A little frivolous, perhaps, but still...

what's Christianity's (maybe only certain sects, pardon my ignorance) problem with masturbation? The fact that you're "wasting potential life"? Is it the same vein as premarital sex/sex for pleasure?

This question gets asked every month or so and the general answer is it's not the wasting sperm it the lusting for women you are not married to.

Masterpython, be more vague

- the bibles/churches problem is lust, lust is a sin.

***

Has to do with self-control and restraining one's desires.

Church done told me it was the lusting that made it a sin.

wait a second ! then if your married can you masturbate to your wife if your away on a trip or something?

quote:Originally posted by CBaoth:

wait a second ! then if your married can you masturbate to your wife if your away on a trip or something?

why i everyone looking for loopholes and/or justification? (rhetorical question)

this applies to the "is homosexuality a sin?" threads too.

The church is not (ultimately) who defines sin. God does. The church may be the one that interprets what sin is. But going against God's Will is sin. We are all sinners and because of this, we are all condemned to Hell. The Law is the "mirror" that shows us our sin so that we can realize our need for the Christ.

Once we realize that need, there are only two things (inclusively) that can release us from our damnation:

1)true repentance

2)acceptance (which includes Faith) of the gift of the grace of salvation.

I've heard many people say that Christians only use religion as a "crutch". This is partly true. The need for that "crutch" is only realized from conviction (Rom 7:7-25)...the knowledge

of sin given by the "Law". The agent of conviction is the Holy Spirit. (John 16:7-11)

so what if the chrches interpritation of the will of god is completely wrong? extreame example but what makes the chrch more an authority on what the word of god is that the average joe public whos read the bible? isnt it up to us to interprit it the way we think is right?

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

extreame example but what makes the chrch more an authority on what the word of god is that the average joe public whos read the bible? isnt it up to us to interprit it the way we think is right?

yes and no.

True, they are human and can make mistakes (just like any other human, even average joe public). One thing to consider though, they have studied it more (presumably).

Also, something that i've learned is, as my faith matures, i tend to find that i agree more and more with doctrine. Most of my studying is outside of church. Alot of my ideas of what the Bible is saying, come to me first; and then i look to see if i am in agreement with doctrine. Most times i am-- or atleast on the same basic track.

I have approached it the other way round, at times. Most of those times, i disagreed with doctrine... but over time and study, found that i ended up understanding and agreeing (or atleast leaning more toward agreement) with the (universal) teachings. The ones that tend to be "demoninational differences" are alittle tougher, though.

One example is something that is brought up in this forum regularly... from a strickly Calvinistic view, i would have to agree with Rust (and others) reguarding freewill vs. God's nature vs. His existance/benevolence. But i think that a strickly Calvinistic view is incomplete due to other things in the Bible that indicate (some) freewill.

Also, i'm not sure if you've noticed (or anyone here, for that matter) that even though Digital and I are of different denominations (i know, she is non-denominational), we both do alot of personal study, but we are generally in agreement with each other and with many of the doctrines. {i'm not saying that we are correct. What i'm saying is that i think that is... well, an interesting testimony-- that i look to the scripture before doctrine (i dont know if she does), and that we are in agreement with each other and doctrine... might be something to that}.

If i was right in the first post, then the one who allows/causes anyone (including the church) to interpret scripture, is ultimatly the Holy Spirit (the third person of the Trinity). And if it is the Holy Ghost that allows understanding of scripture, then that understanding must be correct.

But this begs the question, "How do we know whether God is allowing us to understand it or whether, say, the Devil is confusing/decieving the interpretation?" and that is a good point.

Speaking as a fellow sinner, I would have to say, i dont know. My first response would be, pray about it. Second response is, trust God.

Thirdly, search scripture.

I guess that is why i approach it by first reading scripture, then interpretting, and finally comparing my understanding with doctrine. (BTW, sometimes this approach ends up disagreeing with doctrine. In those times i pray and have patience.)

No, LUST is a sin...masturbation requires lust.

quote:Originally posted by CBaoth:

wait a second ! then if your married can you masturbate to your wife if your away on a trip or something?

Actually, no.

