Definitions:

God - Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing) and Omnibenevolent (all loving).

Freewill - A choice is not decided until the instant the choser decides and if the choser were to rewind time and have the exact same events lead up to the exact same choice they could choose differently.

Argument:

(1)If God is omniscient it knows what it will choose to do in the future.

(2)If God's knows what it will choose to do in the future it can not have freewill.

(3)If God does not have freewill he can not be omnipotent.

Therefore:

(5)God, as defined, can not exist.

My argument is open to debate.

Good way to twist the words of Aquinas there.

I wouldn't really question the existence of God, but I would wonder about the bullshit words written in bibles, that try to prove the existence of a God.

does not remove the fact a God exists just the fact of an Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnibenevolent God and that provided your logic is correct and as im to tired to debate right now...

Indeed, the argument ended with -

"God, as defined, can not exist."

Not -

"God does not exist."

Arguing against the existence of the christian God is redundant. A belief in it is a form of mental illness obvious to all intelligent people.

quote:Definitions:

God - Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing) and Omnibenevolent (all loving).

Freewill - A choice is not decided until the instant the choser decides and if the choser were to rewind time and have the exact same events lead up to the exact same choice they could choose differently.

Argument:

(1)If God is omniscient it knows what it will choose to do in the future.

(2)If God's knows what it will choose to do in the future it can not have freewill.

(3)If God does not have freewill he can not be omnipotent.

Therefore:

(5)God, as defined, can not exist.

My argument is open to debate.





Who said God was omniscient? God isn't just one being. The future can't be told because of free will. You can find possible futures from available choices, but that is all. I'm guessing your basing all of your statements on how christians define god. Oh, and yes god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

the bible said he was omniscient. doesnt make it true though.

I know I'm going to my friends party tonight. That doesn't mean that I don't have the free will not to go. I don't even believe in free will anyway, but I don't feel like typing out an explaination for it. Anyway, God exists in all places outside of time. The whole omnipresent thing. Here are some talky things about that that I haven't read, so don't blame me if they suck. I just know you people are to lazy to google. http://tinyurl.com/aeuvv

...I had to much to drink last night.

quote:Originally posted by railroad wino:

Arguing against the existence of the christian God is redundant. A belief in it is a form of mental illness obvious to all intelligent people.

Tell that to Einstein.....

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

(1)If God is omniscient it knows what it will choose to do in the future.

(2)If God's knows what it will choose to do in the future it can not have freewill.

(3)If God does not have freewill he can not be omnipotent.

Therefore:

(5)God, as defined, can not exist.



Knowing what will happen, does not stipulate forcing what will happen.

Also, human logic cannot apply when talking about god(any god). A god, by definition, is omnipotent, therefore it is inane to bound a god, by our limitations(logical or physical).

quote:Originally posted by Kannabis Korbano:

the bible said he was omniscient. doesnt make it true though.

Well the bible isn't supposed to be taken literally, IMO. But how about some quotes?

quote:Also, human logic cannot apply when talking about god(any god). A god, by definition, is omnipotent, therefore it is inane to bound a god, by our limitations(logical or physical).

If you were to understand the argument in full, you would realise that God, any God, can not be omnipotent whilst being omniscient. Omniscience would indicate that it had no freewill (as defined). If the God uses its omnipotence to give its self freewill it would lose its omniscience, if the God is unable to give itself freewill on account of losing its omniscience it is no longer omnipotent because there would be something that it can not do.

I am showing you that if there was a God, he would be limited and therefore, by definition would not be a God.

quote:The future can't be told because of free will. You can find possible futures from available choices, but that is all

You don't understand that we don't have freewill (as defined), it is an illusion, let me explain.

You come to a choice, lets say a fork in a road, you can decide left or right. You deliberate on this decision for a while trying to decide which way to go...you feel like you are free to decide, your not. If something out there already knows, before you choose, exactly what you are going to choose then it is already pre-destined that you will make that choice...in fact, that is the only choice you could have made, and if we rewound time you would make that same choice over and over again, therefore if God is omniscient not only does it not have freewill but neither do we.

If you don't understand i'd be happy to explain it more.

For now noone can set up a decent objection to my argument?

Digital_savior? lostcause? anyone?

quote:Originally posted by railroad wino:

Arguing against the existence of the christian God is redundant. A belief in it is a form of mental illness obvious to all intelligent people.

So, why havent you 'contracted' this mental illness?

I think your immunity lies in the fact that you run your mouth off before engaging your brain.

There are alot of intelligent people in this forum on boths sides of the fence... although i'm not one of them, it is nice to be in the company of them... if you slow down and think, you might be amazed at the level in this forum.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Knowing what will happen, does not stipulate forcing what will happen.



^^^^^^^^^^

Knowing the outcome does not eliminate free will, because it does not force the decision. A decision still has to be decided, it is just the outcome of that decision is known. This is a very basic argument, that has been brought up before by many people, and it is always refuted. Whether you decide to accept that is up to you.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Tell that to Einstein.....



Tell that to George W.....

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:



Tell that to George W.....

That is just stupid. No one on here claims that Bush is a genius.

railroad wino made an idiotic generalization, that has no support, so I don't know why you're trying to validate it.

Instead of distracting attention by pointless posts and replies to pointless posts, it would be nice if we could argue about the argument that this thread is about.

That said,

quote:Knowing the outcome does not eliminate free will

Yes, it does. The definition of freewill does not stand up if it is possible to know the outcome of a decision before it is decided.

Therefore, if you are not willing to refute my argument you have two options, redefine freewill, or redefine God.

It doesn't eliminate free will, because it does not force anything. For free will to be gone, the decision has to be made be an outside source, or the options for decisions must be narrowed to one. God knowing the decision does neither.

Knowing the outcome of an event does not make the event happen in the way it was known.

God knowing I will buy a newspaper tommorrow morning, does not force me to buy a newspaper. The decision must still be made, therefore there is still freewill.

quote:Freewill - A choice is not decided until the instant the choser decides and if the choser were to rewind time and have the exact same events lead up to the exact same choice they could choose differently.

quote:God knowing I will buy a newspaper tommorrow morning, does not force me to buy a newspaper. The decision must still be made, therefore there is still freewill.

If God knows you will buy a newspaper, then you will buy a newspaper and you have no choice about it, any choice you thought you made is illusory, illusory enough for you to believe it could be called freewill.

If we rewound time over and over again, you would make the same 'decision' to buy the newspaper, you would never decide differently, you would never 'decide' not to buy the newspaper...in reality you only had one option...

If you are willing to call that freewill, and change the definition of freewill to something that satisfies that then be my guest. Ironic isn't it, that to believe in genuine freewill as defined above we have to abandon God.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

If God knows you will buy a newspaper, then you will buy a newspaper and you have no choice about it, any choice you thought you made is illusory, illusory enough for you to believe it could be called freewill.

I do not buy a newspaper because god is making me, I'm buying it because it is my decision. God does not make anyone do anything, therefore, it is wrong to say that we don't have freewill. Free will implies we are making a decision. You have to show that either we aren't making the decision or that our choices are cut down to one, to proclaim that we have no free will.

quote:If we rewound time over and over again, you would make the same 'decision' to buy the newspaper, you would never decide differently, you would never 'decide' not to buy the newspaper...in reality you only had one option...

That makes no sense. I would make the same decision over and over again, because it would be the exact same situation over and over again.

quote:If you are willing to call that freewill, and change the definition of freewill to something that satisfies that then be my guest. Ironic isn't it, that to believe in genuine freewill as defined above we have to abandon God.

No we don't, you just assume we do.

Also, your definition of free will makes zero sense, especially since it cannot be applied at all in the real world. It is a poor definition.

Napoleon:

"God knowing I will buy a newspaper tommorrow morning, does not force me to buy a newspaper. The decision must still be made, therefore there is still freewill."

You're neglecting a very important aspect here, Napoleon. You cannot stray from the future that God is aware of without first knowing what that future is. So, yes, in the case of ignorance of the future, the scenario might hold up (you will decide to buy that paper). However, if you are able to see the same future that God views, free will would imply the ability to reject that future.

Daz's argument is that this would apply to God as well. Knowing your future actions, yet not being able to stray from that path would imply that there is no free will. Knowing the future yet being able to stray from the path would imply that this knowledge of the future is not entirely stable or reliable.

/done rambling.

Redefine it then.

EDIT: The above post made me realise something, we are getting distracted from the real issue in the argument and that is God doesn't have freewill.

[This message has been edited by Daz (edited 06-21-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

You're neglecting a very important aspect here, Napoleon. You cannot stray from the future that God is aware of without first knowing what that future is. So, yes, in the case of ignorance of the future, the scenario might hold up (you will decide to buy that paper). However, if you are able to see the same future that God views, free will would imply the ability to reject that future.

Well since we can't see what god sees, that is a moot point.

quote:Daz's argument is that this would apply to God as well. Knowing your future actions, yet not being able to stray from that path would imply that there is no free will. Knowing the future yet being able to stray from the path would imply that this knowledge of the future is not entirely stable or reliable.

First of all, God would not bound by either logic or himself, so that is really just a bad point. Second of all, knowledge of the future does not nullify one's decision, or force a decision.

For free will to be non-existent, the decision would either have to be made for me by an outside entity; or my number of choices would have to be slimmed down to one.

His arguement does neither.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Redefine it then.

EDIT: The above post made me realise something, we are getting distracted from the real issue in the argument and that is God doesn't have freewill.



God not having free will is just ludicrous, because god(through his omnipotence) can do anything, even contradict your logic.

Definition: Free will is the philosophical doctrine that holds that our choices are ultimately up to ourselves.

That thing about rewinding the past is just retarded and pointless.

Napoleon:

"Well since we can't see what god sees, that is a moot point."

Not really, considering that Daz's argument has been dealing with God's abilities, not yours. Therefore, you have to look at this from God's perspective.

"First of all, God would not bound by either logic or himself, so that is really just a bad point."

... yeeeah...

"Second of all, knowledge of the future does not nullify one's decision, or force a decision."

Yes, it does. If you know exactly what is going to occur in the future, yet are powerless to change it, then your decision-making abilities are gone. It's going to happen.

However, if you are able to alter the future you've seen, then you haven't seen the "true future".

"For free will to be non-existent, the decision would either have to be made for me by an outside entity; or my number of choices would have to be slimmed down to one."

Again, since this argument is dealing with God's abilities, you have to consider knowing the future as well as the potential to change it.

quote:God not having free will is just ludicrous, because god(through his omnipotence) can do anything, even contradict your logic.

If it is so ludicrous then i would like you to atleast give a decent objection to my argument. It is through God's omnipotence that it can not be omniscient and it is through its omniscience that it can not be omnipotent.

