Centuries ago, the Church made him up (read: the Prince of Darkness is a work of fiction, a fabrication devised by the Catholic Church) in order to solidify their power.

It's true. The only people who truly believed in him were the church officials who weren't in on the conspiracy. Makes you wonder about how many other things they might've made up, doesn't it?

I really hate these stupid blanket statements. As if you know the truth about the entire universe... Whether or not I believe in "Satan" is totally irrelevant, but at least I have the intelligence not to go around making blanket statements about shit I'll probably never even be able to properly grasp.

Anyways, in many ways Satan totally exists and in many ways Satan doesn't. It depends on how you look at him. If Satan is the embodiment of evil then he could be a whole bunch of things. But, if you think of Satan as a giant red monster man with goat legs who lives in the center of the earth, odds are that no, he doesn't exist.

And the history of Satan far preceeds Christianity or even Judaism. I suggest reading A History Of Satanism by Josef McCabe. That should enlighten you a bit.

Cheers,

Lost

My point is that the "Christian" Satan, as in Lucifer, you know, fallen angel and all that, was made up by the Church, so they could execute or excommunicate political enemies for being "devil worshipers." At least try to understand what I'm saying before insulting me.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say that evil is not embodied in anything, or that evil doesn't exist. I'm just pointing out that the Catholic Church has been quite deceptive in the past.

[This message has been edited by God of Toilets (edited 05-03-2005).]

I know totse isn't always known for great posts. But if you are going to attack a main figure that is practically worshiped (anti-worship is still worship) by many groups of christianity, you should probably base it on more than just, "I say so."

You messed up a bit though. Lucifer probably existed, Lucifer was satan, but Lucifer wasn't the Prince of darkness.

The devil's greatest achievement is that he convinced man that he does not exist.

I think the devil's greatest achievement is to come up with some great one liners to keep people from thinking. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

BTW, Great post, it was one of those quality works I was talking about. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Satan is more like the symbol of evil than a real thing I think

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

I think the devil's greatest achievement is to come up with some great one liners to keep people from thinking. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

BTW, Great post, it was one of those quality works I was talking about. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Thanks! It's about time somebody recognizes my genius!

Sincerely,

Satan

quote:Originally posted by God of Toilets:

Makes you wonder about how many other things they might've made up, doesn't it?



Yes, because your irrefutable evidence has just blown my mind !!!!!!

although i do kindof agree with you.

kindof because i am unsure about my religion, and am still contemplating what i believe

Usually when people make sweeping generalizations they provide what we nerds like to refer to as "proof."

How does satan embody evil?

Just because he was disobediant.

Rebelling against authority is evil.

That's the whole point of monotheism.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

How does satan embody evil?

Just because he was disobediant.

Rebelling against authority is evil.

That's the whole point of monotheism.

Which is why Republicans hate potheads.

Dude, have you even looked at a Bible? Catholics did not make satan up. Moses did. Peter did. But most certainly not the Catholic church which came many, many years later.

As an entity--a real being--the embodiment of evil believed in by Christians and Satanists alike--Satan is a myth.

There is simply no such thing. What is this maybe there is and maybe there isn't stuff? An entity either exists or it does not; you cannot have it both ways (unless you are talking about quantum physics. maybe).

The concept of Satan is perhaps useful as a metaphor--but the real deal--the guy with horns and a pitchfork and shit--sorry, no such thing.

Satan is some guy who has goat legs and is in love with saddam hussein.

Seriously though, satan can be interprited in anyway. Whether he is an evil soul you are to be a slave to for all eternity, or just a symbol of evil. it can all depend on your choice of religion.

Look at egyptians, if your sins out weighed the good you did, your soul was supposedly devouered by a monster (i think it was called the ka or something) and you were no longer an existance. So what ever ate your soul could be considered to be a satan.

Everyone has their own little form of their own religion. I was born catholic but refuse to be it, too much made up bullshit, so i'm looking at lutheran right now to find the right way of christanity for me. I don't believe in the bible, and i don;t believe that god would condem you to hell for all eternity. God loves everyone, he would not damn someone to hell for an eternity for anything according to what i believe. I think of it almost like a prision sentence. You can't go to prison for ever. So i believe god wouldn't send you to hell for ever.

