yesterday i thaught about just forgetting the whole thing after most of you said that i would get a new hole ripped against my teacher.

We talked about the few schools that taught creationism in the U.S, then i asked her if she thaught that the genisis creation account was metaphorical. She said yes. then i asked her why the writers intended it to be a true fact and that it was ment to be part of history. then she just laughed and asked me if i had a time-machine. I asked her why she thaught that it was so funny. She Asked me how i knew that it was supposed to be a part of history, and i told her that ive read up on it. She said that it was something the writers added to the old testament for children (i kid you not, she fucking said that) it was written in a poem form form so the younger crowed could understand the concept of creationism thats why after every line it stated "and god was happy". The class just started to laugh, and i asked her if she was beeing serious. Indeed she was. At that point i lost all respect for that women. So i asked her in the same tone as she did before "do you have a time machine?" She told me that she has been studying the bible for years and that she could assure me that she kows more then me and that she doesnt need a time machine for that. I felt like i had something to say, but i just kept to myself and tried to think of it..

After the break, some girl asked why god lets us suffer, then she said something along the lines of "its us that choose to do evil, which is our free-will and god cant do anything about that" then i remembered that post from yesterday that said that if god is all-mighty and powerfull there must be a way for him to be able to preserve free-will and get rid of evil. When i told her that she said, that it would still interfere with our free-will. i thaught to myself "very well.. she makes sense" (i love this part) Then she told me to not underestimate god, because he IS loving, forgiving, and all-mighty. Thats when i couldnt contain myself any longer and said it pretty much in jackketch`s words "then why do poorly trained theologians have trouble understanding exodus 24: 24?" The whole class was silent while she went to the bookshelf to pick out a bible, when she turned to exodus she asked me if i wanted her to read it out loud, i told her to go ahead, so she did... then she was quiet for a little while (probably looking for someting to say) and said that in the old testament god was understood to be a bad god. Then i asked her why they lable him omnipotent, loving, forgiving, and all these other things in the OT and NT (EDIT: when clearly as it is stated that he tried killing moses. Which sets him as the opposite of all these things, him beeing LOVING, ALL-MIGHTY, and FORGIVING. {sorry i forgot to add this part}), did he suddenly change personalities going from one book to the next? and she told me that i didnt understand what she was trying to say.. i didnt care, i served her her ass infront of the whole class and i was happy. I know that sound ignorant as hell, but i did understand what she was saying and she just couldnt think of anythign else to say and it was irretating the shit out of her. I was a little dissapointed because her beeing a Theoligian and all, i wouldve expected for her to destroy me in a battle that she has been studying for years and years...

Me > Theologian



[This message has been edited by xRadical_Wankerx (edited 06-16-2005).]

Looks like my predictions were screwed. Good job.

i have about twenty different translations/versions of the Bible, and...

well, have you picked up a Bible and verified Exodus 24:24 to see it it says what Jack said.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

i have about twenty different translations/versions of the Bible, and...

well, have you picked up a Bible and verified Exodus 24:24 to see it it says what Jack said.



Honestly, i havnt. I guess i was in pretty big luck, because what she read out was identical to what jack explained to me yesterday. She read a little more then just a verse though.

[This message has been edited by xRadical_Wankerx (edited 06-16-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xRadical_Wankerx:



Honestly, i havnt. I guess i was in pretty big luck, because what she read out was identical to what jack explained to me yesterday. She read a little more then just a verse though.

pick one up and check it out...

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

pick one up and check it out...



There is no exodus 24:24 in the bible i have, it just goes up to 18. wtf?

quote:Originally posted by xRadical_Wankerx:

There is no exodus 24:24 in the bible i have, it just goes up to 18. wtf?



yup... same with all the other versions i have.

first, just a suggestion: you might want to appologize to your teacher... seems she even knew what was going on.

