I was always wondering about this. Of course, the whole theory with Christianity is that you, of course, accept Jesus as your saviour, as well as all these other things which you do to try and live a life like Jesus in doing good deeds, being kind, etc. What I was wondering, though, is what if you were Christian, went to church on your own accord, etc, yet weren't the best of people. Would you, in Christian theory, still go to heaven while a non-believer who is a very good person (helps the poor, joins the peace corps, whatever) goes to hell?

I've been pondering this for a while, though my knowledge of Christianity or anything doesn't go very far. Anybody willing to clear this up?

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0037/0037_01.asp



That is what Jack Chick has to say on the subject.

...that's fucked up. An interesting insight upon Christianity, though. Thanks.

Christians are idiots, end of story.

They keep saying that the savior is coming to take them all away to heaven. WTF IS TAKING SO LONG GOD?!

Most christian denominations say, yep, a good person who isn't christian goes to hell. The reasoning is that you need to have zero sins to enter heaven. Everyone has either comitted some sort of sin (no matter how small) in their life, and/or has inherrited original sin from Adam and Eve. The only way to get rid of sins are to accept Jesus.

Ironically surveys show that when asking the general population what they believe, quite a few people who consider themselves christian believe that good deeds can get you into heaven.

If anyone has the link to the "17 Ways No One Is Going To Heaven" i'd be very grateful.

It was posted on here awhile ago and goes over how good deeds, being a kind person etc... will not get you into Heaven.

If you are a good person, and live without Christ, you will find yourself in Hell after you die.

Isaiah 64:6 - "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

Romans 3:23 - "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Basically, you are born into sin. Without Christ in your heart, who washes you clean of your sin in God's eyes, everything you do that can be considered good comes from YOU, and YOU are still a sinful being without Christ, so your good works still have the blemish of sin upon them. Good works are tainted by man's sin, unless the good works are cleansed under the blood of Christ.

As long as the good you do comes from yourself, it will do nothing to gain your salvation.

We become truly righteous not through our own righteousness, but through the power of Christ's righteousness. Therefore, to become more like Christ we must partake of the divine nature of Christ (2 Peter 1:4) and his righteousness.

To be righteous is to be right with God. To be right with God comes by accepting both Christ's grace and by obeying his commandments, following his teachings and doing the will of the Father.

In contrast, if you are a Christian, and are not a good person (which is almost impossible...once the spirit dwells within you, you have a heightened sense of conscience, and it is much more difficult to commit sin - the burden of guilt becomes tenfold), you are still going to heaven.

Why ?

Because it is your FAITH in Christ's redemption that pays for your sins...you can do nothing to earn your way into heaven.

Psalm 14:3 - All (not "some" !) have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

We are encouraged to do good, because it is a principle that makes everyone's lives better (believers, and unbelievers alike).

The commandments given to us in the Old Testament help us to stay healthy - mentally, physically, and emotionally.

Jeremiah 29:11 - For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you..."

Only when we are healthy in all three areas can we have a truly fulfilling relationship with God.

Otherwise, we are distracted by guilt, worry, and doubt.

If you believe in Christ, you will go to heaven, whether you are spiritually, physically, or mentally healthy or not.

quote:Originally posted by Badfish:

They keep saying that the savior is coming to take them all away to heaven. WTF IS TAKING SO LONG GOD?!

Read the prophecies given to us in the Bible, and you will get a pretty good idea of when Christ is coming back for his church.

In the meantime, take this scripture and apply it to your own life.

2 Peter 3:3-8 - 3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

God bless... http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Christians are idiots, end of story.

1 Peter 4:14 - If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

What an awesome religion, child rapist priests go to heaven, caring atheists go to hell.

With some of the people who are going to heaven (according to that belief) I pick Hell, it sounds like a better place to me.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:In contrast, if you are a Christian, and are not a good person (which is almost impossible...once the spirit dwells within you, you have a heightened sense of conscience, and it is much more difficult to commit sin - the burden of guilt becomes tenfold)

Wow, in that case I think the number of "christians" in the world just dropped to 2, maybe 3. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

In contrast, if you are a Christian, and are not a good person (which is almost impossible...once the spirit dwells within you, you have a heightened sense of conscience, and it is much more difficult to commit sin - the burden of guilt becomes tenfold), you are still going to heaven.



Hahahaha how many Christians are in the world then?

So when we all get to Hell, who wants to hit the hellhound tracks with me?

Screw that, group sex at the large bonfire.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

(Girls in hell will do things girls in heaven think is icky)

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Sorry guys...I didn't write the Book. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

It isn't what you do, it is what is in your heart.

The Bible tells us that what comes from the mouth is a reflection of the condition of our heart.

I personally take that to mean that what is on the inside is usually projected outwardly...

While there are exceptions to every rule, once you have the spirit of God living in you, it is difficult to commit sin - and when you DO commit sin, you are immediately sorry for it, as opposed to being oblivious to the fact that you just sinned, which is often the case for unbelievers.

Now, people that can sodomize little boys and then sit behind a confessional screen and tell someone ELSE how they can atone for their sins is simply....not a Christian.

We cannot begin to understand morality from a spiritual perspective, which is why it doesn't make any sense that "good" people go to hell, and subpar people go to heaven.

However, all people think they are good, so who are we to establish the measure of good that will actually redeem us ?

Take for example, you as a driver.

Isn't every else on the road more stupid than you are ?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by hungryhippie:

...that's fucked up. An interesting insight upon Christianity, though. Thanks.

Why is that "fucked up"?

If someone kills one person, we call them a murderer.

Can the murderer bring the dead person back to life?

If someone steals, we call them a thief.

If the thief returns what was stolen, will the court still say that nothing was taken?

If someone lies, we call them a liar.

How many truths have to be told, to make up for the one lie?

What i'm saying is, in God's eyes, one little sin, is still sin.

Jesus died once, in order to cleanse each and every sin. This includes the "one little lie" as well as the murder.

It is God that determined what Sin is. And it is God who determined the way to Heaven.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

caring atheists go to hell.

But i thought atheists say that "good" and "bad" are subjective? What measures "caring" from an atheist's POV?



quote:Wow, in that case I think the number of "christians" in the world just dropped to 2, maybe 3. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

That line of thinking kinda gives alittle credence to the account of 8 people aboard the Ark, huh?

My God Can Beat the Shit Out of Your God



O k

Everyone that accepts jesus into their heart shall be saved...(at one time i believed this)



...therefore billions of souls are going to be lost to hell!

I can beat the shit out of all these christians.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

Another example of ignorance. You could also say that if I raped you, you are also blessed because God is with you or whatever. You just try to ignore the hard hitting fact that you have been raped, your internals are bleeding and you are mentally scared for life. That's right, useless. Ignore facts. Act deaf. It's what weak people do.

And I'm responsible. Which is badass.

If you are insulted because of the name of Christ (or whatever piece of shit icon you believe in), then you are insulted and got owned. That's the truth. You can't get blessed without heroin, everyone knows that.

All you people who "feel" christ. You either have brain tumor, or you're just feeling your stupidity.

How gay you all are.

Shut up Snoopy,

you are throwing insults at people for what they believe in. That is stupid.

[This message has been edited by Lou Reed (edited 07-03-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

Shut up Snoopy,

you are throwing insults at people for what they believe in. That is stupid. Say why you think they are wrong or nothing.



actually he was.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

Shut up Snoopy,

you are throwing insults at people for what they believe in. That is stupid.

If a person comes up to me and says: "I believe that fucking children should be legal", then I'm going to tell him he's a fucking idiot and punch him in the face.

If a person comes up to me and says: "I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and everyone who denies him will burn in hell for all eternity", then I'm going to kick their face in.

Beliefs can be wrong, and in 99% of the time, they are wrong. Stop believing in stupid shit that has no fucking relevance to anything. I mean, seriously. How the fuck is religion relevant to anything in life? Makes no sense. Go out, get high, get drunk, get laid, enjoy yourself. Fuck, do sports, go to a BBQ, drive a fast car, listen to music. Why waste your time with what people 5000 years ago believed was fact. Are you a moron or something?

Anyone with half a fucking brain knows that religion is fucking idiotic.

I said fuck 7 times, not counting this last one!

i think that to believe you will be in the presence of God forever is naïve and there is a certain quality in questioning the authority while being a good person

What authority? God has no authority here. It's not like he comes down from heaven and say: "listen dipshits, you either do what the fuck I tell you or you get STUFFED!". The rules are made up by people. The bible was written by people. It's not God's rules, it's people's rules. You're an idiot to follow the rules of thousands of years ago, written by dumbasses.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

But i thought atheists say that "good" and "bad" are subjective? What measures "caring" from an atheist's POV?

Nope. The only thing an atheist says is that they lack a belief in God or Gods, nothing more.

But to answer the question, well it's a hard answer. First we need to realize that everyone is a subjective moralist and the only difference is why does their thinking for them. The short answer based on humanist beliefs is that moral standards come from trying to maximize the happyness and choices of yourself and society with as few negative concequences to yourself and society as possible (yes, it leaves a lot open, but remember this is the short short answer.)



quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

That line of thinking kinda gives alittle credence to the account of 8 people aboard the Ark, huh?

Not quite, God chose Noah and took along his family out of pitty basically (they just got lucky enough to be family). Noah sinned not too long after he got off the ark, I guess he really wasn't a christian either. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

So, the basis, according to YOU, for being a Christian is "not" sinning ?

MWUAHAHAHAHA

This is precisely why I consider most atheist's ignorant.

Haven't got a clue what their talking about, but they will defend it to the death !

quote:Posted by Snoopy:

Another example of ignorance. You could also say that if I raped you, you are also blessed because God is with you or whatever. You just try to ignore the hard hitting fact that you have been raped, your internals are bleeding and you are mentally scared for life. That's right, useless. Ignore facts. Act deaf. It's what weak people do.

And I'm responsible. Which is badass.

If you are insulted because of the name of Christ (or whatever piece of shit icon you believe in), then you are insulted and got owned. That's the truth. You can't get blessed without heroin, everyone knows that.

All you people who "feel" christ. You either have brain tumor, or you're just feeling your stupidity.

How gay you all are.

How was it ignorance ? It was a Bible verse. I would venture to say that the fact that you didn't understand the meaning of it shows clearly who is ignorant between the two of us. *lol*

There is no provision for being blessed as a result of being raped.

If you raped me BECAUSE I am a Christian, just to seek revenge against my faith, then it would be the same principle as being insulted...if we are persecuted BECAUSE OF our faith, then we are blessed.

So, because I am a Christian, I am not required to feel anything in relation to my persecution ? *laughs*

Again, your ignorance about Christianity is apparent here.

It is stronger to say, "I give this to God." than it is to say, "I seek my OWN revenge !"

I don't expect you to understand that, amidst your abundant ignorance of God.

You are changing the context of the phrase, "Persecuted BECAUSE of Jesus.", putting the emphasis on the wrong word. I was saying, "If I am persecuted because of my FAITH, then I am BLESSED." - it means I am doing the right thing. The world hates God, because it is grounded in sin, and sin detests all that is good. It is not unclear why the world rejects Christians and their faith. When I am rejected because of it, I rejoice, because I know I am doing the right thing.

Are you a homophobe ?

You call people gay a lot.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Bible = ignorance. Every single part of it. Simple fact.

Only a simpleton could come to the conclusion that the Bible is "simply" ignorant.

That isn't even the right word for it, based on what I believe you are trying to say:

IGNORANT

1. Lacking education or knowledge.

2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.

3. Unaware or uninformed.

If anything, the Bible is a deliberate, educated, historical, knowledgable, informed, and aware text that is in direct contradiction with the world.

Prove otherwise, if you can.

The bible is a novel, not a scientific book. It contains no knowledge, it's a work of fiction. People who try to interpret this fiction as fact, are ignorant, hence the bible is a compilation of ignorance. On it's own, it's nothing. A book is nothing until it's read. Through it's followers, it is ignorant. You are ignorant in other words. You're not yet developed mentally to understand this, and by all chance, you never will be.

You shame humanity.

And again you try to call me an atheist and then attack "most" atheists. I guess if you can't provide a good argument, comment, the christian thing to do is try to insult people. Good for you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

BTW, what are you afraid of in the "What are they afraid of ?" thread? http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) You seem to be dodging replies. It seems like you don't have a clue what you are talking about in that thread but will defend it to the death (or just ignore it).

Where did I say the basis for being a christian was not sinning? It was you that claimed sinning would be very hard for any christian ("which is almost impossible...once the spirit dwells within you, you have a heightened sense of conscience, and it is much more difficult to commit sin"). I was just pointing out that God's choice of all the land, Noah, didn't find it too hard to sin and neither did his children. Thus he might not have been a true christian.





quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, the basis, according to YOU, for being a Christian is "not" sinning ?

MWUAHAHAHAHA

This is precisely why I consider most atheist's ignorant.

Haven't got a clue what their talking about, but they will defend it to the death !

Stop using the word "atheist". It's really irritating and it has no real meaning due to its original meaning being twisted by so many shitheads.

Sure it has a meaning, most christians just seem to be ignorant about it ( http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) ). An atheist is someone who either doesn't believe or has a disbelief in God (a=without theos = God ist=belief (or at least close enough).

Of course, many people try to put all kinds of other claims on the word, to try and demonize it, DS seems to like to call people that disagree with him/her an atheist. Ironically atheist originated as a term for christians, because they didn't believe in the "true" greek Gods and thus were Godless.

Atheist stands for someone who denies the existence of God. Now, in order to deny something, it must exist first, somewhere. If only to exist in people's minds, it exist. So in order to deny God, you must first acknowledge it exist or has existed, or it's something that is possible.

Like the holocaust. A holocaust is a reality. People deny it, because they claim 6 million Jews did not get killed during the 2nd World War at the hands of the Nazis. They can deny the holocaust because they KNOW what a holocaust is. No one knows what a God even is. It's just a stupid word with no meaning, that anyone can suit to their own beliefs. In order to deny God, you must first acknowledge what it is.

So basically, an atheist isn't someone who just doesn't believe in God. Besides, it's stupid to label yourself with such generalizing words. Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Jew, Idiot. It all has the same meaning once you reach a certain level of human self awareness. Most people are too dumb to get there however.

So even after I explained it, you choose to be ignorant about it's meaning. Maybe you should go talk to atheists, very few "deny God."

Maybe this will help. Let's say there is a group that believes in magical green elves. Let's call them "grelvists." Now, christians do not believe in magical green elves, thus they are agrelvist. They don't deny that magical green elves exist, they just don't believe in them.

Maybe you should just stay out of conversations until you know what you are talking about.

quote:It all has the same meaning once you reach a certain level of human self awareness. Most people are too dumb to get there however.

Oh and I bet you have reached that level of awareness.

Ok then. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

The bible is a novel, not a scientific book. It contains no knowledge, it's a work of fiction. People who try to interpret this fiction as fact, are ignorant, hence the bible is a compilation of ignorance. On it's own, it's nothing. A book is nothing until it's read. Through it's followers, it is ignorant. You are ignorant in other words. You're not yet developed mentally to understand this, and by all chance, you never will be.

You shame humanity.

I never said the Bible was a scientific book.

It contains plenty of knowledge...that you haven't read it is revealed by your lack of knowledge regarding it's knowledge.

Seeing that your opinion of it is biased (since you haven't read it), I can safely say that it is an ignorant opinion, and therefore holds no merit.

What makes you think I haven't read the bible? You're biased of me.

quote:Originally posted by hungryhippie:

I was always wondering about this. Of course, the whole theory with Christianity is that you, of course, accept Jesus as your saviour, as well as all these other things which you do to try and live a life like Jesus in doing good deeds, being kind, etc. What I was wondering, though, is what if you were Christian, went to church on your own accord, etc, yet weren't the best of people. Would you, in Christian theory, still go to heaven while a non-believer who is a very good person (helps the poor, joins the peace corps, whatever) goes to hell?

I've been pondering this for a while, though my knowledge of Christianity or anything doesn't go very far. Anybody willing to clear this up?

Jesus didn't do 'good' deeds for self-gradification. Jesus did all he did to glorify the Father. He did everything he did out of a PURE heart, love.

Eample: Yesterday, I told my mother I would clean for her, and she could take me to sports com. (My heart was wrong.)

So I clean the house and, after finishing, God convicted me. He said, "Shelly you did something out of what you called love, expecting something in return. You didn't have the right attitude." Well, I've learned you can't argue with God. So I told my mother, I will not go to sports com, because I did what I did 'for her' out of the wrong attitude of my heart.

Love is completely selfless. Everything Jesus did was completely selfless, it was love. He commands us to walk in that love. There's a difference between doing something 'good' to please people and glorify God, as there is a difference between doing something good out of the goodness of your heart, rather than doing something 'good' expecting something, or anything in return.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

And again you try to call me an atheist and then attack "most" atheists. I guess if you can't provide a good argument, comment, the christian thing to do is try to insult people. Good for you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

BTW, what are you afraid of in the "What are they afraid of ?" thread? http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) You seem to be dodging replies. It seems like you don't have a clue what you are talking about in that thread but will defend it to the death (or just ignore it).

Where did I say the basis for being a christian was not sinning? It was you that claimed sinning would be very hard for any christian ("which is almost impossible...once the spirit dwells within you, you have a heightened sense of conscience, and it is much more difficult to commit sin"). I was just pointing out that God's choice of all the land, Noah, didn't find it too hard to sin and neither did his children. Thus he might not have been a true christian.

Do you or don't you believe in God ? I believe I have derived from your post's that you do not believe in God.

If you don't, that makes you an atheist: "One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods." - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=atheist

If you do believe in God, then you've got nothing to worry about, now do you ? By admission, you are guilty of your own charge.

My calling someone an atheist is not an insult, in and of itself. Why do you take offense to that ?

My saying that atheist's are ignorant about Christianity is a TRUE statement, considering majority rules. I have rarely met an atheist that knew the Bible, even to the smallest degree. How can you hate/reject something you do not understand ? Even to the point of attacking a Christian for their belief IN it ?

So, my calling atheist's, in general, ignorant was not an insult, either. It is truth. Stereotypes aren't created for no reason.

In contrast, I do not often resort to personal attacks, which you misconstrued my "atheist's are ignorant" comment to be, yet atheist's have called me stupid, a whore, illiterate...and that's just to name a few. When the shoe fits, wear it.

Hypocrisy is not a virtue.

I am not afraid of anything. I don't admit to knowing everything. I also gave plenty of evidence for my point that wasn't refuted. If an argument is not going to be fair, it is wise (in my opinion) to drop it. Most of the time, it is a waste of time arguing with Rust. No matter whether he is right or wrong, in his mind, he is right.

