The human ego..... prove me wrong bitches....

the human ego is a product of the human. Thus making humans the root of all evil.

quote:Originally posted by asterisk:

the human ego is a product of the human. Thus making humans the root of all evil.

Well, since humans are the product of Creation, then God also created evil...

And God also says that in His Word.

But can you prive god created humans?

quote:Originally posted by asterisk:

But can you prive god created humans?

Can you prove that He did not?

Ignorance, therefore god(s).

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Ignorance, therefore god(s).

no rust, i basically said to him that i could not prove that God did Create, just like he can not prove that God did not Create.

There is no "evil" you idiot. "Evil" is a control device.

quote:Originally posted by Angiospermicidal:

There is no "evil" you idiot. "Evil" is a control device.

The only way evil is subjective, is if God does not exist. If God exists, evil also exists.

I think it's a latin word...

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Ignorance, therefore god(s).

Ego, therefor NO God.

False humility, therefore BULLSHIT.

I'll prove you wrong, bitch. Evil doesnt exist.

quote:Originally posted by Adorkable:

I'll prove you wrong, bitch. Evil doesnt exist.

how so?

quote:Originally posted by Berto2112:

how so?

Is murder evil? If so, what's murder? And what separates murder from forms of killing that are acceptible? Who determines what forms of killing are acceptable?

Why do no two societies have the same moral set if good and evil are not subjective? Why is it evil for humans to kill their young, but just natural for animals to? Why do dolphins, a creature not believed to be influenced by an inward struggle of morals (specifically God vs. anti-christs), gang up and torture a killer whales' calf in front of its mother, leaving it for dead?

What separates instincts from conscious thoughts? And are instincts, something we have no real control of, subject to God's laws? Masturbation, unchecked procreation, gluttony, and greed...all by-products of our primary instinct (self-preservation), are they evil just because they're not the most constructive way of satisfying our instincts?

Western ideologies suck anus; anything that relates to our instincts and animalism is considered evil unless the connection is masked well enough; then it's considered good.

Altruism does not exist; every last action you will ever take in your entire life will be for the sole purpose of benefiting you; even the people who jump in front of bullets.

^well said.

To say something is "Evil" then we must first define "Evil". "Evil" is a perfect term. As humans are imperfect beings we cannot define a perfect word so who are any of us to call some thing "Evil".

On the other hand if you wish we could for arguement sake define Evil as all the things that society veiws as wrongs. In which case it is not the human ego that causes these precived wrongs but human greed and self centeredness. (See the end of the previous post.)

After that if you must you can tie {insert deity here} into it by saying "humans were created by this deity, and given their emotions by this deity, so the deity must be the root of all "Evil"

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Why do no two societies have the same moral set if good and evil are not subjective?

Rom 2:14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;

quote:Originally posted by Specter:

After that if you must you can tie {insert deity here} into it by saying "humans were created by this deity, and given their emotions by this deity, so the deity must be the root of all "Evil"



already said, in the 3rd post of this thread:

quote:Well, since humans are the product of Creation, then God also created evil...

And God also says that in His Word.

GREED

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Ego, therefor NO God.

No.

No proof, therefore no god until proven otherwise.

As if not believing in something illogical was a bigger example of ego than believing that a god designed every intricate aspect of our lives, and not only that, but he based our image in his image... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

P.S. You still owe me a reply.

For the last fucking time, you can't claim your fucking holy book referring to something proven as it being true! If I write a book that says 1+1=2, the sky is blue and I'm motherfucking Jesus, does that make me motherfucking jesus? NO! That's false logic, people.

Not to say that it can't be right, but just that you can't prove it right with self-referential, circulatory bullshit. I like you, D_S, xtreem, because you can really heat up an argument and make it worth fighting for, but don't heat it up with false assumptions of logic.

But, I digress. "Evil" does not exist. If anyone can concretely prove the existence of any "evil" without a relgious or philosophical aid of any sort, then I will bow to him. However, I do not think this can be done without dipping into the realm of moral absolutism, which is the most flagrant piece of bullshit without a religious or philosophical backing (which can't be used for this test http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)) that it actually makes babies want to die of rabies.

