ok, ive been going to church ever since i can remember i dont exactly enjoy it, in fact i really hate it. But if you think about it life on earth is only like a spec of sand on a beach or a drop of water in the ocean compared to eternity..so why should you spend you life being stubborn and arguing w/ people about how god isnt real. Because when you die and "just in case" there is a god, your going to regret it. None of us can fathom what eternity is like because it never stops. The risk is too high to not believe in God. Also, this seems like cheating the system but I was told that once you "accept jesus into your heart" thats all you have to do to get into heaven. If its seriously that easy, why doesnt everyone just do it? You'd think that God would see these looppoles though so idk haha, but yeah i just thought id put in my 2 cents

Accepting Jesus isn't just as simple as is sounds. Accepting him is accepting him and everything he stands for. You can't just be like "Oh, I believe in what Jesus did, so I'm all good for heaven."

Ps, good topic, it should be archived.

I understand why people argue that God "exists"...

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why people argue that He doesn't exist, however.

Why would you spend all your time being angry at people for believing in something you personally feel does not exist ?

I have never been angry at a Buddhist.

I have never been angry at a Hindu.

I do debate with them about the existence of God, because I believe He does exist.

But an atheist believes in "nothing", so what is there to argue about ?

It sounds to me as if they are trying more to convince THEMSELVES that He doesn't exist, so that they can feel better about not believing, more than anything else.

Or perhaps they are just trying to convert as many people to atheism as possible, so that they don't feel like a minority (which they are).

Either way, it seems pretty useless, since the implication of what they believe is that it all doesn't really matter once you die, anyway. It's death, and it's final, and there is nothing else.

*shrugs*

quote:Originally posted by Weezer87:

Because when you die and "just in case" there is a god, your going to regret it. None of us can fathom what eternity is like because it never stops. The risk is too high to not believe in God.

Pascel's Wager only works if you pick the right religion or if God is not particular about how you worship him. If your religion is wrong you better hope for oblivion or that God will forgive you for being led astray.

Every time I step onto my front porch I see proof of the power of my god.Plants producing energy from sunlight,our so called scientists will never figure that one out,while purifying the air we all breathe.I could go on forever...my point short and sweet is this.Something,somewhere had to make all this shit around us happen.Shit water boiling is one of the simplest things in the world,it happens everywhere,all the time.But just look at the myriad of variables that can affect how it happens and at what temps!This ain't no fuckin accident.It all works too good.

I worship whoever created this masterpiece around us.And hope to hell they forgive my sins.Thats where the faith comes in.

quote:Originally posted by mozark44:

Every time I step onto my front porch I see proof of the power of my god.Plants producing energy from sunlight,our so called scientists will never figure that one out

Holy shit. Are you serious? Look up PHOTOSYNTHESIS. God damn just when I thought Totse couldn't get any stupider.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I understand why people argue that God "exists"...

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why people argue that He doesn't exist, however.

Why would you spend all your time being angry at people for believing in something you personally feel does not exist ?

I have never been angry at a Buddhist.

I have never been angry at a Hindu.

I do debate with them about the existence of God, because I believe He does exist.

But an atheist believes in "nothing", so what is there to argue about ?

It sounds to me as if they are trying more to convince THEMSELVES that He doesn't exist, so that they can feel better about not believing, more than anything else.

Or perhaps they are just trying to convert as many people to atheism as possible, so that they don't feel like a minority (which they are).

Either way, it seems pretty useless, since the implication of what they believe is that it all doesn't really matter once you die, anyway. It's death, and it's final, and there is nothing else.

*shrugs*

Ive never been angry at any christian, or muslim, hindu, jehova's wittness or jew. what has anger got to do with anything. the thing you dont see with most eathiests (the non stupid ignorant ones) is that most just see how unlikely the entire christian/muslim/hindu/jewish system of belief is. You have it easy. you were either born into a christian family or converted at a young age or during some phase of depression. You fail to realise that there are millions of people not in your predicament. look at it from their point of view...

the bible is a book, written by people. as long as it is written by people it seems highly unlikely that it is the word of God.