According to the Bible, Lucifer (latin for light bearer) was the head choir director in heaven and sexiest (or whatever) of all the angels. He was like god's favorite. He decided he was better than god and tried to take over heaven along with 1/3 of the angels. Satan and his angels fought against Gabriel and his angels, and lost and was cast down to earth while most of the evil angels (demons) were cast to hell. That is what the Bible says. It never says he is the embodiment of evil, or that controls evil or is some sort of "god of evil". The Bible never says hell is eternal. People assume it because it talks about there being no concept of time in heaven, not hell. Do you guys really not know any of this?

And stiletto, the Ka is the part of the three part soul that stays with the mummy and partakes of the sacrifices brought to it by the family, I do believe. Maybe your thinking of ketti satha, who blows fire into your face for all eternity. I don't the the egyptians ever believed that you could go out of existance.

quote:Originally posted by God of Toilets:

Centuries ago, the Church made him up (read: the Prince of Darkness is a work of fiction, a fabrication devised by the Catholic Church) in order to solidify their power.

It's true. The only people who truly believed in him were the church officials who weren't in on the conspiracy. Makes you wonder about how many other things they might've made up, doesn't it?

Ok firstly. Source? Where the hell did you get all this shit from?

Secondly, you're totally 100% wrong. Read Genesis. That's the OLD testament. Not the Gospel or the rest of the Christian-Greek scriptures. Satan == serpent.

If not, who the hell is the serpent?

Ok, the serpent in Genisis is never refered to anything but a snake who walks around and talks. In the Messianic books (old testament books that proficy the crucifixtion, I'm thinking of daniel specifically) it refers back to genisis where it talks about crushing the serpent the the serpents crushed head bruising his heal, the bruised heal being the cricified Jesus, and the crushed head being him defeating sin and death. So satan = sin and death = equals ebodiment of evil? maybe I was wrong. Anybody agree?

Satan did exist in the bible. Lucifer did not. Satan, embodied evil or metaphore, was in revelations and a scattered through the bible in the book of Job, etc. Lucifer appeared only in Isaiah 14, where apparently he was a rogue angel and fell from the heavens. That didn't exactly happened, the verse where that was apparently extracted reads as:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

But 'Lucifer' is a latin word, and the passage was originally written in Hebrew. The original version, in the place of 'lucifer', reads "the morning star", or venus. This was used as an analagy of something that gives off light, such as a teacher, or a king. Remember that Jesus was also refered to as 'the morning star.'

The story in Isaiah wasn't of Satan, but of a fallen babylonian king. Like many passages of the bible, its meaning was changed over time through countless retellings.

Mixedbloods, go read Revelation. All of that stuff about the dragon sweeping a third of the angels from Heaven, htat was the war I was talking about.

...and I have no idea how to quote. Could someone please enlighten me?

Lucifer is a good bible test. Anyone who thinks Lucifer is the prince of darkness, Satan, hasn't read their bible.

If you check the hebrew (instead of believing what many churches tell you) satan wasn't a person or creature but a state of being, it means adversary or opposer, especially of God. Something or someone is "satan" if they oppose God. This can include an angel, not a fallen angel just a normal angel, who disagrees with God, as is seen in Job.

Revelation

Chapter 12

7: And there was a war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (serpent); and the dragon led his angels,

8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found anymore in heaven.

9: And the great dragon (serpent) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan which deceivith the Adamites; and was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

12: ...Woe unto the Adamites living on the earth, and of the sea; for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hat but a short time.



Sounds like a being to me.

...and I know I said Gabriel before, I meant Michael.

...and can somebody post this Job passage, I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

Rev is very very metaphorical (and is also debatable canon). You shouldn't take much in Rev as being literal.

In the NT there is some suggestive evidence that says at that time they may have believed in a leader of demons, but this exists only in the NT and not in the OT. The evidence isn't very solid and it's debatable what some of the blurbs really mean. For the supposed number one advesary of God, and the second most powerful being in the universe, it's strange that no solid case can be made about Satan from the bible.

