I was going to post this in religion, but I didn't think the conservatives who talk about Islam in here would see it, and I also find it pertinent to foreign policy.

Let's get some things straight for all you conservatives who profess to know a goddamn thing about Islam and its effect on global terrorism.

1. Islam is a very simple religion.

What does this mean? Basically this boils down to the fact that there are only 5 major practices (the five pillers) and no officially sanctioned religious leaders (the Qu'ran doesn't mention the Ayatollah or anyone else). What am I getting at with this? You cannot anoint middle eastern leaders as the official spokesmen of Islam.

2.Jihad DOES NOT MEAN HOLY WAR. For the final fucking time. Jihad means righteous struggle and refers to self-defense and the inner struggle one must undertake.

3.The Qu'ran does not sanction agression or the killing of infidels out of self-defense. Look it up.

4.Islam is a religion of diversity. It supports all races, genders, ages, and people of previous beliefs. Islam is the reason Malcolm X became a more tolerant civil rights leader if you know anything about his history (watch the Spike Lee movie).

Qu'ran passages will be supplied for all those that ask.

quote:1. Islam is a very simple religion.

What does this mean? Basically this boils down to the fact that there are only 5 major practices (the five pillers) and no officially sanctioned religious leaders (the Qu'ran doesn't mention the Ayatollah or anyone else). What am I getting at with this? You cannot anoint middle eastern leaders as the official spokesmen of Islam.

There are many sects of Islam, and many ways to practice as there are in Christianity. The Sunnite sect, for example, believes the Sunna is the best explanation for the Qu'ran. It should be a complex religion to people like you. To people like me, we just need to end it's tyrrany.

quote:4.Islam is a religion of diversity. It supports all races, genders, ages, and people of previous beliefs. Islam is the reason Malcolm X became a more tolerant civil rights leader if you know anything about his history (watch the Spike Lee movie).

Don't trust Spike Lee on history, buddy.

Islam supports all ethnicities... as long as they are Muslim.

And if you want to talk history... look at some of, most of, the African genocides.

quote:Originally posted by Tarnak:

1. Islam is a very simple religion.

What does this mean? Basically this boils down to the fact that there are only 5 major practices (the five pillers) and no officially sanctioned religious leaders (the Qu'ran doesn't mention the Ayatollah or anyone else). What am I getting at with this? You cannot anoint middle eastern leaders as the official spokesmen of Islam.

There are many sects of Islam, and many ways to practice as there are in Christianity. The Sunnite sect, for example, believes the Sunna is the best explanation for the Qu'ran. It should be a complex religion to people like you. To people like me, we just need to end it's tyrrany.

quote:4.Islam is a religion of diversity. It supports all races, genders, ages, and people of previous beliefs. Islam is the reason Malcolm X became a more tolerant civil rights leader if you know anything about his history (watch the Spike Lee movie).

Don't trust Spike Lee on history, buddy.

Islam supports all ethnicities... as long as they are Muslim.

And if you want to talk history... look at some of, most of, the African genocides.

1. Wrong, the Sunnah is the secondary source for Islamic law in some countries...not even a part of the religion. All religions have sects obviously, the point was the Islam is indeed simple. This is impossible to refute.

2. Spike Lee is actually reputed

A. for making good movies

B. for historical accuracy

This isn't specific to his movie though, read a biography of Malcolm X.



I'm sorry but this was supposed to refute my claims? You missed all the important ones.



EDIT: As far as I know there are only two major branches of Islam and they are relatively similar. Count the number of religious sects of Christianity and then do a similar comparison with Anabaptists and Calvinists. Divide by how stupid your remark was.

[This message has been edited by Skankinsasquatch (edited 07-09-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Tarnak:

[QUOTE]

Islam supports all ethnicities... as long as they are Muslim.



From Wikipedia

The root of "dhimmi" is the Arabic "dh-m-m", "dhimma" meaning: "being in the care of". The term initially applied to "People of the Book" living in lands under Muslim rule, namely Jews and Christians. Over time Muslims extended this category to Zoroastrians, Mandeans, and Sikhs. Many, but not all, extend this to Hindus.

Its origin is traced to the Pact of Umar (text): a treaty supposedly drawn up by Umar ibn al-Khattab, the second Caliph, to deal with non-Muslims living on land conquered by Muslims.

In the Middle Ages, the dhimmi concept was tolerant by the standards of the time. Christians and Jews were allowed to live in peace within the Muslim society, on the condition (also required of Muslim subjects) of submission to their rulers. There were many Christian and Jewish scientists that prospered under Muslim rule. An example is the Muslim state of Cordoba in Southern Spain where Christians and Jews prospered. Maimonides, by some considered the greatest Jewish philosopher and Talmudic sage, lived in Muslim Spain, North Africa and Egypt. However, he and his family fled Spain to escape religious persecution after Cordoba was conquered by the less tolerant Muslim Almohads from the Muslim Almoravids, and then fled from North Africa as well, before eventually finding refuge in Egypt. As well, some of his more famous works were his Iggereth Teiman, a letter written to raise the spirits of the severely oppressed Jews of Yemen, and Iggereth HaShmad, an essay on the legal implications of forced conversion to Islam.

As late as the 16th century, religious tolerance in Europe was greatest within the Ottoman Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

Yeah, whatever. But I just gotta ask, why are you so obseesed with defending the bloodthirsty terrorist religon of Islam?

-"Better deceased than praying to the east."

Obviously, Islam changed and mutated after Mohammed's death. So did Christianity with the death of Jesus(well, it really didn't exist before his death, but you know what I mean.)