Since you are on his team, you have never had to argue for days on end with him...the inane hair-splitting gets on one's nerves after a while. Not continuing in such trivialities should not be seen as "defeat". Of course, since I am the Christian, you will. It's convenient, and feel comfy for you.

You basically eluded to the fact that no one is a Christian because we all sin. That's was simply false. I thought it was funny, coming from someone who doesn't believe the Bible is true.

Noah was a sinner from birth. So were you. The only sinless human being was Jesus. So what ? You missed the point entirely.

My incredulousness stands villified. You don't know what you're talking about, so I can't understand why you reject Christianity.

If you think that Noah being a sinner means he wasn't Christian...*shakes head*

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

What makes you think I haven't read the bible? You're biased of me.

Your ignorance is prevalent.

You haven't read it.

That's a pretty bold statement, considering I've said nothing about the bible besides the fact that people who believe in its stories are ignorant. You're biased.

And I have read the bible and the old testament, and I've read parts of the Koran as well.

By having read them, it is fully justified for me to call you ignorant for believing in it. As it is justified for me to want to stone you at the city gate, wench!

quote:If anything, the Bible is a deliberate, educated, historical, knowledgable, informed, and aware text that is in direct contradiction with the world.

Snoopy did you notice this?

quote:Prove otherwise, if you can.

And this?

Did you notice this:

quote:The bible is a novel, not a scientific book. It contains no knowledge, it's a work of fiction. People who try to interpret this fiction as fact, are ignorant, hence the bible is a compilation of ignorance. On it's own, it's nothing. A book is nothing until it's read. Through it's followers, it is ignorant. You are ignorant in other words. You're not yet developed mentally to understand this, and by all chance, you never will be.

You shame humanity.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Atheist stands for someone who denies the existence of God. Now, in order to deny something, it must exist first, somewhere. If only to exist in people's minds, it exist. So in order to deny God, you must first acknowledge it exist or has existed, or it's something that is possible.

Like the holocaust. A holocaust is a reality. People deny it, because they claim 6 million Jews did not get killed during the 2nd World War at the hands of the Nazis. They can deny the holocaust because they KNOW what a holocaust is. No one knows what a God even is. It's just a stupid word with no meaning, that anyone can suit to their own beliefs. In order to deny God, you must first acknowledge what it is.

So basically, an atheist isn't someone who just doesn't believe in God. Besides, it's stupid to label yourself with such generalizing words. Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Jew, Idiot. It all has the same meaning once you reach a certain level of human self awareness. Most people are too dumb to get there however.

ATHEIST - One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

DISBELIEF - Refusal or reluctance to believe.

DENY -

1. To declare untrue; contradict.

2. To refuse to believe; reject.

3. To refuse to recognize or acknowledge; disavow.

You can try to manipulate the definition of atheist to point in your favor all you want, but it is plain as day to me. You don't believe God, or a god, exists. That's an atheist.

I agree that titles are stupid, and mostly inaccurate, since people vary in their degrees of belief/conviction concerning their titles. However, it's all we've got to identify ourselves with, and for this debate, generalizing those that do not believe God exist's as "atheist's" serves it's purpose.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

That's a pretty bold statement, considering I've said nothing about the bible besides the fact that people who believe in its stories are ignorant. You're biased.

And I have read the bible and the old testament, and I've read parts of the Koran as well.

By having read them, it is fully justified for me to call you ignorant for believing in it. As it is justified for me to want to stone you at the city gate, wench!

No, you haven't.

I can say that with conviction, since you don't seem to understand God, or the Bible.

Even if you found the Bible to be crap after reading it, you would still understand Christianity better than you do.

I stand firm on my belief that you haven't read it, since you know NOTHING about it.

(and don't try copying and pasting stuff from it now, since you have never done it in the past, and I will know based on sentence structure and validity if it came from you or not.)

I'm not an atheist. You sure are stupid though.

quote:Originally posted by vice:

And this?

Of course not.

They don't ever want to argue the intricacies of the Bible.

They feel vindicated in saying, "It's stupid." and nothing more.

When you get down to the meat and potato's of it, they haven't got a leg to stand on.

So, they ignore that portion of the debate.

It's common.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I'm not an atheist. You sure are stupid though.

Again, when all else fails, resort to personal attacks !

Your corner must be comfy...you are in it quite often.

People can read the bible with a carnal mind and never understand it because of the absence of the spirit. Digital the reason why you and I can read the bible and get something from is it because we have the comforter that lives in us, giving us all knowledge and wisdom of God.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I'm not an atheist.

Then you believe God exists ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

No, you haven't.

I can say that with conviction, since you don't seem to understand God, or the Bible.

Even if you found the Bible to be crap after reading it, you would still understand Christianity better than you do.

I stand firm on my belief that you haven't read it, since you know NOTHING about it.

(and don't try copying and pasting stuff from it now, since you have never done it in the past, and I will know based on sentence structure and validity if it came from you or not.)

Why would I want to copy/past bullshit from the bible? You do it plenty. And why would I even care if you believed me? It's common for your people to deny anything that contradicts your illogical beliefs. I mean, whether you believe me or not still doesn't change the fact that I've read it. It's like with God. You can believe in Him all you want, still won't change anything about the fact that there is no biblical God.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Then you believe God exists ?

What's a God?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

People can read the bible with a carnal mind and never understand it because of the absence of the spirit. Digital the reason why you and I can read the bible and get something from is it because we have the comforter that lives in us, giving us all knowledge and wisdom of God.



No, no...you misunderstand me. Or maybe I misspoke.

Without spiritual glasses on, you cannot UNDERSTAND God and His will as set forth in the Bible.

What I am saying is that it is clear he hasn't read it, since his perception of Christianity's requirements is off the mark, at best.

He doesn't know what Christians SHOULD BE, which is clear in the Bible.

He doesn't know what Christians COULD BE, which is also clear in the Bible.

He can't ever reference it to combat it, which shows that he hasn't read it.

Reading one or two chapters does not constitute "having read it".

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

What's a God?

I didn't say "a God". I said "God".

That means the God of the Bible...the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

quote:Originally posted by vice:

And this?

Huh? You speak of proof? There is an equal amount of proof that god exists compared to the proof that god doesn't. Stfu now.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

No, no...you misunderstand me. Or maybe I misspoke.

Without spiritual glasses on, you cannot UNDERSTAND God and His will as set forth in the Bible.

What I am saying is that it is clear he hasn't read it, since his perception of Christianity's requirements is off the mark, at best.

He doesn't know what Christians SHOULD BE, which is clear in the Bible.

He doesn't know what Christians COULD BE, which is also clear in the Bible.

He can't ever reference it to combat it, which shows that he hasn't read it.

Reading one or two chapters does not constitute "having read it".

I've read and understood the whole thing. I'm just smart enough to know it's all just a stupid little story, that teaches morals to a 7 year old. Your mental abilities are below that of a 7 year old though, that's why you see such "spirituality" in it.

I could blow your mind, but you're more fun when you're all ignorant and shit. Great for some quick giggled. It's the only think your kind is worthy of. Shits and giggles.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I didn't say "a God". I said "God".

That means the God of the Bible...the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I know of no such thing. Do you believe the Borg exist?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

No, no...you misunderstand me. Or maybe I misspoke.

Without spiritual glasses on, you cannot UNDERSTAND God and His will as set forth in the Bible.

What I am saying is that it is clear he hasn't read it, since his perception of Christianity's requirements is off the mark, at best.

He doesn't know what Christians SHOULD BE, which is clear in the Bible.

He doesn't know what Christians COULD BE, which is also clear in the Bible.

He can't ever reference it to combat it, which shows that he hasn't read it.

Reading one or two chapters does not constitute "having read it".

I got ya now. Some people read the bible like it's a history book too, when it actually applies to us even today.

No matter the case, they know us by our love. They did unspeakable things to Jesus for simply loving us, and they'll do it to us too, but we still have to love them where they are at. We remain in the vine to bear fruit from the branches.

I wish they still made those W.W.J.D. Arm bands I would get like 100 of them.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Why would I want to copy/past bullshit from the bible? You do it plenty. And why would I even care if you believed me? It's common for your people to deny anything that contradicts your illogical beliefs. I mean, whether you believe me or not still doesn't change the fact that I've read it. It's like with God. You can believe in Him all you want, still won't change anything about the fact that there is no biblical God.

If you are going to call something stupid and worthless, it would probably be wise to know WHY you consider it stupid and worthless. And unless you "know" it directly, you saying it is stupid is unfounded, and based on personal opinion alone.

I didn't say you cared if I believed you or not. The fact still stands, you haven't read it (ALL OF IT).

"It's common for your people to deny anything that contradicts your illogical beliefs."

Ditto. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by TeckGuru:

Huh? You speak of proof? There is an equal amount of proof that god exists compared to the proof that god doesn't. Stfu now.

No, no...he was asking Snoop to refute the argument he evaded.

Vice is agreeing with me.

Thanks, though ! *hugs*

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

If you are going to call something stupid and worthless, it would probably be wise to know WHY you consider it stupid and worthless. And unless you "know" it directly, you saying it is stupid is unfounded, and based on personal opinion alone.

I didn't say you cared if I believed you or not. The fact still stands, you haven't read it (ALL OF IT).

"It's common for your people to deny anything that contradicts your illogical beliefs."

Ditto. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I have read all of it. And by contradiction, I mean contradiction through facts, not fabrications. Anyone could make stories up that aren't real.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I got ya now. Some people read the bible like it's a history book too, when it actually applies to us even today.

No matter the case, they know us by our love. They did unspeakable things to Jesus for simply loving us, and they'll do it to us too, but we still have to love them where they are at. We remain in the vine to bear fruit from the branches.

I wish they still made those W.W.J.D. Arm bands I would get like 100 of them.



Would you put them all on at once, like Madonna ? *lol*

You're right...though, I should show Snoop more love.

It's hard, though. He has been calling me stupid for months. *lol*

Pride is a biotch.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I know of no such thing. Do you believe the Borg exist?

They exist on a TV show called "Star Trek".

And they are always hot.

Why is that ? *wonders faintly*

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I have read all of it. And by contradiction, I mean contradiction through facts, not fabrications. Anyone could make stories up that aren't real.

Can you come up with said contradictions on your own ?

Again, copying and pasting from other sites won't do you any good. I know your sentence structure by now. I will figure it out.

If you can't come up with any, it is safe to say you haven't read it. Even I can dish out a few of my own.

If you read the Bible, why don't you know what a Christian should be ?

Makupsex is too lustful. And everyone knows vengeance and wrath feel better than empty love. Oh, ooohh! You're in for it now! Better get those human emotions under control, or it's Hell for you.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

No, no...he was asking Snoop to refute the argument he evaded.

Vice is agreeing with me.

Thanks, though ! *hugs*

Yes, but he basically asked Snoop to "Prove otherwise". He asks for the impossible to establish his point. Just wrong.

quote:Originally posted by TeckGuru:

Huh? You speak of proof? There is an equal amount of proof that god exists compared to the proof that god doesn't. Stfu now.

Oh this is so funny.

Well if you want to discuss facts, consider:

historical: Gives accurate reference to names, places, beliefs.

knowledgable: I don't think I have found a contradiction in the Bible on belief yet.

informed, and aware text that is in direct contradiction with the world: Took awhile but it was translated, right?

OT to NT prophecies where correct.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Would you put them all on at once, like Madonna ? *lol*

You're right...though, I should show Snoop more love.

It's hard, though. He has been calling me stupid for months. *lol*

Pride is a biotch.

Yes, I would. Hehe.

Yea, I know believe me. I try so hard, but sometimes people can say the wrong thing at the wrong time, and I find myself getting defensive. It's harder dealing with family. Because of my colorful past, I have those who stood beside me at one time, that stand against me now. Lately though, it hasn't been so much as anger as it has hurt. I've began to take things straight to heart and I've become such a 'sissy' cry baby.

Actually the word, 'Christian' derived from antioch, meaning 'little annointed ones.'

A christian is much more than the world has conditioned you to believe.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Can you come up with said contradictions on your own ?

Again, copying and pasting from other sites won't do you any good. I know your sentence structure by now. I will figure it out.

If you can't come up with any, it is safe to say you haven't read it. Even I can dish out a few of my own.

If you read the Bible, why don't you know what a Christian should be ?

I know what a Christian is. The whole love bullshit story. However, that isn't being discussed here. Reality is being discussed. And your beliefs have about as much to do with reality as me on LSD.

The truth is, I as a "heretic" understand true love far better than any Christian ever could. I understand it through real experience, not the bible. It's the real deal honey. Stop dreaming about God, and just go see Him.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Actually the word, 'Christian' derived from antioch, meaning 'little annointed ones.'

A christian is much more than the world has conditioned you to believe.

Words hold no meaning when you go past a point. Only what you feel is truth. Only what you feel matters.

quote:Originally posted by vice:

Oh this is so funny.

Well if you want to discuss facts, consider:

historical: Gives accurate reference to names, places, beliefs.

knowledgable: I don't think I have found a contradiction in the Bible on belief yet.

informed, and aware text that is in direct contradiction with the world: Took awhile but it was translated, right?

OT to NT prophecies where correct.

you have supplied opinions, not facts

I just want to say, reading some of what Snoopy just said.. What do you get from that? **Sissy watery eyes of joy** He's seeking God. Even if he doesn't know it. I'm going to pray the Ephesian Prayers over you Snoopy!

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I just want to say, reading some of what Snoopy just said.. What do you get from that? **Sissy watery eyes of joy** He's seeking God. Even if he doesn't know it. I'm going to pray the Ephesian Prayers over you Snoopy!



You're delusional. Cutting you would feel good.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

You're delusional. Cutting you would feel good.

Um.. at one time I would have handed you the razor blade myself. Cutting isn't even temptation for me anymore.

quote:Originally posted by TeckGuru:

you have supplied opinions, not facts

Some of scientific accuracies (could not be bothered to type it)

http://tinyurl.com/dgg2t

People and events:

http://tinyurl.com/avjqm

Places:

http://tinyurl.com/bd686

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Um.. at one time I would have handed you the razor blade myself. Cutting isn't even temptation for me anymore.

You should be glad. Cuts don't hurt. Unless you rub shit in them. But then they just sting, which can be a form of pleasure if you get into it. Now cracking bones is a whole other set of marbles.

quote:Originally posted by vice:

Some of scientific accuracies (could not be bothered to type it)

http://tinyurl.com/dgg2t

People and events:

http://tinyurl.com/avjqm

Places:

http://tinyurl.com/bd686

You can find articles on the Internet which contradict those, and are equally motivated and documented. Information is useless to the ignorant. Information is useless if it cannot be processed.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

You can find articles on the Internet which contradict those, and are equally motivated and documented. Information is useless to the ignorant. Information is useless if it cannot be processed.

quote:Originally posted by TeckGuru:

Yes, but he basically asked Snoop to "Prove otherwise". He asks for the impossible to establish his point. Just wrong.

But I did the same thing.

If someone is going to say, "You're wrong !", don't you think they ought to show why ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Do you or don't you believe in God ? I believe I have derived from your post's that you do not believe in God.

If you don't, that makes you an atheist: "One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods."

And where have you derived that? I don't believe I have made any statements about my faith. Remember, defending something doesn't always mean you are a believer in it. I would also suggest staying away from the dictionary when dealing with philosophy, it tends to over simplify things or screw up details. For example, it makes no mention of strong vs weak atheism.

And no, a person doesn't have to be an atheist if they aren't a theist. A strong agnostic (someone who believes it is impossible to know either way) would fall in-between the two.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

My saying that atheist's are ignorant about Christianity is a TRUE statement, considering majority rules. I have rarely met an atheist that knew the Bible, even to the smallest degree.

BS, I have met plenty of atheists that know the bible back to front, and I have met plenty of christians who obviously hadn't even opened the first page. You need to stop generalizing.

Yes, claiming someone is ignorant of something just because they may be an atheist is an insult, especially when you provide no support to your claim (in other words, you rarely show how they are ignorant, but just label them and move on).



quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, my calling atheist's, in general, ignorant was not an insult, either. It is truth. Stereotypes aren't created for no reason.

Yes you are right. All blondes are dumb. Women are stupider than men. All blacks wear gold jewelry and belong to street gangs. Mexicans don't shave. All asians know Karate. All Arabs are terrorists.

How many of those are true?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

In contrast, I do not often resort to personal attacks, which you misconstrued my "atheist's are ignorant" comment to be, yet atheist's have called me stupid, a whore, illiterate...and that's just to name a few. When the shoe fits, wear it.

Again, maybe check your prejudices. individuals who called themselves atheists did those things.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I also gave plenty of evidence for my point that wasn't refuted. If an argument is not going to be fair, it is wise (in my opinion) to drop it.

Maybe you can repeat that evidence in your thread, I didn't see it.

So far you haven't replied to my response or to Rust's evidence.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Since you are on his team, you have never had to argue for days on end with him...the inane hair-splitting gets on one's nerves after a while.

I haven't argued with Rust, but I have taken on quite a few atheists, christians, muslims, agnostics, scientists, etc. Including putting down a few hair splitters.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You basically eluded to the fact that no one is a Christian because we all sin. That's was simply false.

Yes, that is the extreme of your statement. You said that if someone is a christian it makes sinning hard. Yet there are plenty of "christians" out there that find sinning easy (from lying to adultery to rape etc.) According to your criteria, they are not christian.

Now noah was chosen by God. This should mean that sinning is even harder for him than a "true christian." This isn't true as it appears Noah has no problem getting drunk and his son has no problem spreading the news of his sin. Suggesting they might not have been "true christians."

[This message has been edited by Beta69 (edited 07-03-2005).]

Both sides are wrong to just be arguing over such trivial matters. Everyone with a shred of intelligence knows that these "mainstream" religions are laughable. There's no point in writing long articles about them that don't amount to limp dick.

The only reason I'm here is so you can feel good about your bullshit beliefs for once. But fun only lasts for so long.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I know what a Christian is. The whole love bullshit story. However, that isn't being discussed here. Reality is being discussed. And your beliefs have about as much to do with reality as me on LSD.

The truth is, I as a "heretic" understand true love far better than any Christian ever could. I understand it through real experience, not the bible. It's the real deal honey. Stop dreaming about God, and just go see Him.

Love bullshit ? Ummm...no. That's not what it's about.

God IS reality, whether you want to believe that or not. You can see His work everywhere...that you refuse to acknowledge this is the reason you are going to Hell. I didn't make that rule, God did. So you can stop hating me, or at least stop projecting your hatred of God (whom you claim doesn't exist) on me.

