Ok, so I couldn't post for a frickin week, so I hope everyone understands why I didn't answer. I wasn't ignoring ya.

Anyway, since I didn't dedicate this thread to anyone, hopefully it will stay open, since it IS a religious debate...or has the potential to be, anyway.

First, I will start with the question:

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quote:Posted by Great Sage

I'm posting this here because I'm not sure if you'll be able to reply to me in the 'being a good person...' thread.

quote:Posted by Digital Savior

If you are a good person, and live without Christ, you will find yourself in Hell after you die.

quote:

It isn't what you do, it is what is in your heart.

[quote]Posted by Great Sage:

[b]When good peope do good things, its from their heart wether they're christian or not. So make up your mind, if you can only go to heaven by worshiping christ, then it is "what you do", and not "what's in you're heart".

The more I read that quote the more it pisses me off, even though I consider you an intelligent person digi. Pretty much what your saying is, If I'm I'm not christian then my good deeds don't come from my heart. Wtf?

To reiterate, a christians good deeds and intentions come from the heart to the same extent as anyone elses, try and argue this and you lose all credibility in my eyes. So which is the prerequisite to get into heaven, worshiping christ or being a genuinely good person (ie. from the heart)? Pick one awnser, because the combination is very condradictory.

I realize what you might be saying is that you have to have accepted the idea that christ is the lord into your "heart" and not just pout it superficialy, if so, you worded it wrong and caused mucho confusion on my part. If thats the case just say yes, and I'll delete this post.

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First, you misunderstood me, so the confusion is not surprising.

So, let me start off by explaining what I mean by "good".

"Good" to us is very different from "good" to God. We are imperfect creatures, and are unable to set the bar for what good or bad is. We can have a general idea, and even set a high standard one must adhere to, in order to be considered "good", but that measure of goodness, which is designated by fallible man, is simply nowhere close to God's perception of "good". As a side note, HE SETS THE BAR FOR GOOD, not us.

Take, for example, man's varying opinion of what is "good".

I think it is good to give an old lady your seat on a bus. I do it, and it makes me feel good to know I helped someone.

Ted Bundy thought it was good to rape and murder. He did it, and it made him feel good to know he could control life in the manner that he did.

Now, I don't see that as "good", but he did. Someone may not give a damn about the old lady on the bus, but I do.

Since perceptions are so varied based on ethnic background, sexual orientation, upbringing, and several other factors, it is impossible for us to say what is truly good, and what is not.

Next I want to point out that we are nothing like God, mentally. We can't see the things He does, we cannot think the things He does, and we cannot create like He does.

He tells us in the Bible that HE is good, and that all men are born into sin.

Since I am a Christian, I believe that. I don't expect anyone else to, I just think the Bible is the infallible word of God. I have no reason to doubt it.

So, if HE is the model for good, how can we ever hope to achieve something so lofty as being LIKE HIM ?

I was not in ANY way insinuating that good deeds do not come from the heart. Everything comes from the heart.

What I was saying is that good in this instance can be considered to be "pure". In the Bible, an analogy is used of a white robe. We all have one. But it is covered in stains from our sin. We can't get into heaven unless the robe is clean. We can't ever get it clean enough, because we don't have access to the Holy Clorox bottle. *grin* Jesus does, though...and believing that he can wash those blemishes out makes it happen.

If your heart is void of Jesus, then nothing that comes from it is "good" (or pure), since our standards for "good" are WAY off kilter, and as the Bible says in Romans 3:10, "There is no one righteous. No NOT ONE !"

This system was formulated to create a necessity for dependence upon God. Without Him we can't have salvation from our sin, so it had to be this way. At least that's my take on it. Of course, I can't possibly claim to know what God is thinking, outside of scripture.

Whether or not you are Christian, all your deeds come from your heart (good or bad). The condition of the heart is what makes the actions pure or not.

I hope that clarified my position a little.

XTREEM - Do you have something to say on this subject ? Perhaps someone with a little more understanding of the Bible could assist here.