Second, and please take this as constuctive critisism, check your sources before challenging... it goes for all aspects of life.

third, if a teacher says something, although it's possible that they may be mistaken, keep in mind that they have studied a subject and they might know what they are talking about.

i disagree with some of what she told you, but many of those things are things that do get discussed in this forumn... so... welcome

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



yup... same with all the other versions i have.

first, just a suggestion: you might want to appologize to your teacher... seems she even knew what was going on.

Second, and please take this as constuctive critisism, check your sources before challenging... it goes for all aspects of life.

third, if a teacher says something, although it's possible that they may be mistaken, keep in mind that they have studied a subject and they might know what they are talking about.



Why would she read out something in class that doesnt exist. I just asked her why god tried to kill moses, and she read out the whole deal with moses and god. and why would jack post somehting that doesnt exist, and nobody even argued about it?

EDIT: is it maybe one of those things that got taken out of the bible? Maybe just maybe she used a copy that still had it. Which is very unlikely...



[This message has been edited by xRadical_Wankerx (edited 06-16-2005).]

I was wrong. She had a crappy theology teacher.

quote:then she said something along the lines of "its us that choose to do evil, which is our free-will and god cant do anything about that"

This gets into a very interesting debate. If God can't remove free-will or evil, then heaven (a place where supposably no evil exists) can't exist. If heaven exists, then God must be able to remove free-will or "evil."

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

I was wrong. She had a crappy theology teacher.

then she said something along the lines of "its us that choose to do evil, which is our free-will and god cant do anything about that"

im a dude..

[This message has been edited by xRadical_Wankerx (edited 06-16-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xRadical_Wankerx:



Why would she read out something in class that doesnt exist. I just asked her why god tried to kill moses, and she read out the whole deal with moses and god. and why would jack post somehting that doesnt exist, and nobody even argued about it?

EDIT: is it maybe one of those things that got taken out of the bible? Maybe just maybe she used a copy that still had it. Which is very unlikely...





simple. jack had a typo.its exodus 4:24

didn't notice it myself til xteem pointed it out.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



simple. jack had a typo.its exodus 4:24

didn't notice it myself til xteem pointed it out.



do you think she knew what i was talking about and went right to it?

EDIT: dammit, i guess i owe her an apology then...

[This message has been edited by xRadical_Wankerx (edited 06-16-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xRadical_Wankerx:

do you think she knew what i was talking about and went right to it?



she no doubt knows the verse. and also she no doubt just automatically assumed you meant 4 not 24.

sorry ,my bad. i wasn't trying to drop you in the shite and i'm glad it went well for you.

and like xteem said, you should always check your sources.he did...i didn't http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 06-16-2005).]

You are also talking to yourself. Pay attention to the quotes, I was quoting You

How the hell did you win a theological debate again?



quote:Originally posted by xRadical_Wankerx:

im a dude..

quote:Originally posted by xRadical_Wankerx:



Why would she read out something in class that doesny exist.

i'm gonna have to guess on this... either that, or wait for Jack's answer.

My guess is that:

1. it is in one of the versions that some theologians think is the most accurate, but that others deem non-canonical.. in other words, it is controversial

or

2. it is somewhat of a joke among seminary/theology students.. i'm not, i'm a truck driver.. but Jack says that he had gone to seminary. He was almost an ordained preacher. (and based on past posts, i am inclined to believe him)

or

3.



Why would jack post somehting that doesnt exist, and nobody even argued about it?

It would not be fair for me to say what motives that i think Jack may have had.

But what is right, is that i explain mine. Whether you were correct or not in how and what your initial confrontation; it seemed to me as disrespectful.

I considered your request as a "homework" assignment that you were asking for help with. When my kids ask for help with their homework, i dont give them the answers, but try to guide them toward discovering the answers themselves (it seems like they learn more and retain more).

But homework requests on TOTSE, i usually refuse to "help" with.

Considering that i saw it as disrespectful, i thought it might be ok to "help" out where i could.

Dont get me wrong, my intentions were not completely honorable... i could see some humor in it too.

