If there is a God and if it is truly omniscient and benevolent then it must know the most benevolent thing to do and it must take the most benevolent path...

So does God have free will?

God flooded the world, killing everyone except Noah and his family. Doesn't sound very benevolent to me.

quote:Originally posted by Haddock:

God flooded the world, killing everyone except Noah and his family. Doesn't sound very benevolent to me.

because the world was full of evil

quote:Originally posted by vazilizaitsev89:

because the world was full of evil

Define evil. The Bible says no one is completely clear of sin, so Noah must've been a sinner just like all the rest of them. I seriously doubt everyone in the world went around murdering, stealing, and raping, except Noah and his do-goody type family.

But I suppose Noah was collectively the least evil person of the whole world, eh? Psh.

God can create excuses to do "bad" things, like with the flood. Or how he allowed Job to be tortured for no real reason. So anything he does is right basically because he says so. Not saying I believe in what the Bible says, but that's how I interpret it.

This all calls into question the omnipotence of God.

It's like the age old question can God make a boulder so heavy that he himself can not lift it?

If he can then he cannot lift it which means he's not omnipotent, if he cant then he's not omnipotent.

Only real answer.

We dont know.

-Val

quote:Originally posted by Haddock:

God flooded the world, killing everyone except Noah and his family. Doesn't sound very benevolent to me.

You idea of benevolence is based solely on human understanding, which is flawed, a BEST.

You also fail to see the little importance our physical bodies hold to God. Your life is everything to you, because it's all you've got. Think about what God has !!

Many of those people who perished in the flood DID believe in God. Because of this, they went to heaven.

I am not trying to romantacize it, but your perpective on the whole thing is way off.

You can't possibly know what benevolence is on God's level.

quote:Originally posted by whocares123:

Define evil. The Bible says no one is completely clear of sin, so Noah must've been a sinner just like all the rest of them. I seriously doubt everyone in the world went around murdering, stealing, and raping, except Noah and his do-goody type family.

But I suppose Noah was collectively the least evil person of the whole world, eh? Psh.

God can create excuses to do "bad" things, like with the flood. Or how he allowed Job to be tortured for no real reason. So anything he does is right basically because he says so. Not saying I believe in what the Bible says, but that's how I interpret it.

He had a heart for God...

Once again, CHRISTIANS AREN'T PERFECT, JUST FORGIVEN !

"Do-goody" ? Yes, let's ridicule them for doing what is right in the sight of the Lord. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Excuses ? WE ARE HIS CREATION. He doesn't need a reason to wipe us out.

The pot cannot shake it's proverbial fist at the potter for throwing it back in the kiln to start over, aiming for perfection...

God allowed SATAN to torture Job, to prove a point. A very valid point, that rings true to Christians to this very day. Job's reward for remaining faithful, even in the midst of adversity, is GREAT.

God is righteous and just. So, yes. Everything He does is right, on God's level.

God can do what he wants with what he created.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



You can't possibly know what benevolence is on God's level.

This is completely wrong.

God's benevolence must entail him being all loving, and everything he does being good, because that's exactly what the Bible states it entails.

Since he does evil/bad, it means that not only is the bible flawed, but that the Christian god doesn't exist.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-09-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You idea of benevolence is based solely on human understanding, which is flawed, a BEST.

You also fail to see the little importance our physical bodies hold to God. Your life is everything to you, because it's all you've got. Think about what God has !!

Many of those people who perished in the flood DID believe in God. Because of this, they went to heaven.

I am not trying to romantacize it, but your perpective on the whole thing is way off.

You can't possibly know what benevolence is on God's level.

Uh excuse me if I'm wrong DS, but didn't God himself teach us that it's wrong to kill? Thats one his laws right? Then how is it not kinda hypocritical for him to turn around and wipe out all but one family on the earth? I guess this is just another case of "Do as I say, not as I do" huh?

quote:Originally posted by Haddock:

God flooded the world, killing everyone except Noah and his family. Doesn't sound very benevolent to me.

http://www.drgeorgepc.com/TsunamiFAQ.html

Yah GODS A REAL FUCKING BASTARD

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

He had a heart for God...

Once again, CHRISTIANS AREN'T PERFECT, JUST FORGIVEN !