The reason is, you are lusting AFTER her, not sharing intimacy with her.

She becomes a sexual object, which strips her of her respect within the institution of marriage, instead of a sexual partner.

The same applies for women of their husband's.

Xtreem -- "The agent of conviction is the Holy Spirit."

I like that.

I'm gonna steal it from you, if you don't mind.

Copying is the highest form of flattery. *winks*

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

[B] yes and no.

True, they are human and can make mistakes (just like any other human, even average joe public). One thing to consider though, they have studied it more (presumably).

thanks for that, sounds fair enough. but then again you CAN take the point of view that the chrch has made some pretty foul choices. anyway>futile to argue. but i agree to some extent... jsut to say that.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

No, LUST is a sin...masturbation requires lust.

wait a second. lust is another form of a wanting desire. is it specific to sex that to satiate that desire is a sin?

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

but then again you CAN take the point of view that the chrch has made some pretty foul choices.

that is one reason why i put the disclaimer "(presumably)".

another reason is that some leaders of the church have at times used their understanding (or lack thereof) for the purpose of power... this may have been one reason that the early catholic church attacked people that went against doctrine as heretics, and that the modern catholic church often discourages reading the Bible yourself... claiming that the layperson is not equipt to understand the Bible.

^^^ Please note, i am not bashing Catholicism in that post. I am trying to make a point that is reflective of both your post and mine.

I do have a few disagreements with Catholicism, but that is way outside the realm of this thread and i think, mostly inappropiate for most of the topics in this forum, for personal reasons. What i mean by that, is Zman and other Catholics in this forum are (i think) here for the same reason that any Christian is here. And that reason is not about power or getting money.

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

wait a second. lust is another form of a wanting desire. is it specific to sex that to satiate that desire is a sin?

No.

Lust after wealth, fame, or anything else for that matter, is sin. It is the DESIRE that is the sin, not the act itself.

It is coveting what you do not have, which is to spit it the face of God, because He gives you everything you need.

You should want for NOTHING.

He says, "Does the sparrow of the field worry about what it will eat, or where it will sleep ? How much greater are YOU than that sparrow ?"

This means that God takes care of His entire creation...so to want something you do not have is a detriment to your relationship with Him, because it lacks trust, and puts more importance in yourself than there needs to be.

I know that was kind of vague, but...I can explain it more if you'd like.

Very good question, by the way.

Thanks for asking it.

Xtreem - I disagree. I haven't ever seen ZMan try to witness.

He is here to defend Catholicism, based on his posts, and nothing more.

I wouldn't have a problem with it if he were trying to explain God, but he doesn't.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Xtreem - I disagree. I haven't ever seen ZMan try to witness.

He is here to defend Catholicism, based on his posts, and nothing more.

I wouldn't have a problem with it if he were trying to explain God, but he doesn't.

I think he has. Gotta remember that he said that he was newly converted (to Catholicism), which means that he is just learning his own walk with God. He has to learn to defend what he knows, before moving on to knowing more... just like all of us. And you know as well as i, it is easy to get sidetracked here, and many of the non-believers bring up some very good points, questions, and arguements.

All Christians need to both answer non-believers and correct each other, which is the main reason that i have mostly stayed out of the conversations with you and Z reguarding Catholics... you have addressed many of the problems that i have, but he has also made many important counterpoints.... but here I go, getting sidetracked LOL

Well, if he has, I stand corrected. I have just never seen it.

Of course he must know what he believes before he can defend it, but he defends it all the time, and I have found very little in what he says to be compelling.

He has yet to show how Catholicism isn't a religion of materialism and idolatry.

I have shown how it IS, many times.

But, I cannot fault him for ignorance, which is all I think it is. (no intended malice)

Now, if he KNEW it was nothing but idolatry, and defended it anyway, then it would border more on stupidity.

I don't find him to be stupid, and admire his conviction. Please don't think the contrary.

It is very difficult not to focus on the finite here on Totse. Overanalyzing semantics is a favorite passtime here. *LOL*

But if Zman believes that Christ can save you, then that is all that matters. The rest is just fluff.