QUOTE Originally posted by Gorloche:

For the last fucking time,

It's about time that we got to the last time... http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

you can't claim your fucking holy book referring to something proven as it being true!

This goes for all printed material, then; doesnt it?

And any statement,too.

So, what do we do now?

.

.

.

.

.

I'm bored, let's get back to the topic.



If I write a book that says 1+1=2, the sky is blue and I'm motherfucking Jesus, does that make me motherfucking jesus? NO! That's false logic, people.

I'll try to stpo being silly now. This is how i'm looking at it.. :If the creator God dictated His word, it is true. If He put facts in His Word (i.e. 1+2=2, sky= blue, and you being Jesus, etc), then it is not circular to use those facts toward logic. What i'm saying here is that my starting point is that God's Word is true; and i'm using the facts that God put in His Word to show that truth. I am not looking at the facts in His Word first, but the Truth.

You are right, it would be circular if i used the facts to prove the Truth. But the facts are there for the sake of showing (not proving) that it is the Truth. And i know, it is a fine line.

I like you, D_S, xtreem, because you can really heat up an argument and make it worth fighting for,

thank you. But with all due respect, i am not here for the sake of arguement. Nor am i here for the sake of approval. (i'm trying to say this with the utmost respect and kindness).

I am here only as His servant; to sow.

But, I digress. "Evil" does not exist. If anyone can concretely prove the existence of any "evil" without a relgious or philosophical aid of any sort

Your statement is philosophical, so i think it's fair to respond with: "The only way evil is subjective, is if God does not exist. If God exists, evil also exists."

However, I do not think this can be done without dipping into the realm of moral absolutism, which is the most flagrant piece of bullshit without a religious or philosophical backing (which can't be used for this test http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)) that it actually makes babies want to die of rabies./QUOTE

I think you are right, without religious or philosophical backing i too, don think it can be done.

But with philosophical backing, i think i might be able to show the possibility of evil

from an asthetic observation:

Young boys have no problem pulling the wings off of flys, but few (i think) will violate a butterfly (i could be wrong, i have not studied little boys with butterflys... i'm making a guess).

Also, some people think that abortion is ok because they do not equate the fetus as human, but most people would be horrified to see (or commit the act) a new born cleaved in half with a sword.... Again, i havent taken a survey (or done a demonstration), so this is a guess too.

quote:The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by "God" one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying . . . It does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity.

Carl Sagan

quote:Worlds and particles, bodies and beings, time and space: All are transient expressions of the Tao.

~ Lao Tzu

Whatever about fundamentalist nuts, why the fuck do atheists insist on conceiving of god as some kind of person? It must be the most monstrously self absorbed display of egotism possible.

The universe exists. You are alive. The 60 or 70 years you live from the day you're born, that's a goddamn religious experience. The mysteries of creation are in your face, this world has countless fascinating secrets to chase and more spectacular truths for you to behold than you could possibly achieve in one lifetime, but people still sit around bickering over spiritual interpretations that are over 2000 years old.

Truth is relative, there is no "absolute" evil or "absolute" good. You, yourself, have inbuilt instincts for what is right and what is wrong, and to obey anything else is MADNESS. The only definition of evil that makes sense is knowing better, and doing something wrong anyway. But even at that, there is no scorekeeper god hiding up in the clouds to keep lists running of who's been naughty or nice, what, do you base your interpretation of god on SANTA CLAUS?

Find your own mantra, invent your own god, do what feels right, and try not to hurt people. As for the rest, let the idiots waste their time arguing it until they die of old age and turn to dust, their lives passing in the blink of history's eye, accomplishing nothing more than a feeling of self righteousness.

QUOTE Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

The universe exists. You are alive. The 60 or 70 years you live from the day you're born, that's a religious experience.

Naw, if God does not exist, then it is an insignificant speck of time. If God does not exist, nothing really matters. Not a life, or lives, a legacy, or accomplishments.. not even the universe. The only true purpose is if He has a purpose for us. And no, this is not a suicidal or "i hate my life" statement. I have had a great life. I look forward to more of it, God willing. And i look forward to His plan after i die.

