

That's not true, what about the stories where Jesus turned water into wine, bread into fish, and walked on the water? If you say that these are supposed to be parables, but all the other stuff that Christians take for literal truth, then there is a contradiction.

And nobody has answered my question about what "Jesus dying for the sins of the world" actually changed, I've asked this of Christians before and they always change the subject or refuse to answer.



Didn't Jesus get his powers from God and preform miracles through the spirit?

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Corect, but you gotta see the stones that they used. A stone 20 feet in diameter and at least a foot and a half wide made completely of granite isnt going to get rolled back by 12 men.

Presumably it would be possible for some number of men to roll it back though, it can't have been impossible.

This made me realise something that doesn't make sense though. When the tomb was discovered to be open, it was by two women who were going to embalm Jesus or some such thing (the reson isn't as important as the fact that it was just two women doing it). How could two women have possibly hoped to get into the tomb on their own?

Jesus's last words were I hope that nail was sterilized

quote:Originally posted by niggersexual:

Didn't Jesus get his powers from God and preform miracles through the spirit?

When the random woman came up to him in a crowd and touched his cloak and was healed. He stopped and said "Who touched me, I felt power going out from me." That seems to indicate that he was imbued with divine power in and of himself. But Judaism tends to be Panentheistic anyways, so if God is in everything, trying to point out where His power is and where it comes from is kinda pointless. It's just there, and the Tzadik/Prophet/Messiah would just have the secret to controlling it.

awareness of the ten sephiroth

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

The New Testament seems to espouse that faith is the currency also though.

[This message has been edited by Sephiroth (edited 04-27-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

Some questions on this:

- What was the purpose of God turning his back on Jesus at this moment, what did it accomplish?

It was symbolism, as much as it was functional.

Christ was offering himself. That is the only way we could be sure that we reside in our salvation by way of Grace and Mercy alone.

quote:- When Jesus assumed the sin of mankind, what did this accomplish too? I keep hearing "Jesus died for your sins", but what does that mean? Does it means I am eternally redeemed? Does it mean there is no more sin in the world? I really don't understand how him "assuming the sin of mankind" actually changed anything, please explain, I genuinely don't understand this point of Christianity.

Jesus PAID for all our sin, by assuming responsibility for it.

This allowed us the opportunity to experience God, without the burden of the law, and without fear of human action.

It was significant that it happened this way, because any other way would remove either grace, or mercy from the character of God (Jesus).

Once you have given your heart to Christ, you are indeed eternally redeemed. The only unforgivable sin after that is rejecting God.

There will always be sin in the world, or at least until Christ comes back during Armageddon.

The only change that affects us in regards to Christ's death is that we don't have to pay for our own sins, anymore. In the Old Testament, everything was about the law. Sacrificial offerings were a part of daily life, to atone for their sins.

We are not held under that same law, because we reside under the law of Christ, which eliminates the need to "work" for our salvation. Now, we must have "faith", and that is the only requirement for salvation.

Is this a sufficient answer ?

I can try and do better at another time...I am, quite frankly, exhausted.

I just started working again after a 6 week hiatus after my hysterectomy. Work is kickin my butt.

Anyway...thanks for the questions. They are very good questions.

quote:Originally posted by Shadout Mapes:

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" are the first words of Psalm 22, as xtreem noted. It's a psalm of David to the tune of "The Doe of the Morning" if that means anything.

I'm also very confused at this, in what way did God forsake Jesus? Jesus already told his disciples twice that he was going to die and rise again, why was he then questioning God's plan? And even more importantly, if Jesus did, just for one second, question God's plan in saying that, doesn't that negate the beliefs of the entire Christian church?

Or if Jesus didn't mean anything at all by saying it, wouldn't that be taking the Lord's name in vain? "the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name"...

Read my post above.

I already explained this.

He wasn't questioning God...it was a cry of despair for the burden he was carrying.

THE MAN SWEATED BLOOD.

Imagine the physical pain he was in, to assume the sin of the world !

quote:Posted by niggersexual

[b]Read the story about Satan tempting Jesus in the desert. Satan told Jesus that if he jumped of of a building, God would send angels to save him. Jesusu did not dispute this statement.