You probably should read job. It's basically God saying, "Job is a great example of a worshiper." and then one of God's angels says, "Only because he has a good life, if you gave him a bad life he would spit on you." God disagrees and challenges the Angel. They then try to make Jobs life a living hell, trying to prove their point to each other. Job becomes a pawn in a heavenly disagreement (what a kind God http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) )

When you read Job notice that Satan is part of God's angels (not a fallen cast out) he is also trusted by God.

6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied.

10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.

11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Satan, not one of god's angels, said it. It says he came from roaming the earth. How the fuck he got back to heaven, that's the real question.

...and I know Revelation is metaphorical. If you don't think it's talking about what I think it's talking about, then what is it talking about? And all scripture outside of Moses' books (the first five) are debatable canon.

Satan is supposed to be the embodiment of evil and hell is supposed to be this place of eternal suffering, but where is any of this written?

The concept of the devil has to do with man inclination towards sin and defiance of gods will.

If one wants to think of things abstractly god is all those things that create and nurture life and satan is all those things that kill and bring life low.

I've never read anywhere (I've read 7 different versions of the bible) that sex is a sin. It is with another mans wife but that has to do with the breaking of a vow rather than a filthy act.

I'll break it down in a very basic way with my favorite topic Sex (the act of joy and/or procreation) = God. Rape (the act of degradation and dominance/ the hurting of another to falsly uplift the self) = Satan

Sex isn't a sin.

Sexual immorality is a sin.

For having read 7 different versions of it, your understanding of the Bible appears to be limited.

Not trying to attack you, just wish you'd be a little more educated before you try to pass off your "knowledge" as factual.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 05-06-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by MrWonderful:

The devil's greatest achievement is that he convinced man that he does not exist.

I say that all the time !

Touche'...

I love a good debate, and in debates there are no such things as insults.

As for my level of education I was in the ministray for 3 years before I quit due to differences with the church.

Please define Sexual Immorality as you see it.

Premarital sex = sin because you don't know who you're going to marry. If you had sex with someone and then they marry someone else, then you've had sex with someone else's wife/husband.

That is going around in circles.

Once again I don't know where that is written, you (and others) may understand it to mean that.But even Abraham had sex with his wifes servent in hopes that he would have an heir. So I guess he's burning away in hellfire.

Three years in the ministry my Agnostic Buddhist ass. What seven versions of the Bible did you read again?

Know you that the Devil sets you opportunity to overcome same. That Satan, that antichrist, lives not without your free will upon its name.

When he come unto you, and he will and has even before, know you that the direction which you seek is apart from this illusion.

It is apart because it is within, and always has been, and will always shine light before you unto which you may choose to walk upon.

And as the Light shine out onto the shadows, so the Light does shine from behind those same shadows and does pull your own light upon itself.

Like attracts like.

You attract your true self, if it be your will to.

What the fuck is an agnostic buddahist?

I've read it in 4 different languages (which you might be delighted to know changes the meanings and nuances quite a bit) In english I've read the currently accepted versions the NIV, New King James plus the direct translated latin version.

I spent 3 years studying to become a baptist minister, as you may have guessed I quit. My views of other religions, evolution, and racism did not sit well with the elders at my church. Since then I have been studying buddahism but only as a lay follower.

ag·nosti·cal·ly adv.

Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning “without, not,” as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, “knowledge,” which was used by early Christian writers to mean “higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things” hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as “Gnostics” a group of his fellow intellectuals“ists,” as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a “man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,” Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.

Bud·dhism

n.

1. The teaching of Buddha that life is permeated with suffering caused by desire, that suffering ceases when desire ceases, and that enlightenment obtained through right conduct, wisdom, and meditation releases one from desire, suffering, and rebirth.

What four languages? What direct translated latin version? What meanings changed (not nuances, actual meanings)? Go back and read the passages about Abraham having sex with his servant, and what happened because of it. Alot of people believe that the continuous lack of peace in the middle east is due to a curse that god put on Abraham's son. Go look up burning in hellfire too. And Baptists (along with all denominations) suck horribly. Try going to a non-denominational church, they're usually pretty open-minded (especially the one's with like > 1,000 members).