The mysteries of creation are in your face, this world has countless fascinating secrets to chase and more spectacular truths for you to behold than you could possibly achieve in one lifetime,

Agreed!!

Truth is relative, there is no "absolute" evil or "absolute" good.

Again, if God does not exist, then you are right. But if He does exist, then He determines what is "absolute".

You, yourself, have inbuilt instincts for what is right and what is wrong, and to obey anything else is MADNESS.

I think it is a good thing that the courts do not agree with you, cuz if they did, anyone could "get away with murder" simply using the defense, "it felt right to me".

The only definition of evil that makes sense is knowing better, and doing something wrong anyway.

What about crimes of passion? In those times, you may not even know that it is wrong. Before and after, maybe. But not nessesarily.



But even at that, there is no scorekeeper god hiding up in the clouds to keep lists running of who's been naughty or nice, what, do you base your interpretation of god on SANTA CLAUS?

I'm hoping you may reconcider your view on the "scorekeeper". Hopefully you have time left in your life.

As far as Santa Claus, i think that it is an evil icon, "invented" by the Devil to accomplish exactly how you have used it in your statement.

invent your own god,

An invented god is just as useless as a non-existant god. There is no purpose to invent one.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

QUOTE Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

[b]Naw, if God does not exist, then it is an insignificant speck of time. If God does not exist, nothing really matters. Not a life, or lives, a legacy, or accomplishments.. not even the universe. The only true purpose is if He has a purpose for us. And no, this is not a suicidal or "i hate my life" statement. I have had a great life. I look forward to more of it, God willing. And i look forward to His plan after i die.

There you go with the Mr God this, Mr God that... The statement "if god does not exist, nothing matters" is simply an extension os the reason why many people believe in Mr God, as a crutch to give their lives meaning. The problem with this is that doing so comes at a cost, and that cost is the equivalent of putting your consciousness in a cage. But really, if it works for you and makes you happy then it's all good http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Again, if God does not exist, then you are right. But if He does exist, then He determines what is "absolute".

Whether the hypothesis of a Christian god is proven or not, and since that god didn't write the bible himself it IS a hypothesis, whatever he has to say on the subject is beyond our capacity to know. What I'm getting at is: do you have the Christian God's home phone number? We exist without direct contact, and if the Bible is strong enough evidence to believe in simply by its own merits then so is the Koran, the Vedas, the various Sutras... Whenever I hear fundamentalist Christians telling people "what God believes", "what God wants" etc I practically shit myself. If you think about it, that is the most arrogant thing a human being can possibly do, to put words in their god's mouth.

quote: I think it is a good thing that the courts do not agree with you, cuz if they did, anyone could "get away with murder" simply using the defense, "it felt right to me".

Well now, if you're going to turn what I said into a universal law to judge it, then you can't simply ignore the part where I also said "try not to hurt people".

But that aside, the legal system is utterly provisional and exists by necessity, there are stronger cases to argue for it being arbitrary than for it being a system of true justice. But this is a complicated issue, if any law students here have studied jurisprudence maybe they could explain it better than me.

quote:What about crimes of passion? In those times, you may not even know that it is wrong. Before and after, maybe. But not nessesarily.

Crimes of passion are, in some countries at least, considered as mitigating circumstances. I know for example that in Italy if a man walks in on some random guy having sex with his wife, and he attacks said dude, it is considered much less harshly in the eyes of the law than if it had happened under more regular circumstances. For all our attempts at approaching high moral values, we are still consciousness inhabiting animal bodies. During a crime of passion for example, if the emotional response is strong enough the limbic system can "hijack" control from the prefrontal cortex, resulting in a person literally acting based on what they feel and not what they think.

But even in more strict countries, a successful defense on the basis of insanity ALWAYS prevents the person from being treated like a regular criminal.

Neither of these cases fit with my definition for evil.



quote:I'm hoping you may reconcider your view on the "scorekeeper". Hopefully you have time left in your life.

As far as Santa Claus, i think that it is an evil icon, "invented" by the Devil to accomplish exactly how you have used it in your statement.

