This is a continuation of the arguemtn in the thread "Is homosexuality a sin" which got very off-track. It is basically a debate over lineages in Judaism. In response to whomever posted that Reform Judaism doesn't require conversions for patrillineal descent, this is true. However, it doesn't require one to wear a kippah, and yet I do, even at my Catholic High School, it doesn't require one to keep kosher, which I do, it doesn't require one to keep kosher for passover, which I do, it doesn't require one to fast for Yom Kippur, which I do. If you understand where this is going you may understand that it does not matter to me if it is required, more if I believe it to be the proper spiritual path for me. If I were to convert I would convert into Orthodoxy then return to the Reform temple.

Space Falcon, I'd just like to point that you are making some sweeping generalizations. I also have to point out to T-bagbikerstar that most branches of Judaism do not necesarrily allow patrillineal descent. Reform does and about 50/50 in the conservative does. It breaks down to probably being about 50/50 of the total Jewish population. Spacefalcon, being affiliated does not mean you know anything about it necesarilly, and alos Reform Judaism is based on the opposite of what you were saying. You said it was based on if you were by descent not what you believed in, that seems more like Orthodoxy. You have been berating on how Reform allows mixed descent and then contradict yourself by saying it only cares about descent...hmm. Reform Judaism cares about what you believe, NOT who your parents were.

Yeah, reform is a lot more about what you believe god is, not what the stricter versions of the religion tell you god is. If you don't think turning on a light for Shabbat is work then that's how you should worship. If you think god is only a metaphor used by the religion to stress proper values then you should worship following under those rules. You then can believe that the rules set forth thousands of years ago are outdated in cases and can give them a more modern application... SpaceFlacon, you think you know so much from your 10 years of being part of it, well I took 1st-7th grade of Hebrew school at a conservative synagogue, and 8-10th at a reform synagogue, count them...10 years.

My conservative synagogue allowed my patrilineal dissent, but did not let my mom's side of the family participate at all in my bar-mitzvah service.

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

[B]SpaceFalcon, you think you know so much from your 10 years of being part of it, well I took 1st-7th grade of Hebrew school at a conservative synagogue, and 8-10th at a reform synagogue, count them...10 years.

Actually, that's 2 years at reform. I have 10 years in each (first conservative, then Reform).

quote:You said it was based on if you were by descent not what you believed in

No, I said reform counts it based on how you're raised, not what you believe or where you belong.

quote:Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001:



Actually, that's 2 years at reform. I have 10 years in each (first conservative, then Reform).



No, I said reform counts it based on how you're raised, not what you believe or where you belong.

Well actually 3 years reform... 8th, 9th, 10th...3 years. Religion off how you're raised? Well everyone started off being raised orthodox, how'd it come about then? Nobody would worship how they're raised, they follow what they believe in.

Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001:



quote:You said it was based on if you were by descent not what you believed in quote:

No, I said reform counts it based on how you're raised, not what you believe or where you belong.

quote:Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001:





The reform don't base his affiliation on a Godly text at all (I can show you the decision at a later time, and it's not at all religious). They base the idea on an ethnic affiliation, not a belief one. Sort of if someone started a church of being black, which didn't care what God you worshipped, only that you were black.

... umm ok sure buddy

[This message has been edited by JewDude (edited 06-03-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

Well everyone started off being raised orthodox, how'd it come about then? Nobody would worship how they're raised, they follow what they believe in.

Reform says that who is a Jew is only dependant on: those who converted to Judaism by reform or any higher movment, and if you were raised as a Jew. Even if both your parents were Jews, and you are raised christian, then you don't count as a Jew to them.

And JewDude, I acidentally deleted text there that ment to seperate the differences between Reform and orthodox. Replace They with The Orthodox.

quote:Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001:

Reform says that who is a Jew is only dependant on: those who converted to Judaism by reform or any higher movment, and if you were raised as a Jew. Even if both your parents were Jews, and you are raised christian, then you don't count as a Jew to them.

And JewDude, I acidentally deleted text there that ment to seperate the differences between Reform and orthodox. Replace They with The Orthodox.