Personaly im afraid to deny the existance of god, without God life would be meaningless,i see the meaning in my life to be working towards achieving salvation... education,enjoyment any acomplishment is a temporary solution to the inevitability death and all acomplishments you make will be forgotten upon your death

id advise you not to throw your purpose away http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Faith by means of fear. Congratulations.

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

Faith by means of fear. Congratulations.

My fear of god dose not take the meaning from my belief that our life is the time for prove of worth and achieving salvation



and it is nothing wrong with believing in something due to fear essentaily everyones life is based around fear other wise we would have total anarchy wouldent we http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Indeed without divine purpose life as a whole would hold no meaning, that is not to say that your individual life can not have meaning, it gains meaning from you giving it meaning...and with the knowledge that there is no God you are free to make that meaning what ever you want.

Do you want to live your life basing the things you do on an entity that does not exist?

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

Not really, considering that Daz's argument has been dealing with God's abilities, not yours. Therefore, you have to look at this from God's perspective.

quote:Yes, it does. If you know exactly what is going to occur in the future, yet are powerless to change it, then your decision-making abilities are gone. It's going to happen.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

Doing this from God's perspective makes no sense whatsoever, because the God in question is omnipotent, which means he can do anything, including going against human logic.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Indeed without divine purpose life as a whole would hold no meaning, that is not to say that your individual life can not have meaning, it gains meaning from you giving it meaning...and with the knowledge that there is no God you are free to make that meaning what ever you want.

Do you want to live your life basing the things you do on an entity that does not exist?

that may suffice for you but for me i cant conjure up my own meaning and how can you say that your supposed meaning is true what are you basing it off, i guess we will see on judgement day weather it suffices for god , id beg you to change you can belive in god and not have fear of rules "no sin is to great" and i am sorry i ever put my own feeling that i am afraid of god in my contirbution, know that you cant contradict a religion based on one worshipers beliefs

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

If it is so ludicrous then i would like you to atleast give a decent objection to my argument. It is through God's omnipotence that it can not be omniscient and it is through its omniscience that it can not be omnipotent.

Well, what is ludicrous is your definition of free will.

I've already disputed your argument(#2 is your misstep).

G

quote:Well, what is ludicrous is your definition of free will.

Even your definition will fit the argument.

quote:I've already disputed your argument(#2 is your misstep).

"(2)If God's knows what it will choose to do in the future it can not have freewill."

You think that God can know what it will choose to do in the future, and yet, still have freewill?

That would mean that it knows what it is going to do in the future, and yet, choose differently...would that not prove he is not omniscient?

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

"(2)If God's knows what it will choose to do in the future it can not have freewill."

You think that God can know what it will choose to do in the future, and yet, still have freewill?

That would mean that it knows what it is going to do in the future, and yet, choose differently...would that not prove he is not omniscient?

my advice dont even try to use logic or be an intellectual as far as christians or people of other faiths are concerned god is everything he can make things appear anyway he wants, he is testing your faith by leaving you with questions like this and the thought of denoucing him with logic is the path to satanism

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

"(2)If God's knows what it will choose to do in the future it can not have freewill."

You think that God can know what it will choose to do in the future, and yet, still have freewill?

That would mean that it knows what it is going to do in the future, and yet, choose differently...would that not prove he is not omniscient?

What do you mean when you say "choose differenty"? I just want to clear that up before I reply.

quote:Originally posted by Theyellowdart:

my advice dont even try to use logic or be an intellectual as far as christians or people of other faiths are concerned god is everything he can make things appear anyway he wants, he is testing your faith by leaving you with questions like this and the thought of denoucing him with logic is the path to satanism

Go fuck yourself asswipe.

I'm by no means christian, and you can just go suck off a black man for all I care.

Ok,

By saying (2) is my slip up you are indicating that God can know what it will choose to do in the future and still have freewill becasue it is omnipotent.

That would mean that God can know what it is going to choose to do in the future, but because he is omnipotent he could choose to do something else. It is a contradiction.

If God is omniscient, it will know what it is going to do and therefore can not choose.

If God is omnipotent, it can give itself freewill and therefore no longer be omniscient.

Napoleon:

"Doing this from God's perspective makes no sense whatsoever, because the God in question is omnipotent, which means he can do anything, including going against human logic."

... How can you have a debate about God's abilities without looking at it from a God's perspective? Does your inability to see the future in your scenario have anything to do with whether or not God is omniscient?

And yes, we are looking at this logically, or at least attempting to do so. Please don't finish up your argument with, "Because He can".

Yellow Dart:

"and it is nothing wrong with believing in something due to fear essentaily everyones life is based around fear other wise we would have total anarchy wouldent we"

No. We don't all use fear as the foundation for our beliefs and the basis for our lives. Fear can be a tool for survival. For instance, the fear of falling over the railing on a 40-story building. That serves a purpose.

On the other hand, death is an entirely unknown experience, at least for all of us still here. Fear of death and the many possible outcomes of that death serves absolutely no purpose.

"and how can you say that your supposed meaning is true what are you basing it off"

How can you say that your meaning is true? Your supposed salvation. What is your reasoning for this belief other than an irrational fear?

"know that you cant contradict a religion based on one worshipers beliefs"

No, but it is simple enough to criticize the worshipper.

"the thought of denoucing him with logic is the path to satanism"

Yes, using these big brains, supposedly given to us by God himself, to think things through logically... makes us devils.

"Go fuck yourself asswipe." Thanks for the laugh, Napoleon.

my comments were directed towards DAZ and his use of logic against God, why are you mad at me?

Are... are you twelve years old?

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Ok,

By saying (2) is my slip up you are indicating that God can know what it will choose to do in the future and still have freewill becasue it is omnipotent.

That would mean that God can know what it is going to choose to do in the future, but because he is omnipotent he could choose to do something else. It is a contradiction.

No it isn't. It does not limit his ability to choose. It does not force god to make a choice against his free will.

quote:If God is omniscient, it will know what it is going to do and therefore can not choose. If God is omnipotent, it can give itself freewill and therefore no longer be omniscient.

Knowing what it will do does not force it into an unwanted choice. That is where you slip up. God knowing what it will do, does not limit his choices. He simply knows that choice before hand. In no way does this prove god doesn't have free will.

God has free will. God makes decisions, he simply knows the answer before hand. Seems confusing? Well it, because it is unfathomable to humans for an entity to possess that ability.

if you know anything about satanism the prime set of rules contains that stupidity is a sin and the path deals with indulgence and being a intellectual, by me saying using logic to denounce god is the path to satanism i am essentailly correct thats not to say you cant use your "big brains"?? im not trying to spark conflict within this room merely putting down what i know and believe

All i am doing is taking two of Gods characteristics and showing them to be incompatible.

Your God does not exist.

Your fear of death and what happens after death is all that is keeping him alive.

Let go.

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

... How can you have a debate about God's abilities without looking at it from a God's perspective? Does your inability to see the future in your scenario have anything to do with whether or not God is omniscient?

Well that was where I was confused. You kept saying "your", so I figured you were talking about my abilities, not Gods.

quote:And yes, we are looking at this logically, or at least attempting to do so. Please don't finish up your argument with, "Because He can".

Explain to me then how an omnipotent being can't do anything and everything it wants to?

quote:Explain to me then how an omnipotent being can't do anything and everything it wants to?

Becasue it is omniscient.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:



Becasue it is omniscient.

That would only imply that he knows anything and everything it will do. It doesn't imply that he can't do anything it wants to.

what time is it in new zealand?

quote:Originally posted by Theyellowdart:

what time is it in new zealand?

http://tinyurl.com/7qgcn

well its 1:39 am here on the east coast of the united states, and i have some skatin and world of warcrafting to do tomarrow i hope you all find some sort of security in where you going after death and shit like that..

Napoleon:

"Well that was where I was confused. You kept saying "your", so I figured you were talking about my abilities, not Gods."

No problem.

"Explain to me then how an omnipotent being can't do anything and everything it wants to?"

Well, that seems to be the question of the night. =)

"That would only imply that he knows anything and everything it will do. It doesn't imply that he can't do anything it wants to."

You (God perspective) are given choices A and B. You know you will choose B.

If you cannot defy the path you have seen and choose option A, then you are not all-powerful.

If you can and do defy the future you have seen, then that was never the actual future, and you are not all-knowing.

You (napoleon now, hehe) cannot use the argument that God will defy my logic, "Because he can", since it is his omnipotence that is at question, here.

It isn't that late. I'm in the eastern time zone, and I'm wide awake http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif) .

Anyways, I tell you what I think of the afterlife once I get there.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Knowing what will happen, does not stipulate forcing what will happen.



Don't listen to napoleon_complex, he makes this argument every time someone makes yours, Daz. It's not valid, as God was supposedly omiscient before he created the universe, the earth, and all people. In this awareness, his act of creation forced all things to happen. Arguing otherwise is like blaming a murder on the bullet and the person who didn't move out of the way, instead of the person who aimed fired the gun.

EDIT: This has been argued dead before, and in some really dumb ways. So I probably won't post here again unless something really insightful is said, and I definitely won't post here again if napoleon responds by again reiterating his logic for us.

[This message has been edited by Adorkable (edited 06-21-2005).]

And your logic is just "stunning".... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

No one can be right, mostly because if there is a god, we can't know his nature. This is all speculation made off agregious assumptions.

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

You (God perspective) are given choices A and B. You know you will choose B.

If you cannot defy the path you have seen and choose option A, then you are not all-powerful.

This is really hard to explain, but I'll try(hopefully without becoming redundant).

If god were presented with a decision(A or B), he would already know what decision he will make. However, in no way does this limit his free will. His omniscient attribute is merely of an observational nature. He simply knows the outcome. This does not mean that this limits the choices, or renders the choice for it. Under the very broad definition of free will I provided("Free will is the philosophical doctrine that holds that our choices are ultimately up to ourselves."), your example does not negate God's free will. It does not render a decision for him. He still makes the decision, and that is free will; making our own decisions.

If you can and do defy the future you have seen, then that was never the actual future, and you are not all-knowing.

You (napoleon now, hehe) cannot use the argument that God will defy my logic, "Because he can", since it is his omnipotence that is at question, here.[/B][/QUOTE]

quote:If god were presented with a decision(A or B), he would already know what decision he will make. However, in no way does this limit his free will. His omniscient attribute is merely of an observational nature. He simply knows the outcome. This does not mean that this limits the choices, or renders the choice for it. Under the very broad definition of free will I provided("Free will is the philosophical doctrine that holds that our choices are ultimately up to ourselves."), your example does not negate God's free will. It does not render a decision for him. He still makes the decision, and that is free will; making our own decisions.

"The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."

-Definition from dictionary.com, more reliable than wikipedia...