Uh... this attitude of yours is exactly why I got disillusioned with Christianity when I was a kid. If I don't hear an argument that convinces me emotionally and intellectually, or I don't come to such an argument on my own, then I'm not going to believe whatever it is. And if someone tries to make me believe by scaring me with stories about torment and suffering in an afterlife, where a big red boogyman is going to stick a flaming trident up my bunghole, then I'm going to get very fucking angry at that person, because I consider this a devious and poorly disguised attempt to control my personal choices over what I believe in and how I behave.

In the nicest possible way: fuck you and your ghost stories.



quote:An invented god is just as useless as a non-existant god. There is no purpose to invent one.

What... you can have one, but I can't? http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)



[This message has been edited by imperfectcircle (edited 05-24-2005).]

BRAVO! that was awesome^^^

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Rom 2:14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;

Wait...that passage is utter bullshit.

I am a gentile, I have not the law. Everything I will ever do will be 'by nature' as any natural conscious being will be the product of genetics (nature) and environment (nature...yes, even skyscrapers and pollution are part of nature*), but I sure as fuck don't follow the Bible.

*bird nests are natural, but our homes and shit are called man-made? What the fuck? We're just utilizing the shit around us the same way all other animals do: to our benefit! Just because we have more thinking power doesn't mean our crafts are not natural.

quote:Originally posted by MIND:

BRAVO! that was awesome^^^



If that was in response to my post, then thankee sir http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

PS I'm drunk as shit. I've got "Tony's theme" by the Pixies blasting through my stereo at full blast, and it's... sweet http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

fuck..... ive started some seriously good shit here http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Ignorance, therefore god(s).

A therefore B!!! PWNED!!!

I think i may have been less than clear, so i'll try to explain alittle better.

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

There you go with the Mr God this, Mr God that... The statement "if god does not exist, nothing matters" is simply an extension os the reason why many people believe in Mr God, as a crutch to give their lives meaning. The problem with this is that doing so comes at a cost, and that cost is the equivalent of putting your consciousness in a cage. But really, if it works for you and makes you happy then it's all good

Show me how something matters if there are no absolutes. Cure cancer. Irradicate all disease. Without absolute purpose, all is in vain.

Whether the hypothesis of a Christian god is proven or not, and since that god didn't write the bible himself it IS a hypothesis,

Let's, for instance, say that He did write the Word Himself. Unless each and every person in history saw Him write it, it would still be a hypothesis, and subject to faith.

whatever he has to say on the subject is beyond our capacity to know. What I'm getting at is: do you have the Christian God's home phone number?

That could be true if He were not the Personal, Father God. But He gave us His Word, and proof through His Creation.

And yes, He is on "speed dial". It is called prayer (and just so you know, for it to be a twoway conversation, i have to listen.. not just talk). But until one knows Him, that too can be called a hypothesis.



We exist without direct contact, and if the Bible is strong enough evidence to believe in simply by its own merits then so is the Koran, the Vedas, the various Sutras...

Right now, all i'm going to say about this, is that, by there very nature, they can not be all correct.

Well now, if you're going to turn what I said into a universal law to judge it, then you can't simply ignore the part where I also said "try not to hurt people".

It is perfectly fair to ommit your comment, "try not to hurt people", since you also said, " You, yourself, have inbuilt instincts for what is right and what is wrong, and to obey anything else is MADNESS."...

Let me rephrase: you say that it would be madness for one to obey anything besides ones own inbuilt instincts, but then you turn around and tell me to "try not to hurt people".

Also, the instincts in young children tend toward, "MINE" and "ME". They have to be taught to be nice to others.

But the point i was trying to make, is that you said that there is no 'absolute good' or absolute evil'.. in other words, 'good' and 'evil' are subjective, and if we all have 'inbuilt instincts' those too would be subjective. Subjective to our whims and emotions and fantasies. Subjective to stubbing our toe or cutting ourself while shaving.. you name it. And, so too, would be our reactions (and too a point, they are).

