I've had this debate numerous times with multiple people, and I thought I'd take it to TOTSE.

People argue with me that Human beings don't have souls, and that we're purely a complex combination of nervous, skeletal, circulatory, digestive, etc., etc., etc., systems.

My viewpoint on this is as follows (heavily borrowed from Hindu Philosophy):

<b>You are not, and cannot be that which you percieve</b>

That is to say, for example, if you see a book lying on a table, it can't be a part of you - you can 'percieve' it. A similar parallel can be drawn to your body. While you can manipulate it, touch it, and see it in the mirror, it is NOT what you are, just something more connected to you than any other object, but still nothing more than that - an object to be used by YOU.

So what is this you? Your mind? Your intellect? For the sake of argument, I'll call the mind that which expresses emotions; someone's late, you're upset. You get dumped, you're mad. You win the lottery, you're ecstatic. You pop E, you're euphoric. Your intellect, on the other hand is your power of discrimination. While your mind may FEEL euphoric, you 'know' that it's drug-induced and not 'real'. While you're hurt and upset for getting dumped 'part of you'<i>knows</i> you deserved it.

While it may seem that this combination of mind and body is "you", it becomes apparent that it's not: The very fact that you can be happy or sad, and realize that it may not be a totally valid feeling tells us that you are NOT your 'mind', and the fact that your emotions can 'get out of hand', causing you to do things you wouldn't otherwise do, intellect notwithstanding leads us to believe that either you are your intellect, and horribly weak (not an acceptible answer), or you are something totally different.

This is where 'the self', 'the soul', or whatever you want to call it comes in. That spark of life in you, that which is your life, the reason you breathe and can operate is your soul. It lets you work your mind, intellect and body to make a whole human being. I don't really know, nor do I care what HAPPENS to the soul/self after you die, this is what I think it actually is.

Comments/Flames/Too-Long-Didn't-Reads?

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So what you have not been able to completely understand as the chemical reactions of the brain and body you have tagged as the soul. My oppinion on this theory really depends on how you go on with it. If you admit that a soul is only the shortcomings of our understanding of ourselves then I'd agree, and then you could possibly go on to say that upon death we completely understand ourselves and whatnot. Although for this theory to make sense scientifically I think it would have to be that we become simpler in old age and upon death we lose much of the mysticism of life and the souls shrinking finally meets up with the conscious. I would not say this can go along with any modern religions, and if you took this to be some proof of an afterlife I'd violently disagree with you. So you potentially have a start to a good theory.

[This message has been edited by T-BagBikerStar (edited 05-14-2005).]

arighty so what exactly does an organism need to qualify to have one of them 'soul' things? or is it only humans that have one?

God made humans with souls...souls are what connect us to God.

He said that He made us in His image, therefor we must have a spiritual identity, as well as a physical one, since God is spirit.

That spiritual identity is our soul. It is the only way God could have communicated with us (via the Holy Spirit) intimately.

Again, this is according to Christianity.

I think the theory presented by the original poster is insightful. It may be off the mark in relation to Christian beliefs, but it retains merit, nonetheless.

so humans are a sort of elitist group cause we got souls am i right?

It has nothing to do with being elite. We are the only one of our kind.

Animals don't have souls, and were put here for the sole purpose of pleasing us. God knew we'd like them...they weren't even meant to be eaten, in the beginning (before the fall of man).

We have souls, and nothing else does. It just is.

We cannot be better than anything else, or worse than anything else, since we cannot be compared to anything else.

guess that means no animal rights huh...

We are to be stewards of our animals. They are a gift, and should be treated as such.

They just don't experience an afterlife like we do.

Are we really superior to animals? We are aware of our own mortality and struggle to find a method to cope with it. People turn to various religions to try to find peace of mind when facing their own death. Animals on the other hand seem to understand the cycle of life. They understand they are once again returning to the earth from which they came, like every living organism. Their bodies providing nutrients so that others may live. They dont try to fight the inevitable and rationalize it to themselves. If there is an afterlife, are humans the most worthy to deserve it? We create devices capable of destroying every living organism on the planet. Alcoholic fathers beat their own wives and children. Is he more deserving of an eternal paradise than the noble dog who will give his life without hesitation protecting his family? Will his

The soul is the mind, and we cannot deny the animals their souls. But, unfortunately, they are not spiritual beings, like us. Man is a spirit, like God. A trinity, in fact, of body, mind/soul, and spirit. Like God, in whose image we were created, not only physically but spiritually.

quote:Originally posted by Pow r T och:

The soul is the mind, and we cannot deny the animals their souls. But, unfortunately, they are not spiritual beings, like us. Man is a spirit, like God. A trinity, in fact, of body, mind/soul, and spirit. Like God, in whose image we were created, not only physically but spiritually.

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

quote:Originally posted by pipedream:

So what is this you? Your mind? Your intellect?

...............

This is where 'the self', 'the soul', or whatever you want to call it comes in. That spark of life in you, that which is your life, the reason you breathe and can operate is your soul. It lets you work your mind, intellect and body to make a whole human being. I don't really know, nor do I care what HAPPENS to the soul/self after you die, this is what I think it actually is.

Comments/Flames/Too-Long-Didn't-Reads?

Good post, good questions http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) How to be objective when one is the subject? Would it be ever possible to be any more than subjective?

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Good post, good questions http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) How to be objective when one is the subject? Would it be ever possible to be any more than subjective?

I would say yes via the device of meditation.