How could you possibly know whether I understand true love or not ?

I have three beautiful children, whom I love like I love no other. Is that true love ?

I love my husband more than I love myself.

Is that not true love ?

You don't know anything about my understanding of love. I only know about your understanding of the Bible by what you have posted...which is ignorant, at best.

I have posted nothing about my understanding of love, so that is a completely unfounded assumption.

But we have come to expect that from you, so don't think this has surprised me.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

You should be glad. Cuts don't hurt. Unless you rub shit in them. But then they just sting, which can be a form of pleasure if you get into it. Now cracking bones is a whole other set of marbles.

People who try and prove factual locations wrong are usually wrong in the head

Are you saying places found on maps are wrong?

Or that there is not enough evidence to show caeser was alive?

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Words hold no meaning when you go past a point. Only what you feel is truth. Only what you feel matters.

We "feel" God, and you don't.

Doesn't that worry you, since it is by your OWN choice that you do not ?

QUOTE Originally posted by Snoopy:

Another example of ignorance. You could also say that if I raped you, you are also blessed because God is with you or whatever.

You're right, another example of ignorance.. on your part.

To correct your statement, it would have to be, "You could also say that if I raped you, because of the name of Christ you are also blessed because God is with you or whatever."

You just try to ignore the hard hitting fact that you have been raped, your internals are bleeding and you are mentally scared for life. That's right, useless. Ignore facts. Act deaf. It's what weak people do.

So, in other words, you are ignoring facts and acting deaf. The people i have met who are truely strong, seldom if ever use their strength to harrass, belittle, manipulate, or intimidate someone else; especially for their own personal gain or enjoyment.

And I'm responsible. Which is badass.

The more you state that you are a badass, the less i believe you. You may have some of the young kids here convinced, but i honestly think you are full of crap.

All you people who "feel" christ. You either have brain tumor, or you're just feeling your stupidity.

Maybe you should avoid the heroin.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

You're delusional. Cutting you would feel good.

Yes...hurt those who try to love you.

Good philosophy !

Snoopy, maybe you can go troll somewhere else.

DNFTT

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Love bullshit ? Ummm...no. That's not what it's about.

God IS reality, whether you want to believe that or not. You can see His work everywhere...that you refuse to acknowledge this is the reason you are going to Hell. I didn't make that rule, God did. So you can stop hating me, or at least stop projecting your hatred of God (whom you claim doesn't exist) on me.

How could you possibly know whether I understand true love or not ?

I have three beautiful children, whom I love like I love no other. Is that true love ?

I love my husband more than I love myself.

Is that not true love ?

You don't know anything about my understanding of love. I only know about your understanding of the Bible by what you have posted...which is ignorant, at best.

I have posted nothing about my understanding of love, so that is a completely unfounded assumption.

But we have come to expect that from you, so don't think this has surprised me.

That's not fact, that's your opinion, which is based on ancient fabrications. Who are you to say where I'm going? You're nobody. You believe in something so blindly, that you can be cheated into Hell and oblivion by it. Questioning that which oils the gears is the basic human instinct. To deny this instinct, is to deny humanity. If humanity was a religion, you would be the heretic. Religious people deny our basic emotions which is what makes us human in the first place. Religions are inhuman.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

We "feel" God, and you don't.

Doesn't that worry you, since it is by your OWN choice that you do not ?

I feel such better things than you feel. Let's supposed that Hell is real, and that I'm going there. Let me tell you one thing. There are things in this life, human things, that are worthy of going to hell for. There are such feelings in this world, that a million heavens for all eternity couldn't top. And I feel sorry for you, for you're going to die without knowing these sweet things.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

If a person comes up to me and says: "I believe that fucking children should be legal", then I'm going to tell him he's a fucking idiot and punch him in the face.

If a person comes up to me and says: "I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and everyone who denies him will burn in hell for all eternity", then I'm going to kick their face in.

Beliefs can be wrong, and in 99% of the time, they are wrong. Stop believing in stupid shit that has no fucking relevance to anything. I mean, seriously. How the fuck is religion relevant to anything in life? Makes no sense. Go out, get high, get drunk, get laid, enjoy yourself. Fuck, do sports, go to a BBQ, drive a fast car, listen to music. Why waste your time with what people 5000 years ago believed was fact. Are you a moron or something?

Anyone with half a fucking brain knows that religion is fucking idiotic.

I said fuck 7 times, not counting this last one!



And this is your belief.

And who cares how many times you said fuck?

Does the use of this word go against the 2nd commandment.. or any of them, for that matter?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Yes...hurt those who try to love you.

Good philosophy !

Love has to be mutual. If he still loves me after I crack his bones, more power to him I guess. Christians try to love "everyone". That's so inhuman. You cannot even know love without knowing hate, and vice versa.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Snoopy, maybe you can go troll somewhere else.

DNFTT

I have a will over what I do. Or maybe not. The important thing is that I'm doing it. The debate over what motivates it isn't really all that important. I am here, and you'd better recognize, for I am the greatest of badass motherfuckers.

Can I get an aaamen?!

That almost sounded like can I get your hymen.

quote:Originally posted by vice:

Some of scientific accuracies (could not be bothered to type it)

http://tinyurl.com/dgg2t

Although we are getting way off track, thanks to a troll, did you bother to read some of these things? They aren't that amazing. The first one can only be interpreted after the fact. The second one is just wrong (the earth isn't suspended in nothing as Spacetime itself is something, and within spacetime exists things such as the higgs field. The earth is really suspended in a sea of fields and the fabric of space. Others are reinterpetation of passages sometimes picking them out of their context.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

And this is your belief.

And who cares how many times you said fuck?

Does the use of this word go against the 2nd commandment.. or any of them, for that matter?

I don't believe. I either know or feel. To believe is to doubt. Doubt is for the weak.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Nope. The only thing an atheist says is that they lack a belief in God or Gods, nothing more.

But to answer the question, well it's a hard answer. First we need to realize that everyone is a subjective moralist and the only difference is why does their thinking for them.

If there is no God, then there is no moral absolute. If there is a God, then there may or may not be a moral absolute... that would depend on if that God had determined a moral absolute or not.

Not quite, God chose Noah and took along his family out of pitty basically (they just got lucky enough to be family). Noah sinned not too long after he got off the ark, I guess he really wasn't a christian either.

You're right, technically he wasnt Christian because God had not sent His Son for our salvation yet.

But, as Digital pointed out, Christians do sin just like everyone else.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

The bible is a novel, not a scientific book. It contains no knowledge, it's a work of fiction. People who try to interpret this fiction as fact, are ignorant, hence the bible is a compilation of ignorance. On it's own, it's nothing. A book is nothing until it's read. Through it's followers, it is ignorant. You are ignorant in other words. You're not yet developed mentally to understand this, and by all chance, you never will be.

You shame humanity.

And you call how you treat people, as 'humane'?

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Although we are getting way off track, thanks to a troll, did you bother to read some of these things? They aren't that amazing. The first one can only be interpreted after the fact. The second one is just wrong (the earth isn't suspended in nothing as Spacetime itself is something, and within spacetime exists things such as the higgs field. The earth is really suspended in a sea of fields and the fabric of space. Others are reinterpetation of passages sometimes picking them out of their context.

I went through them a while back. Guess I did not look into it more. The fabric is a force, not an object, so maybe you could say that it is nothing (visible). suspended in nothingness.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

And you call how you treat people, as 'humane'?

To treat people with love is human, as is to treat them with hate. Both are human emotions. To create a balance, you must use both. To only love would be inhuman.

On the topic of "Being a good person vs. Being a Christian":

in the voice of elmer fudd... "Shhh, be vewy vewy quiet, i'm hunting snoopies"

All hail snoopy cos, etc etc

Although you could say that that the earth is suspended in nothing visible. A force is interchangeable with "matter" since most forces have a transmission particle. Matter and energy are interchangeable as well.

Many of the articles I have read which try to find a materialistic way to prove faith in the bible, all fall on their asses trying to distort the bible or science to fit their view. So it's not just that one that was at fault. Not to mention the fact that the bible treats faith as something that doesn't need to be proven.

Apologetics in general is full of double edged swords.



quote:Originally posted by vice:

I went through them a while back. Guess I did not look into it more. The fabric is a force, not an object, so maybe you could say that it is nothing (visible). suspended in nothingness.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Do you believe the Borg exist?

No. Do you?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

No. Do you?



What's the difference between believing in the Borg and believing in God? Both are human fabrications.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

To treat people with love is human, as is to treat them with hate. Both are human emotions. To create a balance, you must use both. To only love would be inhuman.



did i say human or humane?

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

What's the difference between believing in the Borg and believing in God? Both are human fabrications.



You said that you either know or feel. I know God exists. I also know that i did not fabricate Him.

I also feel the Holy Spirit's presence. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

You said that you either know or feel. I know God exists. I also know that i did not fabricate Him.

I also feel the Holy Spirit's presence. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

No, you just call your emotions "God" and "holy spirit". You can call them boogers for all I care, they have got jack shit to do with the "biblical God".

You know emotions exist, because you can feel them. You can call emotions "God" if you like. It's just a play on words.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

No, you just call your emotions "God" and "holy spirit". You can call them boogers for all I care, they have got jack shit to do with the "biblical God".

You know emotions exist, because you can feel them. You can call emotions "God" if you like. It's just a play on words.



No, I know the difference between my emotions and my Knowledge.

Without you having the expirience, there is no way for me to describe it to you. In fact, i have only met one other person that has had this, and even that was difficult. And i have only read of one other that sounded even remotely close, but because of this, i know that it is the same.

^^^ oh, and BTW, it does not make me any better than anyone else. It is just that i know that i am a (lowly) sower and serf.

How do you know I don't have the experience? I at the age of 21 have more experience than most people will ever hope to have, in all kinds of life situations. What you're showing now is pure religious arrogance. The all famous "it cannot be felt unless you're part of us". I don't need to be Christian to "feel God". And he feels dry anyway. There's far better things to feel in this life.

By the way, keep knowledge and feelings separated. Feelings tend to cheat you. You're just a tool of someone else's ideology.

"Nothing is as funny as unhappiness."

-Samuel Beckett

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

On the topic of "Being a good person vs. Being a Christian":

in the voice of elmer fudd... "Shhh, be vewy vewy quiet, i'm hunting snoopies"

LMAO

You've been very eloquent in this thread...not that you are usually not...just more so in THIS thread.

Hats off to you.

Digi, you keep talking about how a christian should or could be, but you're forgetting that has no bearing on what they ARE.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

"Nothing is as funny as unhappiness."

-Samuel Beckett

Are you saying that the people who "haven't found God" are unhappy? Yet another idiotic idea spread by tools.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Are you saying that the people who "haven't found God" are unhappy? Yet another idiotic idea spread by tools.

NO i'm not.

You seem lik a real friendly guy, thats all

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

No, you just call your emotions "God" and "holy spirit". You can call them boogers for all I care, they have got jack shit to do with the "biblical God".

You know emotions exist, because you can feel them. You can call emotions "God" if you like. It's just a play on words.

What you fail to understand about Christianity is that it is not simply "feeling" God.

You can see Him work in your life...things happen that just couldn't be a simple coincidence.

For instance, I have been debating with a Jew outside of Totse pretty heatedly about Paul the Apostle. I don't know if you are aware of the Jews' disdain for him or not, but suffice it to say they think he was the undoer of Judaism.

Anyway, I struggled with a way to explain Paul, since I have never had to really concern myself with it before. I had little to no knowledge of how to defend him, but I knew in my heart he was an Apostle of God, and his teachings were valid.

So, I prayed. I asked God to give me discernment, wisdom, and to point me in the right direction.

And I tell you, the VERY NEXT DAY a radio program came on, validating the teachings of Paul - giving scriptures, cross references, and evidence.

I haven't heard a sermon on the person of Paul in years.

Now, please tell me how that could have been ANYTHING but God ?

Now, you could say, "Well, that's IS just a coincidence. You WANTED it to be from God."

However, these things happen all the time. ALL THE TIME.

I never experienced this before, when I lived my life without God in it.

I never hear atheist's talking about bizarre coincidences that happen to them, when they ASK for them to happen !

It's not just a feeling...the evidence is set forth with our very lives.

You truly are ridiculous.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Digi, you keep talking about how a christian should or could be, but you're forgetting that has no bearing on what they ARE.

Sure.

That is very true.

I am being a prime example of it right now.

I OUGHT to be kind to Snoop, and take his persecution as a blessing.

However, I have reached a human limitation in my personality, where I can't just sit idly by and allow him to be defamatory to me anymore.

Is it wrong ? Yeah.

Am I liking it ? Yeah.

Is that wrong that I like it ? Yeah.

But this sin, and all other sins I have committed or will commit, have been forgiven.

I repent of mine daily, and they are gone.

I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, and so is anyone else who believes in Him.

Do I feel bad for arguing with Snoop ? Yeah. But I still like it.

That's a human for ya.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Are you saying that the people who "haven't found God" are unhappy? Yet another idiotic idea spread by tools.

You take pleasure in ridiculing other people for their beliefs.

It has been my experience that only people who hate THEMSELVES do this. My father was like you. I was like you, once.

People that hate themselves have not been freed by the power of God's love and mercy.

This human condition is not selective. It affects us all, and there is only one way to true happiness.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

You truly are ridiculous.

I will try to remember you said that when I am in Heaven, looking down.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

What you fail to understand about Christianity is that it is not simply "feeling" God.

You can see Him work in your life...things happen that just couldn't be a simple coincidence.

For instance, I have been debating with a Jew outside of Totse pretty heatedly about Paul the Apostle. I don't know if you are aware of the Jews' disdain for him or not, but suffice it to say they think he was the undoer of Judaism.

Anyway, I struggled with a way to explain Paul, since I have never had to really concern myself with it before. I had little to no knowledge of how to defend him, but I knew in my heart he was an Apostle of God, and his teachings were valid.

So, I prayed. I asked God to give me discernment, wisdom, and to point me in the right direction.

And I tell you, the VERY NEXT DAY a radio program came on, validating the teachings of Paul - giving scriptures, cross references, and evidence.

I haven't heard a sermon on the person of Paul in years.

Now, please tell me how that could have been ANYTHING but God ?

Now, you could say, "Well, that's IS just a coincidence. You WANTED it to be from God."

However, these things happen all the time. ALL THE TIME.

I never experienced this before, when I lived my life without God in it.

I never hear atheist's talking about bizarre coincidences that happen to them, when they ASK for them to happen !

It's not just a feeling...the evidence is set forth with our very lives.

Yeah, the other day I was watching wheel of fortune, and I just kept guessing which letter that nice old lady was going to pick. And I got it right every time. Yeah, now I believe in God too! I'd better convert to Christianity, because all the other religions that believe in the same God will get me sent to hell, because only Christianity is right!

Or maybe the idiots on wheel of fortune always pick the same letters and are just very predictable like all these religious fuckheads.

Ask God to give you money and a husband with a big cock.

Ever play poker? Poker proves there is no God. Ever play Poker on LSD? Playing poker on LSD proves brugs can't fart.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I will try to remember you said that when I am in Heaven, looking down.

You are too blind to see Heaven all around you.

Burgs? What the hell are brugs? I meant frogs. God damn sparkle, shifting all my gears.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

You are too blind to see Heaven all around you.

LOL

Earth is NOT heaven.

Too much suffering and pain to be considered any kind of heaven.

I feel sorry for you if you think this is it. That is not an insult...I really feel sorry for you.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Burgs? What the hell are brugs? I meant frogs. God damn sparkle, shifting all my gears.

I was wondering the same thing. LOL

Actually, you said BRUGS, not BURGS.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

LOL

Earth is NOT heaven.

Too much suffering and pain to be considered any kind of heaven.

I feel sorry for you if you think this is it. That is not an insult...I really feel sorry for you.

You're too stupid to understand emotions. You cannot feel the good emotions, without the bad. When you help someone who is dying of hunger in Africa, you feel good. If there was no one to help, you'd just be bored. How would you know what darkness was, if you never saw light? You wouldn't. But you cannot grasp this. The veil of Christ has blinded you to how life functions. You're just a dumb cow. Just sit there and moo to your God.

Suffering and pain are just as good as joy.

I remember when my dad made me move to Georgia with him, it was my first year of high school. I was so depressed and just wished it would be overwith.

After it was over, I realized how great it was and how I could never get that time back because I spent it all looking forward to something else.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

[B] LOL

Earth is NOT heaven.

I know snoopyz gonna love this

It is if you love someone.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by malaria:

[B]Suffering and pain are just as good as joy.



"Purple Haze" by Jimi Hendrix

That was unintentional, I don't even like Jimi Hendrix.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

That was unintentional, I don't even like Jimi Hendrix.

Just an observation

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Suffering and pain are just as good as joy.

I remember when my dad made me move to Georgia with him, it was my first year of high school. I was so depressed and just wished it would be overwith.

After it was over, I realized how great it was and how I could never get that time back because I spent it all looking forward to something else.

Suffering and pain compliment joy and happiness. Without one, the other cannot truly exist - ON EARTH.

Heaven is a completely different ball of wax.

Heaven sounds boring. I like pain and suffering. It's an integral part of my humanity. I don't know what I'd do without it.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

You're too stupid to understand emotions. You cannot feel the good emotions, without the bad. When you help someone who is dying of hunger in Africa, you feel good. If there was no one to help, you'd just be bored. How would you know what darkness was, if you never saw light? You wouldn't. But you cannot grasp this. The veil of Christ has blinded you to how life functions. You're just a dumb cow. Just sit there and moo to your God.

What I am saying is that the presence of pain in this world cancels it's ability to be compared to Heaven.

Heaven is painless.

I can grasp it, and HAVE on many occasions, here in this forum. I am sorry you didn't see it.

It must make you feel better to think I am so stupid...even though it is clear that I am not.

Hahaha, you say that like you would know. You really are a complete tool.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

What I am saying is that the presence of pain in this world cancels it's ability to be compared to Heaven.

Heaven is painless.

I can grasp it, and HAVE on many occasions, here in this forum. I am sorry you didn't see it.

It must make you feel better to think I am so stupid...even though it is clear that I am not.

A life without pain would suck.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Heaven sounds boring. I like pain and suffering. It's an integral part of my humanity. I don't know what I'd do without it.

Clinging to your humanity is all you've got, which is why you don't want to let it go, so you can move on to better things.

It is human to want to stay in a comfort zone.

You think it was easy for me to become a Christian ?

