I understand yalls unbelief, but it's narrow-minded. It's selfish to think you're the top of the chain. It's ignorant to say the only truth is what you can see with the natrual senses. You can't understand supernatrual with a natrual mind. God is Supernatrual.

I'm tired of hearing people use christians as an excuse to NOT believe. People are humans and they're tempted by their flesh just like anyone else in any way, when they fall into temptation we say, "I knew he wasn't a REAL christians, he's a hypocrite." What makes them hypocrites? Because they aren't the Christ? We're told build a personal relationship with Christ, Read the word, pray. Those are the first things you do, and that's SEEKING CHRIST. The next thing we're taught to do, is fellowship with other believers for encouragement. Then, minister.

I'm tired of hearing people use the trials of their past as a reason not to believe. I don't care if the person who hurt you claimed to be a christian, they pursued their own sexual/sadistic desires to do what they did and how they did it, when they did it. The thought that they acted out wasn't placed their by God, it was their temptation used to HARM YOU and hold YOU BACK. Giving up on God for that reason is to say you don't have what it takes to see past people's mistakes caused by temptation from the enemy, and to LOVE them. EVERYONE goes through things, they didn't ask to go through. Not everyone blames God. Some fall and get back up, some live in their past pain all their lives and live a bitter, unhappy life.

When you live in sin or don't deal with sin:

When you don't deal with sin in your life you give the enemy a stronghold on you. You can't live a double life, but if you're living in sin and using God to feel better about sinning, you aren't fooling anyone but yourself because God knows the true desires of your heart. The wages of sin is Death!

So you've lost your mother, father, granny to death. Get over it. Death is a part of life, and you have what you believe you have. Chances are that persons unconfessed sin and lack of belief in the creative power of the Living God to heal them left them their on their death bed.



I'm not trying to be mean, I love you all so much. Why exactly don't you believe in God? When did you stop believeing, if you ever did believe? Why? When trials came, and you turned and blamed the wrong one? Then you formed your own theological bologna? WHY IS IT AMERICANS ARE SO GOOD AT MAKING AN INNOCENT GUILTY, but they've lost sight of believeing in the BEST?

Dude, you're gay.

HellzShellz:

Despite the choice of wording in your first sentence, I'm attempting to view this with a certain level of seriousness.

"It's selfish to think you're the top of the chain."

An animal will consider itself at the top of the food chain... until something larger and more powerful comes along and eats it. Humanity has yet to encounter a being/species that utterly surpasses it at every turn. Maybe we will, someday. Maybe we won't. Until then, it's anyone's guess.

"It's ignorant to say the only truth is what you can see with the natrual senses."

Why? We experience the world around us on a daily basis. Our senses, our minds, interpret this world. What evidence is there that anything exists beyond this state? If it were so glaringly obvious, then everyone would share your feelings. Apparently, there is a certain level of uncertainty. How then can you call anyone ignorant for simply following a different belief?

"You can't understand supernatrual with a natrual mind. God is Supernatrual."

I hope you realize the contradiction here.

...The "Christian-hater" section... I just don't care enough to respond.

"Why exactly don't you believe in God? When did you stop believeing, if you ever did believe? Why?"

Is there a reason for actually believing in God? Is there a reason to form assumptions that have no factual basis whatsoever?

One can become a 'good person', even mimic the teachings of Christ without believing in God. If this is the case, then what additional purpose would the belief in God serve to the atheist that lives a compassionate, fulfilling life? Religion is not a requisite to morality or happiness.

Why should I believe, O Enlightened One?

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

One can become a 'good person', even mimic the teachings of Christ without believing in God. If this is the case, then what additional purpose would the belief in God serve to the atheist that lives a compassionate, fulfilling life? Religion is not a requisite to morality or happiness.

Why should I believe, O Enlightened One?

Good post.

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

HellzShellz:

Despite the choice of wording in your first sentence, I'm attempting to view this with a certain level of seriousness.

"It's selfish to think you're the top of the chain."

An animal will consider itself at the top of the food chain... until something larger and more powerful comes along and eats it. Humanity has yet to encounter a being/species that utterly surpasses it at every turn. Maybe we will, someday. Maybe we won't. Until then, it's anyone's guess.

"It's ignorant to say the only truth is what you can see with the natrual senses."

Why? We experience the world around us on a daily basis. Our senses, our minds, interpret this world. What evidence is there that anything exists beyond this state? If it were so glaringly obvious, then everyone would share your feelings. Apparently, there is a certain level of uncertainty. How then can you call anyone ignorant for simply following a different belief?

"You can't understand supernatrual with a natrual mind. God is Supernatrual."

I hope you realize the contradiction here.

...The "Christian-hater" section... I just don't care enough to respond.

"Why exactly don't you believe in God? When did you stop believeing, if you ever did believe? Why?"

Is there a reason for actually believing in God? Is there a reason to form assumptions that have no factual basis whatsoever?

One can become a 'good person', even mimic the teachings of Christ without believing in God. If this is the case, then what additional purpose would the belief in God serve to the atheist that lives a compassionate, fulfilling life? Religion is not a requisite to morality or happiness.

Why should I believe, O Enlightened One?

I'm not the Enlightened one, I'm one of many. Yes, people can do things by the arm of the flesh, but it's always temporary. Things done of God through Faith, to glorify God, isn't temporary.

Actually, the more science tries to disprove God, it ends up explaining God. That's more proof than the evolution theory now being said, 'wrong'.

There's a spiritual part to it, so me saying that you can't understand the supernatrual with a natrual/carnal mind isn't contradicting.

Romans 8:6-7 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

It's truth.

When I turned back to God, what I felt felt real, because it was real and is real. Even after many of my prayers being answered so quicklike, My mind brought up doubts, but when I'd pray, I'd forget the doubt and know God is there.

I'm not trying to argue with yall, I really want to know. I hope for everyone. I've been there.. so my heart goes out to yall. It's odd, sometimes. I think, "What could someone have said to me to get me to believe?" The answer is nothing. I had to make the decision to be open-minded and read the bible myself with someone there to explain what I didn't understand, or what seemed to contradict. I picked up about 4 different translations, but it was so worth it. Now, there's no way I'll ever doubt. I want the same for yall. I want yall to see, what I see and understand what I understand now.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Actually, the more science tries to disprove God, it ends up explaining God. That's more proof than the evolution theory now being said, 'wrong'.

Eh? Elaborate on this?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

It's ignorant to say the only truth is what you can see with the natrual senses.

It's also ignorant to spell things wrong.

quote:

So you've lost your mother, father, granny to death. Get over it. Death is a part of life, and you have what you believe you have. Chances are that persons unconfessed sin and lack of belief in the creative power of the Living God to heal them left them their on their death bed.

I actually know more non-deists that accept death than I do deists. Most non-deists accept death as the natural order of things, because they've no God to blame it on (and because it is). If they blame death on God, then, obviously, they're deists and standing on shaky ground, at that.

HellzShellz, you're very pretentious in assuming your "Word" is right.

"I love you all so much," you say, well then respect our differences. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

QUOTE Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I'm not trying to argue with yall, I really want to know.

Ah, contradictions at every turn. Yall will never know so long as yall don't form real arguments.

I think, "What could someone have said to me to get me to believe?" The answer is nothing.

The answer is easy: "Everybody is doing it! Yall won't fit in until yall do, too!"

I had to make the decision to be open-minded and read the bible myself with someone there to explain what I didn't understand, or what seemed to contradict.

I bet. It must have taken quite a while, too. Did yall actually count the number of contradictions, physically impossible feats, and references to invisible objects?

I picked up about 4 different translations, but it was so worth it. Now, there's no way I'll ever doubt. I want the same for yall. I want yall to see, what I see and understand what I understand now.

Wow, that is 4 different and totally undeniable pieces of evidence to back the unprovable. No wonder yall reconverted.

What? Harry Potter has 6 books now? Uh-oh, time for yall to return to the Coven.

But yall don't need books to believe in gods when yall can just point to yall's spirituality. Yall can feel spirituality so yall know its there. No, wait yall, that's called emotion.

But don't get me wrong yall - I love all of yall. Yall are just misguided is all.

quote:One can become a 'good person', even mimic the teachings of Christ without believing in God. If this is the case, then what additional purpose would the belief in God serve to the atheist that lives a compassionate, fulfilling life? Religion is not a requisite to morality or happines



Exactly. But just because modern christianity states that God is just one being is absurd. Just because they believe god in one way doesn't make it right.

Ahhhhh, Sarter, too many 'yalls'. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

HellzShellz:

"Yes, people can do things by the arm of the flesh, but it's always temporary. Things done of God through Faith, to glorify God, isn't temporary."

Honestly, does it matter? Is a kind and generous atheist somehow less worthy of your praise and gratitude than a similar Christian that is 'glorifying God'?

"Actually, the more science tries to disprove God, it ends up explaining God. That's more proof than the evolution theory now being said, 'wrong'."

I'm with Paradise here; please elaborate.

I had written up more... but I'm having difficulty making it coherent. I'll get back to it later.

Shouldn't it be nonbeliever?

In the conventional sense of the arguement that is.

-Val

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

HellzShellz, you're very pretentious in assuming your "Word" is right.

"I love you all so much," you say, well then respect our differences. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I respect them, it's just there I've been there. The world did nothing for me.

THIS IS PRETTY LONG, BUT INTERESTING...

TELL ME WHAT "YALL" THINK.

"THE 'LOGICALITY' OF A SUPERNATURAL GOD"

What is strange in the "diety-philes" side of the debate is the circular logic to prove a point (such as the concept implied that god exists, one finds god's word in the bible which is perfect and true, the bible is true because it is gods word, therefore practically stating that "god exists because god exists").

Truth lies primarily through empirical knowledge, and this differs from individual to individual. If truth is 'a priori', then man is born similar, and evolves in a similar way to others. As we see, this is not so. A priest has not grown to accept the same truths and perceptions as a thief. There is no such thing as natural truths that everyone must except (A 1995 expirement proved this by raising children subjected only to opposites of the common truths, ex: blue is not blue, but instead it is red. The children grew up to believe this, and their entire perception was altered entirely, for they saw blue as red) Because knowledge is not a priori, man has will to choose. If man chooses to deny a god, that becomes truth to him, and he lives that truth. If man chooses to reinforce the will of a god, he submits truth to an altruistic (altruistic for the reason that man COMMONLY creates a god with more power than he, and wishes to appease the God through utilitarianistic principles) figure and leaves himself dependent. This sounds like slavery. When pursuing the will of a god (even if it declares possible benefits), man gives up what he believes, what he follows from empirical evidence, and morphs his beliefs for the security that their human fallacies and questions may be guided.

God is submission of knowledge for security in oneself. A person, once content with this security, can find it difficult to return to the past beliefs. Nietzsche writes in "Beyond Good and Evil" that when one becomes entangled in one's belief, he sees only that belief, and therfore restricts the knowledge that he may potentially gain.

The security one sees in god is actually empowering for the reason that the believers see themselves at an advantage (though this is merely a set paradigm) with a paternalistic ruler guiding them. This may explain why many believers feel the need to protect or promote their religion.(e.g. Muslim "jihad" or The Crusades).

TO EXPLAIN MORE ON WHY GOD IS SHIT

God merely a word. miracles are merely what happens when one worships this word enough. GOD is not an entity that established the world. It is not an overseer of health, of prosperity, of sins. God is morality that man binds himself to. If one wishes to believe that god can do the things listed above, god exists, and the person perceives these actions. GOD is only a word that people place blindly sought power into. God is an idea that binds men to cut throats and establish freindships (as well as enemies). And most of all, this word "god" is a barrier in which men separate themselves. God symbolizes a way of thinking that allows discrimination of thought. We can already see this in the debate.

In actuality, god does not exist to guide the people as a whole, but instead, it guides the individual that wishes to create it.

It is also rather funny that if all the different gods exists (and those believing in that god believe that it is the only god of that kind), then we are all going to hell and heaven does not exist because every religion that includes an almighty god(ess) opposes characteristics of other religions. So i guess we can all rage on that our religion is the best, that we are going to a better place when we die. Keep believing that. Your mind is the true god, and what ever you believe to be true is true. Start believing in yourself, and stop trying to conform others your belief. Just fucking relax and enjoy what you think!

sincerely,

a stoned 16 year old..........-

Jesus was a human apocalyptic rabbi.

Christianity is a perversion of Judaism.

The golden rule s'allright but thats all.

Religions are the teachings of the ignorant. To deny the "word of God" is to be free. If God sends people to hell for not believing in him, then he is truly the greatest fascist of all, and is the most self centered and arrogant creature in all known universe.

But the truth is, there is no God, and if there was, he'd be a faggot.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



I'm not trying to be mean, I love you all so much. Why exactly don't you believe in God? When did you stop believeing, if you ever did believe? Why? When trials came, and you turned and blamed the wrong one? Then you formed your own theological bologna? WHY IS IT AMERICANS ARE SO GOOD AT MAKING AN INNOCENT GUILTY, but they've lost sight of believeing in the BEST?





You are the reason i dont believe in God. If there is a God he doesnt want blind followers ,not preaching fanatics. Somewhere along the line people have twisted religion, Its not about restraining yourself ,its not about depriving yourself. You don't get into heaven by spreading the "word" , there is only one word and that word is Love.

Read the bible and forget all the great shows of power ,all the vindictive power of an ancient god,and remeber it is about love. Jesus is perhaps a better example ,you never see Jesus telling people that they must believe in god ,only that you must Love god (and if anyone pulls a quote of Jesus saying "believe in god" im gonna be very dissapointed). Religion is not about forcing people to pray everyday ,it is not about soemthing that is public and full of pomp and majesty. Its personal , no organised religion is dedicated to god, most people in the church believe in the church but not god.



Give up your christian beliefs, use them as guidance to help you Love ,but dont rely on them. If you have to believe in a god ,belive in Him ,not the church.

See ,unstoned people can come up with this shit too....

ok, why did my reply show up blank?

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:



You are the reason i dont believe in God. If there is a God he doesnt want blind followers ,not preaching fanatics. Somewhere along the line people have twisted religion, Its not about restraining yourself ,its not about depriving yourself. You don't get into heaven by spreading the "word" , there is only one word and that word is Love.

Read the bible and forget all the great shows of power ,all the vindictive power of an ancient god,and remeber it is about love. Jesus is perhaps a better example ,you never see Jesus telling people that they must believe in god ,only that you must Love god (and if anyone pulls a quote of Jesus saying "believe in god" im gonna be very dissapointed). Religion is not about forcing people to pray everyday ,it is not about soemthing that is public and full of pomp and majesty. Its personal , no organised religion is dedicated to god, most people in the church believe in the church but not god.



Give up your christian beliefs, use them as guidance to help you Love ,but dont rely on them. If you have to believe in a god ,belive in Him ,not the church.