...oh, and I hear that mods don't like it when you stray too far of topic for too long, so um... Satan, yeah.

I didn't have time to read everything, but this is a christian/catholic question. Satan, in the context of satanism, satanism is believe in the existence of evil. So satan kant be real, as a person/animal/living being.

quote:Originally posted by Chavez:

What the fuck is an agnostic buddahist?

I've read it in 4 different languages (which you might be delighted to know changes the meanings and nuances quite a bit) In english I've read the currently accepted versions the NIV, New King James plus the direct translated latin version.

I spent 3 years studying to become a baptist minister, as you may have guessed I quit. My views of other religions, evolution, and racism did not sit well with the elders at my church. Since then I have been studying buddahism but only as a lay follower.



Sucks that you weren't supported. Was your decision to move away from xianity heavily influenced by that? Or was it more due to the more theological issues related to your views?

In the book of Job, the only mention of Satan in the "Old Testament", does not show him as evil, G-d listens to what he has to say and even acts on it, his name "hasatan" translates into "the adversary" thats all. He represents the alternative, what is free will without choice?

Also, someone brought this up, but sex isn't a sin, its a blessing, a good deed, a mitzvah (only in the context of a married couple) and it is doubly so on the sabbath.

They made it all up.

JewDude, satan is mentioned more than once in the old testament. Google "satan in the old testament" for passages.

What the fuck is Frontal Lobe saying a couple of posts back. Cuz if it really is something extra deep, could someone enlighten me a bit, cause that went flying right over me.

This whole debate is rather nonsensical because it is based on the assumption that the Bible is entirely 100 percent true, and not some old fart's nightmare's. I have read more than enough of the Bible and I honestly believe roughly 50 percent of it. Just like the Quran, there is plenty of stuff in there that is based on hearsay and on legends.

Satan exists as a balance to god, I haven't done alot of study on Taoism, on which I believe the whole balance theory is based, but in nature, everything is balanced. Therefore if there is to be a being of extreme good (god) then there has to be a being of extreme evil to balance the other, hence Satan. Every religion calls it something else, but it is all the same, Satan (or whatever you want to call it) is the counterweight to good. Just like we have to give a name to everything, i.e. a board with four legs is a table, so we give a name to all of the so-called "baser" instincts, the primal wants, etc. and that name is evil, bad, Satan, Devil, boogy monster, whatever... I'm bored of this post so I'll shut up.

JewDude, your continual refusal to quit being a prick and writing G-d, without the fucking o is bothering me. Goodnight.

[This message has been edited by crazed_hamster (edited 06-02-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:



JewDude, your continual refusal to quit being a prick and writing G-d, without the fucking o is bothering me. Goodnight.



Its a relegious thing, back off.

quote:Originally posted by Gulielmus:

JewDude, satan is mentioned more than once in the old testament. Google "satan in the old testament" for passages.

However, it's only used in the sense of a unique being in that book.

quote:Originally posted by JewDude:

However, it's only used in the sense of a unique being in that book.

HaSatan. Ouija board. Elvis.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

I really hate these stupid blanket statements. As if you know the truth about the entire universe... Whether or not I believe in "Satan" is totally irrelevant, but at least I have the intelligence not to go around making blanket statements about shit I'll probably never even be able to properly grasp.

Anyways, in many ways Satan totally exists and in many ways Satan doesn't. It depends on how you look at him. If Satan is the embodiment of evil then he could be a whole bunch of things. But, if you think of Satan as a giant red monster man with goat legs who lives in the center of the earth, odds are that no, he doesn't exist.

And the history of Satan far preceeds Christianity or even Judaism. I suggest reading A History Of Satanism by Josef McCabe. That should enlighten you a bit.

Cheers,

Lost

LostCause looks funny.

Oh my word your so right I MUST denounce my Christian ways... {sic}

quote:Originally posted by Random_Looney:

HaSatan. Ouija board. Elvis.

HAHAHAHAHA