So what i was saying is that if our 'inbuilt insticts' are subjective, and we commit a crime, then it would be a perfectly valid defense to tell the judge, "i had a bad hair day or something".

But that aside, the legal system is utterly provisional and exists by necessity, there are stronger cases to argue for it being arbitrary than for it being a system of true justice. But this is a complicated issue, if any law students here have studied jurisprudence maybe they could explain it better than me.[b]

Just so you know, I wasnt trying to start a debate on the legal system. And i wasnt trying to point out (my percieved) flaws in that system. I agree that it is necessary and provisional. I was just (poorly) trying to explain that each person has different 'inbuilt instincts', and that without 'absolutes', any reason for doing something would be a "good" reason from one side of the coin, and a "bad" reason from the other side.

Societies legal systems are a human attempt to make an approximation of "absolutes" based on what society (as a whole) consider "right" and "wrong".

[b]"Crimes of passion are, in some countries at least, considered as mitigating..."

I was just responding to this:

[quote]The only definition of evil that makes sense is knowing better, and doing something wrong anyway.

To which i still ask, "What about crimes of passion? In those times, you may not even know that it is wrong. Before and after, maybe. But not nessesarily".

Maybe, in this case, it is me who is misunderstanding your answer. Can you please clearify it for me?

Uh... this attitude of yours is exactly why I got disillusioned with Christianity when I was a kid. If I don't hear an argument that convinces me emotionally and intellectually, or I don't come to such an argument on my own, then I'm not going to believe whatever it is. And if someone tries to make me believe by scaring me with stories about torment and suffering in an afterlife, where a big red boogyman is going to stick a flaming trident up my bunghole, then I'm going to get very fucking angry at that person, because I consider this a devious and poorly disguised attempt to control my personal choices over what I believe in and how I behave.

My attitude was honestly not an attempt to control you or to scare you into belief. It is truely my hope.

I have said before, i do not have the authority or the ability to convert anyone. No human does. That 'job' is God's, and God alone.



quote:quote:An invented god is just as useless as a non-existant god. There is no purpose to invent one.

What... you can have one, but I can't?

LOL i figured someone would say something like that (and i'm glad it was you).

Even so, i thought it was cute.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Wait...that passage is utter bullshit.

I am a gentile, I have not the law. Everything I will ever do will be 'by nature' as any natural conscious being will be the product of genetics (nature) and environment (nature...yes, even skyscrapers and pollution are part of nature*), but I sure as fuck don't follow the Bible.

*bird nests are natural, but our homes and shit are called man-made? What the fuck? We're just utilizing the shit around us the same way all other animals do: to our benefit! Just because we have more thinking power doesn't mean our crafts are not natural.

That passage was using the word 'nature' the same way we would use the word 'conscience'.

In verse 12, Paul points out that anyone who sins, whether they know the Law or not(Hebrew Law, for anyone coming in, in the middle of the show), will be condemned because of their sin.

Verse 13 says that the important part is to do what the Laws' intention is, knowing it isnt good enough.

You already saw verse 14, and as i've explained, nature is conscience.

Now lets look at the rest of what is in parenthesis; and then then end of the sentence..

Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);

Rom 2:16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.

Hex, i'm going to hold off right here. I'm not sure how to put my thoughts down in words, without possibly confusing what i've posted to imperfectcircle.

I'm arguing simply that my conscience is not the same as yours; our nature is...that is to preserve the self. You preserve yourself through religion; it gives you what your mind needs to stay in shape and keep you from offing yourself: purpose. I don't need a purpose to live, so religion is out of the question for me...but what I do need to live is constant discovery, hence my affinity for circling through galaxies of drug varieties, burning myself out in textbooks, driving all over the fucking place, just absorbing all I can...all to experience a different take on life. Sure, it's harmful in the mid-term look; but if I lived a normal life I'd have killed myself by now. I need an ever-changing life to sustain my existence; a crutch within my personality that results from my genetics and my environment. Your crutch is purpose, mine is exploration.

If I'm not making sense, that's fine.

I really wish humans could read eachother's minds...if you knew my thoughts and emotions you would understand what I'm trying to say perfectly, but English is a shitty language with nowhere near as many words as there are emotions.