"Even if both your parents were Jews, and you are raised christian, then you don't count as a Jew to them."

Of course, Judaism isn't a race, it's a religion. The religion you believe in is the religion you are, not by your bloodline.

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

Of course, Judaism isn't a race, it's a religion.

There is a Jewish race if you believe in race and all that stuff. It is not a requirement to be Jewish or anything.

Lol, curly sideburns! § http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) §

quote:Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001:

Reform says that who is a Jew is only dependant on: those who converted to Judaism by reform or any higher movment, and if you were raised as a Jew. Even if both your parents were Jews, and you are raised christian, then you don't count as a Jew to them.

I would think that makes more sense, at least to me it does, of course that would explain why I am reform. I think the major point of disagreement is wether Judaism is primarily a faith or a herritage. Sound about right to ya'll?

quote:And JewDude, I acidentally deleted text there that ment to seperate the differences between Reform and orthodox. Replace They with The Orthodox.

Alright that makes quite a bit more snes then.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Lol, curly sideburns! § http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) §

WE HAVE BENN SNOOPIED!! We are a real thread now lol. (p.s.) I want the curly sideburns but I don't think my girlfriend would like that.

EDIT- They are called peyas (check spelling)

[This message has been edited by JewDude (edited 06-03-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by JewDude:

WE HAVE BENN SNOOPIED!! We are a real thread now lol. (p.s.) I want the curly sideburns but I don't think my girlfriend would like that.

EDIT- They are called peyas (check spelling)

I used to pull their sideburns when I was a kid. Good times.

Freaks.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I used to pull their sideburns when I was a kid. Good times.

Freaks.

I wouldn't call em freaks, I want them so I can have slinkies all the time lol, j/k

Since there are a few Jewish people here I have a question to ask. Doing genealogy research on my mothers side of the family I discovered that my great great great grandmother (my mother's mother's mother's mother's mother) had a Jewish maiden surname: Weidemann. A Jewish lady on a genealogy website told me that the name Weidemann is a common Jewish surname. My mothers family came from the Pale of Settlement in Russia from a place called Vohlynia.

Anyway I don't know for sure if my great great great grandmother was Jewish. But I've heard that if you had a maternal ancestor who was Jewish you are considered Jewish. Is that true?

Yes, it is written in the Torah that Judaism is passed down on the mother's side.

However, you should remember that Judaism is a religion not a race as Space has posted. The Nazi's took Judaism to be a race and that is how they rationalized their murdering of an entire population of people who merely believed the same thing.

Sounds like your Great (something) Grandma was Jewish though, you could get accepted by the Orthodox peeps.

Sephiroph said jewishness was a race...

quote:Originally posted by titan88:

Sephiroph said jewishness was a race...

Of Course, because we pass on our torah gene through the generations, and since the Torah gene is located on the X chromasome that's why the mother passes Jewishness down. *sarcasm*

Don't believe everything a moderator tells you.

quote:Originally posted by titan88:

Sephiroph said jewishness was a race...

Sephiroph is also a whale.

P.S.

No offence, Sephy.

Actually, what I said was that race is an entirely subjective categorisation with next to no genetic correlation so that if you're going to indulge in dividing humanity into sub-categories that imply inherent differences beyond pigmentation, susceptibility to hereditary disease, facial features and hair, then Jews have as much right as any other people to be referred to as a 'race.' As I recall, my opinion on the matter was solicited in debate with a person who was trying to avoid the 'racist' label with his hatred for Jews by simply stating that they 'aren't a race,' even as making assumptions on that level indicated that he considered them inherently different from other human beings on a genetic level. Jews are both a people and a religion, an ethnic (racial if you want to use the word) heritage and a holy one. For Reform Jews, the sense of peoplehood receives less emphasis, but that's what this discussion is about and we'll get to that subject. From the traditional view, our souls are literally different from those of non-Jews, indicating our special relationship with God as his chosen people. I'm going to try to be as respectful of Reform belief as possible, and avoid Lashon Harah, but after consulting with my Rabbi I have come to the conclusion that I cannot allow the beliefs traditional Rabbinic Judaism to be misrepresented as they were in the above post.