See ,unstoned people can come up with this shit too....



Not true. We teach everything the bible says and as long as you accept Christ in your life, you have salvation, because NO MAN can be in Christ and be of sin.

Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

However, if you are in Christ, you can be tempted by the enemy through the flesh, but it's your choice to give in to temptation, or resist temptation. If you give in, God's mercies are new each day and you repent. You don't have to be perfect, because Jesus was perfect for you.

Yes, it is about a personal relationship with Christ, for no man comes to the father except by Christ, and if you're a Jew, you're God's chosen and I don't want to debate that at all.

It's all about a willingness though. "You can go as far in Christ as you want." Paul reached the third heaven. If to accept Christ the Flesh must die, then he died three times. I don't believe in the Church as a building, but I do believe in the Church as a people (The manifestation.) However, the body isn't too much doing what it should be doing, because of a religious attitude.

I'm word faith, the religious people aren't to fond of us either.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Religions are the teachings of the ignorant. To deny the "word of God" is to be free. If God sends people to hell for not believing in him, then he is truly the greatest fascist of all, and is the most self centered and arrogant creature in all known universe.

But the truth is, there is no God, and if there was, he'd be a faggot.

This reminds me of a famous (former) jewish mathmatiscian (sp?) who referred to god as "SF" (supreme fascist).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HellzShellz:

[B]I understand yalls unbelief, but it's narrow-minded.

quote:We teach everything the bible says

if only that were true http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



Not true. We teach everything the bible says and as long as you accept Christ in your life, you have salvation, because NO MAN can be in Christ and be of sin.

Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

However, if you are in Christ, you can be tempted by the enemy through the flesh, but it's your choice to give in to temptation, or resist temptation. If you give in, God's mercies are new each day and you repent. You don't have to be perfect, because Jesus was perfect for you.

Yes, it is about a personal relationship with Christ, for no man comes to the father except by Christ, and if you're a Jew, you're God's chosen and I don't want to debate that at all.

It's all about a willingness though. "You can go as far in Christ as you want." Paul reached the third heaven. If to accept Christ the Flesh must die, then he died three times. I don't believe in the Church as a building, but I do believe in the Church as a people (The manifestation.) However, the body isn't too much doing what it should be doing, because of a religious attitude.

I'm word faith, the religious people aren't to fond of us either.

You've ignored my point. Im not saying "teach the bible" im not saying that you need a god or a christ.

the bible is but a guide ,and a bad one at that (i mean Peter has issues ,he killed a bunch of farmers and shit for not giving him money, theres a lot of evil in the bible commited by the apostles). To truely "believe" one must give up belief ,give up faith and LOVE. Forget church forget worship . Its all bollucks ,they want nothing more than your money and support . If god was real there would be no hierarchy(sp?) in the church ,in the eyes of "god" each man would be equal. God (if he exists) is all powerful and aouldnt need worship ,but im sure he would respect praise and to give god praise you have to Love his creations (once again IF he exists) i dont mean in a physical way (although that will happen(leave the animals alone you freaks)) but respectit.



well im fucked ive just lost my train of thought .... but even so ,i implore you give up your religion and love. Even in the bible it says to worship in solituded and keep worship personal ,it says do not make it public and expect praise for it. Even the bible says the church is bullshit, deny this and deny your whole bible loving religion.....

screw im going to bed .....fuckers

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

You've ignored my point. Im not saying "teach the bible" im not saying that you need a god or a christ.

the bible is but a guide ,and a bad one at that (i mean Peter has issues ,he killed a bunch of farmers and shit for not giving him money, theres a lot of evil in the bible commited by the apostles). To truely "believe" one must give up belief ,give up faith and LOVE. Forget church forget worship . Its all bollucks ,they want nothing more than your money and support . If god was real there would be no hierarchy(sp?) in the church ,in the eyes of "god" each man would be equal. God (if he exists) is all powerful and aouldnt need worship ,but im sure he would respect praise and to give god praise you have to Love his creations (once again IF he exists) i dont mean in a physical way (although that will happen(leave the animals alone you freaks)) but respectit.



well im fucked ive just lost my train of thought .... but even so ,i implore you give up your religion and love. Even in the bible it says to worship in solituded and keep worship personal ,it says do not make it public and expect praise for it. Even the bible says the church is bullshit, deny this and deny your whole bible loving religion.....

screw im going to bed .....fuckers

Acts 5:1-10 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

It doesn't say they killed them. It says THEY DIED.

HAIL SATAN!!!!!

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

It doesn't say they killed them. It says THEY DIED.

Read between the lines.

Me and my friend went into a Christian book store and asked were the adult section was. The lady didnt understand. It was quite funny.

Oh and to the original post I think that YOU are ignorant and according to your belifs that makes me right.

These '0mG liZzeN 2 t3h JesUs!!!!1!1' boards seriously suck. If we wanted to be preached to, we'd go to church or something. This is more of an advertisement than an actual topic.

And your choice of words make you sound like a southern hick, by the way, which probably gives you even less credibility.

Try learning about some other religions instead of calling US ignorant while you ramble on and on about your own and why everybody else is wrong.

Have a nice day,

Hippie

quote:Originally posted by Fai1safe:

Me and my friend went into a Christian book store and asked were the adult section was. The lady didnt understand. It was quite funny.

Ha ha ha.. I'll have to try that sometime. Bonus points if it's an old lady or if there's a little kid nearby.

quote:Originally posted by Sarter:

Read between the lines.

No, that's called assuming.

Maybe yall should come over some time and we'll have a hog roast and play dualling banjos. Now where my cousin at?

Yall isn't a word douche. If you have an accent, it doesn't mean you can rewrite a language to fit it, or was that in the bible.

God isn't real to me, because he is fictional. The whole fucking bible is full of metaphors by the way, did you not stop and think that maybe the ideal that is god, was also just a metaphor? What's next, science is the work of the devil to belittle gods miracles. You seem to have a lot of, what's that word, pride in your religion. Say, isn't pride a deadly sin? Do you own anything that you don't need? Thats' greed my friend. You get greedy because you envy others. If you have sex for purposes other than procreation, that's lust. You obviousely spent some time writing this and then probably watched TV and did generally as little as possible since i'm assuming you're on summer break. That would be sloth. All this sitting around makes fat too which is also a sin. And now that i've pointed out how stupid and impossible it would be to function in society without sinning your face off, you're probably getting annoyed and angry. That's all seven sins that you are guilty of for being human. I'm completely open minded, but i'm not going to except a load of bullshit just because i can't disprove what you can't prove. Burden of proof lies on the shoulders who make the claim, not those who refute it. Did you know that the higher level of education that one receives, the more likely they are not to believe in god. I wonder why?

Organized religion is bullshit.

God is a concept created by man to explain the unexplainable. The Romans had many gods to explain weather, the moon, tides, harvest etc. God isn't supernatural. God is man-made.

you know what i hate? people that use the bible as a reason to believe in god. the bible is made by men and COMPLETELY fallible. nothing in the bible has any reason to be believed more than any other book written by men. saying "and jesus said . . . ." does not mean shit. do you know he said that? do you have proof he actually existed other than a scrap of paper saying he did? no, its not possible to. hence following the bible is the worst kind of blind faith. if you believe god has spoken to you or that god is really out there because of real things you have experienced then thats fair enough but quit using a fucking book to justify the worst kind of believe imaginable.

quote:Originally posted by BaKeD_gOoDs:

Maybe yall should come over some time and we'll have a hog roast and play dualling banjos. Now where my cousin at?

Yall isn't a word douche. If you have an accent, it doesn't mean you can rewrite a language to fit it, or was that in the bible.

God isn't real to me, because he is fictional. The whole fucking bible is full of metaphors by the way, did you not stop and think that maybe the ideal that is god, was also just a metaphor? What's next, science is the work of the devil to belittle gods miracles. You seem to have a lot of, what's that word, pride in your religion. Say, isn't pride a deadly sin? Do you own anything that you don't need? Thats' greed my friend. You get greedy because you envy others. If you have sex for purposes other than procreation, that's lust. You obviousely spent some time writing this and then probably watched TV and did generally as little as possible since i'm assuming you're on summer break. That would be sloth. All this sitting around makes fat too which is also a sin. And now that i've pointed out how stupid and impossible it would be to function in society without sinning your face off, you're probably getting annoyed and angry. That's all seven sins that you are guilty of for being human. I'm completely open minded, but i'm not going to except a load of bullshit just because i can't disprove what you can't prove. Burden of proof lies on the shoulders who make the claim, not those who refute it. Did you know that the higher level of education that one receives, the more likely they are not to believe in god. I wonder why?



Like Baked goods said, people are not perfect and I fail to see the point why many Christians say "You don't have to be perfect," when technically, believing in Christianity is demanding you to be perfect. Afterall, if God really did exist, don't you think he's created a massive Sin? This whole religion crap is contradicting, by creating the universe and by creating people and animals. We all need to eat, and well guess what, we eat animals. Protein is necessary for growth. Then what about the animals? Are they just lifeless being waiting to be devoured? I don't know about God but I consider it Sin to create excess lives just waiting for their death. Not to mention the inability to interpret and function with human instincts. Whatever fuck I'm rambling, I'll go eat my breakfast now.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I understand yalls unbelief, but it's narrow-minded. It's selfish to think you're the top of the chain. It's ignorant to say the only truth is what you can see with the natrual senses. You can't understand supernatrual with a natrual mind. God is Supernatrual.

Excuse me, do you actually pretend that you understand God? Do you have a supernatural mind? Stop calling people ignorant when you are incapable of using your own intelligence (what little you have anyway) to see that the bible is not reliable for you to base anything on, much less your way of living. The rest of your post is nonsensical rant. There are lots of sites for you to check the bible's contradictions, here's the first I found: http://www.borndigital.com/tcont.htm

In the meantime, why don't you accept that people can decide for themselves what to believe and that it is a lot better than what "you are taught" or what "you are told".

I myself don't believe that the bible is the word of god for many reson's HS. One of which is how long it took from the first tellings of the stories contained within it, to the first written bible. Second who wrote the bible, which was mainly men. These men of which I speak lived in a time where women were equal to livestock. Hence the bibles lack of user friendliness to women even to this day.

If these were the true words of god, then he/she would have worded it with equality in mind for all of his/her. Mind you this isn't a problem only with the bible alone. Just about every religion on earth elevates the male over the female. This is one of the reason's the world is in the sorry state that it's in now.

Also there are far too many inconsistentcies in the bible to mention. If you wish to follow something that most likely isn't the true words of god, then by all means do so.

I will continue to think for myself and question anything that doesn't make sense to me.

[This message has been edited by Nemisis (edited 07-05-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Fai1safe:

Me and my friend went into a Christian book store and asked were the adult section was. The lady didnt understand. It was quite funny.





quote:Originally posted by hungryhippie:

Ha ha ha.. I'll have to try that sometime. Bonus points if it's an old lady or if there's a little kid nearby.

If you try it ask if they have a nonfiction section too. Don't forget to post results.

[This message has been edited by Doey (edited 07-05-2005).]

Wow HellzShellz just got her shit completely RUINED, just like every other stupid dumbass Christian preaching "the truth" to people who don't give a shit. Just eat shit and die. If you were so certain God existed, why don't you kill yourself so you can go to "Heaven"? It'd save me and a lot of others the trouble of putting up with your bullshit and having to stomp your dumb ass.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I understand yalls unbelief, but it's narrow-minded. It's selfish to think you're the top of the chain. It's ignorant to say the only truth is what you can see with the natrual senses. You can't understand supernatrual with a natrual mind. God is Supernatrual.

I'm tired of hearing people use christians as an excuse to NOT believe. People are humans and they're tempted by their flesh just like anyone else in any way, when they fall into temptation we say, "I knew he wasn't a REAL christians, he's a hypocrite." What makes them hypocrites? Because they aren't the Christ? We're told build a personal relationship with Christ, Read the word, pray. Those are the first things you do, and that's SEEKING CHRIST. The next thing we're taught to do, is fellowship with other believers for encouragement. Then, minister.

I'm tired of hearing people use the trials of their past as a reason not to believe. I don't care if the person who hurt you claimed to be a christian, they pursued their own sexual/sadistic desires to do what they did and how they did it, when they did it. The thought that they acted out wasn't placed their by God, it was their temptation used to HARM YOU and hold YOU BACK. Giving up on God for that reason is to say you don't have what it takes to see past people's mistakes caused by temptation from the enemy, and to LOVE them. EVERYONE goes through things, they didn't ask to go through. Not everyone blames God. Some fall and get back up, some live in their past pain all their lives and live a bitter, unhappy life.

When you live in sin or don't deal with sin:

When you don't deal with sin in your life you give the enemy a stronghold on you. You can't live a double life, but if you're living in sin and using God to feel better about sinning, you aren't fooling anyone but yourself because God knows the true desires of your heart. The wages of sin is Death!

So you've lost your mother, father, granny to death. Get over it. Death is a part of life, and you have what you believe you have. Chances are that persons unconfessed sin and lack of belief in the creative power of the Living God to heal them left them their on their death bed.



I'm not trying to be mean, I love you all so much. Why exactly don't you believe in God? When did you stop believeing, if you ever did believe? Why? When trials came, and you turned and blamed the wrong one? Then you formed your own theological bologna? WHY IS IT AMERICANS ARE SO GOOD AT MAKING AN INNOCENT GUILTY, but they've lost sight of believeing in the BEST?



when u say you beleive in god you dont, you beleive in hundreds of generations of people in your family telling you there is a god, Not to mention the christians killed many polytheistic socieities

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

yalls



I stopped

quote:Originally posted by 3ch1dn4:

I stopped





That made me laugh.

It was an old lady that we asked but no little kiddies around. It was even funny cause she had no idea what we were going on about.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Excuse me, do you actually pretend that you understand God? Do you have a supernatural mind? Stop calling people ignorant when you are incapable of using your own intelligence (what little you have anyway) to see that the bible is not reliable for you to base anything on, much less your way of living. The rest of your post is nonsensical rant. There are lots of sites for you to check the bible's contradictions, here's the first I found: http://www.borndigital.com/tcont.htm

In the meantime, why don't you accept that people can decide for themselves what to believe and that it is a lot better than what "you are taught" or what "you are told".

You find what you look for, at some point or another. You need to understand the difference between the OT and the NT. You also need to take the CONTEXT of what's being said into account. If that means reading the AMPLIFIED be it so. I thought God callin' Job perfect and upright was a contradiction, until I learned Perfect was hebrew 'tam', meaning WHOLE/COMPLETE. Job's life was COMPLETE/WHOLE.

quote:If that means reading the AMPLIFIED be it so

oh dear.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

You find what you look for, at some point or another. You need to understand the difference between the OT and the NT. You also need to take the CONTEXT of what's being said into account. If that means reading the AMPLIFIED be it so. I thought God callin' Job perfect and upright was a contradiction, until I learned Perfect was hebrew 'tam', meaning WHOLE/COMPLETE. Job's life was COMPLETE/WHOLE.

