Review these arguments and argue back if you wish, input is appreciated.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/jews-jesus/jews-jesus-index.html

I am a slacker an therefore will refrain from even attempting to refute these arguments. A task that would likely take weeks from an intelegent individual. Something which this forum is lacking in.

And I'd rather finish my potato gun.

Bump.

quote:Originally posted by JewDude:

Review these arguments and argue back if you wish, input is appreciated.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/jews-jesus/jews-jesus-index.html

I tried to go to the site, and my browser (Mozilla) gave me a blank page.. so i tried it on IE and still nothing.

So, i backtracked on the path, and got a "not authorized" message. SSSoooo... i tried the home page... finally... But, now i need help finding what you were asking about.

I posted another thing like this and here's the argument the christians gave me back (I'm jewish as well):

We were worshipping the wrong things, so their teachings are now written by mortals with gods words given to them and put into the origional bible.

All religions have made up a shitload of intellegent sounding crap that can be used to defend their religion. If it was easy to argue against, the religion would no longer exist.

xtreem, try again. It took me about 10 refreshes the second time I tried to visit. I use IE6

quote:Originally posted by JewDude:

Review these arguments and argue back if you wish, input is appreciated.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/jews-jesus/jews-jesus-index.html

No way in hell I would convert to judisum. If anything it would be paganisum. No dick-chopping or skullcap wearing for me.

Why don't these Jews type "O"? They spell it G-d and L-rd. Is it like not saying YHWH or something?

Quotes from that file

"He will rule at a time of world-wide peace"

"Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?"

"He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem"

"He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d"



Maybe if you jewish fuckers DIDN'T KILL HIM, he might have created world peace and did all the things he was surpose to do.

Dumbarses

quote:Originally posted by matt_from_oz:

Maybe if you jewish fuckers DIDN'T KILL HIM, he might have created world peace and did all the things he was surpose to do.

Dumbarses

Do you really believe that it was the Jews who killed the Messiah?

He died FOR us all. So each and every one of us, killed Jesus the Christ and each and every sin we've committed is how we did it.

But His death means nothing, without His Ressurection... in other words, if Jesus did not raise frome death, He could not be the 'sin offering'. He also had to live a perfect life in order to be that 'sin offering'.

Well there wouldn't have to have been an offering if he wasn't killed and he taught us how to live our lives in the first place. If instead of killing him, we learnt from him then we could have asked god for forgiveness and everything would have been just ace.

[This message has been edited by matt_from_oz (edited 05-27-2005).]

That site is shit. Nearly all of those arguments are not even prophecies for the Messiah. They are warnings to Israel or prophetical events not fulfilled even today. The other few can easilly be solved using the parts of the bible the author didnt read (which is probably all but a page or two)

quote:Originally posted by matt_from_oz:

Well there wouldn't have to have been an offering if he wasn't killed and he taught us how to live our lives in the first place. If instead of killing him, we learnt from him then we could have asked god for forgiveness and everything would have been just ace.



Jesus's death alone contains many arguments against his divinity. One prevalent being that when Abraham destroyed a relatives idol shop after becoming Judaism, as he trashed the idols he said "If this were a god would it break" and the answer is of course not. well. if he were a god would he break? no. Also the Jews were under persecution at the time of Jesus, the only "Jews" with power in that time were a group who were appointed by the Romans to do what they said. The Jews had no power to kill Jesus, and had we done it, the execution style perscribed for those offenses he would have been charged with was stoning, not crucifiction.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

That site is shit. Nearly all of those arguments are not even prophecies for the Messiah. They are warnings to Israel or prophetical events not fulfilled even today. The other few can easilly be solved using the parts of the bible the author didnt read (which is probably all but a page or two)

I would be ammused to actually here these pages that resolve the problems, as this man is a rabbi who has large portions of the torah memorized. Those prophetical events are part of the actual requirements to be messiah, so if you had read more than a page or two of the bible then maybe you would know better.

quote:Originally posted by titan88:

No way in hell I would convert to judisum. If anything it would be paganisum. No dick-chopping or skullcap wearing for me.

Yeah i wouldn't suggest converting, cirumcision at this age would SUCK. Anyways this isnt meant as a push for conversion or anything like that, this is a simple intellectual curiosity to see if anyone can actually recat these arguments.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

Why don't these Jews type "O"? They spell it G-d and L-rd. Is it like not saying YHWH or something?

Technically one can type the whole name, I jsut prefer not too, habit, one isn't supposed to write the name of G-d so you don't risk it being disgraced.

Christian POV: Jesus was a Jew. Jesus let himself be crucified. A Jew let Jesus be crucified.

Personally since Christians stem from Judiasm, we're just as much at fault as the Jews would be which is virtually no direct fault at all.

It's also worth mentioning that JewDude just ROASTED all of you.