Yeah, but Orthodox Jews are all retarded from the inbreeding. I ain't shitting you. Most of them have some kind of handicap and just look like freaks, even if you ignore the curly sideburns, 3" thick glasses, hats that look like tires with fur, cords hanging from their ass, tap shoes and the whole black clothes thing.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Lol, curly sideburns! § http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) §

LOL

BTW, how do you get characters other than the ones on the keyboard?

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

Actually, what I said was that race is an entirely subjective categorisation with next to no genetic correlation so that if you're going to indulge in dividing humanity into sub-categories that imply inherent differences beyond pigmentation, susceptibility to hereditary disease, facial features and hair, then Jews have as much right as any other people to be referred to as a 'race.' As I recall, my opinion on the matter was solicited in debate with a person who was trying to avoid the 'racist' label with his hatred for Jews by simply stating that they 'aren't a race,' even as making assumptions on that level indicated that he considered them inherently different from other human beings on a genetic level. Jews are both a people and a religion, an ethnic (racial if you want to use the word) heritage and a holy one. For Reform Jews, the sense of peoplehood receives less emphasis, but that's what this discussion is about and we'll get to that subject. From the traditional view, our souls are literally different from those of non-Jews, indicating our special relationship with God as his chosen people. I'm going to try to be as respectful of Reform belief as possible, and avoid Lashon Harah, but after consulting with my Rabbi I have come to the conclusion that I cannot allow the beliefs traditional Rabbinic Judaism to be misrepresented as they were in the above post.

There are still conversions into the religion, you cannot convert into another race. The other person was obviously making racist comments because he was implying through his speech that Judaism is a race.

EDIT: Read what wikipedia has to say about several definitions of race. All of them require specific genetic differences amongst a population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race#Summary_of_different_definitions_of_race

and the opening line to their race article:

"A race is a distinct population of humans distinguished in some way from other humans. The most widely observed races are those based on skin color, facial features, ancestry, and genetics. "

[This message has been edited by T-BagBikerStar (edited 06-05-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

There are still conversions into the religion, you cannot convert into another race. The other person was obviously making racist comments because he was implying through his speech that Judaism is a race.

EDIT: Read what wikipedia has to say about several definitions of race. All of them require specific genetic differences amongst a population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race#Summary_of_different_definitions_of_race

and the opening line to their race article:

"A race is a distinct population of humans distinguished in some way from other humans. The most widely observed races are those based on skin color, facial features, ancestry, and genetics."Yes and there is such a thing as an ethnic Jew, Ashkenazim being the most famous and most persecuted under those subjective classifications. However, race does remain a mostly imaginary categorisation of human beings, so my contention, as I explained above is that a population with souls that are put together differently than those of the rest of humanity has perhaps more reason than any other population to consider itself separate. That includes converts, because the souls of all Jews were present at Sinai to accept the covenant and the two competing theories in Jewish belief are that the souls of converts were either Jewish all along, or that converting literally changes history by placing their souls in that moment to be changed by accepting the covenant.

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

Yes, it is written in the Torah that Judaism is passed down on the mother's side.

...

Of Course, because we pass on our torah gene through the generations, and since the Torah gene is located on the X chromasome that's why the mother passes Jewishness down. *sarcasm*

Hey you know what's interesting? If I had a kid right now, it would be an American. Why? Because I'm an American, and my wife is an American. I guess there must be some kind of American Gene at work! *Shock*

quote:However, you should remember that Judaism is a religion not a race as Space has posted. The Nazi's took Judaism to be a race and that is how they rationalized their murdering of an entire population of people who merely believed the same thing.

They murdered alot of people. They portrayed their rationale for who they killed as killing an inferior race. That was their justification.

However, what really kills your argument here is the fact that the place they looked to determine who was a Jew was by checking just who was affiliated with a synnagogue. They took any synnagogue's records (and those records stretched back quite far) and checked them. If you were an unaffiliated Jew from france who's family had lived there for a few hundered years, and you moved to Nazi Germany, you wouldn't have been found out.