Trust me I understand the difference between the two books. What I don't understand is how the immoral, hideous and disgusting god of the old testament who commands murder, rape and slavery is the same God who sends Jesus to preach love, equality and understanding.

Also, learn to read carefully before answering on one tiny point and calling this an argument. There's a whole section about CONTEXT in the link I posted which was apparently lost to you. People like you make the word "christian" synonymous to "stupid".

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Because they aren't the Christ?

The wages of sin is Death!

WHY IS IT AMERICANS ARE SO GOOD AT MAKING AN INNOCENT GUILTY

i had to hold myself i laughed so hard.

quote:originally posted by Braunschweiger Vagina:

Dude, you're gay.

icing on the cake.

quote:originally posted by HellzShellz:

I'm not trying to argue with yall, I really want to know. I hope for everyone. I've been there.. so my heart goes out to yall. It's odd, sometimes. I think, "What could someone have said to me to get me to believe?" The answer is nothing. I had to make the decision to be open-minded and read the bible myself with someone there to explain what I didn't understand, or what seemed to contradict. I picked up about 4 different translations, but it was so worth it. Now, there's no way I'll ever doubt. I want the same for yall. I want yall to see, what I see and understand what I understand now.

hillbilly.

[This message has been edited by HandicapParking (edited 07-06-2005).]

Explain to me EXACTLY how they died . Explain to me how an apostle with the spirit within him asks a question such as that ,and when the question is answered with a lie, even though the actions he took were prudent. Explain to me how he just died. Just died for no reason ,and then his wife comes in ... and dies

Peter wanted all his money ,because the man kept some of the money back he DIED . Face it ,Peter was drunk on power. They gave him this power ,Power Corrupts ,and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely . I dont know where that is from but credit to whoever came up with it. Peter and it is safe to assume the other apostles were given power and they abused it. The only righteous person in the bible is Jesus, the only person who LOVED was Jesus ,the only one that didnt order plagues and death was Jesus. And im certain jesus sins somewhere in the bible.

You can never defend the bible or christianity ,you must take what you can to make you a good person ,you must KNOW what is good and what is wrong. There is no absolute good ,or absolute evil ,they blend . But if acts are carried out with love and respect for others ,for life, then that is when you have reached atonement for your crimes ,in the end the only person capable of judging you is yourself. God is either a balance ,a neutrality ,or god is not all powerful . Either way he is probaly indifferant.

Please ,LIVE! forget this bullshit ,forget "God" know that you are the sum of yourself ,yes you are fallible and yes ,you sin. But you can love and overcome evil....

Fuck it ,your lucky i have so much spare time to preach shit back at you ,im hoping maybe ill get you to accept that god has no power over you . Live your own life ,only intefere in others lives to aid them. We're only gonna live once ,and i know im not making the best of it ,but as long as i can get past petty notions of God then i feel i have earned something. Screw it anyway im gonna get a drink ,but i have nothing left to do with myself ,go ahead preach to me ,send me the God Damned Word....

well that degraded into a rant....

OK Humans created god to maintain order and to get people to act the way you want them to

"God is dead" - Time Magazine

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Trust me I understand the difference between the two books. What I don't understand is how the immoral, hideous and disgusting god of the old testament who commands murder, rape and slavery is the same God who sends Jesus to preach love, equality and understanding.

Also, learn to read carefully before answering on one tiny point and calling this an argument. There's a whole section about CONTEXT in the link I posted which was apparently lost to you. People like you make the word "christian" synonymous to "stupid".

Because sin can not go unpunished. If you break the laws of this land, you have to go before the courts. You can take a plea bargin, if not, then you face more. You can turn when things get ruff, or persist in the world, and build up a judgement against yourself that the enemy can use against you.

This is Shell's Mom, and I have a few things I would like to say. Exactly where do most of you "think" you originated from? How did man come to be on this place we call "earth"(the only planet in our entire solar system, capable of sustaining life)? If we evolved, why then did some 6000 odd years ago did the evolution just stop? Why don't we see monkeys or apes giving birth to humans or horses? I guess that evolution stuff just somehow has a BIG gapping hole in it huh!1!11! How did life come to be?

Come on you all (yall) oops there goes my hillbilly slang lol oops I mean laugh out loud. How arrogant of man to think that he came into exsistance by his own will. But lets say for arguements sake we willed our selves into being. How did we then create the atmoshpere, the air, the oceans, the various animal and plant life, and how do we keep this earth in place rotating on its axis and not just spinning out of control? Why did it just stop here? Why is there no life on all the other planets? I mean if man adapted to his surroundings to become how he is today , then why is there not other life forms that also likewise adapted to their own plants? HHmmm? How do I explain God to you? God is that He is. Everyday when you see the sunrise God is there giving man another chance at grace and mercy. Everynight when you lay your head on your pillow God is there giving you the very air you need in order to face another day. Are you sure the air will be there tonight? I mean you can't see it or feel it or taste it, but you know it is there because you are still alive. Just as the air fills your lungs, So should God feel your souls. It was God who breathed life into man. Hmmm, I wonder do any of you geniuses see the connection there? The very thing that keeps you alive can not be seen or felt, but you know it is there. Isn't it amazing how we never use up all the air? I mean with over 6 billion people out there using it 24-7, why haven't we shrunk our supply? That should make you stop if not for but a sec and think about how you got here and what Force is it that holds man here. There is one God and only one God. He created man in His image and man destroyed the paradise and eternal life given to him by God for the same selfish reasons we do what we do today. Man wanted to be God, he wanted wisdow and knowledge and power aside from what he was given by God. Just like a mother does not turn around and destroy the child she gave birth to God did not destroy the child he made in man. Through his GREAT LOVE and WISDOM he gave us Christ the redeemer. Why is it so hard for you to believe that someone actually loves you that much? Is it because you know your hearts are wicked and your thoughts are evil? So you see whether or not you believe in God, it will not benefit me at all. You condenm only yourself when you deny God. Oh and one more thing before you say that you know God does not exsist, why not talk to some people who have actually died and then were brought back to life. Listen to what they have to say about death being the end. For even the great genius Einstein knew that energy can never die, it just changes forms. The smartest mortal man the world ever knew was a believer. He really was a smart man.

"God does not play dice with the universe."

This has got to be Einstein's greatest theory. For all things under the heaven serve God's perfect will. The good and the evil. God's will encompasses all.

The above post is obscene on so many levels it's funny! Jesus, man, you have your mother post in your stead? At least, she makes more sense than you.

Listen, Mrs Hellz, you obviously have no clue about evolution, astronomy or physics. You can be assured that everything can work perfectly without God. I suppose you have never heard of something called gravity or that plants produce oxygen but that doesn't mean it's a supernatural being that keeps the earth spinning and maintains Earth's atmosphere. Please, if you don't know anything about how nature works, don't use your ignorance to preach about God's greatness. Don't presume you are talking to a bunch of uneducated, immoral brats. Whether you like it or not, morals, kindness, goodness all existed before Jesus and can all exist without God. It is you who is arrogant and intolerant of those who don't have the same beliefs as yourself.

By the way, Einstein would have a good laugh with your post http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Does hellzshellz mum REALLY want me to explain all of the SHIT that just came out of her fingers? Do you really want me to explain to you . do you really want a student to explain the world ,simple laws and rules? Did you just crawl out of the dark ages?

quote:This is Shell's Mom, and I have a few things I would like to say. Exactly where do most of you "think" you originated from? How did man come to be on this place we call "earth"(the only planet in our entire solar system, capable of sustaining life)? If we evolved, why then did some 6000 odd years ago did the evolution just stop? Why don't we see monkeys or apes giving birth to humans or horses? I guess that evolution stuff just somehow has a BIG gapping hole in it huh!1!11! How did life come to be?

Apes give birth to hmns and horses? are you high on something? explain to me where this big gaping hole comes into play . 6000 years is a relatively short time in history.

where do you "think" you originated from, huh? "God" made you? if god did make you it was chance ,god is arbitrary. God is only a name for chance nothing more. It is our luck and my misfourtune that we came to evolve and be alive ,but like i said my misfourtune that peole like you are alive.

quote: How arrogant of man to think that he came into exsistance by his own will. But lets say for arguements sake we willed our selves into being. How did we then create the atmoshpere, the air, the oceans, the various animal and plant life, and how do we keep this earth in place rotating on its axis and not just spinning out of control? Why did it just stop here? Why is there no life on all the other planets? I mean if man adapted to his surroundings to become how he is today , then why is there not other life forms that also likewise adapted to their own plants? HHmmm? How do I explain God to you

Since when have people said they willed ourselves into being? what are you on about ,man had no part in the creation of the universe . we WERE NOT ALIVE!!!! ok ,does that concept sound plausible to you ,that you human race is nothing but a bunch of upstart animals. You are obviously in love with your own race ,that you believe thatwe created the univers ,your conceit amazes me ,that you think we are either gods chosen or we must have made everything ourselves . We Destroy. Nothing more ,we use to create ,we cannot create we just change things.

your arrogance is the only reason that you believe in god ,you have just sinned pride. Yoy believe yourself better than people like us because you can accept god. Your self righteous prattle is enough to put me off of the "Word" . Its people like you with complete ignorance that turn me away frm religion ,you are blind to anything but your own views. fuck it ,next point.

quote: Are you sure the air will be there tonight? I mean you can't see it or feel it or taste it, but you know it is there because you are still alive. Just as the air fills your lungs, So should God feel your souls. It was God who breathed life into man. Hmmm, I wonder do any of you geniuses see the connection there? The very thing that keeps you alive can not be seen or felt, but you know it is there. Isn't it amazing how we never use up all the air? I mean with over 6 billion people out there using it 24-7, why haven't we shrunk our supply?

yet another display of ignorance . We breathe in and repire using oxygen ,im not going to explain the whole process ,but suffice to say ,it is easy for a child to learn. Plants and trees and all those other gifts from our lord that we destroy and burn usie Carbon Dioxide . Which is if you didnt know ,is what we breathe out. As such we depend on each other . Without this ,we would have either evolved in a differant way or died out.

quote: There is one God and only one God. He created man in His image

another show of conceit and arrognace . Quite the little sinner arent we.

quote: Just like a mother does not turn around and destroy the child she gave birth to

many many would be mother destroy their children its called abortion. Its happens a lot.

quote:

Through his GREAT LOVE

did you even glance at any of my other stuff?

i guess not ,you dont have to be religious to love ,and i believe i love more than you ever could ...

quote: So you see whether or not you believe in God, it will not benefit me at all. You condenm only yourself when you deny God.

that is to say you dont care about any of us? that you are unconcerned with our damnation? And you would accuse us of evil ,you dont even care about us.

quote: For even the great genius Einstein knew that energy can never die, it just changes forms. The smartest mortal man the world ever knew was a believer. He really was a smart man.

what does this prove? clever of you ,but what does it prove?



Your are beyond salvation not us ,i look around and i see beautiful things ,i look around and i love what i see ,i love life ,and as hard as it is i love my other beings even if only because they have the wonder of life in them.

your condescending attitude has destroyed all faith i may have had that christians are good people ,you have sinned numerous times in this post ,go pray forgiveness ,because by the gods ,you need it ....

i have no idea what ive just written ,and i apologize for its length (first time ive ever had to say that ,i can tell you) but this show of stupidity has just pissed me off ,im gonna go cook a micrwave meal ,go to hell.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

This is Shell's Mom.

Gwned.



quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

The smartest mortal man the world ever knew was a believer. He really was a smart man.



Indeed.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Albert Einstein

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

The above post is obscene on so many levels it's funny! Jesus, man, you have your mother post in your stead? At least, she makes more sense than you.

Listen, Mrs Hellz, you obviously have no clue about evolution, astronomy or physics. You can be assured that everything can work perfectly without God. I suppose you have never heard of something called gravity or that plants produce oxygen but that doesn't mean it's a supernatural being that keeps the earth spinning and maintains Earth's atmosphere. Please, if you don't know anything about how nature works, don't use your ignorance to preach about God's greatness. Don't presume you are talking to a bunch of uneducated, immoral brats. Whether you like it or not, morals, kindness, goodness all existed before Jesus and can all exist without God. It is you who is arrogant and intolerant of those who don't have the same beliefs as yourself.

By the way, Einstein would have a good laugh with your post http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Perhaps you need to define the word "evolve" To develop or achieve gradually: evolve a style of one's own.

To work (something) out; devise: “the schemes he evolved to line his purse” (S.J. Perelman).

Biology. To develop (a characteristic) by evolutionary processes.

To give off; emit.

So why did evolution stop ? Why are we not "evolving" now. Any 1st year biology student knows that a single cell organism reproduces the same cell or replicates itself. Anyone who believes in evolution as the beginning to humanity and ALL that is here on this earth,has got to be the most igrorant of all people. Why do you think the "theory of evolution" is no longer taught in school? It is so far fetched that even 1st year freshman can see it is all speculation with NO fact to it at all. You talk alot of gump but you have no actual facts to base what you say on. I am truly sorry that you think this short time span on earth is all you will have. It isn't. Just as energy never cease to exist, neither does the souls of men. You can either learn that in the here in now , or in the the world to come. You will recognize God and Jesus in the end. I just hope for your sakes you do it before death claims the flesh. It is appointed for man to die once.By the way before you hated me they hated Jesus also. Why? Jesus showed them that as a whole we are responsible for each other and the choices we make. Man seems to be on the absurd notion that he is responsible only to himself. You think maybe that is why the earth is deterriating as we sit back keep taking without giving back ? God gave this earth to man, man has destroyed it , just as they destoyed every good thing given to them by God. The minds of men never change do they , even after thousands of years of seeing just how badly he needs God's divine guidiance.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

God gave this earth to man, man has destroyed it , just as they destoyed every good thing given to them by God. The minds of men never change do they , even after thousands of years of seeing just how badly he needs God's divine guidiance.

God may have created everything as you say, but god is suppost to be all knowing & all seeing as well. If he can see the future then he already knew mankind would destroy the earth which he had created, yet he still created the means of it's destruction in the form of mankind. Question is, why? If he did know we would do this, then does he bear any resonsiblity for going ahead with his creation? Also for HS's mum. Why are you posted replies for him/her.

If he/she feels they are being picked on for their beliefs here at totse then why post here at all? Everyone that has posted here has to put up with a certain amount of flak from the other members here. If it hurts his/her feelings to be have his/her faith questioned so much then maybe this isn't the kind of place for your child to be posting them. I'm not flaming him/her mind you just making an observation.