If God is truely omniscient it knows what decisions it will make and what the outcomes of them decisions will be, it can pick any point in the future and know the events of it...doesn't that sound a lot like fate??

Now if God was truely omnipotent it would not be succeptible to fate and could change the future. however, doing this would put a question mark on its omniscience, and not doing this would allow us to question his omniptence.

Which will it be?

(I'm still waiting for someone else other than napoleon to try and refute this)

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Definitions:

God - Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing) and Omnibenevolent (all loving).

My simple thoughts outside of dogma:

That is mankind defining God without having true knowledge of what they define.

So, maybe God is all these things to mankind, but not to himself?

If he is seen as being limitless to us, does that actually make him limitless?

Based upon the assumption that there might be a 'God'.

Why do people 'argue' things that they don't believe in?



edit: or better yet. Defining God in that way is actually another way of defining what we are (or rather, what we are not).



[This message has been edited by Flesh (edited 06-21-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

"The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."

-Definition from dictionary.com, more reliable than wikipedia...



If God is truely omniscient it knows what decisions it will make and what the outcomes of them decisions will be, it can pick any point in the future and know the events of it...doesn't that sound a lot like fate??

Now if God was truely omnipotent it would not be succeptible to fate and could change the future. however, doing this would put a question mark on its omniscience, and not doing this would allow us to question his omniptence.

Which will it be?

(I'm still waiting for someone else other than napoleon to try and refute this)



I did have someone tell me once that God is outside of time (since he created it) and is not contained within it. Only we are.

So God always lives in the 'now'?

Speculation.

This is a good argument and pretty much fool proof, except it doesn't proof God doesn't exist, just that it if God does exist, it cancels itself out in effect. Eh?

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

"The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."

-Definition from dictionary.com, more reliable than wikipedia...

It isn't a more "reliable" definition, it's just more convenient for your argument becuase it isn't as broad a definition.



quote:If God is truely omniscient it knows what decisions it will make and what the outcomes of them decisions will be, it can pick any point in the future and know the events of it...doesn't that sound a lot like fate??

Now if God was truely omnipotent it would not be succeptible to fate and could change the future. however, doing this would put a question mark on its omniscience, and not doing this would allow us to question his omniptence.

Which will it be?

You can't just change the definition mid argument because it suits you better. Fate hasn't even been mentioned up until now, so don't even bring it up.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Tell that to Einstein.....

Tell him what? Einstein wasn't Christian. The fucking bullshit people will make up to support their beliefs... Geez...

---

The only possible resolution to what Daz has sais is to claim that god can do away with our logic, and thus still know the future while still preserving out free will. Everything else fails as an argument, which is why everysingle person here has failed to refute Daz, save for using the above.



quote:You can't just change the definition mid argument because it suits you better. Fate hasn't even been mentioned up until now, so don't even bring it up.

Err.. YOU changed the definition mid-argument. He provided his in the first post. If you disagreed with his definition at first, then don't go accusing him of changing his definition when he is only changing it to satisfy you! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:It isn't a more "reliable" definition, it's just more convenient for your argument becuase it isn't as broad a definition.



Your definition makes no difference.

"Free will is the philosophical doctrine that holds that our choices are ultimately up to ourselves."

I cannot choose B, and thus my choice is not ultimately up to me, if god knows, before I am even born, before I even know what A or B are, that I will choose A. I cannot choose B since if I did, god wouldn't have "known" that I was going to choose A.

Your definition does nothing. The argument still stands.

I understand what you're trying to say, Napoleon. God simply knows what it would choose in any given situation. It knows the "right" choice.

I'm simply asking what if God somehow, for some reason, decides to defy the future choices that it has seen and accepted? See what I'm getting at?

It may know what it will choose in the future, yet this knowledge itself allows the ability to change that future decision.

"If god were presented with a decision(A or B), he would already know what decision he will make. However, in no way does this limit his free will."

But it does limit him, in a sense. Once he knows the outcome, the other possibility becomes irrelevant. If he knows he'll choose B, then option A is essentially non-existent. It's gone. I'm trying to get at whether or not God would be capable of even disrupting its own future choices. I'm not concerned with his ability to know the "right" answer, just whether or not both options are entirely possible.

I'm repeating myself... and probably not making much sense.

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

I'm simply asking what if God somehow, for some reason, decides to defy the future choices that it has seen and accepted? See what I'm getting at?

That is a very very difficult circumstance to guess at. I think it is impossible to answer this question.

quote:But it does limit him, in a sense. Once he knows the outcome, the other possibility becomes irrelevant. If he knows he'll choose B, then option A is essentially non-existent. It's gone. I'm trying to get at whether or not God would be capable of even disrupting its own future choices. I'm not concerned with his ability to know the "right" answer, just whether or not both options are entirely possible.

No it isn't. The other possibility is still there. It has just been left alone. If you choose an apple over an orange, the orange doesn't become nonexistent. Same thing with the situation I described.

This thread is become boring, so I think I'll stop before I lose my sanity.

quote:I'm trying to get at whether or not God would be capable of even disrupting its own future choices.

If it can disrupt its own future choices it is not omniscient and if it can't disrupt its future choices it is not omnipotent.

quote:If he is seen as being limitless to us, does that actually make him limitless?

Indeed, this is part of my point, he clearly can not, in reality be limitless...so what are his limits??

I think the mere acknowledgement that God has limits would be too much for some religious people.

Im curious as to why no other common theists (ie : Digital_Savior) have seriously tried to debate this argument.

[This message has been edited by Daz (edited 06-22-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:



For free will to be non-existent, the decision would either have to be made for me by an outside entity; or my number of choices would have to be slimmed down to one.

His arguement does neither.

Napoleon, if God knows what you're going to do in advance your choices are slimmed down to one. The one choice God already knows you're going to make.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

And your logic is just "stunning".... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)



Because you haven't found a way to refute it other than saying "look, nobody is right because we can't even comprehend god as humans"? How convenient.

quote:Originally posted by Adorkable:

Because you haven't found a way to refute it other than saying "look, nobody is right because we can't even comprehend god as humans"? How convenient.

It was more of a comment on how you didn't present ANY logic whatsoever that pertains to the discussion at hand.

Also, CAN we comprehend God(assuming God exists)? The very nature of a god would necessitate that we couldn't understand it. Also, I have not fallen back on that answer.

You're just a dipshit.

quote:Originally posted by PyroHydroSmok:

Napoleon, if God knows what you're going to do in advance your choices are slimmed down to one. The one choice God already knows you're going to make.

For that to be accurate, then there would have to be a way to show that you know what God knows. In your mind, when you're making the decision, all the options are still there. You can't be looking at that situation from God's perspective.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

It was more of a comment on how you didn't present ANY logic whatsoever that pertains to the discussion at hand.

Also, CAN we comprehend God(assuming God exists)? The very nature of a god would necessitate that we couldn't understand it. Also, I have not fallen back on that answer.

You're just a dipshit.

"No logic"... ok... well I'm going to have to assume that you were incapable of understanding it until someone I regard as intelligent states the same. So you're saying both that I'm wrong because my post was not logical... and because human logic does not apply to god? Lost me there. As for your not having "fallen back on that answer", it's kind of a hard claim to make when you didn't follow it up with the answer you're still standing on. Your reply to my request for you to refute my argument contained absolutely no refutation, but instead an insult and some baseless claims left unelaborated upon. Kind of similar to the hackneyed sarcasm in your first reply. I'd be glad to listen whole-heartedly if you'd like to say something; otherwise, don't waste my time with your tendencies to be willing and proud to explain the logic behind your own argument and then incapable of explaining the claimed lack thereof in another's argument.

quote:I cannot choose B, and thus my choice is not ultimately up to me, if god knows, before I am even born, before I even know what A or B are, that I will choose A. I cannot choose B since if I did, god wouldn't have "known" that I was going to choose A.

You can choose B, just as you could choose A. Whether you choose A or B, God will have known what you chose long before you made that choice.

Once again, God KNOWING what you will choose and when you will choose it doesn't force that choice upon you.

Since He is not confined within our time constraints, His knowing your choice doesn't remove your ability to choose out of free will.

You can't switch it up on God...He knows what you will choose, because it was your choice, and He knows everything.

His knowledge of your choice doesn't mean He forced you to make it. It means He is here, He was there, and He will be there in the future, without time confining Him. Omnipresent. He knows what you chose, because He was there when you chose it, long before you even existed, because He doesn't exist in our time.

He is still present for the choices you made ten years ago, and He is present for the choices you will make ten years from now.

I don't see why you can't understand that, except for being intentionally obtuse.

quote:You can choose B, just as you could choose A. Whether you choose A or B, God will have known what you chose long before you made that choice.

Once again, God KNOWING what you will choose and when you will choose it doesn't force that choice upon you.

Since He is not confined within our time constraints, His knowing your choice doesn't remove your ability to choose out of free will.

You can't switch it up on God...He knows what you will choose, because it was your choice, and He knows everything.

His knowledge of your choice doesn't mean He forced you to make it. It means He is here, He was there, and He will be there in the future, without time confining Him. Omnipresent. He knows what you chose, because He was there when you chose it, long before you even existed, because He doesn't exist in our time.

He is still present for the choices you made ten years ago, and He is present for the choices you will make ten years from now.

I don't see why you can't understand that, except for being intentionally obtuse.

Well, that was nice, now back to the original argument...this isn't about our freewill, it is not even about our choices...this is about God, and how God knows its own choices before hand therefore God has no freewill.

Nice try.

quote:Originally posted by Adorkable:

"No logic"... ok... well I'm going to have to assume that you were incapable of understanding it until someone I regard as intelligent states the same. So you're saying both that I'm wrong because my post was not logical... and because human logic does not apply to god? Lost me there. As for your not having "fallen back on that answer", it's kind of a hard claim to make when you didn't follow it up with the answer you're still standing on. Your reply to my request for you to refute my argument contained absolutely no refutation, but instead an insult and some baseless claims left unelaborated upon. Kind of similar to the hackneyed sarcasm in your first reply. I'd be glad to listen whole-heartedly if you'd like to say something; otherwise, don't waste my time with your tendencies to be willing and proud to explain the logic behind your own argument and then incapable of explaining the claimed lack thereof in another's argument.

It's not that it wasn't logical, it wasn't that there was no argument. Your original post had nothing to do at all with this conversation. There was no logic in it, because there was no argument.

quote:Originally posted by Adorkable:

Don't listen to napoleon_complex, he makes this argument every time someone makes yours, Daz. It's not valid, as God was supposedly omiscient before he created the universe, the earth, and all people. In this awareness, his act of creation forced all things to happen. Arguing otherwise is like blaming a murder on the bullet and the person who didn't move out of the way, instead of the person who aimed fired the gun.