But you don't have to call someone a part of a Race to kill them. I could try and kill all buddahists. Do I have to say they're all Japaneese or chineese or whatever? Hitler's race thing ignored Jews as being a seperate people with their own cultures and portrayed them as a different spiecies of human. That doesn't mean they have no identity seperate from the rest of culture because people used that as a fact to kill them.

quote:Sounds like your Great (something) Grandma was Jewish though, you could get accepted by the Orthodox peeps.

Maybe, but he'd still have to prove she was Jewish, and he'd probbly have to go through a conversion "just in case" either way.



[This message has been edited by SpaceFalcon2001 (edited 06-06-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001:



Hey you know what's interesting? If I had a kid right now, it would be an American. Why? Because I'm an American, and my wife is an American. I guess there must be some kind of American Gene at work! *Shock*





American is a nationality, not a race. Judaism is not at all about your bloodline, it is about what you worship that makes you Jewish. If you read the links I posted to wikipedia about theories on race, all of the theories require some genetic connection to denote a race.

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

American is a nationality, not a race. Judaism is not at all about your bloodline, it is about what you worship that makes you Jewish. If you read the links I posted to wikipedia about theories on race, all of the theories require some genetic connection to denote a race.

Obviously, you weren't aware that Judaism is a nationality as well. You know everytime it mentiones those children of Israel? How Jews are all a part of the same nation? We Jews are one NATION of people, with a certain way of life.

The Torah is effectivly the constitution of the Jewish people, and Rabbinic laws are there to hold up the intentions of those laws. Who says what makes an American? American law. Who says what makes a Jew? Jewish law. Neither American nor Jewish law takes away your citizenship if you break a given law, and states clearly that "illegal immigrants" are not citizens.

It's not just a religion, not just an ethnicity, not just a nationality, but all 3. That's what makes it strong.

No, Israeli is a nationality, not Jews. In the Torah it says the Israelites are a nation of people. In no way are we an ethnicity, leaving only a religion.

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

No, Israeli is a nationality, not Jews. In the Torah it says the Israelites are a nation of people. In no way are we an ethnicity, leaving only a religion.

Ok, now you're just ignoring the facts. Who are the Jews? They are the Israelites. The Torah says they are a nation. The Torah is the CENTER of being Jewish, it's the only reason Jews exist.

As for the rest, it's called a dictionary:

Ethnicity: an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties

Even if you don't think that Jews are a race, to deny that there is any cultural aspect is just plain ignorance.

I suppose you don't think the Irish are a race, culture, ethnicity, or nation either?

I mean this in an utterly respectful way, because I understand the need to find ways to apply Hashem to the concerns of the modern world, but I must disagree strongly with some of the assertions made in the following post from the other topic.

quote:Originally posted by T-BagBikerStar:

Does "You shall not work on the sabbath" really mean you can't turn on a lightbulb? That kind of stuff.That’s exactly the point of the Talmud though. Torah is not very specific. It says things like ‘You shall not trim the edge of your beard’ and in the Shema it says that we shall bind something for a sign upon our hands and they shall be as a reminder between our eyes. He told us elsewhere that we are to slaughter beasts “as I have commanded you.” Problem is, he didn’t give specifics anywhere in the text of the bible. What’s all that supposed to mean then? Well, without an oral law explaining these things, it would seem that God duped us, like a speaker at a drive through that bleeds into static just as the attendant is telling you how much your food costs. He didn’t though. Along with the Torah SheBeKesav, God gave Moshe the Torah SheBaal Peh: an oral tradition he was to pass down to the newly ordained people of Israel so that the law would be in their minds as well as on paper. From the oral law we know how Kosher slaughter works, we know what kind of instrument is used, we know the minimum length for our peyos, we know that Tefillin are to be that which is bound for a sign upon our hand and a reminder between our eyes, we know how they are made, we know what tzis tzis are, we know how to tie them, we know how marriage and conversion work, we know what constitutes grounds for divorce, we know how contracts work, the list goes on and on. The Karaites tried a long time ago to reject the oral law in favour of a plain-text reading for everything, but because the Torah is so infuriatingly non-specific if you’re not listening to what else God was telling us, they ended up creating their own oral law to fill the vacuum. Yes the oral law is full of arguments, people began to forget things in Diaspora (why do you think they wrote it all down?), but we made sure that no opinion was forgotten, because we to this day have the dissenting opinions in every argument on record as well! These people were not only vastly educated in the law, they were the closest thing we had to specific advice from Biblical figures, because many of them could trace their genealogy back to Sinai!