But when you look at the roots of Islam, you simply cannot ignore what Mohammed did. He was most certainly not a tolerant man. I'm reminded of Qurayza, but I'm sure everyone knows about that already.

Is mainstream Islam an intolerant force today? Probably not. They're insular, but no more so than Jews or any other minority religion.

Mainstream Islam is not the problem, though. Radical Islam is, and no matter how much you try to remind everybody that mainstream Islam is all right, that all flies out the window the second a man is beheaded because of his religion(Daniel Pearl) or innocents are ripped to shreds by bombings.

If you want mainstream Islam to be accepted like the moderate group that it is, you MUST destroy these radical groups that are ruining Islam's rep.

But this begs the question: why haven't the mainstream Muslims figured this out, and if they HAVE, why haven't they publicly stated their desire to destroy the fundamentalists?

It's either because they're afraid of reprisal by the radicals, or they simply support them.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Obviously, Islam changed and mutated after Mohammed's death. So did Christianity with the death of Jesus(well, it really didn't exist before his death, but you know what I mean.)

But when you look at the roots of Islam, you simply cannot ignore what Mohammed did. He was most certainly not a tolerant man. I'm reminded of Qurayza, but I'm sure everyone knows about that already.

Is mainstream Islam an intolerant force today? Probably not. They're insular, but no more so than Jews or any other minority religion.

Mainstream Islam is not the problem, though. Radical Islam is, and no matter how much you try to remind everybody that mainstream Islam is all right, that all flies out the window the second a man is beheaded because of his religion(Daniel Pearl) or innocents are ripped to shreds by bombings.

If you want mainstream Islam to be accepted like the moderate group that it is, you MUST destroy these radical groups that are ruining Islam's rep.

But this begs the question: why haven't the mainstream Muslims figured this out, and if they HAVE, why haven't they publicly stated their desire to destroy the fundamentalists?

It's either because they're afraid of reprisal by the radicals, or they simply support them.

The KKK still remains an active group today, and yet Christianity is still viewed as a peaceful religion.

With every western religion there WILL BE violent sects who claim to use their faith as justification for their actions. We know this. The important point is that the religion itself does not sanction this. Muslims HAVE spoken out against Islamic terrorism and its naive of you to think they havn't. Find out how many countries contacted us after the events of 9/11 to appologize. Do a google search on the words "terrorism" and "kufr" and I guarentee you will find many Muslims against terrorism.

The point in all this is that there are always bad apples. Islam being the current underdogs is the reason I get so defensive about this.

Many of you idiots who know we fight for freedom tend to forget that tolerance is supposed to be an American idea as well. You're practically burning your own flags.

quote:Originally posted by buttthrax:

Yeah, whatever. But I just gotta ask, why are you so obseesed with defending the bloodthirsty terrorist religon of Islam?

-"Better deceased than praying to the east."

Buttthrax you give me a fucking headache.

A. You don't know shit.

B. You don't know shit.

C. You don't listen.

D. You don't read.

E. You have a fucking orgasm everytime a stereotype or ignorant cliche is ever said.

D. You're wasting your money on college with the education you're getting.

By the way, Islam is a western religion.

You fucking dumbass.

quote:Originally posted by Skankinsasquatch:

The KKK still remains an active group today,

Yeah, and they're hated everywhere they go.

quote:Originally posted by Skankinsasquatch:

With every western religion there WILL BE violent sects who claim to use their faith as justification for their actions. We know this. The important point is that the religion itself does not sanction this. Muslims HAVE spoken out against Islamic terrorism and its naive of you to think they havn't.

With every religion there will be violent sects, idiot.

quote:Originally posted by Skankinsasquatch:

The point in all this is that there are always bad apples. Islam being the current underdogs is the reason I get so defensive about this.

No, it's because you're a faggy liberal. Islam isn't the underdogs. Islam is part of the "big three" religions. They have millions of followers over the world.

The underdogs would be the 15 year old goth kids who practice Wiccanism/Paganism.

quote:Originally posted by Skankinsasquatch:

Buttthrax you give me a fucking headache.

A. You don't know shit.

B. You don't know shit.

C. You don't listen.

D. You don't read.

E. You have a fucking orgasm everytime a stereotype or ignorant cliche is ever said.

D. You're wasting your money on college with the education you're getting.

By the way, Islam is a western religion.

You fucking dumbass.

Praying to the east as in praying to Mecca... I thought you were Mr. Islam, you fucking dumbass.

Kiss my ass, towelhead.

5/23/05- Islamic "protest" in London. Listen to this audio clip (~30 seconds): http://buttthrax.tripod.com/islamic_protest.html



-Note that nothing was done about these terrorists. They were not arrested, nothing. These people are probably connected to the terrorist attacks in London.



[This message has been edited by buttthrax (edited 07-10-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Skankinsasquatch:

Buttthrax you give me a fucking headache.

A. You don't know shit.

B. You don't know shit.

C. You don't listen.

D. You don't read.

E. You have a fucking orgasm everytime a stereotype or ignorant cliche is ever said.

D. You're wasting your money on college with the education you're getting.





Oh oh, is this multiple choice, if so i pick E.

And, i talk about as much merit from a spike lee movie as i do from a quentin tarintino movie, but i like tarntino much better, you know, he's not a self proclaimed 'righteous-nigger'.

quote:

Many of you idiots who know we fight for freedom tend to forget that tolerance is supposed to be an American idea as well.

What tolerance? for the murders? or for the so called civilians with bombs strapped across their chest, i mean fuck, if you want to fight a PC war go ahead, just know there is NO way to win such a battle...