Why aren't you at church, BTW ? *lol*

I'm sick. That's why I'm not there right now.

*taps her foot in uneducated judgement*

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Why aren't you at church, BTW ? *lol*

I'm sick. That's why I'm not there right now.

*taps her foot in uneducated judgement*

well, i could say that church was over almost an hour ago (or over 3 hours ago for early service), but that would be a lie, since it would imply that i went.

the answer is that i got sidetracked here, and i missed it http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

indeed it is..

here's why

One advice that I would like to give you is this: DO NOT try and RESIST the temptation of pornography and masturbation. You must FLEE from it!...RUN!!! In the bible it says to resist the Devil (James 4:7) but you cannot resist temptations. When the temptation arises for it, change your thinking to something else! Do NOT concentrate on the temptation, because you know that the longer you think about the temptation, the temptation will increase. Same deal goes for people who are struggling with weight loss and other things...do NOT think about your problem. RUN AWAY FROM IT! Next time the pornography and masturbation temptation rings you, don't argue with it....don't talk with it....don't listen to it....JUST HANG UP!! I know how it feels when you get sucked into temptation, and you feel like dirt, and you can virtually hear Satan laughing at you, and making you feel dirty and worthless. God also sees this too, but God will still accept you when you come close to Him, and when you "HANG UP" on a temptation and run to God...you will feel such immense joy and happiness, words cannot even describe. In these times, I've visualised giving high 5's to God...that's how awesome it feels. YOU CAN DO IT!... next time when it comes..."change the channel"...."hang up"....and RUN TO GOD!!...and when you do, you'll receive the awesome praise that you've been longing for, because you beat the devil in his game. God bless you and protect you, as you overcome this.. also, One thing which is perceived as that which has been of much help regarding sexual sins ,( or any sin , for that matter ) , is the realization that the temptations to commit such are just like the worm which has been wrapped around a fish hook . Any sense of satisfaction the worm may give , is horribly offset by the barbed piercing hook , and the terrible yanking around to follow . So , what does a fish which has been properly schooled do ? He sees the worm for what it really is - bait , the kind which , if indulged in , makes us to be captive , in a place where our life is tied to constant jeopardy . And that's not even the real reason why being entangled with sexual sins is so bad ! What makes it so bad , is that , while we're tied off on the devil's stringer , we're prevented from being free to experience the fulfilling , rewarding , enhancing , enriching , affirming , illuminating , joy of serving The Lord with the rejoicing of our conscience's testimony , which conveys that Christ's faithfulness is effectually at work in us , manifesting in the most personal and intimate aspects of our being ; and that's the great starting place , for running the race which crowns it's finishers with Eternal Bilss ; which Bliss becomes more apparent the further along the course one runs . Prove that The Lord's Pleasure is far Greater and much, much , much , much .......... more enduring than that of the flesh , this world , or the devil and his cohorts . Stay as far away from that which defiles as possible , keep asking for the Lord to strengthen you with His Spirit , take special note of how things continue to improve overall , the farther we are distanced from meddling with such sin - and be thankful . And use the new found revival to reach out to others who are in need , with whatever the honorable gifts / charitable talents are which God gives to you . If you meet with failure , let godly sorrow have it's way , weep , mourn , cry out for Jesus to deliver you ; then get back up and start running again ; for there's only one solution , and that is to persevere in following after that which has been promised us - namely , that sin will not have dominoin over us , for greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world . And it's high time that we experience this truth individually and effectually , to God's Glory and the Praise of Jesus Christ . Amen . Sex is for babies , and death comes soon enough on it's own . But Jesus is for our Salvation and Deliverance from all that is defiling and condemning in nature . And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. <-----> Matthew 1:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. <-----> Acts 2:21 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. <-----> Romans 6:14 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work . <-----> 2nd Corinthians 9:8 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. <-----> Acts 20:32 As we believe God's Word , that He is Willing and Able , to stengthen us in the inner man by The Power of His Holy Spirit , we are transformed and enabled , for it is Christ in us , doing The Enabling , and we have