This is where the concept of universal acceptance comes into play. God is merciful and realises that we are not perfect in remembering his clarifications. Therefore, he made it so that if it is the universal custom of those who follow the law to rely on one hallakhic standard or another, then that is the final word. The People Israel universally accepted the Talmud as the final word on Hallakhah, so even if there is a slight deviation in its interpretation of the law, it is still right. Today however, there is no universal consensus that would give weight to a newer take on the law, because the people are so divided over whether the law even has weight in the first place, whether the Torah is divine, whether there’s an after life, whether Hashem exists, whether anything Jewish has any meaning at all. So for those of us who still accept those concepts as fact, we rely on the authority of Talmud as our default interpretation. Now, because of this situation, it has become the work of many Orthodox Rabbis to apply the Talmudic interpretation to modern day life. In the Talmud it tells us exactly what constitutes work. One of those things is the use of fire. Because the rapid movement of electrons exhibited in harnessed electricity causes such friction and heat, using it is the equivalent of starting a fire, just as would be using the friction of a matchhead to set something aflame. Cars, which literally create contained explosions while in operation, definitely constitute a use of fire. So we don’t drive and we don’t turn electronics on or off on Shabbos.



quote:2. This is a disgusting comment. You are against inter-religious marriage? According to all religious beliefs of Judaism marriage between Jews and people of other religions is AOK.This is honestly the most frightening thing said so far. The prohibition against intermarriage is, and has been, SINCE SINAI, one of the most strongly held beliefs of Judaism. Even in secular communities there has been an almost instinctive cultural stance against the practise. Until the birth of the liberal movements, the weight of it was so great that families would actually go into a period of mourning after the marriage of one of its members to a gentile. It’s a deeply ingrained part of the pop-culture perception of Jews as a whole: the infamous Jewish mother who warns her son against the temptation of marrying a shiksah, et cetera. It’s even a plot point in Fiddler on the Roof and you actually were under the impression that there was a universal consensus that the practise was kosher?!

As I have explained before, the Hebrew word for holy “Kodesh” literally means separate. God said be holy for I am holy, or literally be ‘separate’ for I am ‘separate.’ Nachmanides expounded on this and he serves as a good study for the concept. God told us repeatedly not to adopt the customs of other cultures, and we’ve held to that, the laws on peyos, avoiding kneeling except on Yom Kippur, all of those are things we do to make ourselves different, separate. God also said this: “You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son, for he will cause your child to turn away from after Me and they will worship the gods of others then the L–rd’s wrath will burn against you, and He will destroy you quickly.” He said that interfaith marriage leads our children to follow other gods and it’s true! Not only is there the threat that our children upon marrying gentiles will convert to their religion, but also the impossible position interfaith marriage places our grandchildren in if our children do not convert. How can a relationship have a firm foundation if the participants don’t even agree about this most fundamental question of life?