I guess I'll try and put it simple: You and I are just alike; we're at the base, scared fuckin' animals. The influences in our lives have just led us to different means of masking our fear. Whether or not our takes in life are correct or wrong matters nothing to me...as selfish as I am, you being another human just as I am human inspires me to hope that you can some day accomplish the same goal I'm trying to through whatever means are necessary...if faith works for you, that's awesome; but I've tried before, and it just can't take me where I want to go. Best of luck in your journeys.

Peace out Totse...first farewell was several years ago, now I bid you adiue once again. Perhaps in another couple years I'll return, eh? Ah hell...I might still lurk every once in awhile.

QUOTE Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

I'm arguing simply that my conscience is not the same as yours; our nature is...that is to preserve the self.

Well, Adam, i realize that you understand what i am saying; "that God instilled conscience and self-preservation in all of us". And just so you know; i, also,understand what you're saying.

You preserve yourself through religion; it gives you what your mind needs to stay in shape and keep you from offing yourself: purpose.

In a way, you might be right, but this wasnt what i meant as "purpose". I really was not meaning it as self-purpose.. i was trying to explain it from the "big-picture"-- an "all or nothing" big picture.

Maybe i can try to explain it starting from a small-picture sort of way.

When i was i kid, i was a pretty good swimmer. Out of 20 some swim meet that i went competed in, i took first in all but three (two races were not firsts because i was new to racing and (1)ran into the rope (backstroke) (2) didnt know how to do racing turn. --the third one, i just got beat.

Being good at swimming gave me pride. But that "purpose" was good, only for myself (and the pride of my parents)

The same would, more or less, apply to a gold medal winner in the Olympics. That "purpose" is fleeting and only serves the Olympian's Country until the next Olympics.

Now let's say that you invented a drug that cured cancer, Aids AND the common cold. If there is no God and no After-life, did it really matter? You may have prolonged the life of a few (zillion) people, and maybe spared a few from some sorrow. You would even have a legacy, that lived beyond your years.

But in the end, the lives you saved.. would not be saved..they'll still die. The sorrow that you spared, is really just postponed.

And your legacy, even though it out lives you, can not be enjoyed by you, past your death. And eventually, 1000's or millions of years down the road.. even that legacy may die and be forgotten.

I'm not trying to say, "belief in God" gives people "purpose" (which it does). I am saying that "if God does not exist" all is vainity and frivolous.

...but what I do need to live is constant discovery, hence my affinity for circling through galaxies of drug varieties, burning myself out in textbooks, driving all over the fucking place, just absorbing all I can...all to experience a different take on life.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) i agree. More or less, this is how i am to... minus the drugs. I guess it more describes how i was 10 - 25 years ago.

I even had a "list of things to do before i die"; which has been all but exausted (i still keep a mental list, but am not too concerned whether i fulfill any of them.. it's kinda changed to "things i'd like to check out, but no big deal if i dont" list)

If I'm not making sense, that's fine.

No, i think you made perfect sense.

I really wish humans could read eachother's minds...if you knew my thoughts and emotions you would understand what I'm trying to say perfectly, but English is a shitty language with nowhere near as many words as there are emotions.

Ya, i think the mind-reading stuff might make things easier to convey our intended meanings, but then again, i kinda like the challenge. When things get easy, i think they get boring... my opinion, anyway.

I guess I'll try and put it simple: You and I are just alike; we're at the base, scared fuckin' animals.

Here is where i think the mind-reading might be helpful. If you could know me, from my perspective, you would know that my whole life i havent really been afraid of hardly anything (well, i have a phobia of speaking in front of groups-- but no fear of acting like a complete fool lol; and i do have a fear of bungee jumping-- afraid that the rope will stretch just long enough to make me a vegetable). Now that i'm getting closer to retirement (it's still a ways off), i do have alittle fear of getting old and not being able to do the things i like... but i've noticed that i have replaced some of them.. i.e. golfing instead of windsurfing, so i know in my head that there really is no need for that fear.

The influences in our lives have just led us to different means of masking our fear.