After all, we will show them tolerance, when we are standing over their lice infested, cave dwelling, cold and bloody bodies.

We can and we will break all of those that wish to bring harm to our ideals, those who wish to fight, will die. Be it 1 million or 10 million, when we finish rebuilding every dictated, poverty stricken ,ruined, infestations known as 'middleastern countries' and actually have a 'citizens first' government dropped in place where people can vote and express ideas without being in fear of losing their life over trivial bullshit, then they will have tolerance, not of each other, but of beautiful America.

quote:Originally posted by conlyn:

What tolerance? for the murders? or for the so called civilians with bombs strapped across their chest, i mean fuck, if you want to fight a PC war go ahead, just know there is NO way to win such a battle...

After all, we will show them tolerance, when we are standing over their lice infested, cave dwelling, cold and bloody bodies.

We can and we will break all of those that wish to bring harm to our ideals, those who wish to fight, will die. Be it 1 million or 10 million, when we finish rebuilding every dictated, poverty stricken ,ruined, infestations known as 'middleastern countries' and actually have a 'citizens first' government dropped in place where people can vote and express ideas without being in fear of losing their life over trivial bullshit, then they will have tolerance, not of each other, but of beautiful America.

Edit: It is such a kewl post, that I just had to make it pretty.



[This message has been edited by Maccabee (edited 07-09-2005).]

One of the best posts, ever.

Fucking PWNED!

http://tinypic.com/6z945z.jpg

[This message has been edited by Happy Jimmy (edited 07-09-2005).]

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/index.php

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php



According to these links the Quran has been changed over time.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-koran-manuscripts.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.jodkowski.pl/re/MBright.html

http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm



http://imrepublican.topcities.com/Islam/islam.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina41030.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://atheism.about.com/cs/islamandviolence/

http://www.twin-towers.net/al-farooq_photos.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/index.html

http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/amil30611.htm

http://www.domini.org/openbook/home.htm

http://www.persecution.org

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9583

http://www.danielpipes.org/

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/kafirdomunity/action.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/BTaliban/Bangla_Taliban_Photos.html

http://www.bwoi.cjb.net

http://www.chechentruth.cjb.net/

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/1/index.htm

http://www.rotter.net/israel/

http://www.geocities.com/the_awful_truth_about_islam/index.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/Islam.html

http://www.atcoalition.net/

http://www.taliban-online.info/

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/TalibanOnline1.html

http://www.truthtree.com/Debating/posts/755.html

http://kafirnation.com/portal/index.asp

Conlyn, you say we like you are actually in iraq murdering people and not at your computer typing about people who you demonize pretend you know anything about.

^^^huh?

I'm sorry, but this really does belong in My God...' The people here can follow it there if they like of their own volition.

-=Sephiroth=-

quote:Originally posted by buttthrax:

5/23/05- Islamic "protest" in London. Listen to this audio clip (~30 seconds): http://tinyurl.com/744zb



-Note that nothing was done about these terrorists. They were not arrested, nothing. These people are probably connected to the terrorist attacks in London.

What? The English don't have a right to protest anymore or something? Last I remember, demonstrations of protest are considered a basic right by both the US and the snaggle-tooths. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Are you fucking chimps so blinded by faux patriotism that you can't fucking think? Islam is not an enemy of America...maybe a contender of other religions, but not an enemy of ANY nation. What our enemy is, are those who corrupt the peaceful notions of their religion in favor of obsessing on the passages of wrath-these would be called extremists. Most of these people are not even terrorists, just simply murderers. They don't care about scaring you, they want to kill you. The terrorists (that would be people employing fear as a weapon in the arena of politics) are the leaders of my (the American) government and the extremist LEADERS in the Middle East, exaggerating reality to shock their citizens into drastic actions (stripping of basic freedoms, waging unprovoked war against Bush's personal adversary, securing a strangehold of fear over the Middle East, and the ignoring of the UN in favor of the NWO-mindset in which America is the ONLY country with authority).

Yes, Al Qeada and other extremist factions need to be killed off, that's undoubted in my mind. Yes, Saddam was evil as fuck and needed to be overthrown. Yeah, a bit of fear in the Middle East ain't all that bad. And YES! The UN does fuck up occasionally...but the ends to not justify the means when the means outwiegh the gains by such a margin.

Our "anti-terrorism" effort has cost this country hundreds of billions, many hundreds of US lives, hundreds of our allies lives, and several hundreds of non-combative civilians in the battlegrounds of the Middle East. It has also cost us the friendship of quite a few allies when we said, "Fuck you guys," to the entirety of the UN. It has also cost us Americans some of our personal security (while it has not been documented as an abused system yet, the new beauracracy is sure to be abused just like every other system we have in this country).

Do you know how many American lives could have been saved had our government not employed terrorism to sway the public into such self-destructive rash actions?

200+ billion towards medical care, perhaps?

Hundreds of US soldiers who died in the M.E. would still be alive. Hundreds of our allies would still be alive. Our other alliances would not have been shaken to pieces.