GREAT SAGE - Do you want Bible verses to illustrate my point ?

EVERYONE ELSE - Do you think you are "good" ?

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-09-2005).]

Welcome back DS, you were missed.

And of course it'll stay open.

-Val

I'm not good all the time.

TRIBE !!!!!!!!!

Where ya been, ya little devil ?!

I have my story ready for you...the one you have been waiting so patiently for.

How are you ? You've been missed.

*hugs*

*sees he was modded, too*

God, I better not drink the water. I might catch it !

*curtsies low to Val*

Thanks, m'dear. The abyss was nice, but it's time to come back.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

I'm not good all the time.

But do you think you are a good person ?

i think im a good person. I think i know lots of good people too. Its just that we dont believe in christ so we're all going to hell http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) We figure that if thats the kind of dude god is--to send us to hell for not believing in his son--then we'd rather go to hell than suck up to him. If we're gonna believe in him, its gonna be becuase of some convincing argument, not cause we're shit scared of hell.

Well, you know how I get with this forum, it gets repetitive and bland sometimes. So I've been kinda steering clear for a bit.

Then I got a job as a summer camp counselor so I'm gone from sunday afternoon till friday evening every week for about 7 more weeks, it's a very rewarding experiance though.

As for the story, e-mail me at Sivil125@hotmail.com and feel free to post in on here too I guess, I'm sure many others are interested.

And yeah, I got modded at ...ARR, cause I'm a savage musician namsayin?

I've been doing great.

To continue the thread:

No I do not believe I am a good person inherently, I believe I have the capacity for perfect goodness but I hardly think I am close to it. I think there is a perfect goodness or a lack thereof, I am lacking, therefore I am not a good person. I have my moments of compassion and love, but I am hardly always on that tip.



edit: haha Just noticed you got Modded digi, I knew it would happen someday.

[This message has been edited by aTribeCalledSean (edited 07-09-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, let me start off by explaining what I mean by "good".

"Good" to us is very different from "good" to God. We are imperfect creatures, and are unable to set the bar for what good or bad is. We can have a general idea, and even set a high standard one must adhere to, in order to be considered "good", but that measure of goodness, which is designated by fallible man, is simply nowhere close to God's perception of "good". As a side note, HE SETS THE BAR FOR GOOD, not us.

Take, for example, man's varying opinion of what is "good".

I think it is good to give an old lady your seat on a bus. I do it, and it makes me feel good to know I helped someone.

Ted Bundy thought it was good to rape and murder. He did it, and it made him feel good to know he could control life in the manner that he did.

Now, I don't see that as "good", but he did. Someone may not give a damn about the old lady on the bus, but I do.

Since perceptions are so varied based on ethnic background, sexual orientation, upbringing, and several other factors, it is impossible for us to say what is truly good, and what is not.

Being good is defined as doing the stuff that will benefit the surrounding, the people around you (the society as a whole). Ted Bundy cannot be considered good, because his actions is anti-social.

As long as I haven't been causing major harm to the society, I consider myself good.

Not being perfect is what makes us better than God. Imperfections create unpredictability. God is predictable. Like, he's going to "send" me to hell for calling "Him" predictable. God has no free will, He's a whimsical fart. Like physics.

What a pussy. If He can't take the heat, He shouldn't be God.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Not being perfect is what makes us better than God. Imperfections create unpredictability. God is predictable. Like, he's going to "send" me to hell for calling "Him" predictable. God has no free will, He's a whimsical fart. Like physics.

What a pussy. If He can't take the heat, He shouldn't be God.

Reading my own posts gives me such a huge boner. I bet that's how God whishes He felt. That's why He created me. So He could sit back and write emo poetry in agony and tears at the sight of my greatness, with the calming idea that one day it will all be over, as He will be able to send me to Hell.

This post needs archiving! Not the thread, just my post.