It wasn't.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It must make you feel better to think I am so stupid...even though it is clear that I am not.

You are actually. And read my thread to finally figure out why I'm acting like this to you.

I enjoy being human, and while I will be happy to do my thing in the afterlife, I will not pass up my life now for that.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Clinging to your humanity is all you've got, which is why you don't want to let it go, so you can move on to better things.

It is human to want to stay in a comfort zone.

You think it was easy for me to become a Christian ?

It wasn't.

I don't want anything better than being human. It kicks ass being human. You wouldn't know anything about it though, seen as how you aren't one.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Hahaha, you say that like you would know. You really are a complete tool.

It's in the Bible. Since I believe it to be the infallible word of God, I have no reason not to.

In light of this, I do know.

And it is good to see that you come out of the woodwork in full force, if only to ridicule a Christian. I haven't seen you post this much since...well, the last time you tried to ride my azz like Zorro.

You must be afraid of me, too !

I am just stepping on all KINDS of toes today !

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

A life without pain would suck.

We are having our fill of pain here, right now.

Why does it need to go on for eternity, in order for you to feel fulfilled ?

We earn our penance here...plenty of pain to go around.

Heaven is like "retirement".

I was on vacation.

It's not about criticizing Christians, you are just an enormous thorn in the side of this forum.

Almost everyone I know is Christian, and I couldn't be happier for them. They aren't pompous or arrogant about it, however.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

I enjoy being human, and while I will be happy to do my thing in the afterlife, I will not pass up my life now for that.

Who said you had to ?

I have a life. *lol*

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

We are having our fill of pain here, right now.

Why does it need to go on for eternity, in order for you to feel fulfilled ?

We earn our penance here...plenty of pain to go around.

Heaven is like "retirement".

It sucks being retired. Heaven sounds like the most out of balance extreme there is. And when you point this out, you people just say that it's "beyond human grasp". Well, ain't that an easy argument in a debate?

I hope you 2 aren't gonna start again.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I don't want anything better than being human. It kicks ass being human. You wouldn't know anything about it though, seen as how you aren't one.

If you had the option for something better, you would want it.

Retirement always seems like a good idea until you do it, much like anything else. I know many people who are working again after retiring, and only one or two who are still retired (they have no choice, though).

You say you have a life, but you worry too much to enjoy it. Seriously.

What the hell kind of 26 year old has three kids anyway?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

If you had the option for something better, you would want it.

The only thing better than human, would be Saiyan. You are familiar with Dragon Ball Z, are you not? Oh man, it would be so badass being a Saiyan-Jin. I'd transform to Super Saiyan 4 instantly and fly around the universe blowing shit up, like I had a purpose. I could probably create my own universe if I was a Saiyan, and have stupid shits bow to me with the idea that when they die, they can kick as much ass as I do.

Oh shit, I wanna be a Super Saiyan now!

Being a Good Person vs. Being Christian



Answers please.

I say Being a Good Person > Being Christian because some christians are sinners which makes those particular christians hypocrites, where as if you are good god will no doubt be pleased.

Ok, to the title question:

Being a good person is something that you can't wear as a badge. Christian is just a title with no meaning left in it. It has been corrupted.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

I was on vacation.

It's not about criticizing Christians, you are just an enormous thorn in the side of this forum.

Almost everyone I know is Christian, and I couldn't be happier for them. They aren't pompous or arrogant about it, however.

If being convicted means being pompous and arrogant, then they aren't convicted.

I am also not pompous and arrogant. I am convinced of my position.

I don't see you accusing any of these guys of being pompous and arrogant, which they clearly are, so it MUST be that you have something against my Christianity, specifically. Rust is pompous and arrogant. You don't call HIM on it. Snoop is arrogant, and you haven't called HIM on it.

I am supposed to be a thorn in the side of this world...so, thank you for affirming how effectual I have been here.

I must also point out that I am only seen as a thorn in the side to people who don't like what I have to say about Christianity.

I have received plenty of compliments on this site about the way I project Christianity, so I guess it is all up to perception. Those that have something to be offended about, are.

If the Christians you know aren't witnessing to you, then they are lukewarm, and it is worse for them than it is for an unbeliever, according to the Bible.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I am also not pompous and arrogant.

When you look up arrogant in the dictionary, there's a picture of you as the definition.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

It sucks being retired. Heaven sounds like the most out of balance extreme there is. And when you point this out, you people just say that it's "beyond human grasp". Well, ain't that an easy argument in a debate?

It is obvious to those who have read the Bible that heaven is not boring.

It is not sitting around doing nothing.

We will live, just as we do now, only without disease, deformity, and emotional/physical/mental pain and suffering.

I don't see how that's boring.

If you like your life being a soap opera, then fine.

I personally can't wait to have it easier.

Because Rust doesn't preach to me. Snoopy is having his way with you, you're just too blind to see it. Look past the insults, he really does have something to say back there.

They don't preach to me, though. You do.

You show no respect to me, so you get none in return. That is why I get on your case.

And you are extremely pompous and arrogant.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It is obvious to those who have read the Bible that heaven is not boring.

It is not sitting around doing nothing.

We will live, just as we do now, only without disease, deformity, and emotional/physical/mental pain and suffering.

I don't see how that's boring.

If you like your life being a soap opera, then fine.

I personally can't wait to have it easier.

Live the same life for an eternity? Hah! Can you commit suicide in heaven? Cause I couldn't last 10 years there. Everything must die.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Retirement always seems like a good idea until you do it, much like anything else. I know many people who are working again after retiring, and only one or two who are still retired (they have no choice, though).

You say you have a life, but you worry too much to enjoy it. Seriously.

What the hell kind of 26 year old has three kids anyway?

Excuse me ? Who are YOU to pass judgement on ME ?

Wanna talk about being arrogant ?!

I don't need to explain my life to you...

Again, resorting to personal attacks is common for people who have nothing better to say.

As for retirement, that was a simple analogy. Heaven will be nothing like the lonely, empty, endless retirement we experience here on earth.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

We will live, just as we do now, only without disease, deformity, and emotional/physical/mental pain and suffering.

So you're saying we should've let the Nazis win..?

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

Being a Good Person vs. Being Christian



Answers please.

I say Being a Good Person > Being Christian because some christians are sinners which makes those particular christians hypocrites, where as if you are good god will no doubt be pleased.

Then you don't know what it means to be a Christian.

Read a Bible.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Excuse me ? Who are YOU to pass judgement on ME ?

Wanna talk about being arrogant ?!

I don't need to explain my life to you...

That's funny, it makes sense to you when it's turned against you.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Ok, to the title question:

Being a good person is something that you can't wear as a badge. Christian is just a title with no meaning left in it. It has been corrupted.

It is a faith, not a title.

There is plenty left in it, for those who believe in and obey God's commandments.

Everything, in contrast, is corrupted to some extent.

I guess we should just stop existing, then.

Yes, you should stop existing.

Digital saviour

Being a Good Person vs. Being Christian



Answer with reason.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Because Rust doesn't preach to me. Snoopy is having his way with you, you're just too blind to see it. Look past the insults, he really does have something to say back there.

They don't preach to me, though. You do.

You show no respect to me, so you get none in return. That is why I get on your case.

And you are extremely pompous and arrogant.

In random posts elsewhere in this forum, I was perfectly nice to you.

You were a complete dick to me the first time you posted anything to me...why SHOULD I be nice to you (even though I have in the past, despite YOUR lack of respect) ?

I am not preaching here. You can see it that way if you want to, but that's not what I am doing.

This is also a free forum. If only people you wanted to hear were allowed to post, how stupid would that be ? If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it. Unless you are a masochist...

And just because you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean you have the right to personally attack me. Does it ? I bet you consider yourself a good person, too. *lol*

To be pompous and arrogant would mean that I think I am better than everyeone else. I don't, so there goes your theory.

You're not going to get a sensible answer from her.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Live the same life for an eternity? Hah! Can you commit suicide in heaven? Cause I couldn't last 10 years there. Everything must die.

I didn't mean it in that context, and you know it...

I mean, we won't just be standing around like zombies, looking at God.

We will "exist"...we will be living. We will have things to do.

There is no death in heaven. We will be souls, not flesh and bone humans.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

So you're saying we should've let the Nazis win..?

Are you saying they were justified in murdering Jews ?

What the hell does this convo have to do with you, anyway ?

I haven't had an argument of this magnitude with anyone in quite a while...it was between me and Snoop.

You butted yourself in, and took offense to what I was saying in response to HIM.

I certainly didn't set the tone for this thread...I responded to HIM.

Digital saviour,

In random posts elsewhere in this forum, I was perfectly nice to you.

You were a complete dick to me the first time you posted anything to me...why SHOULD I be nice to you (even though I have in the past, despite YOUR lack of respect) ?

I am not preaching here. You can see it that way if you want to, but that's not what I am doing.

this is n't about being nice to each other. This IS a forum in which people make points to each other and explain them.

[This message has been edited by Lou Reed (edited 07-04-2005).]

I like hearing other people's opinions. You go too far and become disrespectful but hold this front of being a kind and gentle creature. It's such bull.

You also don't know the meaning of pompous or arrogant.

I am a good person. Maybe sometime you will learn something from me, you would consider that good. No one is completely good, just remember that.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

That's funny, it makes sense to you when it's turned against you.

When did I EVER take someone's specific life events and tell them that they were wrong ?

NEVER.

I don't judge people like that, and you know it.

It was a joke based on you saying life will be the same except without deformity, pain, etc. Look at some Nazi propaganda. It wasn't a serious post.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

Digital saviour

Being a Good Person vs. Being Christian



Answer with reason.

I did. Page 1.

--------------------------------------------

If you are a good person, and live without Christ, you will find yourself in Hell after you die.

Isaiah 64:6 - "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

Romans 3:23 - "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Basically, you are born into sin. Without Christ in your heart, who washes you clean of your sin in God's eyes, everything you do that can be considered good comes from YOU, and YOU are still a sinful being without Christ, so your good works still have the blemish of sin upon them. Good works are tainted by man's sin, unless the good works are cleansed under the blood of Christ.

As long as the good you do comes from yourself, it will do nothing to gain your salvation.

We become truly righteous not through our own righteousness, but through the power of Christ's righteousness. Therefore, to become more like Christ we must partake of the divine nature of Christ (2 Peter 1:4) and his righteousness.

To be righteous is to be right with God. To be right with God comes by accepting both Christ's grace and by obeying his commandments, following his teachings and doing the will of the Father.

In contrast, if you are a Christian, and are not a good person (which is almost impossible...once the spirit dwells within you, you have a heightened sense of conscience, and it is much more difficult to commit sin - the burden of guilt becomes tenfold), you are still going to heaven.

Why ?

Because it is your FAITH in Christ's redemption that pays for your sins...you can do nothing to earn your way into heaven.

Psalm 14:3 - All (not "some" !) have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

We are encouraged to do good, because it is a principle that makes everyone's lives better (believers, and unbelievers alike).

The commandments given to us in the Old Testament help us to stay healthy - mentally, physically, and emotionally.

Jeremiah 29:11 - For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you..."

Only when we are healthy in all three areas can we have a truly fulfilling relationship with God.

Otherwise, we are distracted by guilt, worry, and doubt.

If you believe in Christ, you will go to heaven, whether you are spiritually, physically, or mentally healthy or not.

Now shut up bitch

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

When did I EVER take someone's specific life events and tell them that they were wrong ?

NEVER.

I don't judge people like that, and you know it.

My beliefs are an integral part of my life, jackass.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

You're not going to get a sensible answer from her.

And you're not going to get a legitimate answer from HIM, since he bases his morality on himself, and not on God.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I didn't mean it in that context, and you know it...

I mean, we won't just be standing around like zombies, looking at God.

We will "exist"...we will be living. We will have things to do.

There is no death in heaven. We will be souls, not flesh and bone humans.

So, we will be less than we are now? I like my flesh and bones. I can do cool things with it. Like cut the flash and break the bones.

I already gave my answer. I don't need verses to back it up, it's common sense.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

this is n't about being nice to each other. This IS a forum in which people make points to each other and explain them.



I agree.

I do that, daily.

None of the people who "listen" have a prob with it. Just as I don't have a problem listening to them.

When they make it personal, it is very hard to refrain from defending oneself.

Wouldn't you agree ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I agree.

I do that, daily.

None of the people who "listen" have a prob with it. Just as I don't have a problem listening to them.

When they make it personal, it is very hard to refrain from defending oneself.

Wouldn't you agree ?



I suppose

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

I like hearing other people's opinions. You go too far and become disrespectful but hold this front of being a kind and gentle creature. It's such bull.

You also don't know the meaning of pompous or arrogant.

I am a good person. Maybe sometime you will learn something from me, you would consider that good. No one is completely good, just remember that.

I don't consider anything about me to be good. That is why I needed Christ's redemption. Now I can only TRY to be good, and hope that is enough.

I don't go too far with people that are reasonable. Snoop has been ridiculing me personally for months now, and I haven't said two words to him in response. I finally do, and YOU have the audacity to tell me I am being a thorn ? *pfft*

I have no front. I am not a kind and gentle creature. What I DO say is that I am here for a reason, and that reason is you guys. I couldn't do it without the love of Christ. It is a great burden to bear...you don't seem to realize that.

I do know the meaning of the words pompous and arrogant.

POMPOUS - Characterized by excessive self-esteem or exaggerated dignity; pretentious.

EXCESSIVE SELF ESTEEM ?!! *LMAO* I don't think so.

EXAGGERATED DIGNITY ? Ummm....no.

ARROGANT - Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.

If I cared at all about myself, I wouldn't be here talking to YOU guys. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

It has been my experience here on Totse that only those who hate Christians say that about me. Everyone else doesn't seem to have a problem.

Maybe you should go through the archives...what is going on here today is rare.

I just happened to be on here today...

OH WAIT! Maybe it was no coincidence and my gods wanted you to realize you're wrong so they had snoopy and I gang up on you!

Ha.

Anyway, you keep playing your 'us vs the world' card and it just doesn't work. You are the majority, so cut the shit.

EDIT: I have things to attend to, now, so we can continue our love affair another day. Or you could just leave your hubby and kids and meet me in sin in Missouri. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

[This message has been edited by malaria (edited 07-04-2005).]

you are talking shit again

ds

[This message has been edited by Lou Reed (edited 07-04-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

I just happened to be on here today...

OH WAIT! Maybe it was no coincidence and my gods wanted you to realize you're wrong so they had snoopy and I gang up on you!

Ha.

Anyway, you keep playing your 'us vs the world' card and it just doesn't work. You are the majority, so cut the shit.

EDIT: I have things to attend to, now, so we can continue our love affair another day. Or you could just leave your hubby and kids and meet me in sin in Missouri. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



There are 3 Christians here. I would say that we are DEFINITELY A MINORITY.

As for the rest of the world, just because people SAY they are Christian, doesn't mean they are. We've been over this. God-haters are definitely the majority.

I am in sin in Oregon...I like it better here. I lived in Columbia for a while, and it was a craphole.

But you can stay in my garage. As long as my husband knows, I think he will be cool with it.

*LMAO*

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

you are talking shit again

ds



Haven't you noticed that I am not paying attention to you, Lou ?

Here's your hint.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Why is that "fucked up"?

If someone kills one person, we call them a murderer.

Can the murderer bring the dead person back to life?

If someone steals, we call them a thief.

If the thief returns what was stolen, will the court still say that nothing was taken?

If someone lies, we call them a liar.

How many truths have to be told, to make up for the one lie?

What i'm saying is, in God's eyes, one little sin, is still sin.

Jesus died once, in order to cleanse each and every sin. This includes the "one little lie" as well as the murder.

It is God that determined what Sin is. And it is God who determined the way to Heaven.

I just see it as being strange that say, a rapist priest or a logger who's fucking everybody over by cutting down the rainforests, or other such people who may consider themselves Christians would, in Christian theory, go to heaven, while an atheist or someone of another religion (take Bhuddism for an example) may be non-violent, considerate of other people/their environments, do good deeds, etc. would go to hell. I'm not talking about the gray area where you have two normal people who have their own share of sins, nor have I said that people do not sin. I'm well aware of the basics of Christianity. I'm talking about the two extremes where one is Christian and one isn't. Make sense?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Jesus didn't do 'good' deeds for self-gradification. Jesus did all he did to glorify the Father. He did everything he did out of a PURE heart, love.

Eample: Yesterday, I told my mother I would clean for her, and she could take me to sports com. (My heart was wrong.)

So I clean the house and, after finishing, God convicted me. He said, "Shelly you did something out of what you called love, expecting something in return. You didn't have the right attitude." Well, I've learned you can't argue with God. So I told my mother, I will not go to sports com, because I did what I did 'for her' out of the wrong attitude of my heart.

Love is completely selfless. Everything Jesus did was completely selfless, it was love. He commands us to walk in that love. There's a difference between doing something 'good' to please people and glorify God, as there is a difference between doing something good out of the goodness of your heart, rather than doing something 'good' expecting something, or anything in return.

Where did I say that he did good for self gratification?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

So, my calling atheist's, in general, ignorant was not an insult, either. It is truth. Stereotypes aren't created for no reason.

It seems to me that you're really just calling atheists ignorant because of the fact that they don't believe the bible. Many of the atheists I know (I am not one, myself) have read the bible, as well as various books making a case for atheism. One atheist I know read such literature when he was in eighth grade. Ignorant? I think not. Most atheists who really stand by their position will actually go and read the bible, and many know more about it than many Christians.

I've never heard of atheists as being stereotyped as ignorant, so I don't personally see how this claim is justified.

I also find your statement of 'It is truth.' concerning the ignorance of atheists. Stereotypes aren't on a whole, true. If it is true that the stereotype of all atheists as being ignorant is true, than it is also true that such stereotypes as all Mexicans being lazy, all Jews being greedy, all Americans being fat and lazy... the list goes on and on, and there is really no truth in the statement that stereotypes have any validity to them.

so he is going to heaven flail.com/ pictures/hitler.gif

and he is not www.petama.ch/ (http://www.petama.ch/) EM-Brotherhood.htm

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Love has to be mutual. If he still loves me after I crack his bones, more power to him I guess. Christians try to love "everyone". That's so inhuman. You cannot even know love without knowing hate, and vice versa.

I don't reckon I'm a him, but people do assume. I tell ya this much snoopy, I'm called to the mission field, it's been confirmed by 3 people. I love people, because I carry the heart of God. It isn't my love, it's Christ's love for you flowing through me.. I'm just a vessel, nothing more. If you'd give your life to God, I'd let your torment me in any way thinkable, because that's ONE more soul in the kingdom of God.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

How do you know I don't have the experience? I at the age of 21 have more experience than most people will ever hope to have, in all kinds of life situations. What you're showing now is pure religious arrogance. The all famous "it cannot be felt unless you're part of us". I don't need to be Christian to "feel God". And he feels dry anyway. There's far better things to feel in this life.