Do you realize how fucking stupid and thoughtless our actions were? What's REAL stupid is that we're not even targeting the people who fucking attacked us! We're in Iraq, fighting a political war instead of a war against terror. IF you want to end terrorism, call for the dismissal of our executive branch and get some fuckers in there who are willing to hunt down the extremists who actively attack us and our allies instead of trying to get revenge against some old fuck who tried to kill 'daddy'.

quote:Originally posted by everybee:

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http:// www.aposta (http: //www.apos tatesofisl am.com/for um/index.p hp) tesofislam .com/forum/index.php

h ttp://www. faithfreed om.org/for um/index.php (http: //www.fait hfreedom.o rg/forum/i ndex.php)



According to these links the Quran has been changed over time.

http: //www.bibl e.ca/islam/islam-myths-koran-manuscripts.htm (http: //www.bibl e.ca/islam /islam-myt hs-koran-m anuscripts .htm)

ht tp://www.a l-islam.or g/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html (http: //www.al-i slam.org/e ncyclopedi a/chapter8 /3.html)

ht tp://www.a nswering-i slam.org/Q uran/Text/ (http: //www.answ ering-isla m.org/Qura n/Text/)

http: //www.jodk owski.pl/r e/MBright. html

http://cr emesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm (http: //cremesti .com/amali d/Islam/Ye meni_Ancie nt_Koranic _Texts.htm )



http ://imrepub lican.topc ities.com/Islam/islam.html (http: //imrepubl ican.topci ties.com/I slam/islam .html)

http://n ews.bbc.co .uk/1/hi/e ngland/2829059.stm (http: //news.bbc .co.uk/1/h i/england/ 2829059.st m)

http://w ww.faithfr eedom.org/ oped/sina41030.htm (http: //www.fait hfreedom.o rg/oped/si na41030.ht m)

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://at heism.abou t.com/cs/i slamandviolence/ (http: //atheism. about.com/ cs/islaman dviolence/ )

http:// www.twin-t (http: //www.twin -towers.ne t/al-faroo q_photos.h tm) owers.net/ al-farooq_photos.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/index.html (http: //www.cnn. com/2003/W ORLD/asiap cf/southea st/08/17/m artyr.cult ure/index. html)

http://mus lim-quotes .netfirms. com/jihad.html (http: //muslim-q uotes.netf irms.com/j ihad.html)

http://w ww.faithfr eedom.org/ oped/amil30611.htm (http: //www.fait hfreedom.o rg/oped/am il30611.ht m)

http: //www.domi ni.org/ope nbook/home .htm

http://www.persecution.org

http://f rontpagema g.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9583 (http: //frontpag emag.com/A rticles/Re adArticle. asp?ID=958 3)

http://www.danielpipes.org/

h ttp://www. angelfire. com/hi5/kafirdomunity/action.htm (http: //www.ange lfire.com/ hi5/kafird omunity/ac tion.htm)

http ://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/BTaliban/Bangla_Taliban_Photos.html (http: //www.geoc ities.com/ khola_mon/ BTaliban/B angla_Tali ban_Photos .html)

http://www.bwoi.cjb.net

http://www.chechentruth.cjb.net/

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http:// www.arabsf (http: //www.arab sforisrael .com/pages /1/index.h tm) orisrael.c om/pages/1/index.htm

http://www.rotter.net/israel/

ht tp://www.g eocities.com/the_awful_truth_about_islam/index.htm (http: //www.geoc ities.com/ the_awful_ truth_abou t_islam/in dex.htm)

http://ww w.geocitie s.com/khol a_mon/Islam.html (http: //www.geoc ities.com/ khola_mon/ Islam.html )

http://www.atcoalition.net/

http://www.taliban-online.info/

http: //www.geoc ities.com/milkmandan2003/TalibanOnline1.html (http: //www.geoc ities.com/ milkmandan 2003/Talib anOnline1. html)

http:/ /www.truth tree.com/D ebating/posts/755.html (http: //www.trut htree.com/ Debating/p osts/755.h tml)

http: //kafirnat ion.com/po rtal/index .asp



A Short list of examples of christian hate, intolerance, and terrorism. http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_viol_index.htm http://atheism.about.com/b/a/078446.htm http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/newsletter/2004/feb20.html http://www.crosscurrents.org/weaver0701.htm http://ctlibrary.com/3995 http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8565.asp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christian_terrorism_in_northeast_india.htm http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/12/10/waagner/index_np.html http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/rudolph/ http://www.stcynic.com/blog/archives/2004/01/defending_chris.php http://www.mindspring.com/~wjager/christian-intolerance.html http://nolongersilent.org/DobsonLetter.html http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/002492.html http://www.cybercollege.com/fog33.htm

Examples of Islamic love, compassion, and tolerance.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter13.htm#ov http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_war.htm http://www.bostonreview.net/BR27.1/islam.html http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/toleran1.html http://www.guidedones.com/metapage/non_muslims/Qislamtol10.htm

The last link is really my favorite and will discredit you in every way I can think of.

Look you fucktard, if you wanna have a stupid fucking pissing contest with links I would gladly oblige. You are notorious for posting a barrage of links and no explanation or context for them. Don't call me a hypocrite; this is just to show how easy it is to play your side of the game.

^ One suggestion: Don't get so worked up.

everybee is a ban-evading troll.

quote:Originally posted by conlyn:

What tolerance? for the murders? or for the so called civilians with bombs strapped across their chest, i mean fuck, if you want to fight a PC war go ahead, just know there is NO way to win such a battle...

After all, we will show them tolerance, when we are standing over their lice infested, cave dwelling, cold and bloody bodies.

We can and we will break all of those that wish to bring harm to our ideals, those who wish to fight, will die. Be it 1 million or 10 million, when we finish rebuilding every dictated, poverty stricken ,ruined, infestations known as 'middleastern countries' and actually have a 'citizens first' government dropped in place where people can vote and express ideas without being in fear of losing their life over trivial bullshit, then they will have tolerance, not of each other, but of beautiful America.



No one ever asked for tolerance for terrorism; just tolerance for Islam.