[This message has been edited by Nemisis (edited 07-08-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Perhaps you need to define the word "evolve" To develop or achieve gradually: evolve a style of one's own.

To work (something) out; devise: “the schemes he evolved to line his purse” (S.J. Perelman).

Biology. To develop (a characteristic) by evolutionary processes.

To give off; emit.

So why did evolution stop ? Why are we not "evolving" now. Any 1st year biology student knows that a single cell organism reproduces the same cell or replicates itself. Anyone who believes in evolution as the beginning to humanity and ALL that is here on this earth,has got to be the most igrorant of all people. Why do you think the "theory of evolution" is no longer taught in school? It is so far fetched that even 1st year freshman can see it is all speculation with NO fact to it at all. You talk alot of gump but you have no actual facts to base what you say on. I am truly sorry that you think this short time span on earth is all you will have. It isn't. Just as energy never cease to exist, neither does the souls of men. You can either learn that in the here in now , or in the the world to come. You will recognize God and Jesus in the end. I just hope for your sakes you do it before death claims the flesh. It is appointed for man to die once.By the way before you hated me they hated Jesus also. Why? Jesus showed them that as a whole we are responsible for each other and the choices we make. Man seems to be on the absurd notion that he is responsible only to himself. You think maybe that is why the earth is deterriating as we sit back keep taking without giving back ? God gave this earth to man, man has destroyed it , just as they destoyed every good thing given to them by God. The minds of men never change do they , even after thousands of years of seeing just how badly he needs God's divine guidiance.

Everything evolves, nothing stays the same. Energy constantly changes form, no ? Look you call us ignorant because we have nothing to base our statements on, that is correct, we do have nothing in the end. But do you ? No you do not. Many believers just bring the bible into discussion, and say it is the word of God. How can you prove it is the word of God. How ? Well you can not. Quite frankly, at least you must admit even the slightest possibility that you COULD be wrong, just as we, and every other being on this world could be wrong. Perhaps the one true faith, that would make us all understand the music of the cosmos and knowledge of creation has yet to be revealed to us.

Me, for example, I do not believe any truly loving God would bind us to a religion. I think living your life honestly and virtuously (sp?) would suffice for him.

Because, would God truly be merciful and loving if he/she/it would condemn you to eternal punishment ( mind you that I do not believe in a place like 'Hell', though ), even if you maybe lived better than a christian ? Would that be fair, loving or merciful ? ANSWER ME THIS ( I say this in caps so you would remember what to post in your reply http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) ).

And then, to get back at a previous point, surely you must be acknowledge the slightest possibility, that you could be wrong about your beliefs. Answer me this, too.

Thank you

Authorship isnt important when its the word of god. *LAUGH*

Please be sarcastic...

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Perhaps you need to define the word "evolve" To develop or achieve gradually: evolve a style of one's own.

To work (something) out; devise: “the schemes he evolved to line his purse” (S.J. Perelman).

Biology. To develop (a characteristic) by evolutionary processes.

To give off; emit.

So why did evolution stop ? Why are we not "evolving" now. Any 1st year biology student knows that a single cell organism reproduces the same cell or replicates itself. Anyone who believes in evolution as the beginning to humanity and ALL that is here on this earth,has got to be the most igrorant of all people. Why do you think the "theory of evolution" is no longer taught in school? It is so far fetched that even 1st year freshman can see it is all speculation with NO fact to it at all. You talk alot of gump but you have no actual facts to base what you say on. I am truly sorry that you think this short time span on earth is all you will have. It isn't. Just as energy never cease to exist, neither does the souls of men. You can either learn that in the here in now , or in the the world to come. You will recognize God and Jesus in the end. I just hope for your sakes you do it before death claims the flesh. It is appointed for man to die once.By the way before you hated me they hated Jesus also. Why? Jesus showed them that as a whole we are responsible for each other and the choices we make. Man seems to be on the absurd notion that he is responsible only to himself. You think maybe that is why the earth is deterriating as we sit back keep taking without giving back ? God gave this earth to man, man has destroyed it , just as they destoyed every good thing given to them by God. The minds of men never change do they , even after thousands of years of seeing just how badly he needs God's divine guidiance.

You know, you give a lot of credit to yourself. The truth is that you are stupid. I don't mean that as an insult, it's the logical outcome one sane person can make by reading your post. The fact that I don't agree with you and that I think you're stupid doesn't mean I hate you either. To prove this, I will indulge in trying to enlighten you, much as you do yourself to save me. My sincere thanx by the way.

Evolution never stopped. You obviously have never been a 1st year biology student, otherwise you would know this. You also chose to neglect the word "gradually" in the definition you wrote. It takes time for a species to evolve, far more time for you to observe in your lifetime. So how do we know that it's still going on? Because genetic mutations on which evolution is based are happening all the time and that's a fact. Also please, to avoid being called stupid again, try to read something before writing about it. Evolution is based on sexual reproduction which has nothing to do with how a single cell organism reproduces. I bet your son/daughter is not a complete replication of yourself.

You also seem to confuse "energy" with "soul". The first is an observable and measurable physical quantity, the other is a quite unproven to exist entity that has no link with energy.

As for your apparently very deep worries about how men have strayed from God and all that, let me tell you what I think. When it comes to God, I consider myself an agnostic, meaning I don't know if he exists or not and that I am willing to accept either cases for the right amount of evidence. This is what my intelligence requires, which is a gift of God you seem to ignore. Of course I was born christian, my parents are christian, even though they both are uneducated and too busy making a living to be religious. I have read the Bible and I have formed my own opinion of it, without being influenced by anyone else. I am generally disgusted by the Old Testament as I find it an immoral, racistic, and backwards text, with the only exception of the ten commandments. I find Jesus an amazing philosopher who is probably little understood by those who made him God. It would take volumes to analyze his teachings but my guess is that he would be enranged with christianity as it is today as he was with the merchants inside the temple. His disciples, with the possible exception of John, were uneducated jews that they managed to destroy Jesus's teachings with their old-testament warped minds. I think Peter and Paul's writings are mostly hideous.

I am not trying to convince you of course...maybe just shock you to the realization of the diversity of opinions.

So you see, I don't need to recognize God or Jesus, I know what they stand for (as much as anyone can) and I can accept what I deem positive. I do not let others decide for me, because unlike you, I try to think.

Finally, in the case you presume I'm unhappy, in misery or anything else because of my beliefs, you are sadly mistaken. And I don't worry about going to Hell in the afterlife because I think there's no afterlife and Hell is in this life. "Let the dead bury their dead" said Jesus, and "Only if you are born again you will enter the Kingdom Of Heaven". The dead walk this earth unfortunately and their spiritual resurrection will never come as they expect it in the unexisting afterlife.

QUOTE Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Originally posted by HellzShellz:

It doesn't say they killed them. It says THEY DIED.

QUOTE Originally posted by Sarter:

Read between the lines.

QUOTE Originally posted by HellzShellz:

No, that's called assuming.

And what is believing in a god called?

If you think a god would kill people in a monetary dispute you are crazy. And if you think murder, by a god or otherwise, can be justified then you are one sick puppy.

What is much more likely is that Peter was greedy and killed them both or had one of his goons do it then tried to cover it up / justify himself with this story about divine intervention.

Or it is likely that events described in the story never happened, and was simply fabricated to encourage Peter's followers give him all their money.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Perhaps you need to define the word "evolve" To develop or achieve gradually: evolve a style of one's own.

To work (something) out; devise: “the schemes he evolved to line his purse” (S.J. Perelman).

Biology. To develop (a characteristic) by evolutionary processes.

To give off; emit.

So why did evolution stop ? Why are we not "evolving" now. Any 1st year biology student knows that a single cell organism reproduces the same cell or replicates itself. Anyone who believes in evolution as the beginning to humanity and ALL that is here on this earth,has got to be the most igrorant of all people. Why do you think the "theory of evolution" is no longer taught in school? It is so far fetched that even 1st year freshman can see it is all speculation with NO fact to it at all. You talk alot of gump but you have no actual facts to base what you say on. I am truly sorry that you think this short time span on earth is all you will have. It isn't. Just as energy never cease to exist, neither does the souls of men. You can either learn that in the here in now , or in the the world to come. You will recognize God and Jesus in the end. I just hope for your sakes you do it before death claims the flesh. It is appointed for man to die once.By the way before you hated me they hated Jesus also. Why? Jesus showed them that as a whole we are responsible for each other and the choices we make. Man seems to be on the absurd notion that he is responsible only to himself. You think maybe that is why the earth is deterriating as we sit back keep taking without giving back ? God gave this earth to man, man has destroyed it , just as they destoyed every good thing given to them by God. The minds of men never change do they , even after thousands of years of seeing just how badly he needs God's divine guidiance.

Are you suggesting your "loving" god would condemn me to eternal damnation because ,although i am a good person,i didnt praise him. In all of your writing and indeed many christian teachings over the ages it has seemingly had a theme that you must accept the single god or burn for eternity. I dont understand,i am a good person ,i car for people ,i offer sympathy and empathy. I love life ,i love this existence. Are you telling me that a bad christian who rapes children and abuses people in an appaling fashion will go to heaven because he believes and repents. while I ,who has done nothing that could be considered evil compared to some christians, will go to hell because i refuse to believe in something without some evidence. If so then your God is a capricious and evil creature.

every argument you have given me has made me rebel more and more against god. you may have come here to "save my soul" but you have driven me away. on you head be the burden of my soul. You have given no argument for belief ,you have not even argued faith ,you have merely come on this site to fell superior to us "non-believers". You came here not to save us with love byut to wallow in your own pride ,that you feel that god loves YOU and not those of us who do not worship Him. Please if you are going to address us "Unbelievers in the word of God" at least have some respect and some form of decency when talking to us. I have enough of superior feeling women when i walk the streets ,i dont need it from some ignorant christian comparing energy with souls.

And evoloution is still continuing. Its is documented fact that several species have differant adaptions for their enviroment etc. Now that either means that evoloution is a reality OR god is a very very dull sort of guy to make the same thing over and over again with little changes...

The only true god is yourself,read the bible in that light...

anyhooo ,ive lost my train of thought again ,and i was gonna say soemthing but ive forgot ,but anyhoo ,reply soon i need the entertainment....

Humans aren't evolving anymore.

Christians don't understand evolution

at all - that is how they can deny it.

Most evolution happens in small isolated

poplulations (why transitory fossils

are rare), and there is pressure

to adapt from the environment.

Humans don't evolve because -

1. We are a large poplulation that

covers the planet.

2. Less fit individuals are able

to reproduce.

3. Better adapted individuals don't

produce more offspring.

Evolution is a long process, it doesn't happen overnight.

To say that humans aren't evolving is untrue, though, I think.

(...WTF @ Flood control for 300 seconds now.)

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Evolution is a long process, it doesn't happen overnight.

To say that humans aren't evolving is untrue, though, I think.

(...WTF @ Flood control for 300 seconds now.)



"Evolve - to develop gradually."

If this is what you mean by evolving, then maybe we are.

But to evolve...doesn't that mean into a higher state? If so...I'm not really seeing it right now...

[Maybe I'm living in the wrong 'state'...:P]

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Evolution is a long process, it doesn't happen overnight.

To say that humans aren't evolving is untrue, though, I think.

(...WTF @ Flood control for 300 seconds now.)

Yes evolution is usually a long drawn out process. Except for a virus it seems. Just look at how some of them in a very short time have evolved to a point where anti-biotics are no longer an effective defense against them.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Religions are the teachings of the ignorant. To deny the "word of God" is to be free. If God sends people to hell for not believing in him, then he is truly the greatest fascist of all, and is the most self centered and arrogant creature in all known universe.

But the truth is, there is no God, and if there was, he'd be a faggot.



Great post.

Christianity is stupid.

[This message has been edited by Sanity0verRated (edited 07-08-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

[B]HellzShellz:

One can become a 'good person', even mimic the teachings of Christ without believing in God. If this is the case, then what additional purpose would the belief in God serve to the atheist that lives a compassionate, fulfilling life? Religion is not a requisite to morality or happiness.

Why should I believe, O Enlightened One?



my thoughts exactly. i lead a compassionate, fulfilling life and i'm nothing more than an atheist. i used to believe in god, when i was exposed to it at a young, impressionable age. but once i realized i could think for myself. things started getting better; and soon i'll have a car and the prophecy will be fulfilled BWAHAHAHAHA... heh heh.. inside joke?? xD

btw: hellzshellz is the gayest name ever. and you man are a) in violation of your oh so holy ten commandments. (number 7 or something talkin about false gods or some b.s. i don't have it memorized. don't need to.) and b) you are narrow minded. douche bag.

[This message has been edited by eXo5 (edited 07-08-2005).]

Religion is bullshit: Fact.

I say this based on the idea that everything that exists does exactly that - exist, and as a result of this, anything which exists has to come from somewhere. It has to be created etc. This is a fucking fact which is impossible to argue against. You can try. You can try and name something which wasn't created but you won't succeed because its fucking impossible. Everything comes from somewhere, so just suppose if there actually was a big black lesbian called god who was super powerful and lived on a cloud etc or whatever bullshit people believe, the big black lesbian called god would have to come from somewhere, i.ei he would have to be created by something else. The fact that god had to be created means that it is not all powerful because something before it and subsequently more powerful created it. nI'm waffling and i don't give a fuck because religion is bullshit and in my opinion we'd be a lot better off without it. More people would think for themselves, we'd have less conflicts, less fear and less crap to deal with in general. The reason i refer to the idea of god as a big black lesbian is because all the christian fags believe that god is a white, straight male. Not only do i love contradicting those fucking hippies, i also have an open mind and i odn't see any real argument as to why god couldn't be a big black lesbian.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I'm not the Enlightened one, I'm one of many. Yes, people can do things by the arm of the flesh, but it's always temporary. Things done of God through Faith, to glorify God, isn't temporary.

Actually, the more science tries to disprove God, it ends up explaining God. That's more proof than the evolution theory now being said, 'wrong'.





Science proves fact between fiction. If we didn't understand what things are and how they work, anybody can't make up bullshit they belive in just others to follow. If it contianed to much work people , since there was no proof it was real, wouldn't bother with it. So you ignorant jackasses say to people if they don't belive and follow they will go to hell or a bad place when they die. Which is what got those fuckin eygptin there pyrimids. Makeing people work for them under a false god that won't help them worth shit.

Answer this, if 'god' loves his children. Why wouldn't he show up one time for every to prove hes there (dont say hes there jackass, empty space and air is not god).

And let me get on the war issue if god loves his children. Why does he let the kill each other. For his own enjoyment. No. Cause he can't help. Maybe. Or cause he doesn't exist. Bingo.

To tell you the truth all religions are stupid. They all lead to stupid people. Look at bush for example.