"Do-goody" ? Yes, let's ridicule them for doing what is right in the sight of the Lord. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

If the lord would be nice enough to show himself to the rest of us maybe we'd be "doing whats right too" but since hes too busy resting after sending plagues and floods to wipe out the population... we're just going to have to stick with hell.

Excuses ? WE ARE HIS CREATION. He doesn't need a reason to wipe us out.

My kids are my creation, that doesnt mean i dont need an excuse to kill them

The pot cannot shake it's proverbial fist at the potter for throwing it back in the kiln to start over, aiming for perfection...

sure it can. if you have a child born with a deformity you cant just kill and eat it saying you want to try again aiming for perfection.

God allowed SATAN to torture Job, to prove a point. A very valid point, that rings true to Christians to this very day. Job's reward for remaining faithful, even in the midst of adversity, is GREAT.

And who created satan? Plus god (being omniscient and all) should have known Job would remain faithful without making him endure the torture.

God is righteous and just. So, yes. Everything He does is right, on God's level.

Well thats God's buisness. Us common-folk with stick with dictionary definitions of righteous and just. which just happen to be:

Morally upright; without guilt or sin: a righteous parishioner.

In accordance with virtue or morality: a righteous judgment.

(see "thou salt not KILL)

Consistent with what is morally right

(see above)

quote:Originally posted by Nemisis:

Uh excuse me if I'm wrong DS, but didn't God himself teach us that it's wrong to kill? Thats one his laws right? Then how is it not kinda hypocritical for him to turn around and wipe out all but one family on the earth? I guess this is just another case of "Do as I say, not as I do" huh?



God cannot bind himself by any laws, so the 10 commandments don't apply to him.

Plus, if you actually believe the flood story, then God would have only been killing sinners.

I don't think God is like a being. The concept of a being is just based on what we know from our earthly experience. The type of level a creator would exist on couldn't even be singular and seperated like we are on earth. He is not a being in the sense he is conscious of his actions. He does not act, there cannot be a motion or event described that he has done. It's impossible to try and imagine a creator that is just the same as the creations.

That's the only thing that makes sense.

Nothing else works, for example. Consciousness is just a property of the life we live in the physical world. Based on everything material. So saying that the being responsible for creating consciousness is conscious itself is contradictory. God is not being, God is a place, or a thing, not a person. A person is the farthest thing from the true meaning of God. A person is ignorant and materialistic, biased. It's insulting to compare God to the two, and that's what people are doing when they try to imagine God existing in the same way we do.

quote:Originally posted by vazilizaitsev89:

because the world was full of evil

i guess we should be expecting a flood soon then huh? and if jehova had real power, then yes, he would have free will. furthermore, if he did, he wasted it, deciding to create a degenerate race that we know a humanity.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

He had a heart for God...

Once again, CHRISTIANS AREN'T PERFECT, JUST FORGIVEN !

"Do-goody" ? Yes, let's ridicule them for doing what is right in the sight of the Lord. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Excuses ? WE ARE HIS CREATION. He doesn't need a reason to wipe us out.

The pot cannot shake it's proverbial fist at the potter for throwing it back in the kiln to start over, aiming for perfection...

God allowed SATAN to torture Job, to prove a point. A very valid point, that rings true to Christians to this very day. Job's reward for remaining faithful, even in the midst of adversity, is GREAT.

God is righteous and just. So, yes. Everything He does is right, on God's level.

Holy shit, when did they make you a mod?

I know he doesn't need a reason to wipe us out, that's what I was saying, only I said it as "he makes his own excuses," or he can make his own reason.

And I made a point of not saying "god tortured job." I said "he allowed Job to be tortured." Although out of all the books of the Bible, Job has got to be the one that you can't possibly believe actually happened. It's just a fictional explanation for why we suffer. But we'll find out when you go to heaven and meet the real Job, eh?

Speaking of taking the Bible literally, do you believe the flood happened, DS? Because well, that would just be fucking stupid, knowing what we know now.

"Speaking of taking the Bible literally, do you believe the flood happened, DS? Because well, that would just be fucking stupid, knowing what we know now."

It's fucking stupid to not believe the flood happened. What is ridiculous IMO though is to think it was world-wide. Reasonably, it was probably a massive flood that affected much of North Africa and a good portion of the Middle East, maybe even lower Europe. With current knowledge of how that could even happen though, chances are that the flood was caused by a tsunami resulting from a mountain face falling into the sea or possibly the ocean.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

This is completely wrong.