EDIT: This has been argued dead before, and in some really dumb ways. So I probably won't post here again unless something really insightful is said, and I definitely won't post here again if napoleon responds by again reiterating his logic for us.



Yeah, you really presented a great logical argument in that post... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Well, that was nice, now back to the original argument...this isn't about our freewill, it is not even about our choices...this is about God, and how God knows its own choices before hand therefore God has no freewill.

Nice try.

Let's say you're in line at a fast food place. You know what you're going to order when they ask you. You're absolutely positive as to what you're going to get. Now, when you get to the front of the line and the little shit behind the counter asks you what you want, you still have the choice of picking everything on the board. However, you don't and you pick what you've already decided you'll pick. You maintain all your choices even though you've already predecided on a choice.

Now, let us say that God is deciding whether or not to create earth. He has the option of not creating it or creating it. Two options. He knows that he is going to create the earth, but he still has the option not to build it. He maintains his free will even though he knows what decision he is going to make.

Free will only means that you have the possibility to make other choices, which he does. It doesn't mean you have to take them.

That applies to God also. In that he maintains his omnipotence, omniscience, and his free will. That is my last effort with you. If you can't see how that works, then you're as stubborn as the worst christians I've ever encountered.

If that explanation doesn't suffice, I just thought of an alternative one. When god culminated, he instantly knew everything. That means god had to go through and make the decisions before he was presented with them, This just means that it made the decision before it was actually presented with the decision. God knew everything, therefore it would have known all possibilities and circumstances surrounding a decision. This means that god could have very easily just made the decision before being presented with the decision in reality(poor word choice probably).

I think both of these perfectly refute your claim. Whether you choose to accept them is up to you. I actually quite like the second one.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You can choose B, just as you could choose A. Whether you choose A or B, God will have known what you chose long before you made that choice.

Wrong. I cannot choose B because god knew, before I even existed, before I could even choose, that I would choose A, and hence, the choice of B does not exist, when I am confronted with the choice between A and B, in the future.

quote:[b]

Once again, God KNOWING what you will choose and when you will choose it doesn't force that choice upon you.

Since He is not confined within our time constraints, His knowing your choice doesn't remove your ability to choose out of free will.



His time reference is irrelevant. The point is, and was, that free will is defined as being able to choose from more than one thing.

When I am confronted with the choice of A and B, I CANNOT choose B, and hence I have no free will.



quote:You can't switch it up on God...He knows what you will choose, because it was your choice, and He knows everything.

That's exactly what makes it logically impossible for me to have free will while he knows everything.

quote:

His knowledge of your choice doesn't mean He forced you to make it. It means He is here, He was there, and He will be there in the future, without time confining Him. Omnipresent. He knows what you chose, because He was there when you chose it, long before you even existed, because He doesn't exist in our time.



Of course it means that.

For you to claim otherwise you would need to show me how in the world I could choose B, when he, before I was even born, before I even knew I would have to make a choice, "knew" that I would choose A. Tell me, how could I choose B?

Either do so or admit that you cannot.

quote:

He is still present for the choices you made ten years ago, and He is present for the choices you will make ten years from now.

Irrelevant that is not being discussed.

quote:

I don't see why you can't understand that, except for being intentionally obtuse.

Nobody, except YOU and Napoleon believe Daz is incorrect; which speaks greatly to your lack of logic.

But you're right. I AM being obtuse. I don't want to abandon logic like you; I obtusely follow it. You obviously don't.

P.S. As a friendly reminder I am waiting for your reply on the other thread.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

For that to be accurate, then there would have to be a way to show that you know what God knows. In your mind, when you're making the decision, all the options are still there. You can't be looking at that situation from God's perspective.

If he's omniscient he MUST know whatever we're discussing, no matter what. Hence, he doesn't have to show anything.

Moreover, it is irrelevant if in his mind all the choices are there, because we're not talking about what we may percieve, but what really is. The example I've used time and time again, and that I'm sure you know by now and deliberatly abandon it, is: Oedipus Rex. He had no free will, yet to him, it appears that he did. That same scenario could be possible here, and therefore what we discuss is not if we percieve it to be "free will" but if it is so.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Well, that was nice, now back to the original argument...this isn't about our freewill, it is not even about our choices...this is about God, and how God knows its own choices before hand therefore God has no freewill.

Nice try.

Ummm...I wasn't talking to YOU.

And what you just said wasn't even a matter of contention, with regards to my post.

*blinks*

quote:Posted by Rust:

Wrong. I cannot choose B because god knew, before I even existed, before I could even choose, that I would choose A, and hence, the choice of B does not exist, when I am confronted with the choice between A and B, in the future.

This is a perfect example of how you are being intentionally obtuse.

I have explained it, and in very "dumb" terms, just so there would be no confusion. It makes perfect sense, but because you don't want to admit that there is a God, you ignore minor instances in the explanation, so that you won't have to.

Once again, it is not HIS KNOWLEDGE of your choice that makes you choose it. Your choice was made, and He knew about it long before you made it. Not because He made you choose it, but because He is not confined by time, and is therefore here, there, and everywhwre.

You can choose A, or you can choose B...either way, He will know.

That does not rob you of your right to choose either A or B. As a matter of fact, His knowing doesn't change what you choose either way.

He KNEW you would choose YOUR CHOICE.

YOURS !

quote:His time reference is irrelevant. The point is, and was, that free will is defined as being able to choose from more than one thing.

It is not irrelevant, as it presents the proof that if He can be everywhere, at all times (past, present, and future), He is capable of knowing what you choose now, then, and in the future without hindering your free will.

Perfectly relevant.

quote:When I am confronted with the choice of A and B, I CANNOT choose B, and hence I have no free will.

And by saying that, you are putting time constraints on God.

He will not ever fit into a little box, so you should probably start perceiving Him as one who does not.

You CAN choose B. Or, you can choose A. Doesn't matter. He knows what you have chosen, because He is omnipresent.

quote:That's exactly what makes it logically impossible for me to have free will while he knows everything.

Please explain why His knowing your choice forces you to choose your choice.

quote:Of course it means that.

For you to claim otherwise you would need to show me how in the world I could choose B, when he, before I was even born, before I even knew I would have to make a choice, "knew" that I would choose A. Tell me, how could I choose B?

Either do so or admit that you cannot.

You make that demand in almost every argument. It's funny. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Anyway, He knew you would choose A, because you chose it. Not the other way around.

The fact that you chose A gives Him the knowledge of your choice, and since time does not apply to Him, He knew it long before you made it, because He existed in His all-knowing state before you existed, while you exist, and after you are gone.

quote:Irrelevant that is not being discussed.

How He could know everything you choose in your lifetime makes that statement relevant, since it is a part of the explanation. If He didn't know what you chose in your past, present, or future, this explanation simply wouldn't work.

quote:Nobody, except YOU and Napoleon believe Daz is incorrect; which speaks greatly to your lack of logic.

But you're right. I AM being obtuse. I don't want to abandon logic like you; I obtusely follow it. You obviously don't.

P.S. As a friendly reminder I am waiting for your reply on the other thread.

Last time I checked, my logic tank was on full. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I also didn't realize that the "majority rules" theory was correct !

When all of Nazi Germany launched an offensive against the Jews, were they right ? They were mostly all in agreement, so...therefore, they are villified. The Jews ought to give their retribution money back ! Justice is served.

It is simply lacking in logic to say that because I hold a minority view, I am illogical.

And yes...I know you're waiting. I am waiting for motivation. *smiles*

A discussion on Free Will vs Omniscience:

Dave (Catholic) - The interaction between free will and omniscience is indeed a difficult theological conundrum, but the two are not mutually exclusive. If omniscience is indeed All-Knowing, it could certainly Know how to budget for its own gift of free will to its creatures.

Andy (atheist) - Quite simply, the question is: Can you do something that God does not know you will do before you do it? If the answer is no, then free will is but an illusion. If the answer is yes, then your god is not omniscient. In other words, you don't have any clue how to reconcile them, but you're sure that your god does, and that's good enough for you. So much for intellectual rigor and the application of reason to the world around us!

Dave - Here I think Andy is being a little bit harsh. I can conceive of a God that is all-knowing, seeing all that has past, seeing all that is, and seeing all of the possibilities that will be, without directly affecting the free will of humans. As such, the answer to Andy's question above is, no, you can't make a decision without God knowing, because God knows all of the possibilities. Does God know which possibility you might choose? This is unknown to me. For me, this is the conundrum (highlighted in italics above) that Andy is railing against. But I can think of much on this corporeal plane that is not immediately explicable, but yet we live with it everyday. The phenomenon of electricity, magnetism, and gravity are still mysteries in their origins. We do not fully understand these essential phenomena, but yet they are an integral part of our lives. We know how to create electricity and magnetism. We haven't yet mastered gravity. Does this mean that we lack intellectual rigor? No. It simply means we are still on the quest for understanding.

It is the same for many of the mysteries of God. God is ineffable. We understand so much more about our universe now than we did 200 years ago. But it certainly doesn't mean that we are finished in our exploration. While faith requires reasonableness, it also requires patience. So I think Andy is wrong in thinking that free-will and omniscience are mutually exclusive, simply because we can't explain them in fullness now.

----------------------------------------



Perhaps that is where it should lie.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



This is a perfect example of how you are being intentionally obtuse.

I have explained it, and in very "dumb" terms, just so there would be no confusion. It makes perfect sense, but because you don't want to admit that there is a God, you ignore minor instances in the explanation, so that you won't have to.

Once again, it is not HIS KNOWLEDGE of your choice that makes you choose it. Your choice was made, and He knew about it long before you made it. Not because He made you choose it, but because He is not confined by time, and is therefore here, there, and everywhwre.

You can choose A, or you can choose B...either way, He will know.

That does not rob you of your right to choose either A or B. As a matter of fact, His knowing doesn't change what you choose either way.

He KNEW you would choose YOUR CHOICE.

YOURS !

Again, wrong. His knowledge limits my choices, since I cannot choose anything other than what he says I will choose.

quote:It is not irrelevant, as it presents the proof that if He can be everywhere, at all times (past, present, and future), He is capable of knowing what you choose now, then, and in the future without hindering your free will.

Perfectly relevant.

Not relevant because nobody is denying that he could be in the past, future, or present. What we're debating is whether or not that knowledge removes our choices and thus free will, which it does.

quote:And by saying that, you are putting time constraints on God.

He will not ever fit into a little box, so you should probably start perceiving Him as one who does not.

You CAN choose B. Or, you can choose A. Doesn't matter. He knows what you have chosen, because He is omnipresent.