Now if everyone would pull there head out of there ass maybe we would all make this world a better place.



You know how they say the bible was made by god. The first book. Its all bullshit. That was someone back then trying to give people hope to prosper to live a good life. It got them out of slavery. But, now people are using that false inspiration for money and greed when some are actually using it for there church needs. (I've only found one and that was a woman that used it for speakers that blew out at her bible study/church. the rest she uses to get by in life.)

No matter what anyone says none of this will change your mind cause you spent a majority of your life with faith in it and you'll say "If I realize it now then I would have spent my whole life living a lie.

News for ya, no matter what you have done before in your life, the ticket to the future is always open.





[This message has been edited by Lynk (edited 07-08-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by daisycutter:

Religion is bullshit: Fact.

I say this based on the idea that everything that exists does exactly that - exist, and as a result of this, anything which exists has to come from somewhere. It has to be created etc. This is a fucking fact which is impossible to argue against. You can try. You can try and name something which wasn't created but you won't succeed because its fucking impossible. Everything comes from somewhere, so just suppose if there actually was a big black lesbian called god who was super powerful and lived on a cloud etc or whatever bullshit people believe, the big black lesbian called god would have to come from somewhere, i.ei he would have to be created by something else. The fact that god had to be created means that it is not all powerful because something before it and subsequently more powerful created it. nI'm waffling and i don't give a fuck because religion is bullshit and in my opinion we'd be a lot better off without it. More people would think for themselves, we'd have less conflicts, less fear and less crap to deal with in general. The reason i refer to the idea of god as a big black lesbian is because all the christian fags believe that god is a white, straight male. Not only do i love contradicting those fucking hippies, i also have an open mind and i odn't see any real argument as to why god couldn't be a big black lesbian.

That could be a theory yes, but the whole essence of a god revolves around being different and rising above our rules. The deity ( I am deist I don't necessarily(sp?) believe in the catholic god ) I believe in has simply always been. It is not created. It is the source of all things. Something that could have created the complexity of our universe, I don't believe is subjected to our rules. God has always been, is, and will always be. Now I am not saying I believe in an old man sitting on a cloud, it simply is a consciousness, unidentified, but I believe it is there.

'Always been' is a difficult concept to grasp I know. Of course in no way do I imply that I am 100% correct. Your theory of no god has as much chance of being true, we're simply not sure.

But at least you have to admit the possibility that there is a god ?

quote:Originally posted by Sarter:

QUOTE Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Originally posted by HellzShellz:

It doesn't say they killed them. It says THEY DIED.

QUOTE Originally posted by Sarter:

Read between the lines.

QUOTE Originally posted by HellzShellz:

No, that's called assuming.

And what is believing in a god called?

If you think a god would kill people in a monetary dispute you are crazy. And if you think murder, by a god or otherwise, can be justified then you are one sick puppy.

What is much more likely is that Peter was greedy and killed them both or had one of his goons do it then tried to cover it up / justify himself with this story about divine intervention.

Or it is likely that events described in the story never happened, and was simply fabricated to encourage Peter's followers give him all their money.

What you don't understand is I KNOW God is there. I don't believe in God, I KNOW in him. I don't believe my eyes are brown, I know they are.

"If you gave me half a reason, I would tell you what is true, but no matter how you listen, there's nothing I could do, to make you see with more than just your mind until the day you step across the line."

If you'd actually think about it. Really seek the answers, you'd find yourself seeking God. I haven't found one person who isn't seeking God, to be for real. Everyone seeks God, and they don't even know it. God IS love, we seek love because we really seek God. God IS love. You all use the OT and the examples set in the OT to say God is cruel, or what not. That's crap. David, was faithful and his life brought increase. Saul wasn't and he died by his own sword. Jeremiah was, and he lived for God, willing to die for him as well. Enoch was, and he ascended into heaven. Solomon did what God told him not to do, and ended up listening to the influences of the 900 wives he had, and served gods that didn't even exist. After God warned him twice, he still persisted in his ways, his heart was far from God, and it ended up costing him. We learn alot from the OT. The old testament isn't done away with, but it's fulfilled. We learn that God will prick the hearts of man for so long, warning them of their evil doings, that it'll eventually build up a judgement against them. God doesn't build up the judgement, the enemy does, but by unconfessed sin.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

What you don't understand is I KNOW God is there. I don't believe in God, I KNOW in him. I don't believe my eyes are brown, I know they are.

That is a perception ,You may percieve your eyes to be brwon ,however they could in truth be blue or green ,or black. But if you percieve your eyes as being brown then to YOU they are brown ,to me they may be violet and someone else they may be orange, but to YOU they are brown.

It is Your perception that tells you that "god" exists ,that tells you that theres is something divine ,that your eyes are brown. I Know that there is no definite truth ,giving something a name doesnt change what it is,or does it? By naming the wonders around you god are they any differant from what i call nature or existence? Are your perceptions any better than mine? You have your book ,and i have my science . And we could argue about this for eternity and stil the world ,or the universe ,or all of creation itself would go on around us. It would be indiiferant ,and 'spose we came to an agreement ,would it change anything? Truthfully would i be helping anyone? on this computer right now we are contributiong to thedestruction of our world...

I dont know if there is a god and, frankly ,it doesnt matter. There may or may not be a god ,but there is still eternity ,never ending eternity to change perception of god into something else ,and so change Him. Deitys are dependant on there worshippers not the other way round.

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

That is a perception ,You may percieve your eyes to be brwon ,however they could in truth be blue or green ,or black. But if you percieve your eyes as being brown then to YOU they are brown ,to me they may be violet and someone else they may be orange, but to YOU they are brown.

It is Your perception that tells you that "god" exists ,that tells you that theres is something divine ,that your eyes are brown. I Know that there is no definite truth ,giving something a name doesnt change what it is,or does it? By naming the wonders around you god are they any differant from what i call nature or existence? Are your perceptions any better than mine? You have your book ,and i have my science . And we could argue about this for eternity and stil the world ,or the universe ,or all of creation itself would go on around us. It would be indiiferant ,and 'spose we came to an agreement ,would it change anything? Truthfully would i be helping anyone? on this computer right now we are contributiong to thedestruction of our world...

I dont know if there is a god and, frankly ,it doesnt matter. There may or may not be a god ,but there is still eternity ,never ending eternity to change perception of god into something else ,and so change Him. Deitys are dependant on there worshippers not the other way round.

I wonder if anyone will notice...

Jeremiah Chapter 16. (not really all that long, only 21 verses)

Jer 16:1 The word of the LORD came also unto me, saying,

Jer 16:2 Thou shalt not take thee a wife, neither shalt thou have sons or daughters in this place.

Jer 16:3 For thus saith the LORD concerning the sons and concerning the daughters that are born in this place, and concerning their mothers that bare them, and concerning their fathers that begat them in this land;

Jer 16:4 They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

Jer 16:5 For thus saith the LORD, Enter not into the house of mourning, neither go to lament nor bemoan them: for I have taken away my peace from this people, saith the LORD, even lovingkindness and mercies.

Jer 16:6 Both the great and the small shall die in this land: they shall not be buried, neither shall men lament for them, nor cut themselves, nor make themselves bald for them:

Jer 16:7 Neither shall men tear themselves for them in mourning, to comfort them for the dead; neither shall men give them the cup of consolation to drink for their father or for their mother.

Jer 16:8 Thou shalt not also go into the house of feasting, to sit with them to eat and to drink.

Jer 16:9 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will cause to cease out of this place in your eyes, and in your days, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride.

Jer 16:11 Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;

Jer 16:12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:

Jer 16:13 Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that ye know not, neither ye nor your fathers; and there shall ye serve other gods day and night; where I will not shew you favour.

Jer 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

Jer 16:15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Jer 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

Jer 16:17 For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes.

Jer 16:18 And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things.

Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Jer 16:20 Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?

Jer 16:21 Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The LORD.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I wonder if anyone will notice...

Jeremiah Chapter 16. (not really all that long, only 21 verses)

Jer 16:1 The word of the LORD came also unto me, saying,

Jer 16:2 Thou shalt not take thee a wife, neither shalt thou have sons or daughters in this place.

Jer 16:3 For thus saith the LORD concerning the sons and concerning the daughters that are born in this place, and concerning their mothers that bare them, and concerning their fathers that begat them in this land;

Jer 16:4 They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

Jer 16:5 For thus saith the LORD, Enter not into the house of mourning, neither go to lament nor bemoan them: for I have taken away my peace from this people, saith the LORD, even lovingkindness and mercies.

Jer 16:6 Both the great and the small shall die in this land: they shall not be buried, neither shall men lament for them, nor cut themselves, nor make themselves bald for them:

Jer 16:7 Neither shall men tear themselves for them in mourning, to comfort them for the dead; neither shall men give them the cup of consolation to drink for their father or for their mother.

Jer 16:8 Thou shalt not also go into the house of feasting, to sit with them to eat and to drink.

Jer 16:9 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will cause to cease out of this place in your eyes, and in your days, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride.

Jer 16:11 Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;

Jer 16:12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:

Jer 16:13 Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that ye know not, neither ye nor your fathers; and there shall ye serve other gods day and night; where I will not shew you favour.

Jer 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

Jer 16:15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Jer 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

Jer 16:17 For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes.

Jer 16:18 And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things.

Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Jer 16:20 Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?

Jer 16:21 Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The LORD.

So... essentially you're trying to prove there is a god by quoting the so-called word of god ? That's not how you prove something.

quote:Originally posted by Dre Crabbe:

So... essentially you're trying to prove there is a god by quoting the so-called word of god ? That's not how you prove something.

no, that was not what i was doing. but since you brought it up, the Word of God is a proof-- evidence.

This chapter is a prophecy (and if i recall, it is twofold-- part for Judah which, from it's completeness describes the second part.. the "time of the gentiles" and the 'end times').

So if it is a prophecy that is not completely fulfilled, then i dont think it can be used as THE proof...

However, i said, " I wonder if anyone will notice..."

QUOTE Originally posted by HellzShellz:

What you don't understand is I KNOW God is there. I don't believe in God, I KNOW in him. I don't believe my eyes are brown, I know they are.

How could I not understand that you think a god exists? You aren't exactly cryptic about it.

In fact I know why you think a god exists while you do not. You believe a god exists because your parents told you the god exists, and because you parents have a strong influence over you. You were taken to a church every week as a child where you were surrounded by other people who believed a god exists. We are social animals and are very much affected by things like this. Young women are especially sensitive to social pressures. You felt accepted by these people since they treated you well, and took the communal friendship for granted. Then, after your supposed brief stint away from your religion you realized you missed the social bonds and was easily lead back into the warm fuzzy of being part of a community. The idea of having the ultimate life insurance probably helped as well.

Communal relationships are perfectly fine but the hogwash theological baggage that comes with it is not necessary.

"If you gave me half a reason, I would tell you what is true, but no matter how you listen, there's nothing I could do, to make you see with more than just your mind until the day you step across the line."

You are right. Nothing you can say can convince me that the illogical is logic. Interestingly though, all I would have to do to make you convert to athiesm is to get rid of your religious family / community and replace it with a secular one. Eventually the social pressure would overwhelm you, although it would take longer now that you aren't a child.

If you'd actually think about it. Really seek the answers, you'd find yourself seeking God. I haven't found one person who isn't seeking God, to be for real. Everyone seeks God, and they don't even know it. ... blah blah going off on a tangent ...

I think about philosophical questions all the time and I don't seek any god. I never have seeked a god and I never will. I am about as athiest as it gets. Please do not contradict yourself with the delusional belief that it is impossible for 'unbelievers' to even exist.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

no, that was not what i was doing. but since you brought it up, the Word of God is a proof-- evidence.

said, " I wonder if anyone will notice..."

Circular logic cannot be evidence or proof of anything, by definition!

You're using circular logic when you attribute any credibility to the bible, since you're assuming it was inspired by god (in order to have credibility in what it says) yet you're using that to attempt to prove that god exists. You cannot do so.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Circular logic cannot be evidence or proof of anything, by definition!

You're using circular logic when you attribute any credibility to the bible, since you're assuming it was inspired by god (in order to have credibility in what it says) yet you're using that to attempt to prove that god exists. You cannot do so.



If every word of the Bible is true, then it is evidence that what it says about itself is true also.

oh, and no, that is not what i meant by, " I wonder if anyone will notice..."

You can't prove anything it says is true, without first using circular logic!

Prove the following, without the use of circular logic:

1. God exists.

2. God created us.

3. God is benevolent.

4. God is omnipotent.

EDIT: Nothing I said before was address to your "I wonder if anyone will notice" comment.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-10-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You can't prove anything it says is true, without first using circular logic!

Prove the following, without the use of circular logic:

1. God exists.

2. God created us.

3. God is benevolent.

4. God is omnipotent.



Really, I agree with you but prove this

1. God does not exist

... http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Dre Crabbe:



Really, I agree with you but prove this

1. God does not exist

... http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



I can't, that's exactly why I don't go around claiming that he doesn't. Christians do claim that he does. They therefore have a burden of proof, and I don't.

I stopped reading after he spelt natural wrong for the third time.

Ha, this guy got caught in two threads using circular logic.

I'm thinking that if I was him, I'd think of changing my routine or at least taking a long look at what I'm doing.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Circular logic cannot be evidence or proof of anything, by definition!

You're using circular logic when you attribute any credibility to the bible, since you're assuming it was inspired by god (in order to have credibility in what it says) yet you're using that to attempt to prove that god exists. You cannot do so.



If only things like 2nd Tim 3:16 and Heb. 4:12 were used, then yes, that would be circular.

quote:2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Or even Jesus claiming it to be God's Word (Matt 4:1-11), because first, we would have to establish that Jesus (1)existed (2)was Who He claimed to be.

But, if we take the things that are stated in the Bible about history, the world, etc. and check if those are accurate, each that is verified, becomes evidence or "a proof".

one possible example: http://tinyurl.com/dfcnt

The more that is verified, the more evidences that build the case of the truth that the Bible claims.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I wonder if anyone will notice...



Just an interesting aside, since so many claim God's Word to be circular proof of God's Word. And that the Bible cant be used to defend itself.

I left Jer 16 verse 10 out.... here it is:

Jer 16:10 And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what is our iniquity? or what is our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Ha, this guy got caught in two threads using circular logic.

I'm thinking that if I was him, I'd think of changing my routine or at least taking a long look at what I'm doing.

Maybe these links will help you see why i disagree that it is circular:

http://tinyurl.com/bargs http://tinyurl.com/awte7

I hope they help.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I'm tired of hearing people use christians as an excuse to NOT believe. People are humans and they're tempted by their flesh just like anyone else in any way, when they fall into temptation we say, "I knew he wasn't a REAL christians, he's a hypocrite." What makes them hypocrites? Because they aren't the Christ?

Very true.