God's benevolence must entail him being all loving, and everything he does being good, because that's exactly what the Bible states it entails.

What is "being all loving" to GOD ? Do you know ? I sure don't. NO ONE DOES, because we cannot understand God on that level. We know what all loving is to US, but certainly not as it applies to God.

He doesn't do things that are good. He IS, and it IS good.

You have either misunderstood the Bible, or you are making that up.

quote:Since he does evil/bad, it means that not only is the bible flawed, but that the Christian god doesn't exist.

God does not "DO" evil !! *laughs* If He kills someone, it is not evil, since He is the creator, and we are the created.

Satan intriduces evil to the world, and all evil really means is "against God". God is life, so death (which was introduced into the world when Satan convinced Eve to consume the apple) is against Him.

Your lack of understanding the Bible does not make it flawed.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



What is "being all loving" to GOD ? Do you know ? I sure don't. NO ONE DOES, because we cannot understand God on that level. We know what all loving is to US, but certainly not as it applies to God.

He doesn't do things that are good. He IS, and it IS good.

You have either misunderstood the Bible, or you are making that u

Are you claiming that the bible never states that he is good, or that he must do good (which one is irrelevant because the point still stands)?

As long as the bible states that, then Christianity is put in a position where either the bible is flawed, or god is evil.



quote:God does not "DO" evil !! *laughs* If He kills someone, it is not evil, since He is the creator, and we are the created.

Satan introduces evil to the world, and all evil really means is "against God". God is life, so death (which was introduced into the world when Satan convinced Eve to consume the apple) is against Him.

Your lack of understanding the Bible does not make it flawed.

Wrong. He created sin, or at least the possibility of sin existing, when he did not have to. That is evil.

Either the bible is flawed, or god has done evil. Either way Christianity fails.

quote:Originally posted by Nemisis:

Uh excuse me if I'm wrong DS, but didn't God himself teach us that it's wrong to kill? Thats one his laws right? Then how is it not kinda hypocritical for him to turn around and wipe out all but one family on the earth? I guess this is just another case of "Do as I say, not as I do" huh?



If we had breathed life into ourselves in order to perpetuate existence, then yes...it would be hypocritical.

You cannot pin human qualities on God, for starters.

Secondly, God is the CREATOR. As I said before, the pot cannot shake it's fist at the potter for throwing it back in the kiln for the want of perfecting it.

He is the reason for our being, and since He is all that is good, righteous, and just, it is not unreasonable to say that what He chose to do in Noah's case was divine.

As I also said before, to US, life is all we've got, and is therefore more precious to us than anything else.

However, our physical body's are of little consequence to Almighty God. The soul is ultimately His concern.

So, we can safely say that the level upon which He thinks of us is drastically different, and far superior, to the level upon which we think of ourselves.

It may not seem fair to us, but eh....we're human.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

He had a heart for God...

Once again, CHRISTIANS AREN'T PERFECT, JUST FORGIVEN !

"Do-goody" ? Yes, let's ridicule them for doing what is right in the sight of the Lord.

quote:Posted by Sarith:

If the lord would be nice enough to show himself to the rest of us maybe we'd be "doing whats right too" but since hes too busy resting after sending plagues and floods to wipe out the population... we're just going to have to stick with hell.

He has shown Himself. Those that want to seek Him are more than welcome to, and do not come out of the experience empty handed.

It is YOU that stops yourself from "seeing" God, so do not blame Him.

And just because I am a Christian doesn't mean I always do what is right. I don't.

He isn't resting...and I sense some resentment ? *grin*

quote:Posted by Digital Savior:

Excuses ? WE ARE HIS CREATION. He doesn't need a reason to wipe us out.

quote:Posted by Sarith:

My kids are my creation, that doesnt mean i dont need an excuse to kill them.

There you go making a man out of God again.

Traditional understanding of what is right and wrong does not apply to God. HE "IS", and it IS good.

You are also not a god, in any sense of the term. Your children are not the same in value to you as we are to God.

quote:Posted by Digital Savior:

The pot cannot shake it's proverbial fist at the potter for throwing it back in the kiln to start over, aiming for perfection...

quote:Posted by Sarith:

sure it can. if you have a child born with a deformity you cant just kill and eat it saying you want to try again aiming for perfection.

No, it can't. The pot is so much dumber than the potter, that it cannot begin to understand the pretense of being put into the "refiner's fire."