As to why nobody argued with him, there is only 3 possibilities:

1. either they didnt proof-text the verse

2. they saw the prank

3. they agreed with you and wanted to "see" a "christian" fall flat in fromt of a kid

EDIT: is it maybe one of those things that got taken out of the bible? Maybe just maybe she used a copy that still had it. Which is very unlikely...

yes, unlikely... many texts that are included or withdrawn have footnotes letting one know the fact.[/B]

quote:Originally posted by xRadical_Wankerx:

do you think she knew what i was talking about and went right to it?

EDIT: dammit, i guess i owe her an apology then...

quote:Originally posted by xRadical_Wankerx:

Originally posted by xRadical_Wankerx:

do you think she knew what i was talking about and went right to it?

EDIT: dammit, i guess i owe her an apology then...





yeah well humilty is good for the soul :P

anyway don't feel to bad...she may have known where the verse was but you still made her sweat.not bad for a punk kid who couldn't spell cain yesterday.

ooops, i missed finishing part of my post

on #3 i left blank..

but Jack answered that possibility.

Jack made a typo, which i had noticed when he first posted it.

In reguards to that, and the post that i told you to pay attention to; Jack's wording of "God tried" to kill Moses.. it isnt that God tried, God was making known to Mose that HE wants complete obiedience.. and Zipporah knew what the situation was, and fixed it.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



yeah well humilty is good for the soul :P

anyway don't feel to bad...she may have known where the verse was but you still made her sweat.not bad for a punk kid who couldn't spell cain yesterday.



true that

quote: Zipporah knew what the situation was, and fixed it.



i am told that the verse is extremely confused and in what has been transmited the hebrew makes little sense. apparently it is unclear whose foreskin she cut off ...could have been god's..

so my teacher was right about me not understanding what she was trying to

say..? http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by xRadical_Wankerx:

so my teacher was right about me not understanding what she was trying to

say..? http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)



no ,it sounds like she was left floundering and couldn't make a firm clear statement.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

i am told that the verse is extremely confused and in what has been transmited the hebrew makes little sense. apparently it is unclear whose foreskin she cut off ...could have been god's..



Seems like i learned a lesson too. At that point, i had been working on memory, so i only checked one Bible (NIV... ya, ya, i know.. but it has the best footnotes) just to verify what i had assumed about the verse, and about my assumption of your motives.

Oh well, live and learn. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

xradical, the answer she tried to give you about them having regarded 'god as a bad god' was really weak. its not surprising you didn't understand it as it is pretty vague. for a theologian and trained teacher (ie supposed to know how to explain things so that you comprehend them!)it was a poor answer.

it would have been much better if she had said

' i don't know, the original is so garbled,no one has really been able to make sense of it.there are a couple of such verses in the bible. '.

that would have at least been honest.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

I was wrong. She had a crappy theology teacher.

then she said something along the lines of "its us that choose to do evil, which is our free-will and god cant do anything about that"

This gets into a very interesting debate. If God can't remove free-will or evil, then heaven (a place where supposably no evil exists) can't exist. If heaven exists, then God must be able to remove free-will or "evil."

That only true if her statement is valid, which it is not.

quote:Originally posted by xRadical_Wankerx:



After the break, some girl asked why god lets us suffer, then she said something along the lines of "its us that choose to do evil, which is our free-will and god cant do anything about that" then i remembered that post from yesterday that said that if god is all-mighty and powerfull there must be a way for him to be able to preserve free-will and get rid of evil. When i told her that she said, that it would still interfere with our free-will. i thaught to myself "very well.. she makes sense"

Just as a note... She DOESN'T make sense.

If god cannot remove suffering without interefering with free will, it would mean he does not have the power to do such a thing, and therefore that he is not omnipotent.

Thus, she DOES NOT make sense.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-17-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

That only true if her statement is valid, which it is not.

It's competely valid. Either free will or evil do not exist on heaven, or they do. If they do not, then he DOES remove either free will, evil or both. If they do exist, then one has the ability to do evil in heaven, and thus the possibility of suffering existing in heaven.

So can suffering exist in heaven, or does god remove free will, evil, or both?