Human beings are just - human, after all.

Whether they are Christians or not.

As if those critizing are such superb stellar beings...

quote:Originally posted by Apple Domination:



Like Baked goods said, people are not perfect and I fail to see the point why many Christians say "You don't have to be perfect," when technically, believing in Christianity is demanding you to be perfect.

I don't think that's true.

Doing your best is not the same as being perfect. It's striving towards perfection which is required, which makes a lot of difference.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Or even Jesus claiming it to be God's Word (Matt 4:1-11), because first, we would have to establish that Jesus (1)existed (2)was Who He claimed to be.

But, if we take the things that are stated in the Bible about history, the world, etc. and check if those are accurate, each that is verified, becomes evidence or "a proof".

one possible example: http://tinyurl.com/dfcnt

The more that is verified, the more evidences that build the case of the truth that the Bible claims.

Terrible argument xtreeme. That actually refutes Christianity, or anything else for that matter.

If we take your logic as true, then if I write a book about in which I state that George Bush won the 2004 election in the U.S.

that there was a tsunami in December, and that J.F.K. was assassinated (all historically verifiable facts) and then claim that Jesus wasn't the son of god, because god doesn't exist, then you would take that as evidence of god not existing? No. That would make no sense.

The reality is that if we find some historical accounts to be true, then it gains historical credibility. It gains absolutely no credibility in spirituality, theism, or meta-physics or anything else not related to verifiable historical accounts based on material evidence.

So it remains circular logic.

As for your articles (not aimed at me, but they deal with the same subject):

In reply to, http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4306apol_v3n21994.asp#circular

a) Christians do not claim the other sources are inerrant, which means other sources could have been mistaken. Christians cannot accept that possibility, which is exactly where the circular logic begins.

b) Of course it is. I find it funny that funny that the article just states it isn't and flees, not even bothering to explain their terrible logic.

The fact is, if they give ANY infallibility to the bible, then it is circular logic.

c) Axioms are statements/rules taken as true because they are self-evident. The bible being the inspired word of god is very far from self-evident, it isn't even evident by anything. There is absolutely no evidence of it being so!

The other article deals with the same things I refuted above; especially 'c'. If you want me to deal with anything specific, tell me.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Mom those people on Totse are making fun of me again!

Oh what a laugh riot.

Seriously though that had to be one of the saddest displays I've ever seen on Totse. Its a miracle this guy has the balls to show his face after that.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

I actually know more non-deists that accept death than I do deists. Most non-deists accept death as the natural order of things, because they've no God to blame it on (and because it is). If they blame death on God, then, obviously, they're deists and standing on shaky ground, at that.

I think you mean "theists." Deism is something else entirely, and went out of vogue around the turn-of-the century.

What I want to know is how this guy "knows" God. Seriously I hate it when people claim to "know" God exists.

After our last successful try at a christian book store we went a found a new one.

Me: Hi was wondering were your Non-fiction are was.

Lady: Why all of this is non-fiction young man.

Me: Your kiddin right.

Lady: No.

Me: (Laughing...) you chritians are funny.

Exit Shop.

What was even funnier was that she got all red and angry.

quote:Originally posted by BaKeD_gOoDs:

Maybe yall should come over some time and we'll have a hog roast and play dualling banjos. Now where my cousin at?

Yall isn't a word douche. If you have an accent, it doesn't mean you can rewrite a language to fit it, or was that in the bible.

God isn't real to me, because he is fictional. The whole fucking bible is full of metaphors by the way, did you not stop and think that maybe the ideal that is god, was also just a metaphor? What's next, science is the work of the devil to belittle gods miracles. You seem to have a lot of, what's that word, pride in your religion. Say, isn't pride a deadly sin? Do you own anything that you don't need? Thats' greed my friend. You get greedy because you envy others. If you have sex for purposes other than procreation, that's lust. You obviousely spent some time writing this and then probably watched TV and did generally as little as possible since i'm assuming you're on summer break. That would be sloth. All this sitting around makes fat too which is also a sin. And now that i've pointed out how stupid and impossible it would be to function in society without sinning your face off, you're probably getting annoyed and angry. That's all seven sins that you are guilty of for being human. I'm completely open minded, but i'm not going to except a load of bullshit just because i can't disprove what you can't prove. Burden of proof lies on the shoulders who make the claim, not those who refute it. Did you know that the higher level of education that one receives, the more likely they are not to believe in god. I wonder why?

Amen

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HellzShellz:

[B]I understand yalls unbelief, but it's narrow-minded. It's selfish to think you're the top of the chain. It's ignorant to say the only truth is what you can see with the natrual senses. You can't understand supernatrual with a natrual mind. God is Supernatrual.......

Yes god is supernatural and all that.

But define evil. I have faith in god but nobody except god himself can judge weather someone is worthy or not....

... n'Kay

God is just a primitive explanation for things that are not fully understood, and a primitive reason to be nice.

Now we have watered down versions due to greater scientific understanding. Old religions had God's of the sun, the moon etc. Now we understand it's a huge ball of gas. Once we discover the meaning of life there'll be no reason for God whatsoever.

quote:Once we discover the meaning of life there'll be no reason for God whatsoever.

you mean it isn't 42??!

This arguement can go on forever, there is no way to prove there is a God, there is no way to prove there isn't, at least now, but I guess keeping the topic alive in the world will help in discovering new fact's.Has anyone here read "Angels and Demons" by Dan Brown?

quote:Originally posted by thats just not cricket:

God is just a primitive explanation for things that are not fully understood, and a primitive reason to be nice.

Now we have watered down versions due to greater scientific understanding. Old religions had God's of the sun, the moon etc. Now we understand it's a huge ball of gas. Once we discover the meaning of life there'll be no reason for God whatsoever.

As far as i can recall, the Bible does not give the meaning of life. And i highly doubt if ANYONE, EVER will discover the meaning of life by any means, without God directly explaining the meaning.



From The Genesis Record by Henry Morris... i'm going to bold one part because after i want to make a small comment about it. Except for this bolding, all emphasis is in the original.

"It is remarkable that, when there have been so many anti-theistic philosophies (ancient and modern) affecting untold millions of people, the book of God makes no attempt to prove that God exists. The opening verse of Genesis simply takes this fact for granted, as though it were so obvious that only a fool could say 'there is no God' (Psalm 14:1).

That this fact is not obvious, however, is obvious in light of the contrary fact that [/b]only in the Bible[/i] does such a revelation appear. That is, all of the other acient religious books and religious systems, as well as all modern philosophies, begin, not with God, but with preexisting matter or energy in some form. In the primevel chaos (of wter or fire or whatever), the forces of nature (or the gods and goddesses personifying them) then begin to bring about the cosmic changes which developed the world into its present form.

In spite of the universal prevalance ot such pantheistic evelutionary cosmogonies among the nations of antiquity, the inspired account in Genesis does not attempt to refute them or to prove the existence of the true

God. The reason for this strange silence is, most likely, the fact that the Genesis account was written before any of these other systems developed. The others were developed later for the very purpose of combating and replacing the true account in Genesis. The latter had been written originally, possibly by God Himself ("the generations of the heavens and the earth") soon after the Creation, setting forth in simple narrative form the actual events of Creation Week. At that point in time, there was no need to argue about the reality of God and the Creation, since no one doubted it!"

("the generations of the heavens and the earth")...this is from Gen 2:4

OK, i chose not to bold, because i realized that my comment applies to the whole thing.

Morris' statement reflects the starting point that the Bible is literal truth. From this perspective (and Adam and Eve being the very first two people), all other religions and beginning accounts must have happened after. Earlier in his book, Morris makes this (starting) point known.

A little later in his book, he points out that "Not only does the first verse of the Bible speak of the creation of space (shamayim) and matter (erets), but also notes the beginning of time (bereshith)"

Pretty amazing that about 6000 years ago, someone came up with space-time-matter concept!! And that each of these are dependent of the others.

QUOTE Originally posted by Rust:

If we take your logic as true, then if I write a book about in which I state that George Bush won the 2004 election in the U.S.

that there was a tsunami in December, and that J.F.K. was assassinated (all historically verifiable facts) and then claim that Jesus wasn't the son of god, because god doesn't exist, then you would take that as evidence of god not existing? No. That would make no sense.

If, along with "historically verifiable facts" you also included prophecies that became "historically verifiable" your book would be evidence of itself. (one example would be "when Isreal becomes a nation again"~~ paraphased and i dont recall the Book/Chapter/Verse..but it is obvious that it was written prior to 1947-49(?) and did happen)

The reality is that if we find some b]historical/b] accounts to be true, then it gains b]historical/b] credibility. It gains absolutely no credibility in spirituality, theism, or meta-physics or anything else not related to verifiable historical accounts based on material evidence.

What i said earlier, still stands:

"If every word of the Bible is true, then it is evidence that what it says about itself is true also."

As far as i can recall, all philosophies of origin have a starting point.. a priori. Which, from this, it seems as though all is circular. Correct me if i'm wrong on this (and i know that you will http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) )

As for your articles (not aimed at me, but they deal with the same subject):

no problem. most of the time, i dont mind if someone else addresses things that are not aimed specifically at them. in some cases, i am trying to answer one person specifically. in those cases, it does make it more difficult or gets me sidetracked.. but i dont remember making a big deal about it.. maybe i have but oh well.

Atleast when you answer something not addressed at you, you usually (if not always) stay right on topic. I thank you for that.

Right now, i am having a difficult time understanding the things you say about the link, compared to how i understand what Sarfati is saying. Since i cant ask Sarfati to explain his points better, would you expand yours for me? I guess i could e-mail him, but it is easier (and quicker) to ask you about yours (atleast for now).

In reply to, http:/ /www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4306apol_v3n21994.asp#circular (http: //www.answ ersingenes is.org/doc s2/4306apo l_v3n21994 .asp#circu lar)

a) Christians do not claim the other sources are inerrant, which means other sources could have been mistaken. Christians cannot accept that possibility, which is exactly where the circular logic begins.

b) Of course it is. I find it funny that funny that the article just states it isn't and flees, not even bothering to explain their terrible logic.

The fact is, if they give ANY infallibility to the bible, then it is circular logic.

c) Axioms are statements/rules taken as true because they are self-evident. The bible being the inspired word of god is very far from self-evident, it isn't even evident by anything. There is absolutely no evidence of it being so!

The other article deals with the same things I refuted above; especially 'c'. If you want me to deal with anything specific, tell me.[/B][/QUOTE]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



If, along with "historically verifiable facts" you also included prophecies that became "historically verifiable" your book would be evidence of itself. (one example would be "when Isreal becomes a nation again"~~ paraphased and i dont recall the Book/Chapter/Verse..but it is obvious that it was written prior to 1947-49(?) and did happen)

It happened because the Jews made it happened not because god did.

It's a terrible argument.

If I also write in the book that my dog will be killed by a mob of people, and then my fans of the book carry out that, does that mean it's evidence that god doesn't exist? No. It's a prophecy "fulfilled" by the readers of the book, not by some magical being. That's serves as absolutely no evidence for the illogical and mystical existence of the Christian god.

Again, this is a terrible argument. I can't even believe you would use it since it undoubtedly refutes the bible. I suggest you think twice before using it.

quote:

What i said earlier, still stands:

"If every word of the Bible is true, then it is evidence that what it says about itself is true also."



That doesn't stand at all!

1. Not everything in the bible is true.

2. In fact, there are things which are false.

Pi = 3 being one of them. The earth not being round being another.



3. It gains absolutely no credibility in mysticism for it's historical accounts.

If it predicts a historical occurrence (which was only fulfilled because the readers of the book wanted to fulfill it http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) ) then that gives it no credibility in mysticism.



quote:

As far as i can recall, all philosophies of origin have a starting point.. a priori. Which, from this, it seems as though all is circular. Correct me if i'm wrong on this (and i know that you will http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) )



"Priori" in this case doesn't mean a beginning, but a piece of knowledge that is taken as true only because it's self-evident; also known as an axiom. Christianity doesn't begin with an axiom because nothing in it is self-evident.

quote:

Right now, i am having a difficult time understanding the things you say about the link, compared to how i understand what Sarfati is saying. Since i cant ask Sarfati to explain his points better, would you expand yours for me? I guess i could e-mail him, but it is easier (and quicker) to ask you about yours (atleast for now).



I'm not basing myself on what Sarith said or didn't say. I'm basing myself only on what I read in the article, and how it was wrong.

I'm dealing specifically with points a, b and c, (which your link redirects too automatically); points which deal with the circular logic in the bible.

In a, you article states that there are non-biblical sources that support the bible being inerrant. That's moot since those non-biblical sources aren't inerrant! You cannot give inerrancy to the bible, from an errant source!

In b, the article claims that it is not circular logic to use one book, to prove another. It is. If you give infallibility to one book (in order to prove the other) then you ARE committing circular logic, there is no escaping that.

In c, the article claims this is an axiom. It is not. An axiom is self-evident. The bible being the inspired word of god is not self-evident. It's not even evident!



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-19-2005).]

what rust said

QUOTE Originally posted by Rust:

It happened because the Jews made it happened not because god did.

First, that is speculation. Second, as far as i can remember without looking it up, the prophecy does not say who does it...just that it would happen. And i believe it was a NT prophecy (it might not be.. i'm short on time right now..cant look it up and i dont recall where it is for sure), so the Jews making it happen is irrelevant.

It's a terrible argument.

If I also write in the book that my dog will be killed by a mob of people, and then my fans of the book carry out that, does that mean it's evidence that god doesn't exist? No. It's a prophecy "fulfilled" by the readers of the book, not by some magical being.

And right now, we are only talking about one prophecy. The prophecy that was posted as an example was used because that prophecy was not fulfilled before it was written, as some people claim about prophecies. And true, your dog prophecy would also fit that as well. And if i'm right about it being NT prophecy, then that all but rules out self-fulfilled (by the Jews).

Again, this is a terrible argument. I can't even believe you would use it since it undoubtedly refutes the bible. I suggest you think twice before using it.

Thanks, i'll take your advice into consideration.

That doesn't stand at all!

1. Not everything in the bible is true.

2. In fact, there are things which are false.

Pi = 3 being one of them. The earth not being round being another.



3. It gains absolutely no credibility in mysticism for it's historical accounts.

1. you cover in #2

2. The Bible does not say that Pi equals 3 (we've discussed this. You said that it was refuted. I say it is disputed. You did not disprove it, but argued against it).

The Bible does not say that the earth is not round either.

3. I have to let this slide for now, since you are not convinced of 1. and 2.

If it predicts a historical occurrence (which was only fulfilled because the readers of the book wanted to fulfill it ) then that gives it no credibility in mysticism.