Again, we are not God. Anything we do cannot be compared to what God does. He is spiritual, and we are not. He is all knowing, and therefore all wise, and we are not.

quote:Posted by Digital Savior:

God allowed SATAN to torture Job, to prove a point. A very valid point, that rings true to Christians to this very day. Job's reward for remaining faithful, even in the midst of adversity, is GREAT.

quote:Posted by Sarith:

And who created satan? Plus god (being omniscient and all) should have known Job would remain faithful without making him endure the torture.

The fact that God created Staan is irrelevant. He knew what Satan would do long before he was created.

God did not allow Satan to test Job because HE didn't know what would happen. He knew Job would be faithful. He allowed it to happen to be a lesson to the multitude of humans that would read about Job later on. It was an example, and as I said, a very good one.

NOTE: Job was given ten times what he had prior to his suffering. Even though God didn't have to, He certainly made it up to Job, knowing what brings a man joy in this world (family, and possessions).

quote:Posted by Digital Savior:

God is righteous and just. So, yes. Everything He does is right, on God's level.

quote:Posted by Sarith:

Well thats God's buisness. Us common-folk with stick with dictionary definitions of righteous and just. which just happen to be:

Morally upright; without guilt or sin: a righteous parishioner.

In accordance with virtue or morality: a righteous judgment.

(see "thou salt not KILL)

Consistent with what is morally right

(see above)

God sets the standard for what is good. Not us.

As a side note, in the future could you please try and construct your posts in a fashion that is not so cumbersome to the reader, not to mention the responder ?

It would be great if you could separate what YOU say from what WE say. Format wise, it will be easier on all of us.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

This is completely wrong.

God's benevolence must entail him being all loving, and everything he does being good, because that's exactly what the Bible states it entails.

Since he does evil/bad, it means that not only is the bible flawed, but that the Christian god doesn't exist.



There is no verse of the Bible which states that everything that God creates is good.

There are however quite a few which indicate that God is the creator of both that which is deemed good and that which is deemed evil.

quote:Isaiah 45:7

[I am the One]Who forms light and creates darkness; Who makes peace and creates evil; I am Hashem, Maker of all these.

quote:Lamentations 3:37,38

Whose decree was ever fulfilled, if the Lord did not ordain it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that evil and good emanate?

Of course this doesn't create as many theological problems for Judaism as it does for Christianity, because the God of the Tanakh is to a certain extent conditional in His benevolence. Also, what is benevolence without the presence of evil? What is life without death, light without darkness, peace without tribulation, et cetera? The presence of evil in this world, or at least the potential of it is a theological necessity for God's plan to have any meaning.

Now certain Jewish authorities maintain, on the basis of Kabbalah, that God does not create absolute evil, only the potential for it, that the 'evil' encounter in this world is merely a blessing in disguise, and the lowest form of the emanations of cosmic goodness. However if we deal poorly with these inputs from the Almighty, they can become an emanation of cosmic evil, but the guilt therefore lies with us and the existence of that potential allowed us the freewill to come to that conclusion.

quote:The Baal Shem Tov

Tzva'at Harivash

124



One might wonder: In context of the creation, the Torah states several times [“it was good;” and at the conclusion thereof (Genesis 1:31)] “and behold it was very good.” In the Book of Deuteronomy, however, it is written, “See, I have placed before you life and the good, and death and the evil.” (Deuteronomy 30:15) Where did the evil come from?

One cannot interpret this in line with our speaking of real evil. 1 [In actuality,] the “evil,” too, is good, except that it is the lowest level of absolute good. 2 This is alluded in the Zohar’s reference to “mile’eil umile’ra-from above and from below.” 3

Thus when effecting good, the evil, too, becomes good. 4 But when sinning, Heaven forbid, it becomes real evil. 5 Take, for example, a broom for sweeping the house: in context of clearing the house it has some good quality. It [may be] a low level, but it is still good. But when it is used to hit a child doing some wrong, the broom becomes truly evil when hitting the child.6

FOOTNOTES

<OL TYPE=1>

<LI>Evil cannot be a real entity on its own, independent of (and opposed to) goodness and holiness, for that would imply the heresy of dualism. By the same token one cannot say that there is real evil, albeit created by God: God is the very essence of pure goodness, thus only good can come from Him. Yet we do experience evil on earth, and, as said, the Torah itself states “I have placed before you.. death and the evil.” What then is that which we call evil?