We already know that interfaith marriages are far more prone to divorce than others. Even intersectarian marriages within the same religion have tremendous difficulty. It can only be workable if one or both of the parties surrender their commitment to their religion, which kinda defeats the purpose of following it in the first place, don’t you think? Worse still, it could result in a conversion by one spouse into Judaism that is neither wholehearted or sincere and is done merely to appease the other partner, which is not a healthy position in any religion. Otherwise the children are put in the position of choosing to follow mommy’s God or daddy’s (in other words, who do they love more?!). How can we do that to any child? Even if the children are raised Jewish, they go through incredible troubles, being caught between two worlds. The end result is that they become alienated and find it hard to be observant, which leads to more intermarriage, possible conversions, and grandchildren that are either not Jewish or have no religious affiliation at all. Statistics show that this is exactly what is happening today and I’ll bring them out as I get to my more specific complaints about the reform movement in later posts, but for right now let the record state that intermarriage is NOT okay according to all opinions in Judaism. quote:We do not serve to populate this planet with more Jews.If you’ve ever seen a Jewish wedding ceremony, you might have become acquainted with the phrase ‘Go forth and multiply.’ It’s from Genesis, God’s commandment to Adam and high on the list of the divine prerogatives of mankind, along with tending God’s garden. We as Jews especially are bound by this dictum in that we are to be God’s priestly nation, a light unto all other nations. We don’t simply serve to populate the planet with Jews, but to populate this planet with observant Jews, mindful of Torah and committed to serving God. quote:That final survival comment sounds like Social Darwinism.We call it the silent holocaust, because intermarriage, fuelled by the Reform movement’s laxity is killing us off, along with knowledge of Torah and the rich cultural heritage that so many secularists bemoan the loss of while continuing to contribute to its demise.

"Only take heed and watch yourself very carefully, so that you do not forget the things that your eyes saw. Do not let [this memory] leave your hearts, all the days of your lives. Teach your children and children's children about the day you stood before G-d your lord at Sinai. It was then that G-d said to me, 'Congregate the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words. This will teach them to be in awe of me as long as they live on earth, and they will also teach their children. You approached and stood at the foot of the mountain. The mountain was burning with a fire reaching the heart of heaven, with darkness, cloud and mist. Then G-d spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sounds of words, but saw no image; there was only a voice. He announced to you rules and laws, so that you will keep them in the land which you are crossing [the Jordan] to occupy." (Deuteronomy 4:9-14)

Now it is clear to me why Hitler was such an asshole to you guys.

Whoa, Rabbi Sephiroth! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)



quote:Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001:

Maybe, but he'd still have to prove she was Jewish, and he'd probbly have to go through a conversion "just in case" either way.Hmmm. I don't really have any proof other than her maiden surname. But I'm still doing genealogical research. I'm going to keep searching, maybe I'll turn up something.

http://www.jewishgen.org/

That's the site I'd look through.

Yeah... (http://users.skynet.be/fa021696/dirtykike.jpg)

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Sephiroph is also a whale.

P.S.

No offence, Sephy.

It's ok, Snoops, it's not your fault you're Dutch.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

http://www.jewishgen.org/

That's the site I'd look through.Thanks for the link Seph.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

[This is honestly the most frightening thing said so far. The prohibition against intermarriage is, and has been, SINCE SINAI, one of the most strongly held beliefs of Judaism. Even in secular communities there has been an almost instinctive cultural stance against the practise. Until the birth of the liberal movements, the weight of it was so great that families would actually go into a period of mourning after the marriage of one of its members to a gentile. It’s a deeply ingrained part of the pop-culture perception of Jews as a whole: the infamous Jewish mother who warns her son against the temptation of marrying a shiksah, et cetera. It’s even a plot point in Fiddler on the Roof and you actually were under the impression that there was a universal consensus that the practise was kosher?!

As I have explained before, the Hebrew word for holy “Kodesh” literally means separate. God said be holy for I am holy, or literally be ‘separate’ for I am ‘separate.’ Nachmanides expounded on this and he serves as a good study for the concept. God told us repeatedly not to adopt the customs of other cultures, and we’ve held to that, the laws on peyos, avoiding kneeling except on Yom Kippur, all of those are things we do to make ourselves different, separate. God also said this: “You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son, for he will cause your child to turn away from after Me and they will worship the gods of others then the L–rd’s wrath will burn against you, and He will destroy you quickly.” He said that interfaith marriage leads our children to follow other gods and it’s true! Not only is there the threat that our children upon marrying gentiles will convert to their religion, but also the impossible position interfaith marriage places our grandchildren in if our children do not convert. How can a relationship have a firm foundation if the participants don’t even agree about this most fundamental question of life?