By the way, keep knowledge and feelings separated. Feelings tend to cheat you. You're just a tool of someone else's ideology.



Wow, when i left, there was only 5 pages.

For one thing, i know that you have not had this experience, because there is no way that you would be able to deny the existance of God. For another reason, of all the people that i've talked to, so few have expressed anything that has remotely come close, and even fewer (like i said, one and one that i've read of) have had it.

21 eh? Ya, maybe you've had alot of experiences in your life, but so have i at your age. Big deal. You've had experiences. All that gives you is a potential for wisdom.

1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

And no, this is not arrogance. If it were arrogance, i would have been bragging about it from the moment i had it. That was about 3 years ago. The more i know about this gift and of God, the more i am held accountable. And as far as i can remember, i didnt ask for this. But when i recieved it, i asked God to "turn down the volume". It was overwhelming. And immediately, it was "turned down".

As far as, "There's far better things to feel in this life", you have no idea!

quote:By the way, keep knowledge and feelings separated. Feelings tend to cheat you. You're just a tool of someone else's ideology

The knowledge and feeling that i know, is more ONE, than can be explained. If i were to compare a ripple in a water glass to the entire ocean being one wave, it still does not come close.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Sure.

That is very true.

I am being a prime example of it right now.

I OUGHT to be kind to Snoop, and take his persecution as a blessing.



I'm sorry, Digital, but here i only partly agree with you.

yes, we should be gracious. and yes, we should be thankful for this blessing.

but, atleast, this is the way for dealing with this...

Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

When you help someone who is dying of hunger in Africa, you feel good.

I'm sorry, but i find this very hard to swallow.

The persona that you show on TOTSE is very difficult to picture helping anyone that either you dont know or cannot gain something from.

You might be that person, but i highly doubt it.

How would you know what darkness was, if you never saw light?



How would you know, have you seen the light?

You wouldn't. But you cannot grasp this. The veil of Christ has blinded you to how life functions. You're just a dumb cow. Just sit there and moo to your God.

Actually, sheep... and the sound is baaa.

21 years old, and you didnt even know this?

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

You are actually. And read my thread to finally figure out why I'm acting like this to you.



You said you read the Bible.

Reading and comprehending are not the same thing. Just like hearing and listening.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

I enjoy being human, and while I will be happy to do my thing in the afterlife, I will not pass up my life now for that.



And you think Christians have?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

There are 3 Christians here. I would say that we are DEFINITELY A MINORITY.

As for the rest of the world, just because people SAY they are Christian, doesn't mean they are. We've been over this. God-haters are definitely the majority.



You claim that "just because people SAY they are Christian, doesn't mean they are". So why should I believe you're Christian when you wont believe others he claim they are? After all that's exactly what you're doing... claiming you're Christian.

There are definitely more than 3 Christians here. But how humble of you to only count yourself and two others...

Jesus demands humbleness and you deliver. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by hungryhippie:

It seems to me that you're really just calling atheists ignorant because of the fact that they don't believe the bible. Many of the atheists I know (I am not one, myself) have read the bible, as well as various books making a case for atheism. One atheist I know read such literature when he was in eighth grade. Ignorant? I think not. Most atheists who really stand by their position will actually go and read the bible, and many know more about it than many Christians.

I've never heard of atheists as being stereotyped as ignorant, so I don't personally see how this claim is justified.

I also find your statement of 'It is truth.' concerning the ignorance of atheists. Stereotypes aren't on a whole, true. If it is true that the stereotype of all atheists as being ignorant is true, than it is also true that such stereotypes as all Mexicans being lazy, all Jews being greedy, all Americans being fat and lazy... the list goes on and on, and there is really no truth in the statement that stereotypes have any validity to them.



First, i think you gave me credit for somethings that were posted by HellzShellz. So, i'm going to leave those parts for Shellz.

Me: quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Why is that "fucked up"?

If someone kills one person, we call them a murderer.

Can the murderer bring the dead person back to life?

If someone steals, we call them a thief.

If the thief returns what was stolen, will the court still say that nothing was taken?

If someone lies, we call them a liar.

How many truths have to be told, to make up for the one lie?

What i'm saying is, in God's eyes, one little sin, is still sin.

Jesus died once, in order to cleanse each and every sin. This includes the "one little lie" as well as the murder.

It is God that determined what Sin is. And it is God who determined the way to Heaven.

You: quote:I just see it as being strange that say, a rapist priest or a logger who's fucking everybody over by cutting down the rainforests, or other such people who may consider themselves Christians would, in Christian theory, go to heaven, while an atheist or someone of another religion (take Bhuddism for an example) may be non-violent, considerate of other people/their environments, do good deeds, etc. would go to hell. I'm not talking about the gray area where you have two normal people who have their own share of sins, nor have I said that people do not sin. I'm well aware of the basics of Christianity. I'm talking about the two extremes where one is Christian and one isn't. Make sense?

Yes, you make sense. What i was pointing out, is, God has determined the only way to get to heaven, and that is accepting the Work Jesus did on the cross. He died for every sin. The weight people rank sin is wrong. Murder and "a little white lie" is Sin, period. One is no greater or less in God's eyes, and He is the Judge. It is not the rape, or murder or cutting down the rainforest that determines the weight of the sin. Just as one lie makes a liar; so too, one sin makes us sinners. If we are sinners, we need the gift of salvation.

Whether a person CONSIDERS themself a Christian, is not the way to heaven. Jesus is the way. Repentance of sins, and acceptance of Jesus the Christ as the Savior is the only way to Heaven. Jesus said that there will be many that will say to Him, i prophecied in your name. But He will say that He does not know them, because they did not truely know Him.

You said you were not talking about the grey area, but the extremes. If you can understand that it is not "the particular" sin that makes it worse, but the fact that it is Sin, period. I'm going to give a bad analogy, but i hope that this might make some sense:

Little dog takes a tiny crap and piss on the brand new carpet. Big dog takes a huge crap and a 3 gallon piss on the same expensive rug.

Does it really matter (for the sake of filth on a rug) the size of the dog's mistake?

No, the rug needs to be cleaned if you value the rug and the cleanliness of your house.

I'm pretty sure that the rest of your replies were not in response to something i said... if i'm wrong, please point it out.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Yes, you make sense. What i was pointing out, is, God has determined the only way to get to heaven, and that is accepting the Work Jesus did on the cross. He died for every sin. The weight people rank sin is wrong. Murder and "a little white lie" is Sin, period. One is no greater or less in God's eyes, and He is the Judge. It is not the rape, or murder or cutting down the rainforest that determines the weight of the sin. Just as one lie makes a liar; so too, one sin makes us sinners. If we are sinners, we need the gift of salvation.

Whether a person CONSIDERS themself a Christian, is not the way to heaven. Jesus is the way. Repentance of sins, and acceptance of Jesus the Christ as the Savior is the only way to Heaven. Jesus said that there will be many that will say to Him, i prophecied in your name. But He will say that He does not know them, because they did not truely know Him.

You said you were not talking about the grey area, but the extremes. If you can understand that it is not "the particular" sin that makes it worse, but the fact that it is Sin, period. I'm going to give a bad analogy, but i hope that this might make some sense:

Little dog takes a tiny crap and piss on the brand new carpet. Big dog takes a huge crap and a 3 gallon piss on the same expensive rug.

Does it really matter (for the sake of filth on a rug) the size of the dog's mistake?

No, the rug needs to be cleaned if you value the rug and the cleanliness of your house.

I'm pretty sure that the rest of your replies were not in response to something i said... if i'm wrong, please point it out.

Yeah, I see what your saying, now. Still seems a bit odd to me, but then again, I'm not Christian. Thanks for the input.

quote:Originally posted by hungryhippie:



Where did I say that he did good for self gratification?



You didin't have to. If an unbeliever is doing 'good' things, he/she isn't doing what they're doing for the glory of God. They aren't doing it from the goodness of their hearts either, because without Christ none are righteous, none are 'good'. Their minds are of this world, not of the Truth.

hungryhippie

Would you die for those who spat on you? Love even those who've hurt you in unspeakable ways, the same as you'd love someone who's been by your side through thick and thin?

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

What authority? God has no authority here. It's not like he comes down from heaven and say: "listen dipshits, you either do what the fuck I tell you or you get STUFFED!". The rules are made up by people. The bible was written by people. It's not God's rules, it's people's rules. You're an idiot to follow the rules of thousands of years ago, written by dumbasses.

God's authority on earth is through our prayers! This is why prayer is the FOUNDATION of being a disciple. God's authority is in heaven and he gave us authority on earth. When we make intercession we til the ground so that God can send labourers, or convict their hearts, heal, etc. Humans can't go nothing on their own. Christians are nothing more than vessels. Christ lives in us, and flows through us. Not by OUR power but by the one who lives within' us.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Heaven will be nothing like the lonely, empty, endless retirement we experience here on earth.

It sure sounds lonely and empty to me....

Listen, I don't really want to get in on this argument because I am but a wee, humble girl in Tennessee, but it seems to me, using logic, Snoopy won this argument. His arguments were clear and even eloquent at times and it just seemed that the Christian side just countered with a lot of "this is what I believe and so it must be right". I believe that's why Lou Reed and co. began to call y'all "arrogant". In my opinion, it IS arrogant just to automatically assume that Christianity is right and to not even really listen to the opinions of "atheists" or people with other belief systems. It seems to me that Snoopy had some really good points that you kind of just glazed over because you were so busy arguing.

You won't care about this, but to me, Christianity is darkness and foolishness.

That's all I really want to say.

Good-night.

So what about good people who've never heard of christ, special exemptions?

Heaven must have one hell of a beurocracy. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Sorry guys...I didn't write the Book. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

It isn't what you do, it is what is in your heart.

The Bible tells us that what comes from the mouth is a reflection of the condition of our heart.





When good peope do good things, its from their heart wether they're christian or not. So make up your mind, if you can only go to heaven by worshiping christ, then it is "what you do", and not "what's in you're heart".

Edit: The more I read that quote the more it pisses me off, even though I consider you an intelligent person digi. Pretty much what your saying is, If I'm I'm not christian then my good deeds don't come from my heart. What the flying fucktard?

To reiterate, a christians good deeds and intentions come from the heart to the same extent as anyone elses, try and argue this and you lose all credibility in my eyes. So which is the prerequisite to get into heaven, worshiping christ or being a genuinely good person (ie. from the heart)? Pick one awnser, because the combination is very condradictory.





[This message has been edited by great_sage=heaven (edited 07-06-2005).]

In the end, my conclusion is that christians are so dumb that it hurts, and sometimes the hurt is real.

Even though Jesus's teachings was based in parables, that is metaphores, christians still need to be told explicitly when not to take something literally. They read, read and read again their precious Bible and quote it till they bleed but they can't fuckin understand anything. How is it that they believe in the afterlife and resurrection when Jesus makes it clear that dead people walk the earth? How is it they arrogantly think only christians will be "saved" when simply following Jesus EVEN IF YOU NEVER HEARD HIS NAME is enough? I would have come to believe it is entirely because of stupidity but the harm christianity has done to the world can't be credited to stupidity alone. There are other motives guiding the stupid christian masses.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Um.. at one time I would have handed you the razor blade myself. Cutting isn't even temptation for me anymore.



All I can say for this entire thread is "That's ashame you didn't do it".

Thank you.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

While there are exceptions to every rule, once you have the spirit of God living in you, it is difficult to commit sin - and when you DO commit sin, you are immediately sorry for it, as opposed to being oblivious to the fact that you just sinned, which is often the case for unbelievers.

It's also often the case for believers. And by the way, if the non-believer doesn't believe in the morals of your religion anyhow, how are they, in their own eyes, sinning? You imply this when you say that we are oblivious to the fact that we have sinned. I don't agree with all of the morals of Christianity, so I may consider certain acts moral that you may not. Saying that we're oblivious to the fact that we sin is implying that we BELIEVE in sin, which is a nice piece of circular logic. Nice try.

Anyways, I know this may be straying from the topic, but I, while not being a Christian myself, believe that Christianity, when taken symbolically and WITHOUT GETTING CAUGHT UP WITH THE DETAILS OF THE BIBLE, can be a good thing. The Bible has been translated and maimed (by the Church) so much that getting into the details is pointless. Perhaps that "Jesus is the savior" could mean/be as good as "doing as Jesus did will save". Just a thought.

EDIT: fixed quote



[This message has been edited by Inti (edited 07-06-2005).]

QUOTE Originally posted by Inti:

And by the way, if the non-believer doesn't believe in the morals of your religion anyhow, how are they, in their own eyes, sinning?

The key is in what you said, "in their own eyes".

Not believing in the morals, has nothing to do with it. If you are driving through a 35 zone doing 55, and say to yourself, "i dont believe that the speed limit should be 35, so i'm going to do 55" you arent going to have a leg to stand on when a cop pulls you over.

And if you didnt see the speed limit, the cop is still going to give you a ticket.

God is the One who decides what sin is. And He is the One who judges whether we sinned or not.

quote:You imply this when you say that we are oblivious to the fact that we have sinned. I don't agree with all of the morals of Christianity, so I may consider certain acts moral that you may not. Saying that we're oblivious to the fact that we sin is implying that we BELIEVE in sin, which is a nice piece of circular logic. Nice try.

Do you see how it was not circular?

[b]Anyways, I know this may be straying from the topic, but I, while not being a Christian myself, believe that Christianity, when taken symbolically and WITHOUT GETTING CAUGHT UP WITH THE DETAILS OF THE BIBLE, can be a good thing. The Bible has been translated and maimed (by the Church) so much that getting into the details is pointless. Perhaps that "Jesus is the savior" could mean/be as good as "doing as Jesus did will save". Just a thought.[b]

If there is no God, then there are no morals and then the Bible is just vanity.

It is really a shame that the other 3 or 4 pages has been deleted.

It really emphasized the fact that no human is good, Christian or not.

The only One who is good, is God.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

The key is in what you said, "in their own eyes".

Not believing in the morals, has nothing to do with it. If you are driving through a 35 zone doing 55, and say to yourself, "i dont believe that the speed limit should be 35, so i'm going to do 55" you arent going to have a leg to stand on when a cop pulls you over.

And if you didnt see the speed limit, the cop is still going to give you a ticket.

God is the One who decides what sin is. And He is the One who judges whether we sinned or not.

What you're missing is that there literally thousands of "speed limit signs." Why can't you accept that people who have different moral systems can still be good people? There is something inherently egotistical in Christianity.



quote:If there is no God, then there are no morals and then the Bible is just vanity.

Wrong. There have always been morals.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

QUOTE Originally posted by Inti:

And by the way, if the non-believer doesn't believe in the morals of your religion anyhow, how are they, in their own eyes, sinning?

The key is in what you said, "in their own eyes".

Not believing in the morals, has nothing to do with it. If you are driving through a 35 zone doing 55, and say to yourself, "i dont believe that the speed limit should be 35, so i'm going to do 55" you arent going to have a leg to stand on when a cop pulls you over.

And if you didnt see the speed limit, the cop is still going to give you a ticket.

If there is no God, then there are no morals and then the Bible is just vanity.

Who decides what the speed limits are? You think a God sets the limits, I think my own morals do. I have morals, and I don't believe in God, disproving the last paragraph. There is a system of punishment which is Godless. Karma.

Anyways, why would a God punish people in Hell eternally for 60 or 70 years of good works but non-belief in Him? That's like going to a store, stealing a candy bar, then getting thrown in jail for life. Eternal Hell is overkill for a punishment, I say.

(By the way, I meant to say that you were using a strawman, not circular logic.)

[This message has been edited by Inti (edited 07-06-2005).]

Originally posted by malaria:

Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

The key is in what you said, "in their own eyes".

Not believing in the morals, has nothing to do with it. If you are driving through a 35 zone doing 55, and say to yourself, "i dont believe that the speed limit should be 35, so i'm going to do 55" you arent going to have a leg to stand on when a cop pulls you over.

And if you didnt see the speed limit, the cop is still going to give you a ticket.

God is the One who decides what sin is. And He is the One who judges whether we sinned or not.

quote:What you're missing is that there literally thousands of "speed limit signs." Why can't you accept that people who have different moral systems can still be good people? There is something inherently egotistical in Christianity.

no one is good. How can you say that people can be good (having different moral systems), without a moral abolute?

i used speed limit signs to represent the Law. The Law is the measure whether something is right or wrong. The speed limit lets you know the limit. If you go outside the limit, then you are breaking the law.



quote:If there is no God, then there are no morals and then the Bible is just vanity.

quote:

Wrong. There have always been morals.

you and i are both doing something here, but from different ends of the spectrum.

We are both assuming.. a priori (sp?)

QUOTE Originally posted by Inti:

Who decides what the speed limits are? You think a God sets the limits, I think my own morals do. I have morals, and I don't believe in God, disproving the last paragraph. There is a system of punishment which is Godless. Karma.

Karma knows what is right and wrong? Good and bad? Did karma determine it?

Anyways, why would a God punish people in Hell eternally for 60 or 70 years of good works but non-belief in Him?

Who/what determines what is good? Who/what determines what the punishment is? Who/what judges whether punishment is in order?



That's like going to a store, stealing a candy bar, then getting thrown in jail for life. Eternal Hell is overkill for a punishment, I say.

What about drunk driving? Some countries have some rather tuff penalties for this...



Sorry, gotta leave for work about 2 minutes ago.. i'm gonna have to speed to get to work... not really, but i'll try to expand on this when i get home today or tomorrow.

(By the way, I meant to say that you were using a strawman, not circular logic.)

[/B][/QUOTE]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

no one is good. How can you say that people can be good (having different moral systems), without a moral abolute?

There are common morals shared amongst generally all moral systems. If someone is honest, virtuous, kind and generous, I fail to see how they're not a good person.

Morals are just a system of judging good and bad, it's not that difficult to find what is held as commonly good for humans.

quote:i used speed limit signs to represent the Law. The Law is the measure whether something is right or wrong. The speed limit lets you know the limit. If you go outside the limit, then you are breaking the law.

You cannot apply your laws to everyone, it doesn't work. They are not the laws of man, they are the laws of those who follow your religion, which about 70% of the world does not.

quote:you and i are both doing something here, but from different ends of the spectrum.

We are both assuming.. a priori (sp?)