Jesus was a jew, so why isnt everyone believing in jesus a jew?

Appearently the world is 6000 odd years old. what about the 65 million year old fossils? (see T Bags post)

Does heaven get over-crowded with 6000 years worth of people? Why is it that all the christian kids who beat me up and stole my money in school get to go to heaven and are fogiven where as i am cast away to hell for simply not knowing any better? How can all christians go to heaven when there are so many different sects with so many different beliefs? Who do we listen to? the catholics? do we or do we not go to hell for using condoms? how do we know you're right ad not the pope? he claims to be gods reprisentative on earth right? but then again so does the queen! With all these complications, unless you live in a christian community, however small, you tend to ask all these questions. See it from our side.

dont just assume that we are all evil malicious people intent on convincing ourselves and others we are right. when we argue about god we want answers. "just belive" is not an answer unless your born believing it. dont get me wrong. if god showed up in front of me id convert, no questions asked. but he hasnt. and before i convert we'll all need better answers to these questions than "read the bible" which is about as credible to us as is the koran and the bugghavagitha.

If god we'll send us to hell for this so be it. then he is evil and we'd all rather stay with our heads held high than be seduced by the god who sends only those who believe without question to heaven.

The only way to know what is real is after you die, unless you have some hallucination or other such remarkable event which tells you what the meaning of life is (those hallucinations then make you the leading authority on life's meaning and entitle you to start a religion in which everyone gives you a lot of money to commune with your hallucination and be the hallucination's spokesperson regarding all matters on life, etc. Shucks, that sounds like most organized religion). Now to get to my point. If there is/are no god/s, no afterlife, just nothing after you die, then would it hurt you to believe in (a) god/s while you live. No, you would die and you would have gained nothing. However, if there is/are (a) god/s and you believe in them, then when you die they'll reward you and you'll be happy, but if you don't believe in them you'll be punished. The next question that follows is which god is the correct one to believe in? My opinion is to believe in all of them unless you have a personal experience which justifies the existence of one god to the point of exclusion of the possibility of all other gods. Makes sense?

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

Pascel's Wager only works if you pick the right religion or if God is not particular about how you worship him. If your religion is wrong you better hope for oblivion or that God will forgive you for being led astray.



What's Pascel's Wager?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Why would you spend all your time being angry at people for believing in something you personally feel does not exist ?

Because those idiot people like yourself are so fucking arrogant, they try to shove their idiotic beliefs down everyone's throat. And the people who are MORE intelligent than monkeys and debunk such idiot beliefs, you call ignorant. I sentence you to death, but seen as how that's out of the option, I sentence you to kiss my ass instead.

Lousy fucking cocksucking faggots.

digital saviour i think you went a bit too far. before making slightly absurd generalizations like "aethists are a minority trying to convince themselves that they're not" you owe it to them to see their point of view. you cant realy afford to make judgements on us just because we question everything. read my post. once you answer all those questions and the many others which people will doubtless add to the list, you can afford to scorn us. Until then you are just as stupid/ignorant/self-reflecting as we are. sound fair?

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:



What's Pascel's Wager?

Sory Pascal's Wager.

http://tinyurl.com/7engo

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I understand why people argue that God "exists"...

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why people argue that He doesn't exist, however.

Why would you spend all your time being angry at people for believing in something you personally feel does not exist ?

I have never been angry at a Buddhist.

I have never been angry at a Hindu.

I do debate with them about the existence of God, because I believe He does exist.

But an atheist believes in "nothing", so what is there to argue about ?

It sounds to me as if they are trying more to convince THEMSELVES that He doesn't exist, so that they can feel better about not believing, more than anything else.

Or perhaps they are just trying to convert as many people to atheism as possible, so that they don't feel like a minority (which they are).



Right. Atheists must be convincing themselves! There is no other logical explanation! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

The explanation is clear as day if you don't see it your blind.