As for your plans of graniose imperialism...all I have to say is welcome to the mentallity of a terrorist. Welcome to ignorant desperation.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

^ One suggestion: Don't get so worked up.

everybee is a ban-evading troll.



Duly noted. I get passionate about this stuff.

quote:Originally posted by Skankinsasquatch:

The KKK still remains an active group today, and yet Christianity is still viewed as a peaceful religion.

What the holy hell are you blathering on about ?!

What does the KKK have to do with Christianity ? Just because they claim to be Christian doesn't mean they are, and actions speak louder than words.

If you have Christ in your heart, which is the only requirement in order to be considered a Christian in God's eyes, then you will not be able to persecute others in the manner that the KKK does.

The two most important commandments (from which all others stem) are "love your God with all your mind, heart and soul, and love your neighbor as you love yourself."

I do not think that member of the KKK represent anything Christian, and for you to associate the two bears witness to your level of understanding about the faith.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

What the holy hell are you blathering on about ?!

What does the KKK have to do with Christianity ? Just because they claim to be Christian doesn't mean they are, and actions speak louder than words.

If you have Christ in your heart, which is the only requirement in order to be considered a Christian in God's eyes, then you will not be able to persecute others in the manner that the KKK does.

The two most important commandments (from which all others stem) are "love your God with all your mind, heart and soul, and love your neighbor as you love yourself."

I do not think that member of the KKK represent anything Christian, and for you to associate the two bears witness to your level of understanding about the faith.



No you misunderstand; I agree with you. I'm playing devil's advocate with Christianity to make a point about Islam.

quote:Originally posted by Skankinsasquatch:



No one ever asked for tolerance for terrorism; just tolerance for Islam.

As for your plans of graniose imperialism...all I have to say is welcome to the mentallity of a terrorist. Welcome to ignorant desperation.

Seeing as this isn't a war on Islam, it's a war on a terror i see no need to step out of the way to respect or disrespect islam as a religion, seeing as such would be against our constitution in its' own right.

On the other hand, the mentality of terrorists and that of conquering imperialism has no correlation to anything in modern context at all, do you think they wanted to take over the world trade centers? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

The simple point is that anything, good or bad, can be pulled from within a religion, but when a 'sect' of religion is breeding a believe structure of hate and curelty or, is breeding minions of such destruction, I for one, see plenty of reason to wish it demolished.

quote:Originally posted by conlyn:

Seeing as this isn't a war on Islam, it's a war on a terror i see no need to step out of the way to respect or disrespect islam as a religion, seeing as such would be against our constitution in its' own right.

On the other hand, the mentality of terrorists and that of conquering imperialism has no correlation to anything in modern context at all, do you think they wanted to take over the world trade centers? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

The simple point is that anything, good or bad, can be pulled from within a religion, but when a 'sect' of religion is breeding a believe structure of hate and curelty or, is breeding minions of such destruction, I for one, see plenty of reason to wish it demolished.

Should the sect or the religion be terminated? I say the sect and have never said anything different. This whole argument has been about whether or not the religion embeds hate into the sect. I think that's a rediculous statement...for any religion. As for imperialism; I was referring to your "step by step" plan to vaccinate the middle east. Imperialism is not just conquering as you may think; its the impossition of ideas and culture on other regions of the world. That's the issue with democratizing the middle east. That's the issue with the war in Iraq. That's why your plan is an ignorant and impractical.

Ok, Skankin. Fair 'nuf.

So, Skankin...are ALL of these verses interpretted incorrectly, and if not, are they ALL taken out of context ?

They seem pretty damn violent to me.

~ http://www.faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm

You can call it ignorant, but i would hardly call it impractical.

And, of course the induviual sects should be taken out, did my words denounce islam the religion in anyway?! no, i'm open to any one being able to worship as they please. That said, i'll be damned if i'm going to (for the sake of this arugment) let sacrificial murders be it of animals, or people, or harm of any kind to those unwilling to succum to that 'believe structure' be it a cult, a religion, or a fundamentalist group of islamic following, go on in an area that i have any influence over.

And regarding the other topic, fundamentally http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) i mean, would you defend the kkk in the aspect that they were christians, so it was ok for the government not try to bust them on christmas?!

and, sure we impose some ideas in the process of unhinging warlords and fascists, that's a bad thing?

i mean, more modern infrastructure in cities is negative for society? higher quality of not only living, but of speaking, thinking, believing, and commerce.



quote:

This whole argument has been about whether or not the religion embeds hate into the sect.

you're right, you are an idiot for making that statement, congratulations, now go reread anything that i have written and you will see such things as

quote:

We can and we will break all of those that wish to bring harm to our ideals, those who wish to fight, will die.

quote:

Seeing as this isn't a war on Islam, it's a war on a terror i see no need to step out of the way to respect or disrespect islam as a religion, seeing as such would be against our constitution in its' own right.

quote:

The simple point is that anything, good or bad, can be pulled from within a religion, but when a 'sect' of religion is breeding a believe structure of hate and curelty or, is breeding minions of such destruction, I for one, see plenty of reason to wish it demolished.

I see no intolerance of a religion at all, human rights on the other hand is a whole different subject.

Edit: In other news,

I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to GEICO.

[This message has been edited by conlyn (edited 07-10-2005).]

MWUAHAHAHAHAHA

I like your style, Conlyn.

Mean, but funny.

Islam is gay, but then again, so are all the other religions and their followers. It's illogical to let these people live amongst us.