<LI>All that God created is good. By means of tzimtzum (Divine Self-contraction), a process of devolution brought about crude matter and the lowest entities to be found on earth. The source and core of all beings, however, is pure spirituality, absolute good. Without the Divine spark inherent in all beings, they could not exist. Thus even those things that are forbidden and condemned by the Torah, and constitute that which we call evil, are rooted in Divine goodness. They came about to enable man’s self-realization by proving him with the options of free choice (“life and the good” vs. “death and the evil”). The things the Torah calls evil are truly evil relative to ourselves. In their origin (and their intended purpose), however, they are really good.

This principle is explained in terms of a popular parable in the Zohar II:163a: A king provided his son with the best education and instructions to lead an exemplary moral life. To test his son’s obedience and devotion, he hired a beautiful and clever woman and ordered her to seduce the prince. That woman used every blandishment to tempt the prince, but he rejected her allurements. Needless to say, this brought great joy to the king and he rewarded his son with precious gifts and honors. Now, who was instrumental in bringing all that glory to the prince? None other but the temptress! Thus she is to be praised on all counts: she fulfilled the king’s orders, and through her the prince became worthy of his rewards and an intensified love from his father. (Cf. also below, sect. 138.)

That which we call evil, therefore, is, in effect, a “base (lit., “seat”) for good” (see above, sect. 126-127, note 6). In essence, in terms of its origin (and purpose), it is good. As it descends to its mundane manifestation, however, the good is altogether concealed and invisible, and all we see is but the truly evil shell.

<LI>The reference appears to be to Zohar I:49b which discusses how things below are rooted in the spiritual categories of above: the yetzer hara has a spiritual source, it is rooted in goodness above, but it itself becomes manifest in evil below.

The terms mile’eil and milera do not actually appear there, but are synony*mous with the terms in that passage. They lend themselves to our context: mi*lera (from below) is interpreted as an expression of ra (evil); that is, “from below” it is “evil,” though mile’eil (from above) it is really good. See also below, sect. 132, note 7.

<LI>See above, note 2.

<LI>The kelipot (i.e., the realm of evil) exist only by virtue of the Divine will. They are sustained by sparks of holiness deeply embedded within them, albeit in limited measure that is just sufficient for their intended purpose. When man sins, however, he infuses additional vitality and energy into the kelipot (see above, sect. 9) which empowers them to go beyond tempting man, to try and “conquer and prevail with full force.” Thus it becomes real evil.

<LI>The broom per se is morally neutral. In essence it is mere potentiality: when used for good, its potential for good is realized and confers goodness upon itself. When used for evil, its potential for evil is realized and confers evil upon itself.</OL>

quote:Posted by Rust:

Are you claiming that the bible never states that he is good, or that he must do good (which one is irrelevant because the point still stands)?

As long as the bible states that, then Christianity is put in a position where either the bible is flawed, or god is evil.

Shouldn't you be modding somewhere ? *grin* http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Are you even taking into consideration the "end result" of all God's actions and decisions ?

When you break each instance apart, they can be perceived as completely unfair.

BUT, we understand omnibenevolence to be "a disposition to do good." Is this definition to be confined to each individual instance, or the overall outcome of the conglomeration of said instances ? If it is to be confined, this is based on what ?

I have never seen the real question adressed : what does it mean to be good, or omnibenevolent for that matter, for a god ? It seems to be always implied in discussions on God's nature that a god's morality should be the same as ours because we use the same word, "good".

But that is a non sequitur. Since our morality is, obviously, human in nature, why should we expect a divine being to have the same standards of morality apply to it ? That is, keeping with the same concepts of "morality" and "good", can we expect a god to value the same things as us ? The answer is : there is no necessary reason to think that, and good reasons to think that it would be different. For one, a god would not value life as highly as we do, since it is eternal. A god has no body so it would not value things related to bodies, like eating or breathing.

In that respect, it may be said that all our values are related to bodies, and as such divine morality would have absolutely nothing to do with ours, but that may just be speculation on my part. Any Christians here know some scripture that may deal with this issue ?

The question "what is good for X ?" is basically the same as the question "what is moral for X ?". But since a god's morality is potentially different then ours, how can we associate our own morality with a god's ? Even if we assume values we understand, we cannot assume that a god would hold our values in the same way and with the same importances.