[This message has been edited by xXPhoenixFireXx (edited 05-27-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by JewDude:

Jesus's death alone contains many arguments against his divinity. One prevalent being that when Abraham destroyed a relatives idol shop after becoming Judaism, as he trashed the idols he said "If this were a god would it break" and the answer is of course not. well. if he were a god would he break? no. Also the Jews were under persecution at the time of Jesus, the only "Jews" with power in that time were a group who were appointed by the Romans to do what they said. The Jews had no power to kill Jesus, and had we done it, the execution style perscribed for those offenses he would have been charged with was stoning, not crucifiction.

Read the Bible, dumbass. Jesus allowed his spirit to leave. He didnt die from the crucifiction. He died because he willed it.

quote:Originally posted by xXPhoenixFireXx:

Christian POV: Jesus was a Jew. Jesus let himself be crucified. A Jew let Jesus be crucified.

Personally since Christians stem from Judiasm, we're just as much at fault as the Jews would be which is virtually no direct fault at all.

It's also worth mentioning that JewDude just ROASTED all of you.



Failing to post sources burns no one. Also everyone is responsible for his death. Read the Bible.

quote:Originally posted by JewDude:

I would be ammused to actually here these pages that resolve the problems, as this man is a rabbi who has large portions of the torah memorized. Those prophetical events are part of the actual requirements to be messiah, so if you had read more than a page or two of the bible then maybe you would know better.

And you have sources to prove it? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Also, a rabbi has no place to go back and forth between new and old testiment. Plus his beliefs say that his conclusions are correct, and that is illogical. Your conclusions must match facts and thats not what he does.

First he sets out to disprove that Jesus was messiah. Thats fine and dandy. But his proof is incorrect. You cannot say what significance a prophetic even in the old testiment has without understanding the new. And without being a believer in Christ, it is impossible for him to know what the new testiment even means. Read it for yourself!

He doesn't set out to prove Jesus was Messiah, he tries to name the criteria necessary for a Messiah. And not once does he refer to the NT. And also you haven't said a single thing about why what the rabbi dude says doesn't match fact.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Read the Bible, dumbass. Jesus allowed his spirit to leave. He didnt die from the crucifiction. He died because he willed it.

You are a moron...the rules for someone to be the messiah must predate the messiah's arrival at Earth, therefore if you assume Jesus to be messiah, you can only consider those criteria set forward previous to his coming to Earth, ie the "Old Testamtent", by the way the Tanach, (Torah Neviem Ketuvim), is the "Old Testament" and therefore the bible, so I have read a very large portion of your bible, the part that would have anything to do with messianic prophecy, maybe you should read it again, huh?

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

And you have sources to prove it? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Also, a rabbi has no place to go back and forth between new and old testiment. Plus his beliefs say that his conclusions are correct, and that is illogical. Your conclusions must match facts and thats not what he does.

First he sets out to disprove that Jesus was messiah. Thats fine and dandy. But his proof is incorrect. You cannot say what significance a prophetic even in the old testiment has without understanding the new. And without being a believer in Christ, it is impossible for him to know what the new testiment even means. Read it for yourself!

I believe the source to prove it would be something called THE BIBLE dumbass.

If your statement about Rabbi's right to examine both documents, then I challenge a priest's right to examine the tanach.

I would like to see some level of thought out of you at some point in time, its getting boring arguing against a protozoan, I would like an actual argument, and I would remind you that Jesus didn't have the New Testament to examine his divinity through obscure parallelism. Try to argue using those documents pertaining to the requirements of the messiah not Jesus, unless you are using it to show where he meets these established requirements, in other words USE SOME FUCKING LOGIC YOU PEA BRAINED MORON, if you bring up another empty argument, I will be immensely annoyed.

Here ya go: http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

I think that adequately answers the "questions" pertaining to Christ's Messiah-ship.

Please let me know if you need more.

Here's some more, just in case: http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/messiah.htm

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Here ya go: http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

I think that adequately answers the "questions" pertaining to Christ's Messiah-ship.

Please let me know if you need more.

some of these were already addressed in the post I put up as false, ie quote: 5-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.

- Gen.49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.

- Lk.3:33 The son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah. (Mt.1:2-3)

and this

quote: 6- Hair of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7.... Luke 1:32-33.

- Isa.9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. (Isa.11:1-5; 2Sam.7:13)

- Luk.1:32-33: He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Mt.1:1, 1:6)



This is false quote:

7- Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2.... Matthew 2:1.... Luke 2:4-7.

- Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.

Jesus was actually born in Nazareth, not Bethlehem.

Also that site has some major discrepency between what is Messianic Prophecy and what is just some sort of vauge parallelism and many of those things have nothing to do with requirements for the Messiah whatsoever. Good post though, better than most so far, actually had a logical argument of some sort.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Here's some more, just in case: http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/messiah.htm

quote:Isaiah 9:6-7 [6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. ... 700 B.C.



Weak evidece if any is supported here, it can be interpreted as the "he" refering to G-d and the belief that all will unite in worship of G-d after the messiah comes to Earth.

quote:Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above.

Once more this was adressed in my first post.

quote:Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it--one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness. and again previosuly adressed.

I don't have too much time now because I am heading out, however I will respond to the rest in more depth later.