Great. You claim that I am putting constraints on him then don't show where! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

The only place were time is relevant is when he knows what I will do. Nowhere else. If he knows what I will do, before I even know of the possible choices, then I have no free will because I cannot choose B, if he "knew" I was going to choose A.

quote:Please explain why His knowing your choice forces you to choose your choice.

It does so indirectly. If I tell you: Choose between A or B, but you cannot choose B. Do you have free will? No. That's exactly what happens when he knows what I will do long before I even existed! He restricts my possible choices by denying my ability to change my mind (i.e. to choose A instead of B).

quote:You make that demand in almost every argument. It's funny.

Anyway, He knew you would choose A, because you chose it. Not the other way around.

The fact that you chose A gives Him the knowledge of your choice, and since time does not apply to Him, He knew it long before you made it, because He existed in His all-knowing state before you existed, while you exist, and after you are gone.



What's funny is that you evade it in every argument.

I didn't choose anything since I wasn't even born yet! He knew what I supposedly was going to choose before I was even born, thus limiting my choices, and thus denying me from changing my mind. That isn't free will.

Again, how can I choose B, when he knew I would choose A before I was even born? I MUST be able to choose B when comfronted with the choice, since if I cannot then I ]don't have free will.



quote:How He could know everything you choose in your lifetime makes that statement relevant, since it is a part of the explanation. If He didn't know what you chose in your past, present, or future, this explanation simply wouldn't work.

You still don't get it! If he is omniscient, which WE'RE ASSUMING HE IS, then he must know EVERYTHING regardless of the time reference. Regardless of whether he is in the past, present or future, he must know everything. Thus this is not being discussed (since we already assumed it for the sake of debate) and therefore it is irrelevant!

What IS relevant is whether that knowledge precludes free will, which it does (unless one argues that he can do away with logic).



quote:

Last time I checked, my logic tank was on full. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I also didn't realize that the "majority rules" theory was correct !

When all of Nazi Germany launched an offensive against the Jews, were they right ? They were mostly all in agreement, so...therefore, they are villified. The Jews ought to give their retribution money back ! Justice is served.

It is simply lacking in logic to say that because I hold a minority view, I am illogical.

And yes...I know you're waiting. I am waiting for motivation. *smiles*

You said that you "can't see how I can't understand this". I pointed out that I'm not alone... YOU are. Everyone here except you and Napoleon, agrees with me.

Moreover, logic IS dependant on the majority. It is a self-evident piece of reasoning, which is based on our observations of reality. If everyone on Earth observes this reality to be different, except you, then you're logic has abolutely no value. If that weren't the case, then nothing would be logically incorrect, since I could say "it doesn't matter if the majority of the people don't agree with it.. blah blah blah"

As for the motivation, will it come in time? Or will the thread delete itself before you get it? I'd like to know please.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-23-2005).]

I have heard that some Christians believe in free will, and deny the omniscience of God. There is a classic children's paradox (one which you all know) that asks whether God can create a stone so heavy that even God cannot lift it. The reason that this is a paradox rather than a dilemma is that it pits God's omnipotence against his omnipotence (at least in the classical view where creation is considered an act of potency rather than virility). A small variation on the paradox yields a dilemma: can God create a random process, that is to say a creature whose behaviour is unpredictable, even by God? This pits omnipotence against omniscience, and they choose to reject omniscience and assert that God has indeed created random processes, and we are one of them.

I find that to be an entertainable idea, though I can find no scripture that supports it.

Anyone ?

You Christians still don't get omnipotence. I find it amusing that Christians, the people who worship the god, don't know his powers!

If he is omnipotent, then of course he can create a chaotic system, and predict it as well. Illogical? Yes! But an omnipotent being cannot be constrained by logic!

Like I said, there is a perfectly good explanation to how god can preserve omniscience and free will. And that is that he can do the illogical. Though this brings more troubles to Christianity.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Knowing what will happen, does not stipulate forcing what will happen.

Also, human logic cannot apply when talking about god(any god). A god, by definition, is omnipotent, therefore it is inane to bound a god, by our limitations(logical or physical).

My second post in this thread said that.

However, for the athiests in here, I don't think that is a very satisfying answer.

I can't speak for others, but it's perfectly satisfying to me.

God doing the logically impossible is a perfect transition to another paradox in Christianity.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You Christians still don't get omnipotence. I find it amusing that Christians, the people who worship the god, don't know his powers!

If he is omnipotent, then of course he can create a chaotic system, and predict it as well. Illogical? Yes! But an omnipotent being cannot be constrained by logic!

Like I said, there is a perfectly good explanation to how god can preserve omniscience and free will. And that is that he can do the illogical. Though this brings more troubles to Christianity.

what i mean is...



quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You Christians still don't get omnipotence. I find it amusing that Christians, the people who worship the god, don't know his powers!

If he is omnipotent, then of course he can create a chaotic system, and predict it as well. Illogical? Yes! But an omnipotent being cannot be constrained by logic!

Like I said, there is a perfectly good explanation to how god can preserve omniscience and free will. And that is that he can do the illogical. Though this brings more troubles to Christianity.



God's knowing what we will choose is a function of His omnipresence since He is in all places all the time. If He were not, He would not know what choices were were freely going to make. To deny that God is all knowing, even of the choices we make, is to deny His omnipresence and reduce God's nature to something more like ourselves, which would be a mistake.

This is because God's nature is that He know all things since He is everywhere all the time: the past, present, and future.

quote:Posted by Rust:

Again, wrong. His knowledge limits my choices, since I cannot choose anything other than what he says I will choose.

What ? *laughs*

His knowledge of your choice means He told you what to choose ?

How ?

quote:Not relevant because nobody is denying that he could be in the past, future, or present. What we're debating is whether or not that knowledge removes our choices and thus free will, which it does.

I didn't say it because anyone was denying it. I was pointing it out, because it is important to consider this aspect of His existence while considering the explanation I gave for why free will does not negate God's omniscience.

You have yet to explain why His knowledge removes our choice, and thus our free will.

You keep saying it, but it's just an assertion, so far.



quote:Great. You claim that I am putting constraints on him then don't show where!

Why do I need to show where you are putting time constraints on Him ?

Your statement was what prompted my response, which means that the insinuation that God is confined by time was delivered by your statement, not by my perception of it.

In other words, it's your fault that I thought that that is what you meant, since you are the one who said it.

quote:The only place were time is relevant is when he knows what I will do. Nowhere else. If he knows what I will do, before I even know of the possible choices, then I have no free will because I cannot choose B, if he "knew" I was going to choose A.

The possible choices are infinite (not really restricted to A and B, but we are using A and B to simplify here), and remain infinite, with or without God's knowledge.

HE KNEW YOU WOULD CHOOSE A BECAUSE YOU CHOSE IT.

quote:It does so indirectly. If I tell you: Choose between A or B, but you cannot choose B. Do you have free will? No.

But when does God say, "You cannot choose B." ??

I would agree with you 100% if that were true...but God doesn't tell us not to choose A or B.

We choose it, and He knew we would, therefore B is not a part of the scenario any longer, in a past tense.

quote:That's exactly what happens when he knows what I will do long before I even existed! He restricts my possible choices by denying my ability to change my mind (i.e. to choose A instead of B).

That doesn't explain anything.

His knowing what you chose does not force you to choose it. HE KNOWS BECAUSE IT WAS CHOSEN !!

He does NOT deny your ability to change your mind. As I said before, you can't switch it up on God...you are putting the egg before the chicken, here.

You can change your mind 50 times...but he knew you would do that, too.

That doesn't change the fact that what you eventually decide to choose is your choice, and He knew that.

quote:What's funny is that you evade it in every argument.

Evade ?

"To escape or avoid by cleverness or deceit."

Avoid ?

"To stay clear of; shun."

I neither avoid, nor evade.

I simply find it ridiculous for you to DEMAND that anyone do something with their argument, based on YOUR determination of it's outcome.

As though YOU are the end all, be all of any argument. As if YOUR definition of what is right or wrong is all any of your opponents have to base their arguments on !

Pffft.

Either stop giving such demands, or admit that you cannot.

(Part II to come...my whole post will not come through.)

I'm not denying neither his omnipresence nor his omniscience.

Again, as I told Digital_Savior, I am taking both his omniscience and omnipresence as true for the sake of debate. Discussing whether or not he has them is irrelevant therefore, because for the sake of the debate I'm not denying that he does!

What would then be relevant is whether or not this would mean we have no free will or not; which it would unless, again, we say that he can do the illogical.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:I didn't choose anything since I wasn't even born yet! He knew what I supposedly was going to choose before I was even born, thus limiting my choices, and thus denying me from changing my mind. That isn't free will.

You don't seem to understand that He knew every hair on your head, before you even existed. Your heart, soul, and mind were already known by Him. He knew you would come, and when it would happen.

You didn't START to exist at your conception (or birth, since you don't believe you were actually human until you were born, or at least 3 months along in gestation).

You began to exist "always". Does that make sense ?

That doesn't limit your choices, and you cannot give a viable explanation as to how it could.

quote:Again, how can I choose B, when he knew I would choose A before I was even born? I MUST be able to choose B when comfronted with the choice, since if I cannot then I ]don't have free will.

You COULD choose B. But you chose A. And He knew you chose A, because He knows everything, during all time and space. If you chose B, then He would have known you chose B. But you chose A. B was still an option to you at the time you chose A, but for whatever reason you chose A.

What you are saying is that YOUR choice of A removed the option of choosing B. Not God's knowledge...YOU.

quote:You still don't get it! If he is omniscient, which WE'RE ASSUMING HE IS, then he must know EVERYTHING regardless of the time reference. Regardless of whether he is in the past, present or future, he must know everything. Thus this is not being discussed (since we already assumed it for the sake of debate) and therefore it is irrelevant!

I don't perceive you to be taking in the whole picture.

You are taking fragments of God's character, and over-exposing them.

I bring the entirety of His character back into play, since it is important to understanding the concept of free will vs. omniscience.

quote:What IS relevant is whether that knowledge precludes free will, which it does (unless one argues that he can do away with logic).

God IS logic, therefore He cannot do away with it.

But do we fully understand that logic, using our own ?

I would venture to say that we don't.

quote:You said that you "can't see how I can't understand this". I pointed out that I'm not alone... YOU are. Everyone here except you and Napoleon, agrees with me.

I wasn't comparing you to anyone else, and don't judge your position by how many other people agree with you.

Technically, if Napoleon agrees with me, then I am not alone.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Moreover, logic IS dependant on the majority.

No, it's not. *lol*

Maybe THAT'S your problem...you think that being out of the majority loop makes you wrong.