It is just ludicrous to pretend that we can know His morality and goodness, in it's true form. We do not think that way, and we never will.

An objection could be that if God is necessarily good, then he would not create evil, but there is no a priori reason to believe that the creator would necessarily make perfect creations.

Since God is both immortal and infinite, His actions are not going towards survival, nor towards flourishing. There are therefore two alternatives : either divine morality is based on other kinds of values, or the concept of divine morality is meaningless. Again, there is not a priori reason to believe that there are actions that are better then others for a god, objectively speaking.

The Bible tells us that God is omnibenevolent. Since we believe the Bible to be the divinely inspired word of God, we believe it is true. Since we believe what God says to be true, we can believe Him when He says He is good.

If we can't believe Him, He is a liar. In which case, we could never know.

quote:Posted by Rust:

Wrong. He created sin, or at least the possibility of sin existing, when he did not have to. That is evil.

Either the bible is flawed, or god has done evil. Either way Christianity fails.

Are you the final authority on what is "evil" ? Some believe that "evil" is still good, since it assist's "good" to it's final sum.

God did not have to create us. True. But He did; but since we think we are suffering, HE is evil ? He most likely sees our suffering in a very finite sense...which completely changes the perception of what is fair and what is not.

Christianity fails for those who do not understand it.

But that's ok...most Christians don't understand it completely. I am guilty of this, but I will spend my life trying to.

Haha, Ds, your posts have about as many contradictions as the bible. So, where to start...

quote:the pot cannot shake it's fist at the potter for throwing it back in the kiln for the want of perfecting it.

The potter would not have to throw it back in the kiln for the want of perfecting it if the potter was omniscient and omnipotent. Would he.

quote:He has shown Himself.

No. 'IT' hasn't.

quote:There you go making a man out of God again.

You were the first to make a man out of God when you made the potter analogy.

quote:Again, we are not God. Anything we do cannot be compared to what God does

Yet you compared us making pots to God making life.

quote:He is spiritual

What exactly does that mean?? and why are you referring to God as a male?

quote:He allowed it to happen to be a lesson to the multitude of humans that would read about Job later on.

Was it neccesary for God to actually allow this to happen to Job? If it was for the benefit of humans that would read about Job later on, then could God just have made the tale up?

quote:Isaiah 45:7

[I am the One]Who forms light and creates darkness; Who makes peace and creates evil; I am Hashem, Maker of all these.

Surely God would know that you can't create darkness, and that darkness is just the absence of light.

quote:BUT, we understand omnibenevolence to be "a disposition to do good." Is this definition to be confined to each individual instance, or the overall outcome of the conglomeration of said instances ? If it is to be confined, this is based on what ?

You are saying that the means justifies the end? Do you even agree with that statement?

quote:Christianity fails for those who do not understand it.

Haha, that quote made my day http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) thanks. Unfortunatly, you got it wrong.

"Christianity fails for those who do understand it." would have been more accurate.



Ds, if it was not considered a sin to kill yourself, would you take your own life?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Are you even taking into consideration the "end result" of all God's actions and decisions ?

When you break each instance apart, they can be perceived as completely unfair.

BUT, we understand omnibenevolence to be "a disposition to do good." Is this definition to be confined to each individual instance, or the overall outcome of the conglomeration of said instances ? If it is to be confined, this is based on what ?

If he is omnipotent and omniscient, then it takes the same amount of time, the same amount of energy, the same amount of work, and the same amount of mental strain to make it so that good happens in those "individual cases" or evil. If he chose that evil happen in those individual cases, then of course he is not benevolent; regardless of what happens "overall".

quote:I have never seen the real question adressed : what does it mean to be good, or omnibenevolent for that matter, for a god ? It seems to be always implied in discussions on God's nature that a god's morality should be the same as ours because we use the same word, "good".

But that is a non sequitur. Since our morality is, obviously, human in nature, why should we expect a divine being to have the same standards of morality apply to it ? That is, keeping with the same concepts of "morality" and "good", can we expect a god to value the same things as us ? The answer is : there is no necessary reason to think that, and good reasons to think that it would be different. For one, a god would not value life as highly as we do, since it is eternal. A god has no body so it would not value things related to bodies, like eating or breathing.

In that respect, it may be said that all our values are related to bodies, and as such divine morality would have absolutely nothing to do with ours, but that may just be speculation on my part. Any Christians here know some scripture that may deal with this issue ?