I see your point, but you have nothing that i know of, that points to the Jews or any other believers completing this prophecy just have it fulfilled. And that does not mean that God had not foreseen it and inspired someone to write of it (in advance). And if i recall the prophecy, it had something to do with the beginning of the end-times. When i have more time, i'll try to find the reference.



"Priori" in this case doesn't mean a beginning, but a piece of knowledge that is taken as true only because it's self-evident; also known as an axiom. Christianity doesn't begin with an axiom because nothing in it is self-evident.

Thanks. Your right. Just for the record though, i did not mean that 'priori' meant beginning. I just meant that all philosophies have a starting point that is used as a given (whether self-evident or not). In the case of Christianity and Judeaism, that starting point is Gen 1:1.

So, from that, yes, i have been using circular, because I cant prove that "In the beginning God...".

I guess i have to concede on this...for now.

I'm not basing myself on what Sarith said or didn't say.

I didnt say 'Sarith', but 'Sarfati'.. the author of the article.

In a, you article states that there is non-biblical sources that Jesus claimed the bible would be inerrant. That's moot since those non-biblical sources aren't inerrant! You cannot give inerrancy to the bible, from an errant source!

I see what you mean here, but i disagree that the article states that there are non-biblical sources about the claims of Jesus. I think what it is saying is that there are liberals that agree that [Jesus claimed and agreed with Biblical inerrancy] as depicted in the Bible. In other words, they are not saying that Jesus was using the Bible metaphorically, but literally.

In b, the article claims that it is not circular logic to use one book, to prove another. It is. If you give infallibility to one book (in order to prove the other) then you ARE committing circular logic, there is no escaping that.

No, i dont think that was the articles intent. I think it was used to back up the previous point. (which, as i look at it now, i think it was an underhanded move on the authors part). By any chance did you klik on the links for those verses? The first one was reguarding using Matthew 19:3–6, to prove/cf. Gen. 1:27, 2:4), not the other way around. In other words, Jesus quoted Genesis... it proves/verifies that that is what was quoted, it does not prove/verify that Jesus actually said anything. (i didnt check the other verses, but i suspect it would be along the same lines). If the authors intention was to prove that it isnt circular, then he did, but not from an honesty perspective (it's getting late, so i am assuming that he was dishonest on purpose, to win the arguement... there is the possibility that it was unintentional, and he actually sees it that way.. but, like i said, it;s getting late.. gotta try to finish up quick)

In c, the article claims this is an axiom. It is not. An axiom is self-evident. The bible being the inspired word of god is not self-evident. It's not even evident!

Not quite. The article claims that it is their axiom. quote:Answers in Genesis accepts the authority of Scripture as an axiom or presupposition: i.e. as a starting point or assumption that requires no proof, and is the basis for all reasoning.

You're right, one definition of 'axiom' is self-evident, but it also means recieved principle. And from the Christian perspective, that principle is recieved from God (the Holy Spirit, to be accurate). I think that is why the Decl. of Indep. uses the words, "we hold these truths to be self-evident".

Like i said, i think i have to concede for now, on saying that it is not circular. I'm not saying that i wont use what is called circular, i'm just going to **shrug** and not argue the defence (for now).

Have a good night, Rust. (or whatever it is when you read this)

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



First, that is speculation. Second, as far as i can remember without looking it up, the prophecy does not say who does it...just that it would happen. And i believe it was a NT prophecy (it might not be.. i'm short on time right now..cant look it up and i dont recall where it is for sure), so the Jews making it happen is irrelevant.



Wrong.

1. It's not speculation. The Jews, with help from the UN created modern Israel.

Now yes, you may say that I can't prove that they did so just to fulfill the prophecy. You're right. But even if they didn't do so, you still have a "prophecy" being fulfilled by man. That doesn't imply any divine intervention, and moreover, it doesn't give any credibility to the book.

2. It's certainly not irrelevant. It shows how there is no divine intervention, just the work of man, just like my book.



quote:

And right now, we are only talking about one prophecy. The prophecy that was posted as an example was used because that prophecy was not fulfilled before it was written, as some people claim about prophecies. And true, your dog prophecy would also fit that as well. And if i'm right about it being NT prophecy, then that all but rules out self-fulfilled (by the Jews).



So my prophecy would prove that god doesn't exist? Great.

So now either there is no credibility given by those "prophecies" or Christianity is refuted.

quote:

1. you cover in #2

2. The Bible does not say that Pi equals 3 (we've discussed this. You said that it was refuted. I say it is disputed. You did not disprove it, but argued against it).

The Bible does not say that the earth is not round either.

3. I have to let this slide for now, since you are not convinced of 1. and 2.



I don't know were you got that from but I never argued that it didn't say it was pi was three. It DOES say pi is three.

"He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it."

1 Ki 7:23 NIV

If I remember correctly, all your explanations for this failed. They relied on gymnastics, claiming that if we use numerology, then one could see a ration similar than that of pi... ignoring of course that it still explicitly states three, and that there was a higher than 0% margin of error. So either it is wrong for stating three, or wrong for not stating pi correctly.

In either case, the bible is completely and utterly wrong.

As for stating the Earth is flat:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_flat.htm

quote:

I see your point, but you have nothing that i know of, that points to the Jews or any other believers completing this prophecy just have it fulfilled. And that does not mean that God had not foreseen it and inspired someone to write of it (in advance). And if i recall the prophecy, it had something to do with the beginning of the end-times. When i have more time, i'll try to find the reference.



Even if the Jews weren't re-establishing Israel to fulfill the prophecy, you still have a prophecy that was fulfilled by man!

Now you may claim that god was behind that... and that would be circular logic then! Again, there is no escaping the circular logic of Christianity.



quote:

I didnt say 'Sarith', but 'Sarfati'.. the author of the article.



http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:

I see what you mean here, but i disagree that the article states that there are non-biblical sources about the claims of Jesus. I think what it is saying is that there are liberals that agree that [Jesus claimed and agreed with Biblical inerrancy] as depicted in the Bible. In other words, they are not saying that Jesus was using the Bible metaphorically, but literally.

The "liberals" are the sources. They are basing themselves on what the "liberals" claim. So what if "liberals" agree with that? "Liberals" are errant!

quote:

No, i dont think that was the articles intent. I think it was used to back up the previous point. (which, as i look at it now, i think it was an underhanded move on the authors part). By any chance did you klik on the links for those verses? The first one was reguarding using Matthew 19:3–6, to prove/cf. Gen. 1:27, 2:4), not the other way around. In other words, Jesus quoted Genesis... it proves/verifies that that is what was quoted, it does not prove/verify that Jesus actually said anything. (i didnt check the other verses, but i suspect it would be along the same lines). If the authors intention was to prove that it isnt circular, then he did, but not from an honesty perspective (it's getting late, so i am assuming that he was dishonest on purpose, to win the arguement... there is the possibility that it was unintentional, and he actually sees it that way.. but, like i said, it;s getting late.. gotta try to finish up quick)



I did not look up the verses, but it is still circular logic none the less. To give any validity to Mathew (and thus to prove that Jesus did in fact quote Genesis) then he MUST use circular logic. The point still stands.

quote:

Not quite. The article claims that it is their axiom. You're right, one definition of 'axiom' is self-evident, but it also means recieved principle. And from the Christian perspective, that principle is recieved from God (the Holy Spirit, to be accurate). I think that is why the Decl. of Indep. uses the words, "we hold these truths to be self-evident".

Who's it is, is irrelevant. The important factor is that it is not self-evident, and thus still circular logic.

Hell, if it means "received principle"... then who did the sending? God? That's circular logic right there!

Now yes, "axiom" has different definitions, but the only one which breaks circular logic is "a self-evident piece of knowledge". And that is not self-evident.

quote:Have a good night, Rust. (or whatever it is when you read this)

Thank you. Have a good night as well.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-20-2005).]

as a Christian ill agree with HellzShellz its so true

quote:Originally posted by person:

As an ignorant, blind, god worshipper, I'll agree with HellzShellz. Mainly because it's impossible for me to disagree due to my strict christian upbringing, but also partly because I'm too lazy to read the rest of the posts (which totally pwn the concept of "God")

Yes, I agree that you're stupid, person.



quote: Originally posted by Snoopy:

Religions are the teachings of the ignorant. To deny the "word of God" is to be free. If God sends people to hell for not believing in him, then he is truly the greatest fascist of all, and is the most self centered and arrogant creature in all known universe.

But the truth is, there is no God, and if there was, he'd be a faggot.

Very well said.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Actually, the more science tries to disprove God, it ends up explaining God. That's more proof than the evolution theory now being said, 'wrong'.

Huh? I'm still waiting on an explanation of this. Either you didn't read it, or you're avoiding it because you have no proof. And if you have no proof, then you're just believing something that's baseless (much like many religious people I know, following something unquestionably).

The more we learn about how nature works, the more questions we have in both directions: for and against a creator. It really just depends on who you listen to. But I certainly don't hear scientists going around saying, "Oh, well this proves that some magician in the sky created us."

[This message has been edited by devil's haircut (edited 07-20-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by maraschinoo:

HAIL SATAN!!!!!

i think he has a point

wheres my gun gone

Your calling us narrow minded because we question authority?

You sir,are a retard.

QUOTE Originally posted by Rust:

First, i want to appologize. I've been looking for the verse and can not find it. I dont recall the exact words, so the reason might be that the words i used for searching the bible disc are the wrong ones. It is also possible that i remember from a commemtary or book. (i'm positive it was in one of the 4 Gospels...Matthew rings a bell, so i'll have to reread that book)

For right now, if it's alright with you, we can consider the example as hypothetical, just like your dead dog book (I'm assuming that was hypothetical).

I will keep looking for the verse or reference though, because i would like to review it for myself, if nothing else. If i find it, i will let you know.

1. It's not speculation. The Jews, with help from the UN created modern Israel.

However, your statement "It happened because the Jews made it happened not because god did." is spectulating that God had nothing to do with it.

Now yes, you may say that I can't prove that they did so just to fulfill the prophecy. You're right. But even if they didn't do so, you still have a "prophecy" being fulfilled by man. That doesn't imply any divine intervention, and moreover, it doesn't give any credibility to the book.

A prophecy is a foretelling of what is to come. The divine intervention implied, is from the prophecy itself and the fulfillment, but not necessarily who fulfilled it (ultimately God... but that goes back to the omniscience debate.. and which, i have said that i believe that our free-will is very limited-- just the choice to believe and be saved, or to disbelieve).

2. It's certainly not irrelevant. It shows how there is no divine intervention, just the work of man, just like my book.

Sure it is. If it is prophesied and fulfilled, then it gives a possibilty of one of three things:

1. Divinely inspired prophecy

2. a lucky guess

3. self-fulfilled

and #1 and #3 could still have been orchestrated by God.

So my prophecy would prove that god doesn't exist? Great.

nice try. The similarity that i was pointing out, was that both prophecies were written prior to the fulfillment. Both prophecies are still open to one of those 3 possibilities (Divinely inspired prophecy, a lucky guess, or self-fulfilled). And also leaves the orchestration unanswered.

So now either there is no credibility given by those "prophecies" or Christianity is refuted.

Neither. They are still both open. I'm sorry that i havent been able to explain myself better.

I don't know were you got that from but I never argued that it didn't say it was pi was three. It DOES say pi is three.

I did not say that you said it is not 3. I said that the Bible does not say it is three.

"He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it."

1 Ki 7:23 NIV

Yes, in english.

If I remember correctly, all your explanations for this failed. They relied on gymnastics, claiming that if we use numerology, then one could see a ration similar than that of pi... ignoring of course that it still explicitly states three, and that there was a higher than 0% margin of error. So either it is wrong for stating three, or wrong for not stating pi correctly.

As for the "gymnastics" of "numerology"; would you consider it fair if it were re-posted, and we ask a few of the Hebrew speaking/reading members if they think that it is a possible, valid interpretation? Also maybe Jackketch might have some valid input?

As for stating the Earth is flat: http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_flat.htm



i havent had a chance to read these. i've been busy, and last night i was talking to a friend, and then watch a movie with Annie (my wife). This post is on the second day of writing already, so i'm going to try to finish up some of it tonight and get to bed.. Am supposed to start work an hour earlier tomorrow (dont have to, but it is suggested).

Even if the Jews weren't re-establishing Israel to fulfill the prophecy, you still have a prophecy that was fulfilled by man!

It does not matter (earthly speaking), who fulfilled the prophecy, as long as it was fulfilled. And like i said, in this case it is doubtful that it was self-fulfilled (if the prophecy is NT- because it would be countering their own claim against Jesus)

Hell, if it means "received principle"... then who did the sending? God? That's circular logic right there!

That would be the purpose of the hundreds of prophecies (fulfilled) in the Bible; to show Who is doing the sending.

That is all i can work on for tonight.

I do pray that someday you will be able to see the Truth, and become Saved.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



First, i want to appologize. I've been looking for the verse and can not find it. I dont recall the exact words, so the reason might be that the words i used for searching the bible disc are the wrong ones. It is also possible that i remember from a commemtary or book. (i'm positive it was in one of the 4 Gospels...Matthew rings a bell, so i'll have to reread that book)

For right now, if it's alright with you, we can consider the example as hypothetical, just like your dead dog book (I'm assuming that was hypothetical).

I will keep looking for the verse or reference though, because i would like to review it for myself, if nothing else. If i find it, i will let you know.



No problem. I do agree the bible speaks of the re-establishment of Israel (in numerous statements actually). I do not deny this, so you can freely refer to that. What I don't agree with is it's alleged divine origins.

quote:

However, your statement "It happened because the Jews made it happened not because god did." is spectulating that God had nothing to do with it.



Yes. I'm basing myself on the only piece of knowledge we have, and not circular logic.



quote:

A prophecy is a foretelling of what is to come. The divine intervention implied, is from the prophecy itself and the fulfillment, but not necessarily who fulfilled it (ultimately God... but that goes back to the omniscience debate.. and which, i have said that i believe that our free-will is very limited-- just the choice to believe and be saved, or to disbelieve).

DIVINE intervension is most certainly not impled at all. If the prophecy in my book is fulfilled there is nothing divine.

quote:

Sure it is. If it is prophesied and fulfilled, then it gives a possibilty of one of three things:

1. Divinely inspired prophecy

2. a lucky guess

3. self-fulfilled

and #1 and #3 could still have been orchestrated by God.



That's still not irrelevant, if it were irrelevant, it couldn't then be circular logic, which they could. If you say that #1 or #3 the result of god, then that's circular logic.

quote:

[b]

nice try. The similarity that i was pointing out, was that both prophecies were written prior to the fulfillment. Both prophecies are still open to one of those 3 possibilities (Divinely inspired prophecy, a lucky guess, or self-fulfilled). And also leaves the orchestration unanswered.



That's the whole point of the debate. The claim that the bible is #1. You can't conviniently claim that the bible is, without a doubt, #1 while still claiming that mine could be either 1, 2 or 3.