Interesting that you mention this. I was thinking the other day: have i tried to deny my fears, or have i really been "basically, not afraid". I've come to the conclusion, that i have been pretty honest with myself. I also concluded that i do not put enough faith in God. He has proved Himself to me, countless times.. so why do i still try to **in best Frank Sinatra voice** "do things my way"??

I understand, doctrinally, why i still rebel. But in actuality, God has given me SOOOO MUCH proof... that it is really amazing that i continue to rebel.

Whether or not our takes in life are correct or wrong matters nothing to me...as selfish as I am, you being another human just as I am human inspires me to hope that you can some day accomplish the same goal I'm trying to through whatever means are necessary...if faith works for you, that's awesome; but I've tried before, and it just can't take me where I want to go. Best of luck in your journeys.

Minus the selfishness, Adam... ditto, and may God Bless you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Peace out Totse...first farewell was several years ago, now I bid you adiue once again. Perhaps in another couple years I'll return, eh? Ah hell...I might still lurk every once in awhile. /QUOTE

I, for one, hope you "lurk" and from time to time, throw your 2 cents worth in... despite a few disagreements, it has been enjoyable.

Evil is a point of view, nothing more.......

Girls are the root of evil

girls= time*money

we all know time equals money

therefore girls= money*money

girls equal money^2

we all know money is the root of all evil

therefore girls = sqrt of evil^2

girls = evil

quote:Originally posted by laar:

..girls = evil

Better to rule in hell, than get no pussy in heaven... pussy, it's what makes the world go round.

Edit:Pussy, its whats for dinner... lol

[This message has been edited by Maccabee (edited 05-29-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I am saying that "if God does not exist" all is vainity and frivolous.



How? If God does not exist, yet I exist, then then what I do with my life is vanity and frivolous?

My thoughts, senses, emotions and experiences do not need validation from a higher source for me to attach a sense of meaning to them, though they may be as fleeting as the health of my body.

There is glory in existence, nothing more.

quote:Originally posted by Jasper Jones:

There is glory in existence, nothing more.

And what does it get you? You die and so does that glory. It is vanity and frivilous.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

And what does it get you? You die and so does that glory. It is vanity and frivilous.



Your post is very telling of you. Why do you focus on your death instead of your life? What is it about death that you fear so much? We don't know what happens after we die, I'm guessing it's nothing, and that doesn't bother me. I'm not conscious of nothingness, it's as if I never existed.

Scary? For some, yes, but I don't dread the day that I die, for that ruins life.

Do you think that maybe, death could be the reason you're a Christian? It's obviously comforting, convincing yourself that you don't end with your body.

I guess what my point is is that you never will know what happens after you die. You can spend a lifetime convincing yourself of one hypothesis, but in the end, that is frivolous and vanity, because your guess is as good as anybody elses.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Can you prove that He did not?



proving god wrong..

can you prove he's not?

How do you prove something wrong if he isn't there, thats like saying do you believe I have a glass of water in my kitchen and if I don't see it it means it's true?? no it doesn't dumbass, he's not there. never was, never will be

quote:Originally posted by Jasper Jones:

Your post is very telling of you. Why do you focus on your death instead of your life? What is it about death that you fear so much? We don't know what happens after we die, I'm guessing it's nothing, and that doesn't bother me. I'm not conscious of nothingness, it's as if I never existed.

Scary? For some, yes, but I don't dread the day that I die, for that ruins life.

Do you think that maybe, death could be the reason you're a Christian? It's obviously comforting, convincing yourself that you don't end with your body.

I guess what my point is is that you never will know what happens after you die. You can spend a lifetime convincing yourself of one hypothesis, but in the end, that is frivolous and vanity, because your guess is as good as anybody elses.

Sorry, but if you are a psychologist, you totally mis-analysed me (and the post).

I am not, have not; been afraid of death (short of adrenalin, life treatening/self-preservation situations such as a speeding train-- in Germany-- almost hitting my truck).