If Christian beliefs didn't affect education, healthcare, the justice system, morality, science, research, exploration, logic, etc. I frankly wouldn't give a shit, and would think other atheists wouldn't either.

But sadly, they do. That's the problem.

Weezer:

"Because when you die and 'just in case' there is a god, your going to regret it"

Accepting God solely on the basis that he may exist, and therefore I may regret denying him, isn't exactly a convincing argument.

Pascal's Wager is nothing more than a fear-based recruitment tool. Just another way of saying, "You could go to Hell... you don't want that do you?"

"The risk is too high to not believe in God."

I'd rather risk eternity in Hell than willingly abandon everything that I believe in, everything that makes me who I am.

First of, you can either believe that the Jesus of the bible died for our sins or not.

The rules are you can’t be sinful.

That’s all you need to do



Now, to answer your opinions Sarith.

Jesus said he would be “with” those who wrote the new testament.

We are not Jews because God told us the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. Jews DO NOT believe that. That’s why we are CHRISTians. Jesus does not need to be saved.

You cannot Carbon date fossil; it’s only relative to the strata. Yet Creationists tend to believe that these layers do not show the history at that time.

No, heaven is not crowded.

Those kids will not go to heaven unless they truly repent.

The doctrine in the Bible does not contradict. The different denominations of Christianity is of people and there own beliefs of interpretation.

Listen to the options then read the Bible.

If the Pope changes doctrine he is not right.

God knows who is bad and good yet still allows us to live. That is free will. If you say that it is wrong for God to allow someone to be born who will go to hell, then would he rather have God remove our freedom to rebel against Him so that no one can be blamed for sin? God does not only make good people other wise Jesus would not be crucified. If you say you only want those people born to go heaven, then how are they truly free and how would that fulfill the ultimate plan of God to sacrifice His Son for the redemption of mankind?

God is just and always does what is right.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It sounds to me as if they are trying more to convince THEMSELVES that He doesn't exist, so that they can feel better about not believing, more than anything else.

Peer pressure will do that to people. You will notice that people in the minority, e.g. religious extremists, do the same thing.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Or perhaps they are just trying to convert as many people to atheism as possible, so that they don't feel like a minority (which they are).

Absolutely. I wouldn't think about gods at all if all the people I met were athiests. There aren't enough athiests! Especially not in the US, which is disturbing considering they are the world's foremost superpower.

I won't rest until there is an athiest President in the White House.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Either way, it seems pretty useless, since the implication of what they believe is that it all doesn't really matter once you die, anyway. It's death, and it's final, and there is nothing else.

*shrugs*

For a non-athiest you sure hit the nail on the head. Live while you can 'cause you only get one shot.

Useless? Maybe if you only care about your own livelihood. If you need a purpose then live to make others' and future others' short stay in life better.

Good Christians already do this, of course, but athiests can be even better people than religious folk because they aren't held back by misinformation and useless rituals. It is important to realize athiesm does not mean giving up. Athiesm is simply ascribing the purpose you give yourself to yourself, rather than to an invisible entity.

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

Holy shit. Are you serious? Look up PHOTOSYNTHESIS. God damn just when I thought Totse couldn't get any stupider.

Yup...good ol' chaos figured out a way for plants to feed themselves, as part of the big circle of life.

Amazing.

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

Ive never been angry at any christian, or muslim, hindu, jehova's wittness or jew.

That post wasn't for you specifically.

If it doesn't apply to you, try not to bear the burden of defending the atheists.

quote:what has anger got to do with anything.

I dunno.

I have never seen such hatred as I have here on MGCBTSOOYG.

I have never been so maliciously attacked in my life.

Apparently, you have missed the past year and a half in which that all occured.

quote:the thing you dont see with most eathiests (the non stupid ignorant ones)

Oh, please tell me where I can find one ?!!

I will be rich...just like the guy that finds Big Foot !

*lol*

Just kiddin, guys...don't stone me or anything.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:t just see how unlikely the entire christian/muslim/hindu/jewish system of belief is. You have it easy. you were either born into a christian family or converted at a young age or during some phase of depression.