The fact is that the bible could very well be 1, 2 or 3, and that if you choose 1 or 3 to mean that it happened because of god, then that is circular logic. If it's 2 then it's gives it no credibility! And really, number 3 without any divine intervention is either number 2, or one directly fulfilling that prophecy himself, which then wouldn't be any credible would it?

quote:

Neither. They are still both open. I'm sorry that i havent been able to explain myself better.



Wrong. See above. You and Christianity claim that the bible is a case of number 1. That's circular logic. If you claim that my example could be evidence of god not existing (which you must admit, it COULD be) then the bible remains refuted, since to prove that the bible was a case of number 1 is circular logic!

quote:

I did not say that you said it is not 3. I said that the Bible does not say it is three.



My mistake, I assume you meant that I had when you said "we've discussed this. You said that it was refuted."

quote:

Yes, in english.



Care to give me the Hewbrew translation?

quote:

As for the "gymnastics" of "numerology"; would you consider it fair if it were re-posted, and we ask a few of the Hebrew speaking/reading members if they think that it is a possible, valid interpretation? Also maybe Jackketch might have some valid input?



Sure. I'm comfident that the margin of error will be higher than 0% which alone refutes the bible as inerrant.

quote:havent had a chance to read these. i've been busy, and last night i was talking to a friend, and then watch a movie with Annie (my wife). This post is on the second day of writing already, so i'm going to try to finish up some of it tonight and get to bed.. Am supposed to start work an hour earlier tomorrow (dont have to, but it is suggested).

Take your time. You didn't even have to give this reply. You could have waited. I don't mind as long as the thread doesn't get deleted from inactivity.

quote:It does not matter (earthly speaking), who fulfilled the prophecy, as long as it was fulfilled. And like i said, in this case it is doubtful that it was self-fulfilled (if the prophecy is NT- because it would be countering their own claim against Jesus)

It matters because if there is no evidence of divine intervention, then it automatically is circular logic to claim that it was, because the bible says so.

quote:

That would be the purpose of the hundreds of prophecies (fulfilled) in the Bible; to show Who is doing the sending.



That's circular logic exactly! If you claim it is a case of 1 then you must prove that it isn't a case of number 2. To do so, you must use circular logic. There is no escaping this.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-22-2005).]

Oh, not that this has anything to do with anything, but I believe Hellz is a girl. I just saw lots of people referring to her as 'he'. Carry on.

These links show the passages of the Koran that encourage muslims to commit acts of terror:

http://nowscape.com/islam/koran_sura.htm http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/terrorist2.html http://www.angelfire.com/moon/yoelnatan/koranwarpassages.htm

quote:Originally posted by buttthrax:

These links show the passages of the Koran that encourage muslims to commit acts of terror:

http ://nowscap e.com/isla m/koran_su ra.htm (http: //nowscape .com/islam /koran_sur a.htm) http://w ww.flex.co m/~jai/satyamevajayate/terrorist2.html (http: //www.flex .com/~jai/ satyamevaj ayate/terr orist2.htm l) http ://www.ang elfire.com/moon/yoelnatan/koranwarpassages.htm (http: //www.ange lfire.com/ moon/yoeln atan/koran warpassage s.htm)

Whats that gotta do with anything?

Rust,

I'm not sure how you tend to respond to longer posts (point by point.. addressing each as you read, or composing most of your answers in your head.. or on a notebook... and then typing your reply and fine tuning as you go along), but just to save you some effort.. if you read the whole post, i think you'll notice that at the end will be the only thing that you might want to reply to. The rest is just minor stuff that might explain my thoughts better to you.



QUOTE Originally posted by Rust:

No problem. I do agree the bible speaks of the re-establishment of Israel (in numerous statements actually). I do not deny this, so you can freely refer to that. What I don't agree with is it's alleged divine origins.

Thanks. I'll keep looking though; it is bothering me that i can't find it (though i havent looked since my last post)

quote:DIVINE intervension is most certainly not impled at all. If the prophecy in my book is fulfilled there is nothing divine.

quote:That's still not irrelevant, if it were irrelevant, it couldn't then be circular logic, which they could. If you say that #1 or #3 the result of god, then that's circular logic.

I'm just condensing here; i think that i'll put my response at the end... not sure right now. (And i havent decided if i'll leave this in or take it out when i'm done. I'll probably leave it in, then you'll know that it was intentional).

That's the whole point of the debate. The claim that the bible is #1. You can't conviniently claim that the bible is, without a doubt, #1 while still claiming that mine could be either 1, 2 or 3.

Actually, in that statement, i was saying that both your 'dog prophecy' and the Bible fit into those possibilities. I did not claim (in that statement) that one prophecy had less or more possibilities than the other.

The fact is that the bible could very well be 1, 2 or 3, and that if you choose 1 or 3 to mean that it happened because of god, then that is circular logic. If it's 2 then it's gives it no credibility!

I agree with you here. And that is essentially what i was saying.

And really, number 3 without any divine intervention is either number 2, or one directly fulfilling that prophecy himself, which then wouldn't be any credible would it?

Again, essentially the same as what i said.. cool, for a change you and i are understanding each other.

Yes, #3 could fit into a type of #2. Which is why i said, "...#3 could still have been orchestrated by God."

It is also the reason that i said, "but not necessarily who fulfilled it (ultimately God... but that goes back to the omniscience debate.. and which, i have said that i believe that our free-will is very limited-- just the choice to believe and be saved, or to disbelieve)."



quote:

Neither. They are still both open. I'm sorry that i havent been able to explain myself better.

quote:Wrong. See above. You and Christianity claim that the bible is a case of number 1. That's circular logic. If you claim that my example could be evidence of god not existing (which you must admit, it COULD be) then the bible remains refuted, since to prove that the bible was a case of number 1 is circular logic!

I'm doing more housekeeping/condensing here. But i just want to point out that (and keep in mind my opening paragraph)...

If you claim that my example could be evidence of god not existing (which you must admit, it COULD be) then the bible remains refuted,

Yes, i would have to admit that it COULD be; just as much as you would have to admit that the Bible COULD be evidence of His existance. And as long as both "COULD be's" are possible, then the Bible is not refuted. (Again, i urge you to keep in mind my opening paragraph).

<<<< i cut out the "Pi in the Bible" parts because i'm going to try to post it in a Thread of itself.

Do you have AIM? I think it would only be fair to try to make this a joint thread (such as "posted by both of us...pros and cons").

I'm not sure how it will work, but i think it may be fun and interesting.. if not that, than maybe atleast a novel approach in TOTSE)

quote:That's circular logic exactly! If you claim it is a case of 1 then you must prove that it isn't a case of number 2. To do so, you must use circular logic. There is no escaping this.

Housekeeping/condensing.



OK, drumroll......

Even though i havent had much time to respond to hardly anything lately (or for that matter, do hardly anything..oh well), i have given your points alot of thought on the road... ways to show you that it is not circular, etc. Yesterday (Saturday) i tried pouring through my books and searching Christian sites, looking for something that might help. I came across a Q & A that helped me remember some things that i have said in the past on Totse. The Q & A is not directly the same as what our discussion has been, but like i said, "it reminded me of things i had said" and it is consistent. I'll just quote part of the answer, and then comment.

quote:The books of the Bible are not God's Word because someone selected them, but because God gave them by inspiration of the Spirit. No human authority or arguments can demonstrate this to you. The only "proof" is that the Holy Spirit uses the Law of God revealed in the Bible to convict us of our sin and uses the Gospel to convince us that Christ is the Savior from sin. We do not believe that Christ is our Savior because rational arguments have convinced us the Bible is God's Word, but because the Holy Spirit has used the Bible to give us faith in Christ, we are convinced it's God's Word.

What i had said in the past, is that no human can convince another of God, that is the job of the Holy Spirit. I also said that the first verse of the Book of Genesis is the most difficult verse in the whole Bible. (In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.) All things in the Bible, rest on this verse.

I've also said in the past, that from an outside POV, it is circular. But from a believer POV, it is not circular but rather a straight line.

Now, to combine what that Q & A says, to what i have said:

It is the Holy Spirit that reveals the "self-evident piece of knowledge" and God that has set that "starting point".

So, in conclusion, until the Holy Spirit reveals it to you, it is circular logic.

You win this debate. And again, i pray that someday you will be able to see the Truth, and become Saved. At that point, you win so much more.

Well, there is really nothing else to say or reply to.

If you admit that it is circular logic, until the magical holy spirit appears to whomever is at this logical conundrum, then I agree.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Well, there is really nothing else to say or reply to.

If you admit that it is circular logic, until the magical holy spirit appears to whomever is at this logical conundrum, then I agree.



would you be willing to comment on this?:

"<<<< i cut out the "Pi in the Bible" parts because i'm going to try to post it in a Thread of itself.

Do you have AIM? I think it would only be fair to try to make this a joint thread (such as "posted by both of us...pros and cons").

I'm not sure how it will work, but i think it may be fun and interesting.. if not that, than maybe atleast a novel approach in TOTSE)"

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

This is Shell's Mom, and I have a few things I would like to say...

This post was the most idiotic thing I have ever read in my entire life.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



would you be willing to comment on this?:

"<<<< i cut out the "Pi in the Bible" parts because i'm going to try to post it in a Thread of itself.

Do you have AIM? I think it would only be fair to try to make this a joint thread (such as "posted by both of us...pros and cons").

I'm not sure how it will work, but i think it may be fun and interesting.. if not that, than maybe atleast a novel approach in TOTSE)"

I don't have AIM, or other instant messengers. I don't really like using them. But feel free to e-mail me (it's in my profile)

As for the thread, it sounds as a good idea.

I didn't bother reading anything but the first 3 or 4 posts, and I just want to say this:

HellzShellz, if a rational person were to go their entire life without being exposed to any religion, and then were shown the Bible, they wouldn't ever believe most of it to be true. In a case like that, only a child would believe it. Come on, its like believing a Harry Potter book because it had a line at the end that said "This all actually happened because I wrote it, and what I write is true."

Now, if you say god is some supernatural concept that we're not capable of understanding or sensing, how the hell could you believe some book that is so horribly written?

I stopped believing in god because I grew up, I developed, I became intelligent and not so gullible. I stopped beliving in 'em just like I stopped believing in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Boogie Man.

I mean, it could be entirely possible that there is some weird ass being out there that we cant sense, understand, or interact with in any way; but I would never ever believe something as absurd as your Bible.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

This is Shell's Mom...

So I skimmed through a little more of this thread, and I must say that I've heard the same exact stupid ass arguments as this woman just put fourth from 14 year olds. I used to go to these bi-weekly church gatherings to eat all their free food; Collection plate money well spent, I would (not) say.

Just because you can't understand how the universe works doesn't mean you can just assume there is some all powerful being in control of it all. Most of your idiotic spewing can actually be explained by modern-day scientists.

Go to hell.

If you can directly answer these questions with positive answers, the atheists lose:

Can humans percieve anything outside limits of their perception, i.e. non-empirical, non-scientific data?

Where is the empirical and scientific evidence for god?

WTF?!

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I understand yalls unbelief, but it's narrow-minded. It's selfish to think you're the top of the chain. It's ignorant to say the only truth is what you can see with the natrual senses. You can't understand supernatrual with a natrual mind. God is Supernatrual.

I'm tired of hearing people use christians as an excuse to NOT believe. People are humans and they're tempted by their flesh just like anyone else in any way, when they fall into temptation we say, "I knew he wasn't a REAL christians, he's a hypocrite." What makes them hypocrites? Because they aren't the Christ? We're told build a personal relationship with Christ, Read the word, pray. Those are the first things you do, and that's SEEKING CHRIST. The next thing we're taught to do, is fellowship with other believers for encouragement. Then, minister.

I'm tired of hearing people use the trials of their past as a reason not to believe. I don't care if the person who hurt you claimed to be a christian, they pursued their own sexual/sadistic desires to do what they did and how they did it, when they did it. The thought that they acted out wasn't placed their by God, it was their temptation used to HARM YOU and hold YOU BACK. Giving up on God for that reason is to say you don't have what it takes to see past people's mistakes caused by temptation from the enemy, and to LOVE them. EVERYONE goes through things, they didn't ask to go through. Not everyone blames God. Some fall and get back up, some live in their past pain all their lives and live a bitter, unhappy life.

When you live in sin or don't deal with sin:

When you don't deal with sin in your life you give the enemy a stronghold on you. You can't live a double life, but if you're living in sin and using God to feel better about sinning, you aren't fooling anyone but yourself because God knows the true desires of your heart. The wages of sin is Death!

So you've lost your mother, father, granny to death. Get over it. Death is a part of life, and you have what you believe you have. Chances are that persons unconfessed sin and lack of belief in the creative power of the Living God to heal them left them their on their death bed.



I'm not trying to be mean, I love you all so much. Why exactly don't you believe in God? When did you stop believeing, if you ever did believe? Why? When trials came, and you turned and blamed the wrong one? Then you formed your own theological bologna? WHY IS IT AMERICANS ARE SO GOOD AT MAKING AN INNOCENT GUILTY, but they've lost sight of believeing in the BEST?





i never belived because i don't want some book dictating my life. All christianity is, is circular logic.

Example:

The world was created in 6 days as said in the bible

but how do we know the bible is telling the truth?

because its the unflawed word of god

but how do we know its the unflawed word of god?

its written in the bible

besides, christianity is only about 2000 years old where religions like Taoism, Buddahism and confucinism predate Christianity so how can you say what is right and what is wrong? you can't nor will you ever be able to.

I wish ignorant people would catch a virus, and since they don't believe in evolution, die of it, horribly and painfully. It would be poetic justice.

you don't get it do you

we're not fucking narrow-minded, well those of us who are atheist for a reason aren't, we've tried faith, it doesn't work, it just fucking doesn't

faith in something is just saying yea this is my reason for living because i'm too damn lazy to find a more interesting one

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Why exactly don't you believe in God? When did you stop believeing, if you ever did believe? Why? When trials came, and you turned and blamed the wrong one? Then you formed your own theological bologna?

When did you start believing in god? When someone told you he existed and all that bologna, as you put it. Thinking for yourself usually leads to more truth than just listening to someone else. Do you realize the way you're phrasing those questions applies to the creators of christianity too? Why did Jesus decide to not believe in the religions of that time? Why did he go around telling people his theological lunch meat?

Personally, I almost always questioned the existence of god. Luckily my mom didn't force me to go to church after I expressed I didn't like it, so I didn't end up brainwashed like you.

You need to get off the high horse and think for a minute that you follow the only philosophy or belief that's right. Perception is a strange thing, everyone sees the world differently and some people see it drastically different from you. You were socialized to be the person you are. All the influences in your life guided you on that path. It's become so natural to you that you don't even question it.