Are you serious? There is no assuming on my part. Humans are judgemental creatures. To say that we never judged good and bad before the Jewish Law is completely nuts.

I have a hard time believing that you actually believe that.

Edit: For some reason, the original Topic truncated the reply.

Here is the complete reply:



QUOTE Originally posted by malaria:

There are common morals shared amongst generally all moral systems. If someone is honest, virtuous, kind and generous, I fail to see how they're not a good person.

We do not have the ability to truely judge whether someone is good... but we can somewhat judge ourselves.

So, with that in mind, here are some questions for you to answer to yourself.. and to be honest with/to yourself... IF you choose to share the answers, if it's illegal, please keep in mind not to incriminate yourself. (and remember, these are what you said a good person should/would be)...

do you concider yourself to be a good person?

let's first use 'honest'... have you ever lied (not told the 'truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth')? stolen? kept all your promises? cheated on your boyfriend/girlfriend? (i'm sorry, i think your a guy, but i'm not sure.) cheated on a test or homework? when buying something, have you ever gotten more change back than what was owed, and not given it back?



Then, there is 'virtuous' (although, this word implies morals...nevermind, let's use it anyway)...

have you ever perverted something or lead anyone "astray"?

Are you modest-- in terms of humble?

Are you modest-- in terms of how you dress? (in other words, do you dress in such away that you hope to sexually turn someone on... and it doesnt matter to you, if that person has someone or not)

How about 'kind'.. are you considerate to everyone? (i think 'kind' is one of those wishy-washy words... but to get an idea of what i'm asking here, see if you can listen to a copy of "How Many Say I" by Van Halen off of Van Halen III)

And finally, 'generous'.. giving freely; copious.

When you give, do you give in such a way, that you expect absolutly nothing in return? are you willing to give the amount that is needed or atleast up to what you have, to anyone in need ('need' being the key word), whether or not it might "tap you out"?

Morals are just a system of judging good and bad, it's not that difficult to find what is held as commonly good for humans.

The difference between the Law and morals, is that the Law (or 'law') is what is used for that system to judge 'good and bad'. Morals are the application, but the law is the tool to measure 'good and bad'.

You cannot apply your laws to everyone, it doesn't work. They are not the laws of man, they are the laws of those who follow your religion, which about 70% of the world does not.

I'm not the one applying the Law to everyone. God is... which brings us to:

Are you serious? There is no assuming on my part.

Sorry, my using 'assuming' was the wrong word. What i was trying to get at, is, I am starting from the POV that the Judeo-Christian God is real, and i assume that you are of the belief that He is not real.

Earlier, you said, "Wrong. There have always been morals".

My remark about assuming from different ends (actually, beginning points), is agreeing that there have always been morals. But that agreement is only because morals were from the beginning of Creation.

[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 07-08-2005).]

You christians pillage, kill, force your will upon unseeking pariahs. But yet you have the grapes to tell us that you care?

Fuck you!

You kill helpless animals, grow haughty in earthly rule, and assume the only one mightier then you is on your side. Basic ethology and science negates everything you try to prove. You live in a fantasy world.

Go marry a youth pastor.

quote:Originally posted by SwordChucks:

You christians pillage, kill, force your will upon unseeking pariahs. But yet you have the grapes to tell us that you care?

Fuck you!

You kill helpless animals, grow haughty in earthly rule, and assume the only one mightier then you is on your side. Basic ethology and science negates everything you try to prove. You live in a fantasy world.

Go marry a youth pastor.

I agree, christians seem to be two-faced. Only god may judge people (bible says that) but still try and persecute gays and heretics etc.

If all christians are automatically good (your words digi) then how did atrocities as crusades and other genocides come to pass?

Murder in the name of the Christian god.

[This message has been edited by Fza (edited 07-08-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Fza:

If all christians are automatically good (your words digi) ...

God is the only one who is good. Christians are not. Niether is anyoneone else.

I'm not sure, but i doubt that Digital said that Christians are good. If she said anything close to that, i would guess that she had said something to the effect of: "the Blood of the Lamb (Jesus the Christ) is the only thing that makes a person good in God's eyes".

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

We do not have the ability to truely judge whether someone is good... but we can somewhat judge ourselves.

Right there I think you are wrong. You have the ability to judge, and I guarantee you do it on a daily basis. It's called reasoning, and without it, you would be dead.

quote:do you concider yourself to be a good person?

let's first use 'honest'[...]

Then, there is 'virtuous' (although, this word implies morals...nevermind, let's use it anyway)[...]

How about 'kind'[...]

And finally, 'generous'[...]

That stuff has nothing to do with being a good person. You're nitpicking and you know it. That is really reaching. The only one that really has any bearing is the cheating on a girlfriend, which I have never done, nor would I ever do.

quote:The difference between the Law and morals, is that the Law (or 'law') is what is used for that system to judge 'good and bad'. Morals are the application, but the law is the tool to measure 'good and bad'.

I'm not the one applying the Law to everyone. God is... which brings us to:

Sorry, my using 'assuming' was the wrong word. What i was trying to get at, is, I am starting from the POV that the Judeo-Christian God is real, and i assume that you are of the belief that He is not real.

No, morals are what we judge by. Here, from the dictionary:

mor·al

adj.

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character

Even from the POV that the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God is real, some people are good. There is no such thing as wholly good or bad. You have to take the whole life of a person, not the time they told their son that the family cat ran away when he was really hit by a car.

quote:Earlier, you said, "Wrong. There have always been morals".

My remark about assuming from different ends (actually, beginning points), is agreeing that there have always been morals. But that agreement is only because morals were from the beginning of Creation.

Morals are as old as humans because humans make them, not God. It's how we judge, whether you like it or not.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Most christian denominations say, yep, a good person who isn't christian goes to hell. The reasoning is that you need to have zero sins to enter heaven.



Isn't being born in itself considered to be a sin? If that's so then no one can exist without at least that one sin on their records. Except maybe Yashua, or jesus if you prefer to him. As he was concieved without sex.

QUOTE Originally posted by malaria:

quote:do you concider yourself to be a good person?

let's first use 'honest'[...]

Then, there is 'virtuous' (although, this word implies morals...nevermind, let's use it anyway)[...]

How about 'kind'[...]

And finally, 'generous'[...]

That stuff has nothing to do with being a good person. You're nitpicking and you know it. That is really reaching. The only one that really has any bearing is the cheating on a girlfriend, which I have never done, nor would I ever do.

Am i reaching? You were the one that used those qualities to define what a good person would be. So, in effect, those qualities were what you were using as 'morals'.

As for the questions, each one of those reflect what the dictionary defines them as.

honest= upright and fair; gained or obtained fairly; sincere; genuine; truthful or credible

virtuous= conforming to moral and ethical principles (this definition is the reason i said, "although, this word implies morals...nevermind, let's use it anyway")

but then the next definition is chaste..so, chaste = refraining from sexual intercourse (notice, i didnt even include that definition in those questions); pure; modest; virtuous

kind= indulgent, considerate, helpful, helpful, gracious

generous= liberal in giving or sharing; free from meanness (granted, i didnt include any questions reflecting this); large, abundant, ample.

Do you really think that i was nitpicking?

These were the morals that you used to indicate who is good.. let's just take the case of honest... if you lie only once, doesnt that make you a liar? If not, then how many lies does it take to become a liar?

What about the lies that you tell yourself (all of us do it, i'm not pointing my finger)? You can call this "justifying our actions"... but it boils down to lying to ourself. Infact, you are doing it by thinking that morals are subjective. And you are justifying that by calling it "nitpicky".

And just remember, i only talked about the qualities that you called moral. How much more "nitpicky" should/could God be? He said "do this" and "dont do that". We call them Commandments because He commanded... not requested or suggested, but commanded.

Not to start an arguement about "what the commandments are", but consider this for a few minutes (it's taken from Luther's small Catechism):

quote:

The First Commandment.

Thou shalt have no other gods.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear, love, and trust in God above all things.

The Second Commandment.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God, in vain.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not curse, swear, use witchcraft, lie, or deceive by His name, but call upon it in every trouble, pray, praise, and give thanks.

The Third Commandment.

Thou shalt sanctify the holy-day.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not despise preaching and His Word, but hold it sacred, and gladly hear and learn it.

The Fourth Commandment.

Thou shalt honor thy father and thy mother [that it may be well with thee and thou mayest live long upon the earth].

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not despise nor anger our parents and masters, but give them honor, serve, obey, and hold them in love and esteem.

The Fifth Commandment.

Thou shalt not kill.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not hurt nor harm our neighbor in his body, but help and befriend him in every bodily need .

The Sixth Commandment.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may lead a chaste and decent life in words and deeds, and each love and honor his spouse.

The Seventh Commandment.

Thou shalt not steal.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not take our neighbor's money or property, nor get them by false ware or dealing, but help him to improve and protect his property and business [that his means are preserved and his condition is improved].

The Eighth Commandment.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

The Ninth Commandment.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not craftily seek to get our neighbor's inheritance or house, and obtain it by a show of [justice and] right, etc., but help and be of service to him in keeping it.

The Tenth Commandment.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his cattle, nor anything that is his.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not estrange, force, or entice away our neighbor's wife, servants, or cattle, but urge them to stay and [diligently] do their duty.

What Does God Say of All These Commandments?

Answer.

He says thus (Exod. 20, 5f ]: I the Lord, thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me, and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

What does this mean?--Answer.

God threatens to punish all that transgress these commandments. Therefore we should dread His wrath and not act contrary to these commandments. But He promises grace and every blessing to all that keep these commandments. Therefore we should also love and trust in Him, and gladly do [zealously and diligently order our whole life] according to His commandments.



No, morals are what we judge by. Here, from the dictionary:

[i]mor·al

adj.

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character

Now compare that to (just def. 1 in Random House Webster's):

law

noun

1) the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision.

i think i had said something like this:

quote:The difference between the Law and morals, is that the Law (or 'law') is what is used for that system to judge 'good and bad'. Morals are the application, but the law is the tool to measure 'good and bad'.

The law is the noun and moral is the adjective. The law is the 'tool' and 'moral(s)' is/are the application. In the case of God's Law, He is the authority that established the Law. (i'm just showing that the dictionary definition one of 'law' also defines definition #18 and #20, which both pertain to God's law... i know, but go ahead anyway)

Even from the POV that the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God is real, some people are good. There is no such thing as wholly good or bad. You have to take the whole life of a person, not the time they told their son that the family cat ran away when he was really hit by a car.

In other words, what you are saying is that it is possible to only be bad once in a lifetime???

Also, i dont have to look at the whole life... i am not the Judge.

Not only that, but (and i remind you that you said, "Even from the POV that the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God is real,") God says in His Word, that even if we keep the whole Law, but stumble on one point, we are guilty of the whole Law.

He also says that He paid the price for all sins. He died once, for all (and that 'all' means all people AND all sins).

All we have to do, is, repent and accept Christ's atonement.

It's kinda like, if i bought a lottery ticket that won and i said that all members have an equal share, the only stipulation is that they have to come and claim their share in person.

Morals are as old as humans because humans make them, not God. It's how we judge, whether you like it or not.

And you know this? how?

edit: to include the end italics tag

[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 07-09-2005).]

*dusts herself off, and coughs up a tumbleweed*

I can't even begin to jump back into this...it has gone on too long without me. I wouldn't leave my PC for days.

Xtreem, you did well in my absence. I am not saying you did it because you thought I needed you to, I am saying that everything you wrote was well written, and concise. I am also not saying that you don't do well IN my presence...I guess a compliment sucks when you have to explain it every which way, doesn' it ? *LOL*

Don't you just love when people are purposely obtuse, just to convince themselves that yup...they're still right ?

Superiority complexes run amuck here on Totse, yet Christians are the only people ever pegged for it.

But that sentiment is probably just my overactive martyr complex kicking in again.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

i mentioned "kind" and Van Halen's song how many say i . I hadnt listened to this for awhile, and now that i read the lyrics, i realize that it wasnt about "kind". It is about what we tell ourselves what's good and bad.. but make ourselves hypocritical.

Anyway, here are the lyrics:

HOW MANY SAY I

Written by:

Edward Van Halen, Gary Cherone,

Michael Anthony, Alex Van Halen.

© 1998 Van Halen Publishing, LLC ASCAP

All Rights Reserved

---

are you ever so silent, when she wanted to talk

or couldn't keep quiet, when she needed a hug

come on too strong, when a little's too much

how many, how many, say i

go on and say yes, and really mean no

would you rather guess, when you just don't know

and then say i love you, but aren't willing to show

how many, how many, say i

how many, how many, say i

how many, how many, say i

how many, how many, say i

say live and let live, then so quick to judge

slow to forgive, when you're holding a grudge

don't always believe, all you need is love

how many, how many, say i

how many, how many, say i

how many, how many, say i

how many, how many, say i

how many, how many, say i

how many, how many, say i

how many, how many, say i

did you ever look down when the homeless walked by

or changed the channel when you saw a hungry child

know something to be true, then deny

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Am i reaching? You were the one that used those qualities to define what a good person would be. So, in effect, those qualities were what you were using as 'morals'.

Yes, you are reaching. You're saying that you are a bad person if you cheat on homework. I say that is nitpicking. It's stupid, no one would consider someone else bad because of that. That goes along with all of your examples, that's why I am not even bothering answering that to each one.

quote:And just remember, i only talked about the qualities that you called moral. How much more "nitpicky" should/could God be? He said "do this" and "dont do that". We call them Commandments because He commanded... not requested or suggested, but commanded.

Not to start an arguement about "what the commandments are", but consider this for a few minutes (it's taken from Luther's small Catechism)

We all know what the commandments are, and I'm not going through them.

How nitpicky should/could God be? Neither you nor I would ever know. You're acting on the assumption that it is his word because the word says it is. That is called circular logic, and you can't use it as an argument.

The commandments are commanded by a bunch of Jewish fellows thousands of years ago. They're a few moral 'laws' to guide you.

quote:The law is the noun and moral is the adjective. The law is the 'tool' and 'moral(s)' is/are the application. In the case of God's Law, He is the authority that established the Law. (i'm just showing that the dictionary definition one of 'law' also defines definition #18 and #20, which both pertain to God's law... i know, but go ahead anyway)

Morals can be a noun as well. Go look it up, I only gave you one definition of it. *sigh*

You have never witnessed God enforcing any of his laws, have you? Funny, no one has.

quote:In other words, what you are saying is that it is possible to only be bad once in a lifetime???

Also, i dont have to look at the whole life... i am not the Judge.

Not only that, but (and i remind you that you said, "Even from the POV that the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God is real,") God says in His Word, that even if we keep the whole Law, but stumble on one point, we are guilty of the whole Law.

Good and bad are subjective, so yes.

Again, you are saying God said, when he never did. Stop using your circular logic for this argument.

quote:And you know this? how?

A lack of historical ignorance.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

my overactive martyr complex

Everyone wants their glory. It seems to overshadow your 'faith.'

malaria, you seem rather intelligent and all, but you judge DS way too harsh. Is she supposed to NEVER display any sort of failure to comply 100% with the laws of her religion and the morals of it? Or do you think perfection is some easy to meet goal that any straying from is worthy of constant criticism?

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

malaria, you seem rather intelligent and all, but you judge DS way too harsh. Is she supposed to NEVER display any sort of failure to comply 100% with the laws of her religion and the morals of it? Or do you think perfection is some easy to meet goal that any straying from is worthy of constant criticism?

Not being insulting equals "perfection"? You must have a really screwed up definition of "perfection".



I've seen Digital_Savior insult others and I have seen her laugh at others. This, not on one occasion, but on numerous occasions. Moreover she did not even express remorse or regret after it was pointed out to her that she had done so.

I'm sorry, but I do not believe one deserves the label of "Christian" simply for believing in Jesus. Belief in Jesus requires more than just saying it, it requires commitment to follow what he preached; you most certainly do not show a commitment to the teachings of the Christ by insulting others or by laughing at others. Of course, I would never expect someone to be completely Christ-like, but is it too much to at least expect remorse or regret for insulting someone? I think not.

So I don't see how malaria is wrong in this criticism.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-10-2005).]

QUOTE Originally posted by malaria:

Yes, you are reaching. You're saying that you are a bad person if you cheat on homework.

I am saying that you are not honest if you cheat on homework. You were the one that picked honesty as one way to judge whether someone is good or not.

I say that is nitpicking. It's stupid, no one would consider someone else bad because of that.

No one would consider that bad, not because it is nitpicky, but because we all lie. If we call someone bad because of that, that is in effect, calling ourselves bad... and who WANTS to do that?

That goes along with all of your examples, that's why I am not even bothering answering that to each one.

that's cool. i didnt ask for an answer anyway. i asked you to answer them to yourself... honestly. i only said that if you did answer them publicly, watch that you dont incriminate yourself (if something was illegal).

We all know what the commandments are, and I'm not going through them.

i just said to consider what Luther wrote. He put in "what does this mean". Just read and consider. That's all. Respond if you want, that's up to you.

Neither you nor I would ever know. You're acting on the assumption that it is his word because the word says it is. That is called circular logic, and you can't use it as an argument.

And from this statement, you show that you are already assuming that there is no God. But earlier you had said: [quote] Even from the POV that the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God is real, some people are good. [/b]

If you think that "Neither you nor I would ever know.", then you have already shown that you have excluded God's existance from possibility. Denial does not determine circular.

But, if i said that the president lives in the white house, and for proof i said, "let's go look in the white house to see if he lives there, it would be just as circular as claiming that the Bible is a proof that it is God's word. The Bible shows evidences that it is what it says it is. And the only way to show that it is true is to look into it and see if what it says is true.

The commandments are commanded by a bunch of Jewish fellows thousands of years ago. They're a few moral 'laws' to guide you.

This is based on your assumption that the Bible is not what it says that it is. But again, you have already determined that it is false. Which stating that "Jewish fellows done it" makes it only an assumption.

Morals can be a noun as well. Go look it up, I only gave you one definition of it.

True it can be a noun. And i did not notice that these definitions would be a noun because there was no need for me to look any closer at the definition that you provided, since it fell right in place with my point.

My appologies.

However:



n. 9. the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience etc.

10. the embodiment or type of something.

11. morals principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.

talk about circular... Moral = good Good = moral.

Of the 58 definitions given in my dictionary for 'good' (and no, i did not read them all), the first definition says:

"morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious; ... a good man"

sounds pretty circular to me. it brings us right back to where we started.

You have never witnessed God enforcing any of his laws, have you?