Oh ?

I'm just one of the lucky dumb sheep, eh ?

Would you care to know how I actually came to Christ ? (a harrowing story of meth abuse, sexual abuse, abandonment, child loss, satanism, atheism...just to name a few)

You don't know a thing about me, so please don't presume to know how "easy" I have had it.

God did not come easily for me.

quote:you fail to realise that there are millions of people not in your predicament. look at it from their point of view...

I don't get a special predicament all my own. I would venture to say that I have had ten times the hellish predicament any of YOU have had...but I'm speculating.

Look at it from my point of view.

I had to go to Hell and back to give a crap about PEOPLE, let alone people who hate me, and my faith in God.

I come here, day in and day out, and try to spread the truth as I know it. I don't want one person to go to Hell because I didn't do my job and tell them what this existence is all about.

Try and see it from MY perspective, instead of generalizing.

quote:the bible is a book,

TRUE !

quote:written by people. as long as it is written by people it seems highly unlikely that it is the word of God.

God used men to write His will down.

They were inspired, and were not themselves. They couldn't have done it without the prompting of the Holy Spirit, and if you read it, you will see that.

quote:Jesus was a jew, so why isnt everyone believing in jesus a jew?

I have no idea what you are driving at there.

I know he was a Jew. I still believe he was the son of God.

quote:Appearently the world is 6000 odd years old.

It is actually between 10,000 and 12,000.

quote:what about the 65 million year old fossils? (see T Bags post)

I have responded to that assertion sufficiently. Please look for my response.

quote:Does heaven get over-crowded with 6000 years worth of people?

Heaven is not a "space".

It is borderless.

God made provisions for His people...ALL of them. (by His people I am referring to those that believed in Him, and stand next to Him in heaven)

quote:Why is it that all the christian kids who beat me up and stole my money in school get to go to heaven and are fogiven where as i am cast away to hell for simply not knowing any better?

First of all, how do you know they were Christian ?

The sure sign of a Christian is the "fruit of their labor". If they are being bad people, chances are, they are not Christian.

You must also remember, though, that Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.

This same privilege is offered to you...and to anyone else who would accept God as their eternal Father.

Also, just saying you are a Christian doesn't make you one.

You MUST walk the walk.

quote:How can all christians go to heaven when there are so many different sects with so many different beliefs?

Religion separates people, and serves no purpose. It is man-made, not God-made.

All you are required to do is believe in Him. THAT'S IT.

Love your God, and your neighbor.

That's all God asks of you.

quote:Who do we listen to? the catholics?

I hope not.

They don't focus NEARLY enough on God, in my opinion.

quote:do we or do we not go to hell for using condoms?

There is no provision for such things in the Bible.

There are verses that, when taken out of context, can be manipulated by the Powers That Be (heads of ANY church, not just Catholic) to say anything they want, in order to control people.

If you study scripture on your own, the truth will be revealed to you.

In general, if something someone is saying to you doesn't seem right, it probably isn't.

quote:how do we know you're right ad not the pope?

As doctrinally bizarre as the Catholic Church can be at times, they believe Christ was the Messiah. They are going to heaven, just as I am.

quote:he claims to be gods reprisentative on earth right?

He is full of pride, and masks it with fake humility.

I would never DARE say I was the "vicar" of God, in any way shape or form.

For this transgression, they will reap retribution from the God.

I can say nothing more on the subject. That is between them and God.

quote:but then again so does the queen! With all these complications, unless you live in a christian community, however small, you tend to ask all these questions. See it from our side.

I have, and I do.

I don't know why you think I exist in this perfect little Christian bubble, but I live in this hellish world, too.

I suffer, and see people suffer around me daily.

I am not exempt from this life, because of my beliefs.

I just have something to look forward to at the end of it, and help in getting through it until it does end.

quote:dont just assume that we are all evil malicious people intent on convincing ourselves and others we are right.