Luke 23:46: - Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 19:30 - When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

They say the same thing.

Do you own a Strong's Concordance ? If not, get one. I never knew the Bible like I do now that I have a Strong's.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

A problem with Christ not being God, according to scripture:

I [Jesus] and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

"I [Jesus] have given them the glory that you [the Father] gave me, that they may be one as we are one" (John 17:22)

"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)

"He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." (Colossians 1:15-16)

As well as this, I have trouble with the amiguity surrounding the name "lord". Jesus is referred to as Lord Jesus Christ, and God is also referred to as Lord God Almighty.

A problem about "God turning his back on Jesus when he was on the cross":

“ ‘I will be his father, and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. I will set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his throne will be established forever.’ ” 1 Chronicles 17:13,14

Oh, thank you THANK YOU for saving me the time of showing how God and Jesus were in fact ONE entity.

Now, to address the portion that you did not understand, I want to point out that God did not stop loving Jesus.

He loves us all, even after we choose death over Him.

He loves His creation, and nothing can change that.

It is also reasonable to assume that it would be impossible for Him to stop loving Jesus, since Jesus was a part of Himself.

However, God cannot be in the presence of sin, so SOME form of separation did occur. What kind ? We don't know. I am sure that is dizzying metaphysical logic, and we won't find out until we "get there".

Is that a little more clear ? There is no contradiction.

"There was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenace [appearance] was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow" (Matt. 28:2-3).

Thanks for the lengthy reply, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

*lol*

Did you read said "lengthy reply" ?

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

But one of the core concepts of Christianity is that Jesus was not a man, he was the son of God/God incarnate.

Wrong! He was God in the flesh.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.



John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

He was God, in human form.

He was flawless. Without sin, that's the only difference between us and Jesus, as a human.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

That tells us we shall do what he did when he walked the earth, and GREATER things than he did, because he gave us the ghost. He was one man that died for all men, but now we are many men that are willing to die in his name.

God the son, God the father, God the Holy Ghost. That's your trinity.

Last words shoulda been

"Fuck, wont THIS make one hack of a story!"

or

"I AM the son of God....Kidding!"

There are 7 different references to Jesus' last words in the bible, and all of them are different. No gospel mentions all 7, so you have to read all 4 gospels to read all 7 sayings which are attributed as being the last words of Christ.



1. "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." Lk. 23: 34 Pater, dimitte illis, quia nesciunt, quid faciunt.

2. "This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise." Hodie mecum eris in Paradiso. Lk. 23: 43

3. "Woman, behold thy son." Mulier, ecce filius tuus. Jn. 19: 26-7

4. "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Deus meus, Deus meus, utquid dereliquisti me? Mk. 15: 34 (Mt. 27: 46)

5. "I thirst." Sitio. Jn. 19: 28.

6. "It is finished." Consummatum est. Jn 19: 30

7. "Into thine hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit." In manus tuas, Domine, commendo spiritum meum. Lk. 23:46

I just had a religion test today with this as a question.

But which of those says that he died directly after saying it ?

Only the verse where he says, "It is finished.", or "to you I commend my spirit."

The rest of the verses you gave don't indicate that he died directly after saying them.

I also find it weird that you give the Latin translations, instead of the Aramaic, or even Hebrew...

You really do go to Catholic school, don't ya ?

That's cool.

Actually I just copied and pasted off the first google site that came up.

My religion book wasn't on hand so I couldn't get the passages myself.

About the other passages though. If you take them in look at them more closely, you could see how they could easily be attributed to someone's last words.

On some I don't see the connection, like with "Woman, behold thy son.", but I believe all of them were said by Jesus while he was on the cross. Considering that there are two distinct versions of Jesus' last words, it isn't inconceivable that there could be 7 not so distinct ones.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

Presumably it would be possible for some number of men to roll it back though, it can't have been impossible.

This made me realise something that doesn't make sense though. When the tomb was discovered to be open, it was by two women who were going to embalm Jesus or some such thing (the reson isn't as important as the fact that it was just two women doing it). How could two women have possibly hoped to get into the tomb on their own?