Yes, as a matter of fact, i have... but this has to do with a verse that quite awhile ago i made a reference of, that even Digital described it as, "an obscure verse that may or may not be in the Bible" (this is not an exact quote of Digital, but it is as best as i remember.. and from her comment alone i was very tempted to show what this verse was... but it was another "seek and find", meant for a specific purpose and can not be used lightly... nevermind, if it was not you that it was directed to, then it doesnt matter.. it wasnt you, right?)

Good and bad are subjective, so yes.

That's hogwash. The reason it is viewed as subjective is that people are not even honest with themselves. ("Gee, sure i cheated on that test, but i had a good reason." OR "Ya, i cheated, but only alittle bit, and that teacher has it in for me"... screw that. did i cheat? yes. was it honest? no. is it good or bad to be dishonest? bad.)

Again, you are saying God said, when he never did. Stop using your circular logic for this argument.

I disagree that it is circular, but that's irrellevant.

What is relevant is: Why should i stop using what you say is circular? Because it's bad? I thought you said that good and bad are subjective? You have said but not shown that God did not ever say this (or anything else). This is circular.

A lack of historical ignorance.

Where is the historical proof that morals were made up by humans "as old as humans"??

This is an assuption, based on the belief that God does not exist AND the assumption that God was not the one that made morals.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I am saying that you are not honest if you cheat on homework. You were the one that picked honesty as one way to judge whether someone is good or not.

No, cheating on homework is so little that it doesn't even matter. You're not getting that. There is no such thing as wholly good or bad, which I said before.

quote:No one would consider that bad, not because it is nitpicky, but because we all lie. If we call someone bad because of that, that is in effect, calling ourselves bad... and who WANTS to do that?

That is not true. It's nitpicking, plain and simple. I don't care if someone cheats on their homework, not because I don't want to be called a liar, but because it is a really pathetic thing to call someone on. In other words "WHO CARES?"

quote:that's cool. i didnt ask for an answer anyway. i asked you to answer them to yourself... honestly. i only said that if you did answer them publicly, watch that you dont incriminate yourself (if something was illegal).

I don't do illegal things. You assume because I'm not Christian, I am immoral and generally bad.

My religion makes me understand that I will be held accountable for my actions in everyday life, and I can actually see the results of other peoples actions on them. When was the last time you saw someone in Heaven or burning up in Hell? Christianity allows for immoral, irresponsible behaviour on the assumption that you will be forgiven by God.

quote:And from this statement, you show that you are already assuming that there is no God. But earlier you had said: Even from the POV that the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God is real, some people are good.

If you think that "Neither you nor I would ever know.", then you have already shown that you have excluded God's existance from possibility. Denial does not determine circular.

I never denied the existence, I denied the ability of either of us to know for certain either way if it was true or not. Circular is saying 'The book is the word of god. It's true because it says it is.'



quote:But, if i said that the president lives in the white house, and for proof i said, "let's go look in the white house to see if he lives there, it would be just as circular as claiming that the Bible is a proof that it is God's word. The Bible shows evidences that it is what it says it is. And the only way to show that it is true is to look into it and see if what it says is true.

Uh, no. That's just stupid. There's a huge difference here, you can actually SEE the president in the white house.

I think what you meant is like a child saying there's a monster under his bed, but when you look it's not really there, just in his imagination.

quote:This is based on your assumption that the Bible is not what it says that it is. But again, you have already determined that it is false. Which stating that "Jewish fellows done it" makes it only an assumption.

It's an educated guess. Your guess is uneducated, you just assume it is true because it says it is.

quote:However:



n. 9. the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience etc.

10. the embodiment or type of something.

11. morals principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.

talk about circular... Moral = good Good = moral.

Of the 58 definitions given in my dictionary for 'good' (and no, i did not read them all), the first definition says:

"morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious; ... a good man"

sounds pretty circular to me. it brings us right back to where we started.

"Morally excellent" is not circular. It's saying you are excellent based upon morals, not that morals mean good and good means morals.

quote:Yes, as a matter of fact, i have... but this has to do with a verse that quite awhile ago i made a reference of, that even Digital described it as, "an obscure verse that may or may not be in the Bible" (this is not an exact quote of Digital, but it is as best as i remember.. and from her comment alone i was very tempted to show what this verse was... but it was another "seek and find", meant for a specific purpose and can not be used lightly... nevermind, if it was not you that it was directed to, then it doesnt matter.. it wasnt you, right?)

Show me some proof and maybe you'll have some converts. I saw flying lights at night once inside the house, but it doesn't mean that you will (or should) believe me.

quote:That's hogwash. The reason it is viewed as subjective is that people are not even honest with themselves. ("Gee, sure i cheated on that test, but i had a good reason." OR "Ya, i cheated, but only alittle bit, and that teacher has it in for me"... screw that. did i cheat? yes. was it honest? no. is it good or bad to be dishonest? bad.)

No, the reason it's subjective is because people have different views on good and bad. For example, when I lived in Georgia there was a particular Baptist Church that forbade dancing and said it was vain/evil. Therefore, for them to dance it would be BAD, however I doubt you would consider it so.

quote:I disagree that it is circular, but that's irrellevant.

What is relevant is: Why should i stop using what you say is circular? Because it's bad? I thought you said that good and bad are subjective? You have said but not shown that God did not ever say this (or anything else). This is circular.

The burden of proof is on you, you're the one that claims God exists. You offer a book that says God exists, and for references lists only itself, as evidence. That is circular, and it's unreasonable.

It's not bad to use circular logic, it proves ignorance. So if you want to be known as ignorant, go for it, but there's no way I'm going to keep beating this horse. I really like horses.

quote:Where is the historical proof that morals were made up by humans "as old as humans"??

This is an assuption, based on the belief that God does not exist AND the assumption that God was not the one that made morals.

No it isn't, it's based on the fact that humans have always judged, reasoned, and dealt with people based upon 'good' and 'bad.' How else would those damned Heathens have judicial court systems set up before the arrival of Christians? That's proof itself.

so,

wwjd

QUOTE Originally posted by malaria:

No, cheating on homework is so little that it doesn't even matter. You're not getting that. There is no such thing as wholly good or bad, which I said before.

No, you are not getting it. You were the one who used honesty as one aspect of a good person. I am using your aspect in one small example.

At what point does "alittle dishonesty" become "not honest"?

As to "wholly good" or "wholly bad"; the Bible explains sin like yeast. A little bit of yeast effects the whole loaf. If the yeast is good, the whole loaf rises. If it is bad, it doesnt work in the bread.

That is not true. It's nitpicking, plain and simple. I don't care if someone cheats on their homework, not because I don't want to be called a liar, but because it is a really pathetic thing to call someone on. In other words "WHO CARES?"

Does that mean that you have cheated? Then you are a cheater.

If you have lied, you are a liar.

In either case, it is dishonesty.

Look, i am not saying that to piss you off. I'm only using your definition of what a good person is. We all lie. And by definition, none of us is honest.

I don't do illegal things. You assume because I'm not Christian, I am immoral and generally bad.

No, i was not assuming that you are immoral because you are not Christian. In fact, i didnt even know for sure if you were Christian or not, at that time.

I was pointing out that IF you had done something illegal, we do not know who might be watching the thread. It was a "just incase" statement. And i wouldnt want you to be "tossed in the can" for slipping up in a response. I had no idea if you had or had not committed a crime.

And besides that, i was not saying that Christians never do anything illegal.

Some do. And i wasnt saying that a crime should not be punished. I just didnt want the possibility of you getting caught, JUST IN CASE.

Circular is saying 'The book is the word of god. It's true because it says it is.'

True, it says it is. It also shows that it true by showing proofs that are true. If the whole book is true (not counting that it says it is true), then it is true on that point too. But to show this, you and i would have to go through each and every verse. And look at all things claimed, and compare them to history, science, etc. And, i can not speak for you, but i personally do not have enough knowledge to do that. That is vastly beyond the scope of this discussion of good and bad.

But where i can and to limits, i have tried to address some of these in TOTSE, as have others.



Uh, no. That's just stupid. There's a huge difference here, you can actually SEE the president in the white house.

No, it's not stupid. You can also see others in the house that do not live there. It is an evidence, not 'the proof'.

Yes, it is a very simple analogy though.

It's an educated guess. Your guess is uneducated, you just assume it is true because it says it is.

No, i am not assuming. But that has been touched on in a different thread.

Show me some proof and maybe you'll have some converts. I saw flying lights at night once inside the house, but it doesn't mean that you will (or should) believe me.

Was it you that i had meantioned this verse to? (i really can not remember, it was quite a long while ago). Anyway, if it was not you, then i apologize; but it must stay "obsure" for reasons that i had said way back then. That person has to find it on his/her own.

No, the reason it's subjective is because people have different views on good and bad. For example, when I lived in Georgia there was a particular Baptist Church that forbade dancing and said it was vain/evil. Therefore, for them to dance it would be BAD, however I doubt you would consider it so.

Alright, that is another reason for subjective... man's limited, fallible understanding.



I have some things to do. I'll try to get tto the rest of this later. If i dont address this, please remind me.

*************************************

quote:I disagree that it is circular, but that's irrellevant.

What is relevant is: Why should i stop using what you say is circular? Because it's bad? I thought you said that good and bad are subjective? You have said but not shown that God did not ever say this (or anything else). This is circular.



The burden of proof is on you, you're the one that claims God exists. You offer a book that says God exists, and for references lists only itself, as evidence. That is circular, and it's unreasonable.

It's not bad to use circular logic, it proves ignorance. So if you want to be known as ignorant, go for it, but there's no way I'm going to keep beating this horse. I really like horses.

quote:Where is the historical proof that morals were made up by humans "as old as humans"??

This is an assuption, based on the belief that God does not exist AND the assumption that God was not the one that made morals.

No it isn't, it's based on the fact that humans have always judged, reasoned, and dealt with people based upon 'good' and 'bad.' How else would those damned Heathens have judicial court systems set up before the arrival of Christians? That's proof itself.[/B]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

No, you are not getting it. You were the one who used honesty as one aspect of a good person. I am using your aspect in one small example.

At what point does "alittle dishonesty" become "not honest"?

As to "wholly good" or "wholly bad"; the Bible explains sin like yeast. A little bit of yeast effects the whole loaf. If the yeast is good, the whole loaf rises. If it is bad, it doesnt work in the bread.

Ok I see what you're saying. It is a difference of opinion, I think you can be a liar in some ways and still be a good person, whereas you don't.

quote:Does that mean that you have cheated? Then you are a cheater.

If you have lied, you are a liar.

In either case, it is dishonesty.

Look, i am not saying that to piss you off. I'm only using your definition of what a good person is. We all lie. And by definition, none of us is honest.

I know you weren't trying to piss me off, and you didn't (in case that was bothering you), I'm just telling you that I think you can be dishonest or a cheater in some ways and still be an overall good person. By the way, no I have no cheated. I never needed to.

quote:No, i was not assuming that you are immoral because you are not Christian. In fact, i didnt even know for sure if you were Christian or not, at that time.

I was raised Catholic, and so I hold many Christian morals. They happen to go along with Heathen ones for the most part, though, anyway. (Just a sidenote)

quote:I was pointing out that IF you had done something illegal, we do not know who might be watching the thread. It was a "just incase" statement. And i wouldnt want you to be "tossed in the can" for slipping up in a response. I had no idea if you had or had not committed a crime.

Nope, never committed a crime.

quote:True, it says it is. It also shows that it true by showing proofs that are true. If the whole book is true (not counting that it says it is true), then it is true on that point too. But to show this, you and i would have to go through each and every verse. And look at all things claimed, and compare them to history, science, etc. And, i can not speak for you, but i personally do not have enough knowledge to do that. That is vastly beyond the scope of this discussion of good and bad.

But where i can and to limits, i have tried to address some of these in TOTSE, as have others.

I've tried that before and it's a headache. I don't want to do it either, so again we'll just have to settle for a difference of opinion.



quote:No, it's not stupid. You can also see others in the house that do not live there. It is an evidence, not 'the proof'.

Yes, it is a very simple analogy though.

The point is that you can go to the White House and see G.W. You can't say that for your analogy.

quote:Was it you that i had meantioned this verse to? (i really can not remember, it was quite a long while ago). Anyway, if it was not you, then i apologize; but it must stay "obsure" for reasons that i had said way back then. That person has to find it on his/her own.

I have no idea what you're talking about, so I don't think it was me.

quote:Alright, that is another reason for subjective... man's limited, fallible understanding.

If our understanding is fallible, does that not mean your understanding of God could very well be flawed?



quote:This is an assuption, based on the belief that God does not exist AND the assumption that God was not the one that made morals.

It doesn't matter if God exists or not, humans still have morals. Just look at African tribes untouched by Christianity. The fact is, they have moral systems. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

quote:Originally posted by Fza:

I agree, christians seem to be two-faced. Only god may judge people (bible says that) but still try and persecute gays and heretics etc.

If all christians are automatically good (your words digi) then how did atrocities as crusades and other genocides come to pass?

Murder in the name of the Christian god.



I never said we are automatically good. We are forgiven of our sins, and therefore able to exist in God's presence.

What we do with our salvation is up to us.

I can either do nothing with it, and continue to live for myself, or I can adopt the actions of Christ, and live for others. I am still saved, but I would be no good to Christ's cause.

I have pointed this out numerous times, but I will say again that simply because someone claims they are a Christian doesn't mean they are one.

For example, my mother's husband is a self-professed "good baptist republican."

This is a man that beats his wife and her children (he beat my 25 year old sister last month, right in front of her 1 year old son), and shakes his fist at the ceiling screaming, "FUCK YOU GOD !!" whenever a democrat pisses him off on the TV.

Is this man a Christian ? Would the Holy Spirit, who would be presumably dwelling inside of him if he WERE saved, allow him to behave like this without conviction and retribution ?

I think not.

Those that committed sins against their fellow man (Crusades) may or may not have been Christian...none of us could even speculate whether they were or not, because only God sees the heart rightly. But since they were going around killing people for no good reason, I think it is safe to say that they were not. Even if they were, believe me when I say their "reward" was in Heaven. God is a just God, even with His flock (Christians), and we are held accountable for everything we do. They were judged according to their actions.

The reason I said, "No good reason." is not to indicate that if we had a good reason to murder it would be ok to do so. God doesn't require that we operate like that anymore (Read the story of Moses and the Midianites, if you want an example of man carrying out God's will - the Jews were tasked with annihilating the Midianites.) because we are under a new covenant (Jesus Christ).

Christians are not two faced because they sin. They sin because they are still human, even with the Holy Spirit residing in them. It doesn't make us perfect to have God in our lives, but our conscience is heightened, and we tend to feel doubly remorseful for our sins, which results in an increased apprehension to commit sin.

Just because we aren't perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't spread God's word. We do our best, and hope that it is good enough.

Most of us, anyway. There are exceptions to every rule.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-10-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Not being insulting equals "perfection"? You must have a really screwed up definition of "perfection".

I've seen Digital_Savior insult others and I have seen her laugh at others. This, not on one occasion, but on numerous occasions. Moreover she did not even express remorse or regret after it was pointed out to her that she had done so.

I'm sorry, but I do not believe one deserves the label of "Christian" simply for believing in Jesus. Belief in Jesus requires more than just saying it, it requires commitment to follow what he preached; you most certainly do not show a commitment to the teachings of the Christ by insulting others or by laughing at others. Of course, I would never expect someone to be completely Christ-like, but is it too much to at least expect remorse or regret for insulting someone? I think not.

So I don't see how malaria is wrong in this criticism.



I criticze when I am being criticized. That doesn't make it right.

NOBODY shows remorse on Totse, though I have certainly apologized for things. You may not have seen it, but that doesn't mean it does not exist.

Since you are not the judge of what is right or wrong, it doesn't matter what your assessment is of me.

You think believing in Christ isn't the way to salvation, and thus deserving of the title "Christian" - this can only because you don't know what you're talking about. I have pointed this out numerous times. You cannot base judgments of me on my own faith, when you have yet to achieve understanding of it.

You would support ANYONE criticizing me, because you don't like me, and what I stand for. Your opinion is biased, and unwanted. Hex was talking to MALARIA, not you.

You are free to answer, but I think it is interesting that you feel the necessity to parade how much you dislike me at every opportunity.

By the way, my expressions of remorse for my sin are between myself and God. If I don't post them here, it is none of your business. I don't see too many people throwing remorse at ANYONE else here.

You exoect the impossible...I have been belittled, rebuked, taunted, and insulted. MANY TIMES. I take it, and take it, and finally I have a say about it. But only I am wrong for this ? Everyone is at fault for what transpires here. No one has yet to portray accountability (except maybe Xtreem).

You, of ALL people, have no right to point fingers about remorse. You seemingly haven't got a remorseful bone in your body, even when you are grotesquely out of line, or obviously incorrect.

You constatntly berate people, even when it is not deserved, and then expect remorse from other people ?

All religious connotations aside, I think you are the biggest hypocrite on Totse, by far. Am I a hypocrite ? Oh, yeah. But I don't answer to you.

I answer to God, not man.

You answer to man, because you think there is nothing above him.

So, who is more at fault here ?

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

malaria, you seem rather intelligent and all, but you judge DS way too harsh. Is she supposed to NEVER display any sort of failure to comply 100% with the laws of her religion and the morals of it? Or do you think perfection is some easy to meet goal that any straying from is worthy of constant criticism?

Thanks, Hex.

You're realistic, which is more than I can say for him.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I criticze when I am being criticized. That doesn't make it right.

NOBODY shows remorse on Totse, though I have certainly apologized for things. You may not have seen it, but that doesn't mean it does not exist.

Since you are not the judge of what is right or wrong, it doesn't matter what your assessment is of me.

Your bible is the judge of what is right and wrong. You're obviously wrong for doing what you've done, and doing it repeatedly without remorse.



quote:

You think believing in Christ isn't the way to salvation, and thus deserving of the title "Christian" - this can only because you don't know what you're talking about. I have pointed this out numerous times. You cannot base judgments of me on my own faith, when you have yet to achieve understanding of it.



Wrong. I have NEVER said that. I did say that being a Christian does not only entail believing that Jesus is the path to salvation. It also entails following his teachings. You do not follow his teachings by insulting others or by not being regretful after you do.

quote:

You would support ANYONE criticizing me, because you don't like me, and what I stand for. Your opinion is biased, and unwanted. Hex was talking to MALARIA, not you.

You are free to answer, but I think it is interesting that you feel the necessity to parade how much you dislike me at every opportunity.

The usual self-martyrdom.

Please link a topic, other than this, where I've shown my dislike of you. You won't find it because none exist as of now. I have expressed it in the past, of course, but not "every moment I get".