In fact, when i was young and bullet proof, i seldom even thought about death or even getting hurt. Now that i am getting closer and closer to retirement, and the body parts just aint what they used to be; this is when i (and most people, i think) start thinking more about body and death as something "less abstract". But now, the little fear of death that i have, is more for the sake of my family... have i provided enough (financial) security for my family; have i taught them / guided them / lead a Christian example for them.. that they may also share in God's Glory.

No, it's not my death that i'm afraid of. It is the eternal life of those i care about, that concerns me. And this is also one of my motivating reasons for posting in TOTSE.

I can not convert anyone. No human can. That is the Holy Spirit's job. The only thing Christians can do, toward this end, is obey the Great Commission.

quote:Originally posted by Zimok:

proving god wrong..

can you prove he's not?

How do you prove something wrong if he isn't there, thats like saying do you believe I have a glass of water in my kitchen and if I don't see it it means it's true?? no it doesn't dumbass, he's not there. never was, never will be

You call me a dumbass, and that's fine.

but are you sure you read the post(s) thoroughly?

Here:

quote:asterisk

Regular posted 05-22-2005 21:21 Click Here to See the Profile for asterisk Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

But can you prive god created humans?

IP: Logged

xtreem5150ahm

Regular posted 05-22-2005 23:12 Click Here to See the Profile for xtreem5150ahm Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

Originally posted by asterisk:

But can you prive god created humans?

Can you prove that He did not?

i was raised as a catholic, my mum used to take to church every sunday, read me bible passages...she still says the rosery 3 times daily...

y' know what? I HATE RELIGION!

someone posted saying people who dont beleive in god have big egos....

that doesn't make sense to me, in my life experiences with religion, it has to be one of the most egotistic things imaginable. Think about it, religion put humanity at the centre of the fucking universe! thier is an unbeleievable amount of stuff out there, the universe is vast VAST VAST ...but no, it only concerns us on our little floating rock because we're all so fucking special...suddenly, what the bible says doesn't hold as much water as what it used to..

when i say i hate religion, i hate catholisism the most...its one of my pet hates...it preaches to not judge people, but is the the most judgemental faction of christianity (which is pretty judgemental on the whole tbh) and on top of that..IT CHANGES! its rules and perceptions of god change all the time! the whole loving god stuff is fairly recent!!

did god come down and tell religious leaders to change the bible? i dont think he did...

so what catholics are following is basically what the catholic leaders want them following and has very little to do with 'what god wants'.

how can catholics (and all christians for that matter) be certain that the ideals they follow haven't been doctored even more in the past?

religion = blind faith with comfort in numbers

Human ego .. is vanity and from vanity all other sins arise. so yeah its true..

quote:Originally posted by laar:

Girls are the root of evil

girls= time*money

we all know time equals money

therefore girls= money*money

girls equal money^2

we all know money is the root of all evil

therefore girls = sqrt of evil^2

girls = evil



Money is a tool by which men use to deal with each other. Without money, we would be using each other as this tool. We would be using guns to deal with each other.

"You have to be at least 2% smarter than any tool you use."

ImperfectCircle you remind me of an amazing story I read Demian by Herman Hesse just about all of the things you have said were expressed in this book from the 1950's if you haven't read it it's amazing.

[This message has been edited by bsouthern6 (edited 06-08-2005).]

Evil does not exist.

It is a concept created by humans (the only organism known that is phylosophical) to help fill in the gaps that being concious leaves.

Let me explain, conciousness was created some time in the period fire was invented, bipeds before that had some of the benifets conciousness give but it is only at a limited level, these benifets were science advancements like a rock, these benifets got out of date so humans developed conciousness to increase brain capacity.This conciousness was fueled by constant curiosity and thus things that aren't understood must be filled in, you see, only a select few humans can percieve such things from a third person perspective while the others are left on this road to stupidity that conciousness has created.

Besides, mathematicaly, the root of all evil is 25.806975 recurring.

An interesting fact:If you double evil and then add 0.7508 recurring percent of the original evil you get the number 1337.

[This message has been edited by midgetbasketball (edited 06-09-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by karn:

Human ego .. is vanity and from vanity all other sins arise. so yeah its true..

WOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

the root of all evil is WCW Nitro