already seen with our eyes and heard with our ears how that Satan and all his wiles , are no match for The Beloved Son in Whom God is Well Pleased . Amen . For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. <-----> Hebrews 4:15 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. <-----> 1st Corinthians 10:13 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. <-----> James 4:5-10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. <-----> 2nd Corinthians 7:10 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you . <-----> 2nd Peter 3:15 Only let not God's Patience be confused with His Permission . For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. <-----> 1st Thessalonians 4:7 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. <-----> 1st Peter 1:16 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. <-----> Mathew 5:48 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. <-----> Luke 6:36 Also , many failures are linked to an unreadiness to glory only in the Lord , for our long list of errors is meant to instill in us the humility which goes so well with Christ's Righteousness ; once that humility is firmly in place , the pattern of falling short , can be broken , and we are allowed to remain free . For The Lord has taken steps to prevent , " a repeat performance " of the Devil and his angels falling from heaven ; wherefore , we must become " as little children " to enter His Kingdom . ( See Matthew Ch. 18 ) Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. <-----> 1st Peter 5:5 also, For porn, free time is your worst enemy. If you are at the computer with nothing to do, shut it down and go somewhere else. Just get away. Next, you have to fill that free time with something constructive. It doesn't *have* to be reading your bible. Read a book. Do homework. Learn about something something. Masturbation probably is an issue for the majority of teenagers, and quite a few people beyond those years too. It is not a simple matter, and broad applications of scripture and admonitions to stop are not always helpful for many. The terrible recrurring legacy of resolution followed by failure can result in much harm to the faith of those invloved by way of guilt and loss of belief in God's willingness to do something. The first thing to recognise is that people begin to masturbate for different reasons. Some examples are: 1 Sexual abuse 2. Unhappiness, loneliness, inner pain 3. Just curiosity then it becomes a habit 4 During the teenage years when hormones kick in and a person's sex drive is up and running. Each reason requires a different approach. If the underlying contributory factors are not addresed properly efforts to stop are often futile. One's beliefs about masturbation can vary. Amongst the negative views are: 1. It is 'dirty' 2. The fantasies people use are seen as 'lusting' 3. A person is pretty uncomfortable with sexual matters in general. They see masturbation as wrong because anything sexual for an unmarried person is wrong and unclean. 4 Someone from the church has told them it is wrong, but without supporting justification. It is all too easy to sqeeze meanings into some of the broad based Greek words used in the NT to support one's own preconceptions about masturbation, which can arise out of pretty neagtive attitides towards sexual matters in general. People's responses to masturbation differ widely. They can include: 1 Some discover it, indulge, then rationalise it within a more controled frequency and eventually give up when sexual intercourse is available. 2 Some carry the practice into their marriage. This needs serious evaluation. 3 Some become hooked on porn - a very negative consequence. Thus, masturbation is not a single issue. Nor is the way it should be addressed. Most importantly, masturbation cannot be addressed healthily unless some clear indication of how a teenager handles their normal sexuality is given. Teenagers are not sexually neutral or inert. Sexual feelings and responses will be a regular part of most teenagers lives. Just how do they deal with them? I have read many of the posts on this thread, and on others, corresponded with some, and I can recognise some of these factors in the replies. I trust that readers will get some insights that may be helpful to them in sorting out this issue in their lives. Blessings on all those Christians who genuinely want to please God with their lives, their sexuality included MOST IMPORTANT Why Is Masturbation Sin? Masturbation is a sin because a person consents in their own heart to take sexual gratification from impure thoughts. It is sinful to indulge in the sexual pleasure that is derived from the satisfaction of using one's imagination to FIXATE upon obscene images, or obscene actions, or forbidden sex. Lustfully fixating upon genitals, or sexual acts, is idolatry. This is called: the worship of obscenities. This is the sin of those addicted to pornography. That's often a "guy" thing. Alternatively, taking delight in the lust of another, or consummating a fantasy of forbidden sexual romance, is the sin of adultery in the heart. That's often a "girl" thing. The act of masturbation is an ******d act that confirms that one's heart and mind has