Also, how ironic that you mention Hex was speaking to malaria... since I am speaking with Hex, not you. You should heed your own advice and shut up.

quote:

By the way, my expressions of remorse for my sin are between myself and God. If I don't post them here, it is none of your business. I don't see too many people throwing remorse at ANYONE else here.

You exoect the impossible...I have been belittled, rebuked, taunted, and insulted. MANY TIMES. I take it, and take it, and finally I have a say about it. But only I am wrong for this ? Everyone is at fault for what transpires here. No one has yet to portray accountability (except maybe Xtreem).



Since I don't know what you do outside of totse, I must base myself on what you do inside. You have insulted, and laughed at, others. You have not shown any regret or remorse even when I have pointed out how wrong and un-Christian like that is.

Expecting you to never get angry, is expecting the impossible. But that's not what I'm doing. I'm expecting you to at the very least apologize or show some regret. You have acutally done the opposite. I've seen you defend your laughter and your insults. You're defending sin, not being regretfu for having done it in the first place.

quote:

You, of ALL people, have no right to point fingers about remorse. You seemingly haven't got a remorseful bone in your body, even when you are grotesquely out of line, or obviously incorrect.

You constatntly berate people, even when it is not deserved, and then expect remorse from other people ?

All religious connotations aside, I think you are the biggest hypocrite on Totse, by far. Am I a hypocrite ? Oh, yeah. But I don't answer to you.

I answer to God, not man.

You answer to man, because you think there is nothing above him.



I'm not a Christian am I? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I am most certainly not being hypocritical since I don't expect what I've said from someone who isn't a Christian. I DO expect it from a Christian because that is part of Christianity: following the teachings of the Christ.

I suggest you don't wear your religion on your sleeve and actually live up to it. I'm living up to my philosophy; you are clearly not.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-10-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Badfish:

They keep saying that the savior is coming to take them all away to heaven. WTF IS TAKING SO LONG GOD?!

you have to sort of die of natural causes... when you think of it also, christianity isnt a life of close-mindedness... you just do your best to live a good life, and if you do something that you believe is wrong, you can "apologise" to yourself and your god...



the way i see it, todays society gets wrapped up in conformity... "dont conform to anyone" so religion gets shunted aside... you can be christian and still be yourself because its a small aspect of you i guess, just an idea...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You're realistic, which is more than I can say for him.

Hmm, I missed his post. Anyway, I am being that way on purpose. I don't really expect anyone to be perfect, she is just so ridiculous that she needs ridicule of her own. I don't really hate her, she just annoys me.

The fact is, I like knocking her off her high horse. She's way too boastful for the philosophy she's boasting. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I am realistic, DS, you are not.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You exoect the impossible...I have been belittled, rebuked, taunted, and insulted. MANY TIMES. I take it, and take it, and finally I have a say about it. But only I am wrong for this ? Everyone is at fault for what transpires here. No one has yet to portray accountability (except maybe Xtreem).

I realize you're talking to Rust, but I want you to know that when I insult you or otherwise ride you it's because I somehow think it will knock some sense into you.

Is that remorse? No, but maybe after I say this you'll try to see it. I'm trying to save you just as much as you're trying to save me, after all.

And thus we come to the central hypocrisy of 'Evangelical Atheism.' You're more than anxious to shove your beliefs down everyone else's throat. What's worse is that it doesn't stem from some higher cause; you're not saving somebody from an eternal suffering, or trying to acquaint them with the Creator of All Mankind, your convictions rest solely on overweening intellectual confidence and the desire to prove yourself right and superior to others.

Is anyone more full of themselves than Snoopy? Arrogance=pride with no right.

Who is that directed to, Seph?

If you mean me, then it's just funny: I'm not atheist, and I've never preached my beliefs.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Not being insulting equals "perfection"? You must have a really screwed up definition of "perfection".



I've seen Digital_Savior insult others and I have seen her laugh at others. This, not on one occasion, but on numerous occasions. Moreover she did not even express remorse or regret after it was pointed out to her that she had done so.

I'm sorry, but I do not believe one deserves the label of "Christian" simply for believing in Jesus. Belief in Jesus requires more than just saying it, it requires commitment to follow what he preached; you most certainly do not show a commitment to the teachings of the Christ by insulting others or by laughing at others. Of course, I would never expect someone to be completely Christ-like, but is it too much to at least expect remorse or regret for insulting someone? I think not.

So I don't see how malaria is wrong in this criticism.



The thing is, malaria is constantly over-criticizing DS, and it's blatantly obvious that it's just Christian-bashing. I love to insult people just as much as anyone else, but atleast I try to keep it indiscriminant. I've only seen malaria point out the hypocrisy of others maybe three or four times, but nearly every thread they enter with DS engaging in it as well, malaria will start throwing insults and criticism at her.

My question to malaria is: Why, if morality is entirely subjective, do you attack DS for her morals and inability to hold to them in their entirety when not a single other person in the world can do what you seem to expect of her? She's human, just like you and me, and will fuck up just like you and me, and probably just as often.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

The thing is, malaria is constantly over-criticizing DS, and it's blatantly obvious that it's just Christian-bashing. I love to insult people just as much as anyone else, but atleast I try to keep it indiscriminant. I've only seen malaria point out the hypocrisy of others maybe three or four times, but nearly every thread they enter with DS engaging in it as well, malaria will start throwing insults and criticism at her.

My question to malaria is: Why, if morality is entirely subjective, do you attack DS for her morals and inability to hold to them in their entirety when not a single other person in the world can do what you seem to expect of her? She's human, just like you and me, and will fuck up just like you and me, and probably just as often.

It's not Christian bashing. I think 95% of my friends are Christian. I have no problem with them, and as you pointed out, it's only DS. Doesn't that in itself tell you something? "I've only seen [me] point out the hypocrisy in others maybe three or four times"

I do it to DS because she rides in on a high horse, which is the opposite of how a Christian should act. I've never seen someone as arrogant or blatantly offensive as her, and she doesn't even have to try to be that way. Maybe you think I'm being too hard on her, but I like to think it will help her realize that there are different ways to go about this.

"You're wrong and I'm right" doesn't cut it, especially when you can't even live up to it yourself.

Note once again that I have NEVER preached my religion here; only humility and an intelligent approach.

"Thou Shalt Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself"

Follow those very words and everything should fall into place for you to be a good Christian and a good person.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

The thing is, malaria is constantly over-criticizing DS, and it's blatantly obvious that it's just Christian-bashing. I love to insult people just as much as anyone else, but atleast I try to keep it indiscriminant. I've only seen malaria point out the hypocrisy of others maybe three or four times, but nearly every thread they enter with DS engaging in it as well, malaria will start throwing insults and criticism at her.



The point I was trying to make is that she isn't over criticizing anyone.

Who's the judge of what is "over criticizing"? You? How is that fair? How should malaria know what you feel is "over criticizing" and what is not? Moreover, why should she care? Moreover, your idea of "over criticism" is based on your belief that what malaria asks is for perfection, which is completely and utterly incorrect.

The fact is, we can only base ourselves on whether or not DS is deserving of criticism; not on what "over criticism" is; thus my point: DS is deserving of criticism for her un-Christian actions.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-14-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

And thus we come to the central hypocrisy of 'Evangelical Atheism.' You're more than anxious to shove your beliefs down everyone else's throat. What's worse is that it doesn't stem from some higher cause; you're not saving somebody from an eternal suffering, or trying to acquaint them with the Creator of All Mankind, your convictions rest solely on overweening intellectual confidence and the desire to prove yourself right and superior to others.

This is just ridiculous.

If Christianity or any other form of theism for that matter, did not affect an atheist in any way shape or form, then you would have a point, but the fact is it does.

It has a very strong effect on education, on politics, and on the legal system.

Thus what you call the 'shoving of beliefs down people's throat' is in reality a reaction to the presence of theism in every aspect of our lives.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

It's not Christian bashing. I think 95% of my friends are Christian. I have no problem with them, and as you pointed out, it's only DS. Doesn't that in itself tell you something? "I've only seen [me] point out the hypocrisy in others maybe three or four times"

I do it to DS because she rides in on a high horse, which is the opposite of how a Christian should act. I've never seen someone as arrogant or blatantly offensive as her, and she doesn't even have to try to be that way. Maybe you think I'm being too hard on her, but I like to think it will help her realize that there are different ways to go about this.

"You're wrong and I'm right" doesn't cut it, especially when you can't even live up to it yourself.

Note once again that I have NEVER preached my religion here; only humility and an intelligent approach.

I suppose if 95% of your friends are black, and you say something ignorant directed towards someone's African ancestry, it's not racist?

And yeah, I think DS is prideful sometimes, in fact, quite often...but almost every single person in this forum is the same way; we just see DS do it more often because she posts volumes more than even Sephiroth. Please, I'm not expecting you to agree with me, just understand why I think you are over-criticizing DS. Not a single person enters into a heart-felt argument believing they are wrong, generally leading to a high-horse attitude...yes, some of us are better able to admit faults of our own than others, but it doesn't make us more humble...possibly more self-aware, but not more humble. She enters into more arguments on here than any of us, so naturally there are more examples of her not seeing faults of her own...criticizing her at every turn when countless other posters are doing the exact same thing, in my opinion (and I understand it as just that), is ignorant Christian-bashing.

"You're wrong and I'm right" doesn't cut it, especially when you can't even live up to it yourself.

This in particular...my response shall be this: You find a single human that isn't a hypocrite and I'll pull a rainbow striped unicorn out of my ass.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

I suppose if 95% of your friends are black, and you say something ignorant directed towards someone's African ancestry, it's not racist?

Seeing as I live in America, I find it difficult that you can't see at least 95% of my friends being Christian. What exactly have I ever said of the Christian faith? I insult DS because she presents herself in an unchristian fashion. Your analogy is stupid and pointless, and it only brings in another totally unrelated topic.

quote:And yeah, I think DS is prideful sometimes, in fact, quite often...but almost every single person in this forum is the same way; we just see DS do it more often because she posts volumes more than even Sephiroth. Please, I'm not expecting you to agree with me, just understand why I think you are over-criticizing DS. Not a single person enters into a heart-felt argument believing they are wrong, generally leading to a high-horse attitude...yes, some of us are better able to admit faults of our own than others, but it doesn't make us more humble...possibly more self-aware, but not more humble. She enters into more arguments on here than any of us, so naturally there are more examples of her not seeing faults of her own...criticizing her at every turn when countless other posters are doing the exact same thing, in my opinion (and I understand it as just that), is ignorant Christian-bashing.

I don't do it because other people do it, I do it because it bothers me as a spiritual person. Stop buying into her martyr complex, you'll see much clearer, I assure you.

I already explained why I do it, so if you can't understand that then just don't bother me about it.

quote:This in particular...my response shall be this: You find a single human that isn't a hypocrite and I'll pull a rainbow striped unicorn out of my ass.[/B]

It's not just hypocrisy, it's condemnation of others at the same time. When a Christian dies they go to Heaven; when a Muslim dies, they go to Heaven; when an Asatruar dies, they go to Hel (one l) or Valhalla.

I would never apply my beliefs to someone else: it's something called respect.

By the way, you are only sticking up for DS because you believe we are ganging up on her as if we had planned it. This is totally untrue, though, so you can go back about your regular business.

"By the way, you are only sticking up for DS because you believe we are ganging up on her as if we had planned it. This is totally untrue, though, so you can go back about your regular business."

I'm not sticking up for DS. I'm calling you on your consistent attacking of her, and your consistent ignoring of the very same behavior in almost everyone else. If you were just the type of person to knock the stool out from under anyone being prideful, I'd have kept quiet...but DS is almost exclusively the target, which is bullshit.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

It's not Christian bashing. I think 95% of my friends are Christian. I have no problem with them, and as you pointed out, it's only DS. Doesn't that in itself tell you something? "I've only seen [me] point out the hypocrisy in others maybe three or four times"

If your friends do not talk to you about Christ, and do not wear their Christianity on their sleeve, they are "lukewarm" according to the Bible, and will be SPIT OUT. Those are Gods own words.

If they aren't telling you about God, they are doing you a disservice as your friend. They don't care enough about you to see you in heaven. That's sad.

The way they behave is not necessarily correct, just because they claim to be Christian.

The Bible tells us exactly what is expected of us. I don't believe for one second you have a problem with my being too arrogant, but that I am being too Christian for you.

I believe it has been pointed out by several others that I am not perceived, as a whole, as being arrogant.

Only those that have contention with the conviction of my faith seem to. Coincidence ? I think not.

quote:I do it to DS because she rides in on a high horse, which is the opposite of how a Christian should act. I've never seen someone as arrogant or blatantly offensive as her, and she doesn't even have to try to be that way. Maybe you think I'm being too hard on her, but I like to think it will help her realize that there are different ways to go about this.

No, you do it to me because you get some sort of sick satisfaction out of it. You don't strike me as someone that is overtly philanthropic, so I highly doubt your motives are purely to benefit the members of the forum.

You aren't helping me realize anything, and that statement ALONE shows your hypocrisy. You trying to make me a better person by belittling me ? HA ! If THAT isn't arrogant, I don't know what is !

I don't ride on a high horse. But you can think that, if you want to. It seems to make you feel better about hating me.

THIS is the way I go about it. It's not going to change.

quote:"You're wrong and I'm right" doesn't cut it, especially when you can't even live up to it yourself.

No, it is more of, "Christianity is misunderstood, and it is my duty to change that."

I spend most of my time here correcting misperceptions about Christianity. This is not some sort of crusade, nor is it my desire to prove everyone wrong, on most occasions.

I am not a man, I do not think like you and Rust do.

I get extremely angry at the erroneous way Christianity is presented by members of this forum, not to mention the whole world. If I sit back and do nothing about it, I will pay the consequences in the after life.

That is my mission.

Don't try and pretend that you are this "bleeding heart" for the people.

You have deluded yourself into thinking that you are helping people out by ridiculing me, when all you are doing is looking like a jerk with nothing better to do.

quote:Note once again that I have NEVER preached my religion here; only humility and an intelligent approach.

VERY GOOD POINT. You don't.

So, what are you doing here ?

You are anything but humble, assuming that your position and opinion of me is far superior to the truth.

Since you don't contribute in the way of religious debate, you should cease to frequent here.

Just a little philanthropic advice from one Totsean to another.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-14-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

This is just ridiculous.

If Christianity or any other form of theism for that matter, did not affect an atheist in any way shape or form, then you would have a point, but the fact is it does.

It has a very strong effect on education, on politics, and on the legal system.

Thus what you call the 'shoving of beliefs down people's throat' is in reality a reaction to the presence of theism in every aspect of our lives.

Hmm...lemme just see if turning the tables still makes these statements correct.

quote:

If atheism, or any other form of paganism for that matter, did not affect a Christian in any way shape or form, then you would have a point, but the fact is it does.

It has a very strong effect on education, on politics, and on the legal system.

Thus what you call the 'shoving of beliefs down people's throat' is in reality a reaction to the presence of atheism in every aspect of our lives.

Yup. That'll do.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

If your friends do not talk to you about Christ, and do not wear their Christianity on their sleeve, they are "lukewarm" according to the Bible, and will be SPIT OUT. Those are Gods own words.

If they aren't telling you about God, they are doing you a disservice as your friend. They don't care enough about you to see you in heaven. That's sad.

The way they behave is not necessarily correct, just because they claim to be Christian.

The Bible tells us exactly what is expected of us. I don't believe for one second you have a problem with my being too arrogant, but that I am being too Christian for you.

I believe it has been pointed out by several others that I am not perceived, as a whole, as being arrogant.

Only those that have contention with the conviction of my faith seem to. Coincidence ? I think not.

Hex, did you read that? You have all the answers you're looking for right there.

quote:No, you do it to me because you get some sort of sick satisfaction out of it

Put any sort of spin on it that you want, I really don't care.

quote:You don't strike me as someone that is overtly philanthropic, so I highly doubt your motives are purely to benefit the members of the forum.

It's mostly to benefit you. By helping you, it would help other people here.

Also, it would help if you knew me, which you don't. You know nothing about me.

quote:You aren't helping me realize anything, and that statement ALONE shows your hypocrisy. You trying to make me a better person by belittling me ? HA ! If THAT isn't arrogant, I don't know what is !

Nothing else gets through. It isn't hypocrisy to try to help someone and they won't accept your help.

quote:I don't ride on a high horse. But you can think that, if you want to. It seems to make you feel better about hating me.

Oh, please. No one fucking hates you, although that's all you want to think.

What happened, did daddy abuse you as a kid? You are the religious version of an attention whore.

quote:No, it is more of, "Christianity is misunderstood, and it is my duty to change that."

Yes, it's misunderstood, but you are one of the people making it that way. Take a look at jackketch, because HE is doing Christianity a favour. You are souring the message because of your ignorance.

quote:This is not some sort of crusade, nor is it my desire to prove everyone wrong, on most occasions.

Yeah, it's worse: you just want attention. I can see that from your multitude of 'everyone hates me' posts.

quote:I am not a man, I do not think like you and Rust do.

I know plenty of women who think reasonably, it has nothing to do with your lack of a dick.

quote:Don't try and pretend that you are this "bleeding heart" for the people.

You have deluded yourself into thinking that you are helping people out by ridiculing me, when all you are doing is looking like a jerk with nothing better to do.

I don't care if you think I look like a jerk, because at some point it may open up your eyes. You are like a cancer on this forum, not because you're Christian but because you're an attention whore. There are about 5 other attention whores over in Sex & Affection, maybe you'll fit in better over there. Everyone's always trying to pump up their egos.

quote:VERY GOOD POINT. You don't.

So, what are you doing here ?

You are anything but humble, assuming that your position and opinion of me is far superior to the truth.

Since you don't contribute in the way of religious debate, you should cease to frequent here.

Just a little philanthropic advice from one Totsean to another.

I am most certainly a humble person, I do not boast about anything, least of all my religion. You fail to see the truth, which is why you believe you are this poor down-trodden creature here. Fact is, you're as much of an asshole as anyone else. Everyone else will admit it, at least.

I am here for religious debate, not to push my beliefs. I know a good deal about many religions (which is more than I can say for you), so I share that when I get a chance. Most of the time, things I would say are already said by the time I get to see the topics. No need in being repetitive.

And actually, all you do is serve to initiate arguments, not debate. Maybe you shouldn't be here.

Being that I was just recently modded, I would venture to say that you stand alone in your opinion of whether or not my posts here hold any merit.

I'll get ot the rest of that rubbish tomorrow.