These people don't care who they kill. If they kill Muslim they and their victim are going to heaven. If they kill a marine they go to hell. It's basically a win win situation. You have to admit though that these people are good at what they do. They've totally decentralized their network and it works for them. It's like an army with no commander. I give the United States a failing grade for Iraq.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, Skankin...are ALL of these verses interpretted incorrectly, and if not, are they ALL taken out of context ?

They seem pretty damn violent to me.

~ http://www.faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm



Some of these passages are really nothing to write home about and are contained if many if not all western religions.

"Allah does not guide disbelievers."

"The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened."

Am I supposed to be impressed by this? This is fundamental to christianity in all forms, but especially Jehova's witnesses.

"Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers"

This is a passage I was talking about in another forum, because it is so commonly taken out of context.

The passage before it says this, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors."

If that's not obviously against Muslim extremists I don't know what is.

quote:Originally posted by conlyn:

You can call it ignorant, but i would hardly call it impractical.

And, of course the induviual sects should be taken out, did my words denounce islam the religion in anyway?! no, i'm open to any one being able to worship as they please. That said, i'll be damned if i'm going to (for the sake of this arugment) let sacrificial murders be it of animals, or people, or harm of any kind to those unwilling to succum to that 'believe structure' be it a cult, a religion, or a fundamentalist group of islamic following, go on in an area that i have any influence over.

And regarding the other topic, fundamentally http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) i mean, would you defend the kkk in the aspect that they were christians, so it was ok for the government not try to bust them on christmas?!

and, sure we impose some ideas in the process of unhinging warlords and fascists, that's a bad thing?

i mean, more modern infrastructure in cities is negative for society? higher quality of not only living, but of speaking, thinking, believing, and commerce.



I see no intolerance of a religion at all, human rights on the other hand is a whole different subject.

Edit: In other news,

I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to GEICO.



I made note of what the conversation has been about because you have been digressing away from the topic. This discussion is about whether or not Islam in its fundamental aspects is a violent religion. I'm not here to discuss whether or not Al Quada is wrong for what they do...I'm sure we're all pretty much in unity on that topic.

quote:



i mean, would you defend the kkk in the aspect that they were christians, so it was ok for the government not try to bust them on christmas?!





I'm sorry...I don't understand what that means. I don't defend the KKK...

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

These people don't care who they kill. If they kill Muslim they and their victim are going to heaven. If they kill a marine they go to hell. It's basically a win win situation. You have to admit though that these people are good at what they do. They've totally decentralized their network and it works for them. It's like an army with no commander. I give the United States a failing grade for Iraq.



Islam doesn't reward men who kill innocents; it punishes them.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

What? The English don't have a right to protest anymore or something? Last I remember, demonstrations of protest are considered a basic right by both the US and the snaggle-tooths. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I'm sorry, did the link not work? I realized later that you have to sign in to MSN so fuck that. Listen to it here: http://buttthrax.tripod.com/islamic_protest.html

You don't have the right to scream "kill Tony Blair" and "Kill George Bush" and "Nuke Washington", dumbass. If this group of terrorist Muslims had been arrested maybe the recent attacks could have been prevented.

quote:Originally posted by Skankinsasquatch:



Some of these passages are really nothing to write home about and are contained if many if not all western religions.



http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

you quoted some of the half assed ones, good for you. Now, how about the some quotes of the ones in specific contradiciton to your statements.

quote:

Disbelievers will have their faces blackened on the last day.

Those who disbelieve will be burnt in the Fire.

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.



Disbelievers do not harm Allah, but will have a painful doom.

Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom.



Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars.



Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil.

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.



Against such you are given clear warrant

Those who oppose the messenger and become unbelievers will go to hell.

You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom.

Those who make war(don't follow) with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off,or will be expelled out of the land.



Christians will be burned in the Fire.

Many generations have been destroyed by Allah.



Allah will torment those who deny his revelations.



Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom.

If you refuse to fight, Allah will afflict you with a painful doom

Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you



ok then, i'll admit it, maybe it is islam to blame, after all thier Quran is full of intolerance, violence and curelty.

And, yes, every single passage is linked to the passage in the quran it was taken from. Now please attempt to dispel this, i await it.

[This message has been edited by conlyn (edited 07-10-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by conlyn:

ok then, i'll admit it, maybe it is islam to blame, after all thier Quran is full of intolerance, violence and curelty.

And, yes, every single passage is linked to the passage in the quran it was taken from. Now please attempt to dispel this, i await it.





This is laughable. You're trying to tell me these are exclusive ideals to Islam? All of these can be summarized by one thing: Non-believers do not achieve salvation. This is the same with Christianity and Judaism.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" Hebrews 11:6

Welcome to Western Religion 101.

EDIT: You lack any sort of complex interpretation skills of religious texts. There's an analogy my comparative religions teacher used in the beginning of the class that bears similarities with Plato's cave myth. Basically there are men who have been born trapped into a cave. One man eventually leaves the cave and comes back. How does he describe the exterior of the cave to the men inside the cave? Once you can understand that, you'll understand not to take religious texts so literally.



[This message has been edited by Skankinsasquatch (edited 07-10-2005).]

It seems clear to me that what these verses in the Quran are saying is that believers have to work for their salvation, by smiting the unbelievers.

I agree that the passages about burning refer to after death, but that doesn't erase those that directly command it's believers to hunt down the wicked.

Christianity does not tell it's followers to kill others that don't believe in God.

Please don't compare the two, because they aren't compatible.

quote:



"Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers"

This is a passage I was talking about in another forum, because it is so commonly taken out of context.

The passage before it says this, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors."

If that's not obviously against Muslim extremists I don't know what is.