consented to an inward act of impurity. Only by consenting to an imagined act of impurity can one attain orgasm. To attain sexual release, a person's will consents to LOVE something that is sexually impure. A sin consists in loving something that God hates, or in hating something that God loves. Because God is pure love, in one sense there is no hatred in God. But there are actions that God regards with a COMPLETE ABSENCE of love. There are many things that men can do that God does not love. In so far as God does not love a human action, according to our way of thinking it can be said that God hates it. These actions are sins. They are often as hateful to men as they are to God! What are some things that God does not love? What are some things that, according to our human way of speaking, we might say that God hates?? Above all, God hates falsehood. God hates any form of lie, rejoicing in cruel lies, or in telling harmful lies about others. He hates any kind of injustice perpetrated upon his children! God hates cruelty, or the defrauding of a worker of his just wages. God hates it when one person entices another person to do something harmful to himself or others: like to worship evil, or to steal, or to lie, or to take drugs. God also hates impure sexual lust because lust is a false pretense of love. It is a gross and disordered counterfeit of what should really be a sentiment of holy love. Lust consists in fixating on the body of another human being as a sexual object - solely for sexual gratification. When a person lusts, he is making no lasting commitment to the other human being. He is regarding the other human being's body as a sexual object to be used for his own gratification - but nothing more! Outside of marriage, a person who lusts is acting as if he would take another person sexually to be his spouse: but he has absolutely no intention of actually doing so. That is why LUST IS A LIE. When the subject of masturbation arises, it always refers to stimulating one's self for the gratification of sexual lust, or in stimulating one's self sexually while fantasizing about the lust of another person. In impure sexual fantasy, a person uses his own imagination as a pornographic tool to give his body the ability to attain sexual gratification. In reality entertaining lustful fantasy is embracing a falsehood of the heart and mind, in an act of abuse of his own body in order to attain selfish sexual gratification. This is sexual idolatry! God hates falsehood - especially worshipping a false god! This is why God hates impurity in all it's forms. God hates the worship of ugliness, or obscenity, or bestiality. A person who might sexually gratify himself while looking at bestiality is acting as if bestiality is a good thing - when it is a hateful thing! In the same way: lustfully fixating upon lurid sexual pornography is a behavior that pretends that some obscene sexual image, or a lurid posture, or an obscene action is a good thing, when they are nothing but obscene and hateful images! These images are used as objects of false worship. These obscene images, be they real, photographic, or imaginary, are the objects of the "worship of obscenities" specifically referred to in the Bible. Do not be deceived! Those who willfully, and habitually indulge in these acts of impurity, without repentance, will incur eternal damnation. (Rev. 21:8) God hates pornography because it is used to degrade human beings: both men and women. The sole purpose of hard-core pornography is to create and inflame degrading sexual lust, or to invoke unholy gratification by the enjoyment taken in the degradation of another person. Indulging in impure lusts, or taking delight in the lust, or degradation of another person constitute the sins of impurity. Masturbation severely damages a person's ability to accomplish the intended purpose of loving marital sexuality. Holy sexuality is the loving donation between a man and wife of their own bodies to one another. In marriage it may be enjoyed for holy procreation, or to express romantic love, or simply for the delight that the freedom marriage affords the spouses to release the tensions of life. It may even be an act of charity! But it is always a privileged act of special intimacy reserved for spouses alone. Masturbation, by it's very nature clouds and degrades the purpose and privilege of married sexuality. Masturbation is a solitary act of gratifying one's own physical urge. Performed as a solitary act, even in the married state, it degrades the place of honor of the spouse! It often serves to sexually replace the spouse entirely! This is because masturbation trains a person to abuse his own sexual powers outside the intended order of God, in a selfish solitary way. If a Catholic has committed sins of masturbation, he must confess these sins in the confessional in this way: "I have committed sins of impurity with myself (mention a specific number)." If a non Catholic has committed sins of masturbation, he must humbly kneel down and beg pardon for his sins, and pray to be delivered of such temptations in the future. Preferably, he would seek out a trusted person who understands this sin: and confess this sin or habit: as is appropriate. "Confess