The question "what is good for X ?" is basically the same as the question "what is moral for X ?". But since a god's morality is potentially different then ours, how can we associate our own morality with a god's ? Even if we assume values we understand, we cannot assume that a god would hold our values in the same way and with the same importances.

It is just ludicrous to pretend that we can know His morality and goodness, in it's true form. We do not think that way, and we never will.

An objection could be that if God is necessarily good, then he would not create evil, but there is no a priori reason to believe that the creator would necessarily make perfect creations.

Since God is both immortal and infinite, His actions are not going towards survival, nor towards flourishing. There are therefore two alternatives : either divine morality is based on other kinds of values, or the concept of divine morality is meaningless. Again, there is not a priori reason to believe that there are actions that are better then others for a god, objectively speaking.

The Bible tells us that God is omnibenevolent. Since we believe the Bible to be the divinely inspired word of God, we believe it is true. Since we believe what God says to be true, we can believe Him when He says He is good.

If we can't believe Him, He is a liar. In which case, we could never know.

This is you grasping at straws. Christians are the ones who speak of "good" in our moral sense when they say he's benevolent, and that everything he does is "just"! If "benevolence"and "justice" mean other things for a god, things we don't understand, then why would you even mention them? To confuse us? No.

The fact is you're now grasping at straws. At first suffering is allowed to happen because of sin and free will, now since that's been refuted, it happens because we don't understand how benevolence applies to god... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Moreover, if this was the case, then like I said the bible would be flawed since it would have been describing something that is impossible for us to understand. If the bible describes it using OUR words and OUR definitions, then it (benevolence) must mean what we define it to mean! But no, you're claiming it means something else, which then would make it so that the bible is flawed in its description of benevolence.

quote:Are you the final authority on what is "evil" ? Some believe that "evil" is still good, since it assist's "good" to it's final sum.

God did not have to create us. True. But He did; but since we think we are suffering, HE is evil ? He most likely sees our suffering in a very finite sense...which completely changes the perception of what is fair and what is not.

Christianity fails for those who do not understand it.

But that's ok...most Christians don't understand it completely. I am guilty of this, but I will spend my life trying to.

The bible is the final authority on what is evil, since we don't commune with god! The bible clearly states that was god has done is evil. So god is evil. If not, the bible is flawed.

"Surely God would know that you can't create darkness, and that darkness is just the absence of light."

Holy shit! You're quick there. Darkness would not be darkness without the fundamental opposition of light.

By creating light you are not creating darkness, so why would it be said that

"[I am the One]Who forms light and creates darkness"

Some people mistakenly think that prior to creation God was present in a void. That's not actually true. To have a void you must have space. God first created the dimensional space of this lowest plane: i.e. he also created the void. Even the absence of everything, including light, was his creation. God himself makes up the tenth and highest dimensional plane (the first and highest of the ten Heavens). Before creation there was only him, only that plane.

quote:Originally posted by DigitalSavior:

But that is a non sequitur. Since our morality is, obviously, human in nature, why should we expect a divine being to have the same standards of morality apply to it ? That is, keeping with the same concepts of "morality" and "good", can we expect a god to value the same things as us ? The answer is : there is no necessary reason to think that, and good reasons to think that it would be different. For one, a god would not value life as highly as we do, since it is eternal. A god has no body so it would not value things related to bodies, like eating or breathing.

Aren't our lives eternal also? Eternity in heaven or hell after this life, right?

I thought, at least according to Christian beliefs, that we get our morals from the teaching of God, i.e. the Bible.

So it would seem God can do no wrong, right? Even if He came down to you, DS, and said "DS, I am going to kill you right now, and you will go to Hell for all eternity. This is not a test of faith, you will NEVER get out. You have been a good Christian, and deserve entrance to Heaven, but I am sending you to Hell because I feel like it, and that's all I need to justify myself, because everything I do is right."

How would you react to that?

It wouldn't happen. The Law says that the judgements and testaments of God are true and that he renders reward to the righteous and punishment to the unjust. If he did not give the righteous their reward, he would be overturning his word. He can overturn his word, but it would unmake the universe, as it was created on the strength of his word, if he were to revoke that strength, the creation resting upon it would disappear.

If he's omnipotent then he must have the power to go back on his word, without unmaking the universe.

Omnipotence is a bitch, huh?