...did I REALLY need to post that again? C'mon...you're killin me smalls.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/index.php

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php



According to these links the Quran has been changed over time.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-koran-manuscripts.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.jodkowski.pl/re/MBright.html

http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm



http://imrepublican.topcities.com/Islam/islam.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina41030.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://atheism.about.com/cs/islamandviolence/

http://www.twin-towers.net/al-farooq_photos.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/index.html

http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/amil30611.htm

http://www.domini.org/openbook/home.htm

http://www.persecution.org

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9583

http://www.danielpipes.org/

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/kafirdomunity/action.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/BTaliban/Bangla_Taliban_Photos.html

http://www.bwoi.cjb.net

http://www.chechentruth.cjb.net/

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/1/index.htm

http://www.rotter.net/israel/

http://www.geocities.com/the_awful_truth_about_islam/index.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/Islam.html

http://www.atcoalition.net/

http://www.taliban-online.info/

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/TalibanOnline1.html

http://www.truthtree.com/Debating/posts/755.html

http://kafirnation.com/portal/index.asp

quote:Originally posted by Skankinsasquatch:



This is laughable. You're trying to tell me these are exclusive ideals to Islam?



These are the ideals being pressed and put in practice by explicitly by the followers of the Quran, therefor yes, in this argument they are completely exclusive to islam and its' teachings on every level, how else could one see it?



quote:You lack any sort of complex interpretation skills of religious texts.

--------

Once you can understand that, you'll understand not to take religious texts so literally.[/B]



You know, those statements might have some meaning, if you were talking someone who is committing murders and acting on such barbaric literature.

Seeing as i am not taking these texts as a literal means of living, or acting upon them in anyway, your words have no real meaning as to my ability to contemplate or desphier religious text.

sorry, try again.

quote:Originally posted by conlyn:



You know, those statements might have some meaning, if you were talking someone who is committing murders and acting on such barbaric literature.

Seeing as i am not taking these texts as a literal means of living, or acting upon them in anyway, your words have no real meaning as to my ability to contemplate or desphier religious text.

sorry, try again.

Fantastic logic. Because something exists in the Qu'ran it cannot POSSIBLY be a derived or passed idea from/to other religions. The fact remains that in every western religion there is some punishment for non-believers...those bible segments I posted prove that. This ISN'T a violent aspect necesarily because it is not provoking violence; it is stating the punishment by Allah for those who do not follow.

The analogy I presented was merely a suggestion. The idea behind it is that Jesus, Mohammad, and those who wrote the Tenach probably didn't write it in a literal sense...describing an otherworldly or enlightened concept is impossible with our language (just like the man who comes back from the cave to describe the exterior). What happens is we have passages that often use symbolism, alegory, and analogies to _try_ and explain these concepts. Take every passage in every religion with a grain of salt and keep in context that you're reading something that supposedly shows man (who would have been ignorant otherwise) how life began, what truth is, and the expectations to recieve truth.

EDIT:

quote:Originally posted by everybee:

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http:// www.aposta (http: //www.apos tatesofisl am.com/for um/index.p hp) tesofislam .com/forum/index.php

h ttp://www. faithfreed om.org/for um/index.php (http: //www.fait hfreedom.o rg/forum/i ndex.php)



According to these links the Quran has been changed over time.

http: //www.bibl e.ca/islam/islam-myths-koran-manuscripts.htm (http: //www.bibl e.ca/islam /islam-myt hs-koran-m anuscripts .htm)

ht tp://www.a l-islam.or g/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html (http: //www.al-i slam.org/e ncyclopedi a/chapter8 /3.html)

ht tp://www.a nswering-i slam.org/Q uran/Text/ (http: //www.answ ering-isla m.org/Qura n/Text/)

http: //www.jodk owski.pl/r e/MBright. html

http://cr emesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm (http: //cremesti .com/amali d/Islam/Ye meni_Ancie nt_Koranic _Texts.htm )



http ://imrepub lican.topc ities.com/Islam/islam.html (http: //imrepubl ican.topci ties.com/I slam/islam .html)

http://n ews.bbc.co .uk/1/hi/e ngland/2829059.stm (http: //news.bbc .co.uk/1/h i/england/ 2829059.st m)

http://w ww.faithfr eedom.org/ oped/sina41030.htm (http: //www.fait hfreedom.o rg/oped/si na41030.ht m)

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://at heism.abou t.com/cs/i slamandviolence/ (http: //atheism. about.com/ cs/islaman dviolence/ )

http:// www.twin-t (http: //www.twin -towers.ne t/al-faroo q_photos.h tm) owers.net/ al-farooq_photos.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/index.html (http: //www.cnn. com/2003/W ORLD/asiap cf/southea st/08/17/m artyr.cult ure/index. html)

http://mus lim-quotes .netfirms. com/jihad.html (http: //muslim-q uotes.netf irms.com/j ihad.html)

http://w ww.faithfr eedom.org/ oped/amil30611.htm (http: //www.fait hfreedom.o rg/oped/am il30611.ht m)

http: //www.domi ni.org/ope nbook/home .htm

http://www.persecution.org

http://f rontpagema g.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9583 (http: //frontpag emag.com/A rticles/Re adArticle. asp?ID=958 3)

http://www.danielpipes.org/

h ttp://www. angelfire. com/hi5/kafirdomunity/action.htm (http: //www.ange lfire.com/ hi5/kafird omunity/ac tion.htm)

http ://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/BTaliban/Bangla_Taliban_Photos.html (http: //www.geoc ities.com/ khola_mon/ BTaliban/B angla_Tali ban_Photos .html)