Anybody got an answer to this? I honestly think that this is the best argument against the ressurection I've seen.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

But which of those says that he died directly after saying it ?

Only the verse where he says, "It is finished.", or "to you I commend my spirit."

The rest of the verses you gave don't indicate that he died directly after saying them.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Right. THOSE were he last words.

(Finally agree on something that isn't a disagreement.)

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Actually I just copied and pasted off the first google site that came up.

Hmmm...anyone going to attack HIM for not citing his source ? *laughs*

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:



On some I don't see the connection, like with "Woman, behold thy son.", but I believe all of them were said by Jesus while he was on the cross. Considering that there are two distinct versions of Jesus' last words, it isn't inconceivable that there could be 7 not so distinct ones.

The issue wasn't with what all he said on the cross...it was "what was the last thing" he said on the cross ?

I am pointing out that the gospels are specific in stating that after he said, "It is finished." or "Into your spirit I commit myself.", he died.

They don't say that about anything else he said.

There are also not 2 different things he said before death...just one.

In the Greek,it can be translated both ways that I gave above.

Digital_Savior: Hmmm...anyone going to attack HIM for not citing his source ? *laughs*

He made his quote look like a quote, so I don't see what's wrong with it.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Anybody got an answer to this? I honestly think that this is the best argument against the ressurection I've seen.

The women weren't going to embalm Jesus.

Mark 15:46 - "So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. 47 Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Jeses saw where he was laid.

Mark 16:1-4 - "When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3 and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?" But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away."

Their question of "who would roll away the stone" indicates to us that it was customary to be able to do so, but that they were aware of the fact that it was going to be physically impossible for them to do it by themselves.

Matthew 27:60 - "He (Joseph of Armathea) rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb."

This says that Joseph ALONE rolled the stone into place. By himself ? That turns things around a little, doesn't it ?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Right. THOSE were he last words.

(Finally agree on something that isn't a disagreement.)

Are you correcting me, or are you agreeing with me ? *confused*

I said the exact same thing.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Digital_Savior: Hmmm...anyone going to attack HIM for not citing his source ? *laughs*

He made his quote look like a quote, so I don't see what's wrong with it.

So, italicizing something makes you think that it is a quote ?

Hmmm...

I smell BS.

Because it sounds better "Oh fuck it hurts, it hurts it really fucking hurts"

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, italicizing something makes you think that it is a quote ?

Hmmm...

I smell BS.

Hurray for self-martyrdom!

What he quoted was a direct quote to the bible (which is already sourced) and its Latin translation. That does not amount to any original verse that someone else created (save for the authors of those verses in the bible, which is already sourced). As such a source is not needed.

That IS NOT the same as plagiarizing a whole fucking article and not posting a source.

That's like saying he has to cite a source for, 2 + 4 = 6

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 05-03-2005).]

Crucifees: [singing] Always look on the bright side of life.

I cant post in Snoopys thread wtf? It aint even locked.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

But one of the core concepts of Christianity is that Jesus was not a man, he was the son of God/God incarnate.

i am posting this without having read the thread any farther past the quoted post. Jesus, the SON of God, not God incarnate, became a man in order to die for all of our sins. The only logical answer that i can give to the original, "Why were his last words...." question is this. Jesus was a man, he was physically human, therefore, he is going to feel pain just like one, if you cut him, he will bleed. He was not a super hero per se. When he was being crucified, he was most likely in excrutiating pain, I would consider myself forsaken.

quote:Originally posted by Shaokhano:

his last words where

GODDAMNIT THAT HURT

....hysterical

quote:Originally posted by mondayak:

i am posting this without having read the thread any farther past the quoted post. Jesus, the SON of God, not God incarnate, became a man in order to die for all of our sins. The only logical answer that i can give to the original, "Why were his last words...." question is this. Jesus was a man, he was physically human, therefore, he is going to feel pain just like one, if you cut him, he will bleed. He was not a super hero per se. When he was being crucified, he was most likely in excrutiating pain, I would consider myself forsaken.



You should really read the other posts in a thread if you're going to bother posting yourself.