Again, that post wasn't directed solely at you. It was for anyone that could identify it.

I have a lot of friends that are atheist.

Hell, my husband was a pagan when I met him !

I don't have a vendetta..for the people on Totse, I may be a bit biased, because I have been treated very poorly on this site. When I first came, I was nice and demure, and I was attacked, harassed, and flamed.

I learned very quickly that I had to be a bit tougher than that...

quote:when we argue about god we want answers.

Maybe that's what YOU want...

Most want to feel power...they want to feel villified in their beliefs, by trying to make someone who believes differently than they do feel stupid and weak.

If that's not you, don't take my post personally.

I am happy to give answers to those that seek it without cruel intentions.

You can AIM me, if you want. My screen name is desired hush.

quote:"just belive" is not an answer unless your born believing it. dont get me wrong. if god showed up in front of me id convert, no questions asked. but he hasnt. and before i convert we'll all need better answers to these questions than "read the bible" which is about as credible to us as is the koran and the bugghavagitha.

I have never told someone to just believe in God.

I never would.

From my own personal experience I know that it takes much more than that...

But most people haven't even cracked open a Bible, yet they can sit smugly on the sidelines heckling those that see it for it's value.

How can you discredit something you know nothing about ?

quote:If god we'll send us to hell for this so be it. then he is evil and we'd all rather stay with our heads held high than be seduced by the god who sends only those who believe without question to heaven.

God doesn't SEND anyone to Hell. He gives every man a chance to believe in Him. He doesn't force you...He waits on you.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that Christians don't question God, but I suggest you start tuning in to a Christian radio station. People call in incessantly with the same questions atheists have, and they are already believers !!

We have questions, believe me !

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 06-25-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

digital saviour i think you went a bit too far. before making slightly absurd generalizations like "aethists are a minority trying to convince themselves that they're not" you owe it to them to see their point of view. you cant realy afford to make judgements on us just because we question everything. read my post. once you answer all those questions and the many others which people will doubtless add to the list, you can afford to scorn us. Until then you are just as stupid/ignorant/self-reflecting as we are. sound fair?

I have answered all of those questions countless times since I began my quest on Totse.

Just because you are here NOW doesn't mean I haven't in the past.

What do I owe these people that I have not already given ?

Well! you came up with a big word!Good for you jonny!Maybe we can find you a shiney star sticker for your effort!Look.Neither you nor any one else can make photosynthysis happen.Besides planting something.If you could, everything that uses energy would be green and would make our air better.I will wager your one of those piss ants that whine about global warming.Well,my god not only controls earthquakes and volcanos,my god invented them.If the earth gets too warm fear not my friend,for my god will pop off a Mt.Pinatubo in the Phillipines and cool shit off.If not there,Maybe Mt ST Helens again.There are infinate recources for my god to draw upon,Who knows where the next flood will be?My god is the creator of mother nature.And she isn't one to be fucked with.So thats where I get my faith.You just gotta go with the flow.

[This message has been edited by mozark44 (edited 06-25-2005).]

And I really hate to say this, but I advise you not to put too much stock in anything Vice has to say...

I don't know him/her very well, but it is blaringly obvious that he/she is a "baby" Christian.

I am not trying to be insulting...nothing he/she has said is Biblically sound, that's all.

I am sorry I had to say that.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Not biblically sound eh?

quote:Originally posted by vice:

First of, you can either believe that the Jesus of the bible died for our sins or not.