Also, I don't think that we are in possession of souls. I would say that the human being consists of five aggregates: matter, sensation, perception, mental formations, and consciousness. All of the aforementioned are in constant flux; opposing the idea of an eternal soul.

Of course you meant that Buddhist scripture has said that there are five human aggregates.

Right?

Hmm... Humans are animals. Let me explain. What were our objectives (as humans) before modern technology? Hunt, eat, fuck, fight off preditors. Wake, hunt, eat, fuck, fight off preditors. Rinse and repeat. We slowly get to the modern era where it is now Eat, fuck, praise God. You see? We're just animals meant to survive like other animals. Exept now we're WAAAY above any other animal, and have been for so long we just havn't realized it. Our existance on this planet is just to further the human race. Thats why we have morals (well... most people) and thats why we jump when we hear sudden loud noises, and thats why we have alot of our things we have. Whats the most painfull thing you've ever experienced? Getting kicked in the balls right? Yeah, thought so. Do you want to know why this is? Its because its the only thing we NEEEED to further our species. Depressing? Yes. True? I certainly hope so, or I wasted alot of time typing.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

God made humans with souls...souls are what connect us to God.

He said that He made us in His image, therefor we must have a spiritual identity, as well as a physical one, since God is spirit.

That spiritual identity is our soul. It is the only way God could have communicated with us (via the Holy Spirit) intimately.

Again, this is according to Christianity.

I think the theory presented by the original poster is insightful. It may be off the mark in relation to Christian beliefs, but it retains merit, nonetheless

(my bold)

i'm glad to see you didn't try to claim biblical authority for the teaching of the 'eternal soul'.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Of course you meant that Buddhist scripture has said that there are five human aggregates.

Right?

What exactly IS the bhuddist scripture? is there a holy book or something?

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Of course you meant that Buddhist scripture has said that there are five human aggregates.

Right?

Yes Sean http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

What exactly IS the buddhist scripture? is there a holy book or something?

There are several.

I guess you could say the main one is the Dhammapadha.

But there are tons of writings.

A couple other big ones are the Lotus Sutra and the Sutra on a Better Way to Catch a Snake.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

There are several.

I guess you could say the main one is the Dhammapadha.

But there are tons of writings.

A couple other big ones are the Lotus Sutra and the Sutra on a Better Way to Catch a Snake.

I've read some of the Dhammapada and all of the Wonderful Law of the Lotus Sutra. It was riddled with symbolism, and very informative on the differences between Arahants and Bodhisattvas. Although, I've never heard of the Sutra on a Better Way to Catch a Snake. I'll have to look into that one.

quote:Originally posted by SKS_7.62:

Are we really superior to animals? We are aware of our own mortality and struggle to find a method to cope with it. People turn to various religions to try to find peace of mind when facing their own death. Animals on the other hand seem to understand the cycle of life. They understand they are once again returning to the earth from which they came, like every living organism. Their bodies providing nutrients so that others may live. They dont try to fight the inevitable and rationalize it to themselves. If there is an afterlife, are humans the most worthy to deserve it? We create devices capable of destroying every living organism on the planet. Alcoholic fathers beat their own wives and children. Is he more deserving of an eternal paradise than the noble dog who will give his life without hesitation protecting his family? Will his

"Understand" ? Wouldn't that suggest a knowledge of what existence is ?

Animals rely solely upon instinct. There is no understanding involved, and this cannot be proven otherwise.

A gazelle running away from a cheetah surely tells me that they are trying to preserve their own life, and therefor proving that they DO fight to stay alive.

Man's sin does not make him LESS important than anything else. As a matter of fact, sin alone proves the existence of God, but that's another subject.

quote:Originally posted by NurotiK_SykotiK:

I would say yes via the device of meditation.

Also, I don't think that we are in possession of souls. I would say that the human being consists of five aggregates: matter, sensation, perception, mental formations, and consciousness. All of the aforementioned are in constant flux; opposing the idea of an eternal soul.

How did those 5 aggregates come to be ?

quote:Originally posted by Cpt.Winters:

Hmm... Humans are animals. Let me explain. What were our objectives (as humans) before modern technology? Hunt, eat, fuck, fight off preditors. Wake, hunt, eat, fuck, fight off preditors. Rinse and repeat. We slowly get to the modern era where it is now Eat, fuck, praise God. You see? We're just animals meant to survive like other animals. Exept now we're WAAAY above any other animal, and have been for so long we just havn't realized it. Our existance on this planet is just to further the human race. Thats why we have morals (well... most people) and thats why we jump when we hear sudden loud noises, and thats why we have alot of our things we have. Whats the most painfull thing you've ever experienced? Getting kicked in the balls right? Yeah, thought so. Do you want to know why this is? Its because its the only thing we NEEEED to further our species. Depressing? Yes. True? I certainly hope so, or I wasted alot of time typing.

We have been far more complex then our animal counterparts from the very beginning. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

For instance, please prove that humans have ever been without LOVE.

quote:Originally posted by Cpt.Winters:

We slowly get to the modern era where it is now Eat, fuck, praise God. You see? We're just animals meant to survive like other animals. Exept now we're WAAAY above any other animal, and have been for so long we just havn't realized it. Our existance on this planet is just to further the human race. Thats why we have morals

So where does our desires to be creative and artistic come from?

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

So where does our desires to be creative and artistic come from?

Social evolution. But please, show me how everyone has a desire to be creative and artistic.

this is still here? bump.