We already know that interfaith marriages are far more prone to divorce than others. Even intersectarian marriages within the same religion have tremendous difficulty. It can only be workable if one or both of the parties surrender their commitment to their religion, which kinda defeats the purpose of following it in the first place, don’t you think? Worse still, it could result in a conversion by one spouse into Judaism that is neither wholehearted or sincere and is done merely to appease the other partner, which is not a healthy position in any religion. Otherwise the children are put in the position of choosing to follow mommy’s God or daddy’s (in other words, who do they love more?!). How can we do that to any child? Even if the children are raised Jewish, they go through incredible troubles, being caught between two worlds. The end result is that they become alienated and find it hard to be observant, which leads to more intermarriage, possible conversions, and grandchildren that are either not Jewish or have no religious affiliation at all. Statistics show that this is exactly what is happening today and I’ll bring them out as I get to my more specific complaints about the reform movement in later posts, but for right now let the record state that intermarriage is NOT okay according to all opinions in Judaism.

I know you were trying to argue for my point T-Bag Biker Star, however the prohibition against intermarrying is quite clear. The only real argument against it as I see it is the one I prescribe to. This principle is built around the phrase "Build a fence around the Torah". It is simply a fear that one will lose their Jewish faith and heritage in a case of interrmariage, and in many cases this is true. However, it is not always, G-d was speaking to all people when he said that, therefore he spoke about the majority of instances. In my case tyhings were different, luckily for me. My mother is very much into comparative study of relegions, and because of this and what I learned from her I managed to reaffirm my Jewish faith and heritage not only by studying Torah and rarely Talmud, but also by seeing what others believed, and challenging my faith against theirs, in the end I assume you can tell what happened. The important factor, I believe, is that my parents agreed to give me a basic Jewish education, then allowed me to chose my own faith. They instituted in me a strong propensity to challenge things, and not just accept teachings, and equipped with this, I found my way to what I believe to be the truth. They instituted one of the most important virtues of Judaism: The search for truth and knowledge. So in a sense, my non-Jewish mother helped establish an incredibly strong Jewish faith.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

It's ok, Snoops, it's not your fault you're Dutch.

I ain't Dutch.

quote:Originally posted by JewDude:

The important factor, I believe, is that my parents agreed to give me a basic Jewish education, then allowed me to chose my own faith. They instituted in me a strong propensity to challenge things, and not just accept teachings, and equipped with this, I found my way to what I believe to be the truth. They instituted one of the most important virtues of Judaism: The search for truth and knowledge.

However that is not THE virtue of Judaism. There are more aspects that just learning about Judaism from a watered down source, be it a form that doesn't adhere to the intended principles, or through books. God gave Jews the Torah because they accepted it and promised to follow it. A Jew is someone who is required to follow the laws that their God gave them. If you see that as out and out too hard to do, what business do you have still claiming to be a Jew?

quote:So in a sense, my non-Jewish mother helped establish an incredibly strong Jewish faith.

However, she could never give you the Jewish way of life, and she can never supply you with a Jewish type soul with Jewish type responsabilites, and at this point, that's something only you can do if you want. It's very obvious, you ended up in a reform Jewish life, a life of no real responsability based in Torah.

quote:Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001:



However that is not THE virtue of Judaism. There are more aspects that just learning about Judaism from a watered down source, be it a form that doesn't adhere to the intended principles, or through books. God gave Jews the Torah because they accepted it and promised to follow it. A Jew is someone who is required to follow the laws that their God gave them. If you see that as out and out too hard to do, what business do you have still claiming to be a Jew?



Please stop assuming I don't follow the laws of Torah, I follow them as well as I can but as I am human I sin. I also study Torah so don't assume I have no strong sources.

quote:However, she could never give you the Jewish way of life, and she can never supply you with a Jewish type soul with Jewish type responsabilites, and at this point, that's something only you can do if you want. It's very obvious, you ended up in a reform Jewish life, a life of no real responsability based in Torah.

No real FORCED responsability, but I chose to take them on myself. And this stuff about the "Jewish soul" is nuture not nature. And my father gave me the soul of a way of life of a Jew.