Well the choices have been appaarent in this forum.

quote:The rules are you can’t be sinful.[/B]

Romans 6:1-2

quote:That’s all you need to do[/B]

And yes I know there is only one way to God. Good works should be the result of faith.

quote:Jesus said he would be “with” those who wrote the new testament.[/B]

2 Peter 2:21.

Matthew 28:19-20 - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

quote:We are not Jews because God told us the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. Jews DO NOT believe that. That’s why we are CHRISTians.[/B]

The Jews sort to kill Jesus and then this happened - Mark 15:25.

quote:Jesus does not need to be saved.[/B]

1 peter 2:22

You cannot Carbon date fossil; it’s only relative to the strata. Yet Creationists tend to believe that these layers do not show the history at that time.

http://tinyurl.com/bgfzo

quote:No, heaven is not crowded.[/B]

Well you agreed.

quote:The doctrine in the Bible does not contradict. The different denominations of Christianity is of people and there own beliefs of interpretation.[/B]

I think you agreed in your last post

quote:Listen to the options then read the Bible.[/B]

Acts 17:11

quote:If the Pope changes doctrine he is not right.[/B]

Matthew 24:35

Do you agree?

quote:God knows who is bad and good yet still allows us to live. That is free will. If you say that it is wrong for God to allow someone to be born who will go to hell, then would he rather have God remove our freedom to rebel against Him so that no one can be blamed for sin? God does not only make good people other wise Jesus would not be crucified. If you say you only want those people born to go heaven, then how are they truly free and how would that fulfill the ultimate plan of God to sacrifice His Son for the redemption of mankind?

God is just and always does what is right.[/B]

John 3:16

Do you Agree?

I do think I am a "baby" at all this. Since I found Totse I have learnt ALOT (with some thanks to you). Im new to christianity (around 6 months)

So what if you don't know me very well? I'm entitled to my opinion, I don't think you should tell people to not take too much notice of me. Then again those are your opinions.

[This message has been edited by vice (edited 06-25-2005).]

digitalsaviour...

thats actually pretty cool... i never met someone who i could ask questions without getting flamed. you got no idea how many churches/temples/mosques i been kicked out of http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

d'you have an e mail address i can get you at cause i got a load of questions which would realy take a long time to get through on a forum like this.

sarith@thatbrat.com

Digital Savior, you seem like a pretty cool chick, I've grown being a "Christian" my entire life, while I still don't swallow CHristianity, I think the way you're presenting it is good. It's very good.

Yet, I have to point out a pretty pretty problem in your answers, one that has made me laugh countless times at Christianity and the Christian concept of Heaven. It has to do with this:

Heaven is not a "space".

It is borderless.

Due to my possibly fortunate, possibly unfortunate Christian upbringing, I know the Bible rather well, and in Revelations chapter something it states that the Heavenly City will be 1500 miles high and 1500 miles wide.

Now, if God is such a merciful God who loves people so much, he won't go and throw everybody who has sinned into raging Hell for eternity because of some sin, because God is love. Nobody is perfect. Everyone has committed sin. Not everyone around the world at every point of the world has heard of god or jesus. Not everyone in the world has had an accurate presentation of Jesus, alot of people in the world just think that Jesus was a cool guy, if they've even heard of him. Is God gonna roast all those billions of souls in Hell for eternity? I think not. That would not be loving. He'd have to take them to Heaven as the alternative, how are you gonna fit billions and billions of resurrected BODIES in a space 1500 miles high and 1500 miles wide?

See my point? I don't want to undermine your faith..no actually I do, just because. I stil admire you. You got balls to stand up on these forums and shoot down alot of stupidity that goes on. Bravo.

Two questions: Are you with any church or anything like that? How old are you?

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

Digital Savior, you seem like a pretty cool chick, I've grown being a "Christian" my entire life, while I still don't swallow CHristianity, I think the way you're presenting it is good. It's very good.

Praise be to God ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I thank you humbly, and turn all that may have been accomplished over to God.

quote:Yet, I have to point out a pretty petty problem in your answers, one that has made me laugh countless times at Christianity and the Christian concept of Heaven. It has to do with this..

No, you're totally right. No need to comment further.

I was actually thinking about it when I posted it, and upon deeper reflection it occured to me that I had in fact heard a sermon on Heaven's dimensions once.

I intended to edit that post, but it was very late when I posted it, and I have been helping my landlord with yardwork all day.

Excuses, excuses...I know ! *lol*

**HEAVEN**

The Hebrew word for Heaven in the Old Testament is pronounced shaw-may.