*shakes head*

quote:It is a self-evident piece of reasoning, which is based on our observations of reality. If everyone on Earth observes this reality to be different, except you, then you're logic has abolutely no value. If that weren't the case, then nothing would be logically incorrect, since I could say "it doesn't matter if the majority of the people don't agree with it.. blah blah blah"

Self-evident to whom ? Those who hold YOUR perception of the universe ?

My perception of the universe is different, therefore what is self-evident becomes truth in a different form.

So, when everyone thought that the earth was flat, this one guy came along and said, “Nay ! The earth is ROUND !”, who do you propose was illogical, and based on what requirements ?

The reality to the entire planet at the time was that the earth was flat. Were they logical in thinking so, simply because the majority agreed with that fallacy ?

What about germs ? At one time, everyone believed that illnesses came from the “gods”. Louis Pasteur came along and said, “Illness comes from germs.” Everyone thought he was crazy…but was he ?

I must also remind you that I am NOT the only person on the planet that thinks the way I do, so it is an extreme over-exaggeration to say "if everyone thinks a certain way except YOU".

Logic is, therefore, in the eye of the beholder.

quote:As for the motivation, will it come in time? Or will the thread delete itself before you get it? I'd like to know please.

It certainly will. I am praying about it.

And what you really want to know is whether or not you can try to either nag me into replying NOW, or prove that I never will.

Nice.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Since God knows the future, do we REALLY have free will?



To answer the above question, we must first identify two Bible Facts. Namely...

1) God is omniscient

2) People have free will



#1 God is omniscient. That is, God is all-knowing.

Since God is all-knowing, He knew everything about the universe and its creatures BEFORE He even created them.

Ergo, God has always known everything you will say or do throughout your entire existence.

Psalms 139:13 & 16 - "For You created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb... Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be.

Acts 15:18 - Known to God from eternity are all His works.

#2 People have free will. That is, people can make choices.

Deuteronomy 30:19 - This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Some think that God's omniscience is incompatible with our free will. To illustrate this concept, we will use the following make-believe example...

Fred decides to place a bomb on airplane Flight 999. While Flight 999 is in the air, Fred's bomb explodes, Flight 999 crashes, and everyone aboard is killed.

Because God is omniscient, He has ALWAYS known that Fred would decide to plant the bomb.

If Fred had decided NOT to plant the bomb, then God would have been wrong. But an omniscient God CANNOT be wrong. Therefore...

Either Fred had NO choice except to plant the bomb, in which case God is a "puppeteer" -- we are God's puppets, and free will is an illusion.

Or Fred COULD have changed his mind, and decided not to plant the bomb, in which case the omniscient God does not exist.

REBUTTAL

The airport where Flight 999 originated has security cameras. These cameras make TV tapes of the surroundings of each aircraft.

After Flight 999 explodes, some FBI agents view these TV tapes. The tapes reveal Fred planting the bomb on the airplane.



At the moment that the FBI agents are viewing the tapes, it is no longer possible for Fred to change his mind about planting the bomb. This fact does NOT mean that the FBI agents are forcing Fred to plant the bomb.

In a manner of speaking, God has ALWAYS had the video tapes that the FBI agents viewed.

Thus, God's omniscience means that God knows our free will decisions BEFORE those decisions are made. It does NOT mean that God forces us to make those decisions.

God is only omniscient because he's not time or space-bound. He doesn't know your choice because he knew it beforehand, there is no beforehand for him, he knows your choice because he saw you make it AS you made it. He's both here, right now, and at the beginning of Creation at the same time.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

What ? *laughs*

His knowledge of your choice means He told you what to choose ?

How ?

He doesn't have to tell me what yo choose to LIMIT it. By "says I will choose" I mean what he supposedly knows my choice will be.

quote:I didn't say it because anyone was denying it. I was pointing it out, because it is important to consider this aspect of His existence while considering the explanation I gave for why free will does not negate God's omniscience.

You have yet to explain why His knowledge removes our choice, and thus our free will.

You keep saying it, but it's just an assertion, so far.

So you don't deny it WAS irrelevant and therefore that I was correct. Thank you. And have shown it, you just don't want to accept logic.

quote:Why do I need to show where you are putting time constraints on Him ?

Your statement was what prompted my response, which means that the insinuation that God is confined by time was delivered by your statement, not by my perception of it.

In other words, it's your fault that I thought that that is what you meant, since you are the one who said it.

Pathetic. If you do not understand my statement, then ask me. Don't jump to ignorant conclusions. That is YOUR fault, certainly not mine.

quote:The possible choices are infinite (not really restricted to A and B, but we are using A and B to simplify here), and remain infinite, with or without God's knowledge.

HE KNEW YOU WOULD CHOOSE A BECAUSE YOU CHOSE IT.

You're purposely convoluting the argument. We're speaking of a scenario where the only possible choices are A or B, a scenario which can certainly exist. Not that it matters since the moment he forced me to not choose one of the choices, he is limiting my choices and therefore pre-determining to choose the other choices. That's still predestination.

quote:But when does God say, "You cannot choose B." ??

I would agree with you 100% if that were true...but God doesn't tell us not to choose A or B.

We choose it, and He knew we would, therefore B is not a part of the scenario any longer, in a past tense.

READ. I never said he physically says it, but that he does it by limiting what I can and cannot choose. I cannot change my mind and hence it is not free will.

quote:That doesn't explain anything.

His knowing what you chose does not force you to choose it. HE KNOWS BECAUSE IT WAS CHOSEN !!

He does NOT deny your ability to change your mind. As I said before, you can't switch it up on God...you are putting the egg before the chicken, here.

You can change your mind 50 times...but he knew you would do that, too.

That doesn't change the fact that what you eventually decide to choose is your choice, and He knew that.

Wrong. He wouldn't be omniscient if he sees me changing my mind. He knows EXACTLY what will happen in the future. I CANNOT change y mind after he knows this and therefore he has limited my free will.

quote:I simply find it ridiculous for you to DEMAND that anyone do something with their argument, based on YOUR determination of it's outcome.

As though YOU are the end all, be all of any argument. As if YOUR definition of what is right or wrong is all any of your opponents have to base their arguments on !

Pffft.

Either stop giving such demands, or admit that you cannot.

You give yourself that demand when you made the claim in the first place. Don't fault me for YOU not being able to fulfill your burden.

You made the claim and for that claim to be correct, you must justify how I can change my mind the moment I'm about to choose between A or B, when he already knows I will chose B. If I cannot change my mind after he knows it, then I don't have free will.

quote:You don't seem to understand that He knew every hair on your head, before you even existed. Your heart, soul, and mind were already known by Him. He knew you would come, and when it would happen.

You didn't START to exist at your conception (or birth, since you don't believe you were actually human until you were born, or at least 3 months along in gestation).

You began to exist "always". Does that make sense ?

That doesn't limit your choices, and you cannot give a viable explanation as to how it could.

Sorry, but I most be conscious of the problem at hand in order to know what the choices will be. If he knows what I will choose before I am even conscious of the choices, then he has already limited what I will choose.

quote:You COULD choose B. But you chose A. And He knew you chose A, because He knows everything, during all time and space. If you chose B, then He would have known you chose B. But you chose A. B was still an option to you at the time you chose A, but for whatever reason you chose A.

What you are saying is that YOUR choice of A removed the option of choosing B. Not God's knowledge...YOU.

No, I could not. I cannot choose B after he says that I will choose B.

quote:I don't perceive you to be taking in the whole picture.

You are taking fragments of God's character, and over-exposing them.

I bring the entirety of His character back into play, since it is important to understanding the concept of free will vs. omniscience.

The point being it is irrelevant because it wasn't being discussed.

quote:God IS logic, therefore He cannot do away with it.

But do we fully understand that logic, using our own ?

I would venture to say that we don't.

God most certainly is not logic, since logic is arbitrary and moreover it refutes his existence.

quote:I wasn't comparing you to anyone else, and don't judge your position by how many other people agree with you.

Technically, if Napoleon agrees with me, then I am not alone.

Regardless, I'm pointing out how supposedly "not understanding this" is VERY common; which should serve as evidence that YOU have problems, not us.

quote:No, it's not. *lol*

Maybe THAT'S your problem...you think that being out of the majority loop makes you wrong.

*shakes head*

You have no fucking clue what it entails, so please don't talk about what my "problem" is. It IS entirely dependent on our perception of reality,

quote:Self-evident to whom ? Those who hold YOUR perception of the universe ?

My perception of the universe is different, therefore what is self-evident becomes truth in a different form.

So, when everyone thought that the earth was flat, this one guy came along and said, “Nay ! The earth is ROUND !”, who do you propose was illogical, and based on what requirements ?

The reality to the entire planet at the time was that the earth was flat. Were they logical in thinking so, simply because the majority agreed with that fallacy ?

What about germs ? At one time, everyone believed that illnesses came from the “gods”. Louis Pasteur came along and said, “Illness comes from germs.” Everyone thought he was crazy…but was he ?

I must also remind you that I am NOT the only person on the planet that thinks the way I do, so it is an extreme over-exaggeration to say "if everyone thinks a certain way except YOU".

Logic is, therefore, in the eye of the beholder.

Denying heliocentrism is not about "logic". You really don't know what you're talking about.

Like I said. It is self-evident, yes, but it truthfulness completely depends on what the majority believes. Your own examples refutes you if we take it as correct. Those who believed the earth was the center of the universe were correct, because they were the majority!

quote:It certainly will. I am praying about it.

And what you really want to know is whether or not you can try to either nag me into replying NOW, or prove that I never will.

Nice.

What I really want to know is whether or not you're going to leave, not reply, wait for the thread to die off and then come back with the same bullshit. If you reply soon, that's I nice bonus, I don't deny that, but that's not my main concern.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

God is only omniscient because he's not time or space-bound. He doesn't know your choice because he knew it beforehand, there is no beforehand for him, he knows your choice because he saw you make it AS you made it. He's both here, right now, and at the beginning of Creation at the same time.

Again, this refutes nothing.

God MUST know it BEFORE I made it. Period. Regardless if he is omnipresent or not, he MUST know it before I make it. That's exactly what limits my choices.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

God is only omniscient because he's not time or space-bound. He doesn't know your choice because he knew it beforehand, there is no beforehand for him, he knows your choice because he saw you make it AS you made it. He's both here, right now, and at the beginning of Creation at the same time.

I believe I said that already, but as usual, you said it better than I did.

*lol*

THANK YOU !

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



The airport where Flight 999 originated has security cameras. These cameras make TV tapes of the surroundings of each aircraft.

After Flight 999 explodes, some FBI agents view these TV tapes. The tapes reveal Fred planting the bomb on the airplane.



At the moment that the FBI agents are viewing the tapes, it is no longer possible for Fred to change his mind about planting the bomb. This fact does NOT mean that the FBI agents are forcing Fred to plant the bomb.