your sins one unto another, and you shall be healed." One must NEVER describe his sexual sins in such a way that it might be an occasion of sin to the confessor! One must never mention names, or details: just the generic name of the sin: and nothing more. If there are circumstances which make any sin more especially grievous, then one must mention WHY his sin is more grievous - but must never he be graphic or explicit about the acts themselves. One must never provide images which would pollute the soul of a confessor. A trained confessor has heard these sins tens of thousands of times. He does not want graphic details: nor is the divulging of details appropriate at all! Rather - the confessor is there for the sinner who must honestly accuse himself before God, by submitting in humility to the witness of the confessor. Here, honesty is critical. Intentionally withholding any grievous sin renders a confession null. It is only the sinner who is healed by his forthright admission of his sin in the presence of a person who only acts as a witness of his remorse. There are many sins which, at first, seem to be most embarrassing to confess. But there is no sin that in it's nature is not common to all men. Every confessor has heard every variant of every sin hundreds, if not thousands, of times before. Absolution, and sacramental forgiveness comes only from Christ. For Catholics this is always assuredly accomplished by sacramental absolution given by the priest, who speaks not for himself, but for Christ - as an assurance to the person that his sins are indeed forgiven by his humble confession, and by the power of this sacrament. This particular sin is the most frequently mentioned sin by men in the confessional. It IS a very common sin. Usually, it is a mortal sin. If a person is in a state of grace, and is striving to remain pure, it may not be a mortal sin if suddenly, almost spontaneously, one looses control at a moment of weakness. In such instances a person may not have given "full consent of the will." These unplanned venial wounds, however, are often followed by acts that ARE mortal sins. Once the spontaneous physical impulse has passed, a person may continue to masturbate only to satisfy unnecessary carnal lusts that are intentionally entertained! If these acts are done with decided forethought, then the will has certainly fully consented to commit them. As such, they are definitely impure and mortally sinful. Therefore, ordinarily, if Catholic people have committed sins of masturbation, they should NOT receive the Sacrament of Holy Communion until they have gone to Confession. Holy Communion is a very private thing - and no one should ever feel compelled to receive Holy Communion: no matter what the circumstance. It is most inappropriate to ask another "why did he not receive communion?" Such questions are ignorant, inappropriate and absolutely outside the bounds of any relationship whatsoever. Such matters are between the soul and God alone. Even wondering about such things is absolutely ignorant and inappropriate. A teen who feels he should decline to receive Holy Communion in the company of nosey parents performs an act of heroic virtue! Attending weekly mass is always an obligation. But, receiving Holy Communion is not! In Hispanic communities, usually only about 1/4 of the assembly actually choose to receive Holy Communion. It is more ordinary for Hispanics NOT to receive communion, than it is to do so. Their reasons are their own: and their reasons are absolutely private and of no concern at all to anyone else. the above, im not sure of 1. I saw one verse from the bible there. 2. The verse wasn't even quoted. 3. The verse was taken out of context and used to portray 05/05/16-17:54

quote:Originally posted by ck_psy_sjk:



indeed it is..

here's why

One advice that I would like to give you is this: DO NOT try and RESIST the temptation of pornog

<<snipped>>

rse from the bible there. 2. The verse wasn't even quoted. 3. The verse was taken out of context and used to portray 05/05/16-17:54

I read only about the first 4 lines. Helpful bit of advice: paragraph structure please.

Also, (and i know i can be long winded at times), try to be alittle more concise. Not many people in TOTSE will even consider reading what you have to say, if it looks like they will have to work hard to read a statement... many here, tend to be here more for arguement's sake, than for being "converted".

its not really a conversion thing..

its more like.. why masterbation is bad.. etc..

The issue is the destruction or waste of sperm without it reaching a woman's body. If you recall Genesis 38:7-10, God killed Onan for spilling his sperm on the ground rather than getting his brother's wife pregnant after his brother died as God had commanded. Jews traditionally attributed this to his having spilt his seed in addition to his direct disobeyance of God's command. Also, ejaculating outside of a woman's body was for a long time thought to make you tameh or 'ritually impure' *winks at T-Bag.* As a result of this, Jews forbid condoms, though they allow diaphragms and other forms of contraception. I can only imagine the Christian doctrine evolved in much the same way.