REVELATION 21

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick, by man's measurement, which the angel was using. 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 21:16 That is, about 1,400 miles (about 2,200 kilometers)

Revelation 21:17 That is, about 200 feet (about 65 meters)

Revelation 21:17 Or high

Revelation 21:20 The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain.

On this point, I stand corrected.

quote:Now, if God is such a merciful God who loves people so much, he won't go and throw everybody who has sinned into raging Hell for eternity because of some sin, because God is love. Nobody is perfect. Everyone has committed sin.

I agree 100%.

He doesn't throw ANYONE away. He loves His creation, but those that reject Him lose the privilege of standing beside Him for eternity in Heaven.

It's up to them.

quote:Not everyone around the world at every point of the world has heard of god or jesus.

Romans 1:18-21 - "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

It seems apparent to me by this verse that every man knows God exists (or God has revealed Himself in various ways, and if a person refuses to see Him, that is THEIR fault, not God's). And on whatever level they are given to understand this basic truth, they are tasked with accepting Him, or rejecting Him.

It is not necessary to have knowledge of Jesus and the Bible to be saved - if the oportunity to gain such knowledge has not been presented to you, God (who is just and merciful and full of grace) will not expect you to qualify for salvation under the same provisions as someone who has.

IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE, though.

Since a child cannot wrap their minds around the concept of God and salvation in the manner which is required in order to make an educated decision one way or another, they are exempt from such requirements. If they pass away (die) before they CAN, they have a one way ticket into Heaven.

God is JUST. That means He is completely fair. No one goes to Hell without choosing to do so.

quote:Not everyone in the world has had an accurate presentation of Jesus, alot of people in the world just think that Jesus was a cool guy, if they've even heard of him.

Those that have heard of him wil be tasked with finding out the truth on their own.

I think humanity relies too much on "waiting for someone to show me"...at least in more advanced cultures.

For many indigenous peoples, there is no contention with whether or not a "maker" exists.

I recently suggested that everyone here rent a movie called Baraka, in which the most primitive civilizations are recorded, and ALL of them had developed their own sense of "God", and their own kind of worship of Him.

They didn't have, nor will they ever have, access to a Bible...most likely. Does that mean they are sentenced to an eternity in Hell ?

No. They believe that God exists...they may call Him something besides God, Elohim, Allah, or whatever...but they know who He is, and they worship Him.

That is all God will require of them, since that is the extent of their experience.

Even those who do not know the Scriptures are without excuse because, all around them, they can see ample evidence of the eternal power and deity of God. This should cause them to seek God. Israel was told that even in captivity they could find God if they diligently sought Him: "But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul" (Deuteronomy 4:29).

God has promised: "I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently will find me" (Proverbs 8:17). "And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13).

Jesus said: "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened" (Matthew 7:7,8).

Again, ignorance is no excuse. The evidence of God's existence is overwhelming, and God has promised that those who truly seek Him will find Him.

quote:Is God gonna roast all those billions of souls in Hell for eternity? I think not. That would not be loving.

No. He wouldn't.

quote:He'd have to take them to Heaven as the alternative, how are you gonna fit billions and billions of resurrected BODIES in a space 1500 miles high and 1500 miles wide?

You think God did not plan for how many WOULD be going to heaven ?

According to Tophis Bible dictionary:



An angel measured the length of the city (Heaven) to be 12000 furlongs long. The length, breadth, and the height are equal. This represents a space of 469Sextillion, 783Quintillion, 088quadrillion, 000billion, 000million, 000t, and 000h cubic feet.



It sets aside one half of this for the Throne and the Court of Heaven, leaving 124sextillion, 198quintillion, 272quadrillion, 000b, 000m, 000t, 000h cubic feet for everything and everyone else.