In a manner of speaking, God has ALWAYS had the video tapes that the FBI agents viewed.

Thus, God's omniscience means that God knows our free will decisions BEFORE those decisions are made. It does NOT mean that God forces us to make those decisions.

Very poor rebuttal. The FBI viewing the tapes changes nothing because they do so AFTER.

If they had viewed the tapes BEFORE the act, and the tape is infallible, then it means Fred MUST plant the bomb or prove the tape to be fallible.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Again, this refutes nothing.

God MUST know it BEFORE I made it. Period. Regardless if he is omnipresent or not, he MUST know it before I make it. That's exactly what limits my choices.

God is before, during, and after.

He must be, in order to be omniscient.

He cannot be anything else.

Therefore, He is not before your choice, He is during your choice, everytime.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

God is before, during, and after.

He must be, in order to be omniscient.

He cannot be anything else.

Therefore, He is not before your choice, He is during your choice, everytime.

You STILL don't get it.

Okay. He is past, present and future. Let's view him as three instances of the same god (i.e. similar to the trinity) just to make it easy. Instances A, B and C. A exists in the past. B in the present. C in the future.

A, B, and C, must share the EXACT same knowledge in order to be omniscient. Thus A, existing in the PAST must know what my choice will be, and will preclude my free-will!

You just helped my case. Thank you.

There is no "must" in this situation. You will freely choose.

God, by being correct in knowing what you will do does not make it a "must".

You still choose it, BUT he knows it.

That is where the debate hinges, and that little hinge is why I try to avoid this debate as much as possible.

No. There IS a "must" since I MUST choose A, since if I choose B, and he claimed I was going to choose A, then I refuted his omniscience (i.e. he didn't know I was going to really choose B).

So there in lies the argument! We did a full circle. Again, either I have no free will, or he is not omniscient.

He gives you free will by not CLAIMING you were going to choose A.

If He did, He would screw you and free will up.

He doesn't have to claim it, that's a manner of speaking. What creates the "must" is not the claim, but his supposed knowledge!

If he knows that I will choose A, then I cannot change my mind, I cannot choose B, since if I did I would refute his omniscience.

A decision is a choice about something that you want to do or believe. It is drawing a conclusion while considering the options.

Your statement that you are going to make the decision means that you admit that you are the one making the choice .

By definition then, you are freely choosing to do something. Therefore, to later say that you have no choice in what you ar doing is a contradiction of your statement here .

It's not a contradiction, since I never chose anything! If god existed before I existedn, then he knew I was going to choose A, before I knew I was going to choose A, before I even know A and B existed! How is that a choice? When even before I existed, my possible choices in the future are predetermined by a god who supposedly knows what I will choose? That isn't a choice.

Furthermore, the idea of "free will" must include the possibility of changing my mind. If you say, "well he knew you changed your mind from B to A", that still means I cannot change my mind from A to B this time! If he knew that, then I can't change my mind from B to A, etc. He will always preclude my free-will.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-23-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Again, this refutes nothing.

God MUST know it BEFORE I made it. Period. Regardless if he is omnipresent or not, he MUST know it before I make it. That's exactly what limits my choices.

But the point is there is no BEFORE for him. Before is the key, because it places the whole situation in a time-bound setting, which is utterly irrelevent to a being not bound by time.

You could choose between ABABABABABABABABA all day yet you would come to a final decision which is yours and yours alone.

God knows what your choice is, he does not get involved, he WATCHES.

Just because "someone" has seen your choice does not meen he makes it for you.

Nice try but now you're going back in circles.

I've already replied to that reasoning, don't go in circles again.

I never claimed he "makes it for me". I claimed he forces me indirectly to it. He does force me indirectly, because he removes the possibles choices I have, and the times I can change my mind.

Exactly Sephiroth

This idea of God's knowledge and peoples' freedom is ultimately an unanswerable issue since it involves us working in time and God is outside of time.

Our question deals with a situation from a perspective inside of time where God is outside of time. By default, our questions and answers concerning this issue cannot be complete. Past, present, and future are concepts and realities created for us, not God.

He does not remove them, you choose, he knows.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

But the point is there is no BEFORE for him. Before is the key, because it places the whole situation in a time-bound setting, which is utterly irrelevent to a being not bound by time.

Your error is that "before" refers to a time frame relative to me.

Consider this line:

---------------------------------------------



Imagine it stretches out to infinity, on both directions.

That's how god exists. Everywhere and at everytime. Past, present, and future.

----------------------X-----------------------

<- Creation________Present_____________Future->

I am the X in the line. That's when I come to exist. If he exists, at everytime, then he not only exists at a time after I came to exist and at the same time I came to exist, but also BEFORE! Before the X!, Thus the mere fact that he exists BEFORE me, automatically precludes my free will, since he must know exactly what he knows in the future or the present, if not he wouldn't be omniscient.

This isn't even a choice Sephiroth. He MUST exist before me, since if he didn't, he wouldn't know what it is to exist before me, and therefore he would not be omniscient, which we are assuming he is!

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-23-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by vice:

He does not remove them, you choose, he knows.

He certainly does remove the ability for me to change my mind!

Don't make the claim again, because you're repating yourself without having refute this! How doesn't he limit the times I can changem y mind? Answer that or admit that you cannot.

Because in the end you will die, you cannot change that and you know.

Just like at some point you will do the things you want. But he knows before you.

Im sure that does not help and is a bit cocky. Im tired. Where has DS gone?

quote:Originally posted by vice:

Because in the end you will die, you cannot change that and you know.

Just like at some point you will do the things you want. But he knows before you.

Im sure that does not help and is a bit cocky. Im tired. Where has DS gone?

So my ability to change my mind is limited until I die. Great! That's exactly the free will we're talking about! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

You do not go to the "things" because it is in a "list" that you must fulfill. It is simply an advance/end recording of what you will do based on the choices you will freely make.

Say God went into the future and recorded what you had done. He is in the present and he knows since he is everywhere looking forward and back. (from God's future perspective looking backward)

quote:Originally posted by vice:

You do not go to the "things" because it is in a "list" that you must fulfill. It is simply an advance/end recording of what you will do based on the choices you will freely make.

Say God went into the future and recorded what you had done. He is in the present and he knows since he is everywhere looking forward and back. (from God's future perspective looking backward)

No. Now you're trying to move from him existing in the past, present and future to him existing only in the future and present http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

If he exists in the past, then his forknowledge of my actions hinders my choices. Period.

Im not saying that. I gave the example because only you live in the present. God is in the past present future. He knows your future from seeing it in the future and knowing it in the past (Of which a beginning/past does not exist for him.

Then if he knows it in the past the argument still stands! So what is your point? You have none.

Like I said from the very beginning, he existing in the present, past and future is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is whether he existed at one point, ANY point in time, before I existed. Which he did. So the point stands.

Yes he is in the past. But like I said before, you need to consider that the natures of God interacting with free will is that of omnipresence and omniscience to do the job.

This is what I believe:

God is everywhere. past present and future.

God can be within the future, knowing what you have done, to his existence before you ever knew (your past/the earth existeded)as well as knowing what more you will do once you do it. :0

Nothing you said refutes what I said!

If god existed, at ANY point in the past (and by past please read, "before I existed") then, since he is omniscient, he knows EVERYTHING. He doesn't have to go to the future, or be omnipresent. HE ALREADY KNOWS EVERYTHING!

So once again, the moment he exists in the past, before I exist, which he must, then he limits my choices.

past

(He Knows from future)

present

(He knows/You doing/choosing)

futute

(he knows/you do it/ He sees you)

So he is in the past but knows from the future? So what? What the hell does that have to do with anything? He would have to know EXACTLY THE SAME THING since he is OMNISCIENT!

^he is everywhere at once, i thought you knew that. He does not move/fly/swim/transport from future to past. HE HAS NO PAST. you do and he has seen it in ther future.

if you already do it in the future why you so concerned that he knows it in the past.

You still don't get it. I'm not going to explain it again.

Forget about how the fuck he knows what he knows. It's IRRELEVANT. Concentrate on the facts that:

1. HE MUST KNOW EVERYTHING, NO MATTER WHEN OR WHERE.

2. HE EXISTED BEFORE I DID.

Combine the two and you have a being that knows what I will do (whether he saw the future, whether he went to the future and saw me, whether he has a magic 8-ball that tells him... IT DOESN'T MATTER) and since he knows what I will do, and knows it before I even existed, then he limits my choice.

---

Why doesn't it matter? Well because regardless of whether he went to the future and saw me, that still means I cannot change my mind! How he knows what I will do is irrelevant, is not important.

This is cleary seen when we consider him to be omniscient which means he knows EVERYTHING! There would be no need to go to the future to see me! What would he accomplish? To learn something he must already know in the first place since he is omniscient?



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-23-2005).]

*sigh*

It's interesting how noone is trying to refute my original argument...i'm beginning to think that it is sound http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)...

quote:

(1)If God is omniscient it knows what it will choose to do in the future.

(2)If God's knows what it will choose to do in the future it can not have freewill.

(3)If God does not have freewill he can not be omnipotent.

Therefore:

(5)God, as defined, can not exist.



This is about God's freewill, not ours.

-As a side note to those arguing about God existing outside of time, think about what you are saying...time is merely a measure of delta, if God exists outside time then it can have no delta and therefore doesn't change. If God doesn't change it is static and therefore as good as non-existant.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

*sigh*

It's interesting how noone is trying to refute my original argument...i'm beginning to think that it is sound http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)...

This is about God's freewill, not ours.

-As a side note to those arguing about God existing outside of time, think about what you are saying...time is merely a measure of delta, if God exists outside time then it can have no delta and therefore doesn't change. If God doesn't change it is static and therefore as good as non-existant.



You're right. Even in God's Word, He describes Himself as 1)everlasting 2)unchanging

This does not mean that God is static (because He is outside of time), it means He is static from our limited perspective. We cant even picture 'outside of time', let alone what it would be like 'outside of time'.

I dont think that there is a way to know if God has freewill or not (aside from Him showing us), but the fact that we are not outside of time (and really can not comprehend what that would be like), makes it impossible to apply "time standards" to "outside of time". So how can we know if God has choice or not? We understand 'choice' because we are 'inside of time'.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Definitions:

God - Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing) and Omnibenevolent (all loving).

Freewill - A choice is not decided until the instant the choser decides and if the choser were to rewind time and have the exact same events lead up to the exact same choice they could choose differently.

Argument:

(1)If God is omniscient it knows what it will choose to do in the future.

(2)If God's knows what it will choose to do in the future it can not have freewill.

(3)If God does not have freewill he can not be omnipotent.

Therefore:

(5)God, as defined, can not exist.