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

i think im a good person. I think i know lots of good people too. Its just that we dont believe in christ so we're all going to hell http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) We figure that if thats the kind of dude god is--to send us to hell for not believing in his son--then we'd rather go to hell than suck up to him. If we're gonna believe in him, its gonna be becuase of some convincing argument, not cause we're shit scared of hell.



My point was that everyone thinks themselves to be good people, so...what does that say about the definition of what is good ?

Since we all think we are good, we'd all qualify ourselves as worthy of Heaven, even though we are clearly not.

This is why we are judged by GOD'S standard of good, and not our own.

For the record, I worship Lord God Almighty. I am in awe of His presence. I do NOT suck up to Him, as it wouldn't make a difference whether I did or not. If I were prone to sucking up, it wouldn't glorify God in the slightest.

Yeah...finally took the time to change over to my account from my brother's. (He was using my shit while I was homeless)

I just have a question: Digi, you're saying human morality is subjective but divine morality is objective?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

XTREEM - Do you have something to say on this subject ? Perhaps someone with a little more understanding of the Bible could assist here.

i wouldnt say that i have MORE understanding of the Bible than you. I think we see things pretty much the same.

In my opinion, i think you said it pretty well. Anything else that i might have maybe added, i'm trying to show in another thread.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



My point was that everyone thinks themselves to be good people, so...what does that say about the definition of what is good ?

Since we all think we are good, we'd all qualify ourselves as worthy of Heaven, even though we are clearly not.

This is why we are judged by GOD'S standard of good, and not our own.

For the record, I worship Lord God Almighty. I am in awe of His presence. I do NOT suck up to Him, as it wouldn't make a difference whether I did or not. If I were prone to sucking up, it wouldn't glorify God in the slightest.

DS.. well we'd probably all worship the Lord almighty as well if there was more evidence of his existance than a few books a few thousand years old.

ps. i figure someone like you or xtreem could answer the lobster and crab question i posted... give it a shot please?

I have asked Sephiroth to address your question about Hebraic dietary laws, since he is a Jew, and is much more knowledgable about such things.

And you claim you would believe in God if you had more conclusive evidence...have you even read the Bible ? I mean ALL OF IT, from cover to cover ?

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

ps. i figure someone like you or xtreem could answer the lobster and crab question i posted... give it a shot please?

i hope it's alright to address this here, since this is where it is address to me.

Basically, what was said in that thread (about kosher, and Jewish law) is the reason.

Right now, without looking in the Bible for an answer (since the NT doesnt say specifically "lobsters and crabs").

I think the answer is in the book of Acts.

The apostles had been debating whether the new (Gentiles) believers would be held accountable to the Jewish Law... i think they had been refering mostly to being circumsized(sp?).

Jesus had told Peter (not in Acts)that whatever Peter bound on earth, would be bound in Heaven... anyway, Peter said, since God's people were given those Laws (dietary and such) by God, those Laws were for God's people, but since God's people could not completely keep them and since the Gentiles are lead to faith because of the Messiah's work on the cross (they already accept Jesus' atonement for their sins), that "yoke" should not be required of non-Jews... i.e. if the Blood of the Lamb has washed away the sins, then it is pointless to call eating lobster a sin.

I had a problem (stumbling block) with this for a long time. Basically, if the OT Laws are not binding us, and since the Ten Commandments are Laws from the OT, then we shouldnt even acknowledge those.

Here is the answer that overcame that stumbling block:

If a person commits only one sin, that person is a sinner. The 10 Commandments are a mirror that show that i have sin. If i am a sinner, than i need something to atone for the sin. By accepting the Christ, my sin is paid for.

Do people need a bigger mirror to see sin?

The answer is yes and no.

Yes, if they think that they have no sin (because they do not realize that they are sinning... how can one keep all 600-plus Commandments 100% of the time).

No, because if one realizes ones own sinful nature, and the need for forgiveness; a bigger mirror does not point out more. One sin makes a person sinful.

I hope this makes sense. I got up late and there was only a half cup of coffee left.. i'm still trying to wake up.