If you divide this by 4,096, which is the number of cubical feet in a room sixteen feet square, this process gives 30quintillion, 321quadrillion, 843b, 750m, 000t, 000h rooms of the size indicated. (4,096)



Upon the hypothesis that at any given time, the world contains around 990,000,000 inhabitants and that a generation lasts for thirty-three and one-third year. This gives us a total number of inhabitants every century of 2b, 297m, 000t, 000h. Now, let's assume that the world will stand for 1,000 centuries or 100,000 years, which would give a total of 2quadrillion, 970b, 000m, 000t, 000h inhabitants for this period of time. We then reach the conclusion that if 100 worlds of the same size and duration and containing the same number of inhabitants, there would be more than 100 rooms of the size indicated for each person.

Furlongs



To Convert From: Multiply By:



Furlongs to feet 660 . 0*

Furlongs to meters 201 . 168*

Furlongs to miles 0 . 125*

Furlongs to yard 220 . 0*

That's ONE hypothesis.

You have to consider that there are LEGIONS of angels in Heaven, as we speak. Have you any idea how many angels fills up a LEGION ?

Thousands upon thousands. God made provision for THEM, so why wouldn't He make provisions for US ?

Describing the throne of God surrounded by heavenly spirits, the prophet Daniel is at a loss in determining the number of those heavenly beings, our good Angels: "Thousands of thousands ministered to Him, and ten thousand times a hundred thousand stood before Him."[16] Bible commentators tell us that the figures here given by Daniel do not express a definite number. They serve to convey the idea of a multitude that is far beyond the power of human language to express. More than figures, they are really hyperbolical expressions for an innumerable multitude of Angels standing around the throne of God.[17] Daniel 7:10

John 14:2 - "In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you." (Jesus - NIV Translation)

quote:See my point? I don't want to undermine your faith..no actually I do, just because. I stil admire you. You got balls to stand up on these forums and shoot down alot of stupidity that goes on. Bravo.

A chick with balls...now THAT'S something to contemplate !

*grin*

Thank you, once again. I appreciate it.

I also appreciate that you have thought long and hard enough about God to have these sorts of questions.

quote:Two questions: Are you with any church or anything like that? How old are you?

I attend Calvary Chapels. They are non-denominational (no religious preference), and strictly Biblical. A great deal of emphasis is placed upon the Hebrew translation of the Bible, so as to remain as accurate as possible.

I am 26.

I have type A- blood.

I have auburn hair, and blue eyes.

*grins*

With all this said, I wonder at why such an unimportant aspect of our faith bothers you this much. From my perspective, there are FAR greater things to be worried about doctrinally.

God can do all things...that includes making a place big enough for us all.

I also do not believe that when it is all said and done, there will BE billions of believers in Heaven.

I don't even think there will be more than 5 million, total.

Not to say that is a small amount, but if our teeny little planet can house us all, surely Heaven can as well.

I have enjoyed this topic...keep 'em coming.

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

digitalsaviour...

thats actually pretty cool... i never met someone who i could ask questions without getting flamed. you got no idea how many churches/temples/mosques i been kicked out of http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

d'you have an e mail address i can get you at cause i got a load of questions which would realy take a long time to get through on a forum like this.

sarith@thatbrat.com

Oh, I have an idea...*grin*

As I said, I use AIM - my screen name is desired hush.

Is that a good way for you to communicate with me ?

I am very bad about responding to email. *blushes*

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:



Due to my possibly fortunate, possibly unfortunate Christian upbringing, I know the Bible rather well, and in Revelations chapter something it states that the Heavenly City will be 1500 miles high and 1500 miles wide.





you just said its a heavenly city..not heaven as a whole. Think about it, if God is making paradise, and he can do anything he wants to..why would he make heaven so limited?

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

not to be blunt and illiterate but wha exactly is AIM?

http://www.aim.com/

I recommend taoism. It makes sense.

I am a taoist of the nihilistic variety. The idea of an anthropomorphic, moralistic deity is ludicrous to me, (but if it makes you happy and you don't try to force your beliefs on others, good for you)

i feel that the fact that we live in an amoral universe gives human morals greater value.

Omnitheism=Autotheism

[This message has been edited by Void_Zero (edited 06-28-2005).]