My argument is open to debate.

Because God lives outside the the 'timeline'.

There is NO before for him.

Free will is only apperant in the timeline.

God does not have any free will to change/make/affect on His part because it is not a concept for himself.

There is the timeline. He created it, He is out side it. In this 'place', nothing can change, God has no free will.

------------------------------------------

Rust, I think said around the lines that:

God does NOT choose our future (we choose it)He does NOT get involved.

You have obviously posted your opinions... you cannot change that, it happend. God knows what is going to "happen" again (but YOU choose it).

You do not know your future, he does, but you make it.

I have no other way of explaining unless I use hand puppets. :)

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

*sigh*

It's interesting how noone is trying to refute my original argument...i'm beginning to think that it is sound http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)...

I'm guessing that you just ignored this post then.....

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Let's say you're in line at a fast food place. You know what you're going to order when they ask you. You're absolutely positive as to what you're going to get. Now, when you get to the front of the line and the little shit behind the counter asks you what you want, you still have the choice of picking everything on the board. However, you don't and you pick what you've already decided you'll pick. You maintain all your choices even though you've already predecided on a choice.

Now, let us say that God is deciding whether or not to create earth. He has the option of not creating it or creating it. Two options. He knows that he is going to create the earth, but he still has the option not to build it. He maintains his free will even though he knows what decision he is going to make.

Free will only means that you have the possibility to make other choices, which he does. It doesn't mean you have to take them.

That applies to God also. In that he maintains his omnipotence, omniscience, and his free will. That is my last effort with you. If you can't see how that works, then you're as stubborn as the worst christians I've ever encountered.

If that explanation doesn't suffice, I just thought of an alternative one. When god culminated, he instantly knew everything. That means god had to go through and make the decisions before he was presented with them, This just means that it made the decision before it was actually presented with the decision. God knew everything, therefore it would have known all possibilities and circumstances surrounding a decision. This means that god could have very easily just made the decision before being presented with the decision in reality(poor word choice probably).

I think both of these perfectly refute your claim. Whether you choose to accept them is up to you. I actually quite like the second one.



quote:This is about God's freewill, not ours.

-As a side note to those arguing about God existing outside of time, think about what you are saying...time is merely a measure of delta, if God exists outside time then it can have no delta and therefore doesn't change. If God doesn't change it is static and therefore as good as non-existant.

Ummm......no.

It's just that God does not exist within time. He is time. He is everything. Don't try and apply physics to god, because it doesn't work.

Say there is a light. He can eigther turn it on or off. But since he is all knowing he knows he will turn it on. But what if God can use free will and choose not to turn it on?

This is not possible for three reasons.

1. If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them otherwise your knowledge would be wrong, and you wouldn't be all-knowing. An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions; all it's actions are predetermined.

contemplating an omniscient being's existence, it already knows every action it will make. In effect God is an observer. An omniscient being has no free will - it's entire future is set out and it has no choice but to follow it's predestined path. God knows your prayers before you make them, it already knows what sacrifices are going to made to him and who is devoted enough to make them. We have nothing to prove to an omniscient god, and none of our actions will "change it's mind":

It already knows what our actions will be, therefore it's mind is already set. We present no new knowledge so cannot change it's mind. Knowing it's own future, too, it can never change it's own mind so has no free will.

2.God always makes the best decisions and is perfectly good. It cannot do something that is wrong or not "good" than something else, because that would not be perfectly good

God only has one choice: The most moral/good choice.

In order to give God it's free will, we would have to take away it's omniscience - it's all-knowing nature - or take away it's benevolence.

3. God exists outside of time... where there is no free will!

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Definitions:

God - Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing) and Omnibenevolent (all loving).

Freewill - A choice is not decided until the instant the choser decides and if the choser were to rewind time and have the exact same events lead up to the exact same choice they could choose differently.

Argument:

(1)If God is omniscient it knows what it will choose to do in the future.

(2)If God's knows what it will choose to do in the future it can not have freewill.

(3)If God does not have freewill he can not be omnipotent.

Therefore:

(5)God, as defined, can not exist.

My argument is open to debate.

This is not your argument.You stole it from "Athiesm - The Case Against God" by George Smith.

quote:This is not your argument.You stole it from "Athiesm - The Case Against God" by George Smith.

I haven't read that book and i don't know that name. How can i steal from something i didn't know existed?

quote:If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them

Then is God really omnipotent?

quote:Let's say you're in line at a fast food place. You know what you're going to order when they ask you. You're absolutely positive as to what you're going to get. Now, when you get to the front of the line and the little shit behind the counter asks you what you want, you still have the choice of picking everything on the board. However, you don't and you pick what you've already decided you'll pick. You maintain all your choices even though you've already predecided on a choice.

Knowing what you like to buy at a fast food place a a lot different than omniscience...your argument from analogy i too flawed for it to be considered an objection. you are comparing me buying a meal at a fast foo place to Gods omniscience...my craving may change when i get to the counter and i might try some chicken...Gods omniscience can't change, it has to be constant for it to be omniscient.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



The airport where Flight 999 originated has security cameras. These cameras make TV tapes of the surroundings of each aircraft.

After Flight 999 explodes, some FBI agents view these TV tapes. The tapes reveal Fred planting the bomb on the airplane.



At the moment that the FBI agents are viewing the tapes, it is no longer possible for Fred to change his mind about planting the bomb. This fact does NOT mean that the FBI agents are forcing Fred to plant the bomb.



The security guards did not know for all eternity that Fred was planting the bomb on the plane. The security guards did not create Fred, the bomb, the plane, the Airport, and the security-cameras. Supposedly, God was the ONLY entity that could have granted the universe existance. He knew how all things would occur in this universe if he created it, before he created it. If he had not created the universe, nothing would have happened. God, creating the universe, with knowledge of everything that would happen within it, caused everything to happen within it by creating it.

God knew a man would eat an apple in 2007 if he allowed that man to exist, before he allowed that man to exist. He allows the man to exist, he causes the man to eat the apple in 2007.

I again must compare this to a murder performed with a gun. Specific aim being taken is compared to God's awareness of a specific thing that will happen in the universe he will create. The pulling of the trigger is compared to the act of creation of the universe. The sighted victim is compared to the human being whom God's specific awareness pretains to. The victim is unaware of the aim upon them, all humans are unaware of the path of events resultant of God's creation of the universe awaiting them in the future. Who do you blame the death upon? The victim who could not see that they were being targeted, perhaps because they did not move out of the way? Or the murderer, who consciously aimed, saw where the bullet would travel, knew what the bullet would do, and with all of this knowledge decided to pull the trigger?

I've spelled this out so many times, and still nobody will come to grips with it or even give a response that was worth the ATP it took to move their fingers; I'm getting sick of it. Napoleon would deny it, but refused to explain to me where I had faltered even when I had expressly asked him to do so; he just replied again with what I had expressed asked him not to--reiteration of his stance expressed in self-contradictory declarations, and more dull sarcasm. If you can, just convince me that I'm wrong so I don't have to worry about it any more.

[This message has been edited by Adorkable (edited 06-24-2005).]

No explanation would EVER suffice for you, because you believe in what your'e saying, just like I believe in what I'm saying. Since this discussion basically boils down to how you see a certain situation, both of us can think we're each right. Nothing I say to you could ever get you to change your mind. Just like nothing you say will change mine.

I can easily see how we can maintain choice with God's omniscience, because we still have to make the decision. The only way that one could argue that there is no free will, is if God's omniscience was known by us, which is impossible. Since a decision still has to be made, there is still free will.

I can understand where you're both coming from, but I simply disagree.

Daz, you didn't address this point:

quote:If that explanation doesn't suffice, I just thought of an alternative one. When god culminated, he instantly knew everything. That means god had to go through and make the decisions before he was presented with them, This just means that it made the decision before it was actually presented with the decision. God knew everything, therefore it would have known all possibilities and circumstances surrounding a decision. This means that god could have very easily just made the decision before being presented with the decision in reality(poor word choice probably).

Adorkable, since you asked specifically, I will answer you...tomorrow.

I need some SLEEP !

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Adorkable, since you asked specifically, I will answer you...tomorrow.

I need some SLEEP !

Nice.

quote:If that explanation doesn't suffice, I just thought of an alternative one. When god culminated, he instantly knew everything. That means god had to go through and make the decisions before he was presented with them, This just means that it made the decision before it was actually presented with the decision. God knew everything, therefore it would have known all possibilities and circumstances surrounding a decision. This means that god could have very easily just made the decision before being presented with the decision in reality(poor word choice probably).

I follow where you are coming from here, and it makes some sense. However, your assuming God at some point in time culminated. I thought he was eternal?

You never see god in the astronomy picture of the day.

Who gives a fuck. No one can proove shit.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

I follow where you are coming from here, and it makes some sense. However, your assuming God at some point in time culminated. I thought he was eternal?

You were the one talking about rewinding time and stuff.

It makes sense in how you described free will.

What?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Adorkable, since you asked specifically, I will answer you...tomorrow.

I need some SLEEP !

...?

You people talk as if "God" seems to have a personality...

yeah, god and a personality? right... if god had a personality itd be like giving a human full responsibility to make the universe happen... IMHO god is energy, in all its forms. * light

* chemical

* mechanical

* heat

* electric

* atomic

* sound

you cant destroy and you cant create energy, only change its form. that allows for humans to have freewill, it allows god to be omnipotent and the big bang theory still holds. humans are in charge of their own destiny, influenced by their environment. the best way to worship god, is to live up to your expectations of yourself and be an important part of your environment, use your masculinity/feminity and conciousness to its potential everyone has some unique ability that makes them more suited to something, play your role in harmony with the environment and society and youll live a happy life. sorry if this sounds like an autistic kid wrote it but its hard to plot my ideas about the concept of God... everyone struggles http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) peace and love homies

you could even say god is the connection between space and time?? energy?

quote:yeah, god and a personality? right... if god had a personality itd be like giving a human full responsibility to make the universe happen... IMHO god is energy, in all its forms. * light

* chemical

* mechanical

* heat

* electric

* atomic

* sound

you cant destroy and you cant create energy, only change its form. that allows for humans to have freewill, it allows god to be omnipotent and the big bang theory still holds. humans are in charge of their own destiny, influenced by their environment. the best way to worship god, is to live up to your expectations of yourself and be an important part of your environment, use your masculinity/feminity and conciousness to its potential everyone has some unique ability that makes them more suited to something, play your role in harmony with the environment and society and youll live a happy life. sorry if this sounds like an autistic kid wrote it but its hard to plot my ideas about the concept of God... everyone struggles peace and love homies



That would imply that causal closure of the universe would be theoretically possible and therefore we would still not have freewill due to causality. Got Determinism?