http://www.bwoi.cjb.net

http://www.chechentruth.cjb.net/

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http:// www.arabsf (http: //www.arab sforisrael .com/pages /1/index.h tm) orisrael.c om/pages/1/index.htm

http://www.rotter.net/israel/

ht tp://www.g eocities.com/the_awful_truth_about_islam/index.htm (http: //www.geoc ities.com/ the_awful_ truth_abou t_islam/in dex.htm)

http://ww w.geocitie s.com/khol a_mon/Islam.html (http: //www.geoc ities.com/ khola_mon/ Islam.html )

http://www.atcoalition.net/

http://www.taliban-online.info/

http: //www.geoc ities.com/milkmandan2003/TalibanOnline1.html (http: //www.geoc ities.com/ milkmandan 2003/Talib anOnline1. html)

http:/ /www.truth tree.com/D ebating/posts/755.html (http: //www.trut htree.com/ Debating/p osts/755.h tml)

http: //kafirnat ion.com/po rtal/index .asp



Thank you everybee for (once again) being the man who wastes space by hiding behind an insurmountable pile of shit sites that have (by me and others) been proven dubious on all counts. Why don't you post some opinions for a change? This is a discussion after all.

[This message has been edited by Skankinsasquatch (edited 07-11-2005).]

first, delete that quote of everybee, it's bad enough having a half page of links, not a whole one...

And, second, thanks agian for mistaking every part of my argument; then just picking up where you left off.



quote:

The fact remains that in every western religion there is some punishment for non-believers...those bible segments I posted prove that. This ISN'T a violent aspect necesarily because it is not provoking violence; it is stating the punishment by Allah for those who do not follow.



The fact is, the bible doesn't tell you that you are a supreme messenger and that anyone who disagrees with you and your thoughts should deserve to die by your hand.

You cannot possibly denouce that the quran tells it's followers to either convert of kill any one who doesn't follow its' teachings.(weither you take it literally is up to the reader)

quote:

What happens is we have passages that often use symbolism, alegory, and analogies to _try_ and explain these concepts. Take every passage in every religion with a grain of salt and keep in context that you're reading something that supposedly shows man (who would have been ignorant otherwise) how life began, what truth is, and the expectations to recieve truth

again, no bearing on our conversation, as i am not a person taking such writings as a literal means of how to live my life, or take that freedom from others.

Please try to keep this revelent; as you so bitched about when i veered from the subject at hand.

quote:Originally posted by conlyn:

first, delete that quote of everybee, it's bad enough having a half page of links, not a whole one...

And, second, thanks agian for mistaking every part of my argument; then just picking up where you left off.



again, no bearing on our conversation, as i am not a person taking such writings as a literal means of how to live my life, or take that freedom from others.

Please try to keep this revelent; as you so bitched about when i veered from the subject at hand.



I'm going to post this one more time, but I really shouldn't, and you're really pissing me off with this.

quote:



"Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers"

This is a passage I was talking about in another forum, because it is so commonly taken out of context.

The passage before it says this, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors."

If that's not obviously against Muslim extremists I don't know what is.





The verses call for fighting nonbelievers in self-defense. Get it right, jackass. This are no verses that call for the unprovoked killing of non-believers. None. This wouldn't be so frustrating to me if you would just read what's been said so we don't have to beat a dead horse. As far as the analogy, I was providing subtext for passages you thought to be violent. The relevence to the analogy is that you can't take these passages literally. Let's summarize: The passage that claims, "Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them." is taken out of context as the previous passage denounces aggressors. There is yet another chapter in the Qu'ran that says, "Whoever oppresses any Dhimmi , I shall be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgment." A Dhimmi is a non-believer subject to Islamic law. The dramatic language used in some of these passages can be attributed to how old they are (around 600 A.D. I believe is the date). Finally, irregardless of all of the facts that have been so graciously skewed by you (by the way THANK YOU again for making me repeat myself countless times), this is still religion. Its a topic that is up for multiple interpretations because of the allegorical, metaphorical, and symbolic nature of religious texts. Do Not Take Everything Explicitly.



[This message has been edited by Skankinsasquatch (edited 07-11-2005).]

Allah hates all sinners, effectively stating that he hates all humans. The God of the bible realizes that we are all sinners, but loves us anyway.

A lot of people are hypocrates, but while we're on the subject of muslims: Why do muslims freak out if you sit the quran on the ground or in a toilet? Yet if you try to bring the Bible into a muslim nation they will shred it on the spot at the airport or arrest you? Also why do muslims whine and cry about naked pictures taken at Abu Ghraib prison, but it's o.k. to behead our people with a hand saw?

quote:Originally posted by KISE:

Allah hates all sinners, effectively stating that he hates all humans. The God of the bible realizes that we are all sinners, but loves us anyway.

And yet we have Calvinists. Read the sermon about the spider being dangled over the fire and then tell me if all Christians believe that.

quote:



A lot of people are hypocrates, but while we're on the subject of muslims: Why do muslims freak out if you sit the quran on the ground or in a toilet? Yet if you try to bring the Bible into a muslim nation they will shred it on the spot at the airport or arrest you? Also why do muslims whine and cry about naked pictures taken at Abu Ghraib prison, but it's o.k. to behead our people with a hand saw?





You're talking about laws of nations, not laws of Muslims.

[This message has been edited by Skankinsasquatch (edited 07-11-2005).]

Allah loveth not anyone. The word love is never mentioned in the q'uran.

the only reason you feel the need to repeat yourself is because you have one passage from the quran that goes in context of what you say, unlike that whole slew of ones that don't.

Take a gander at the whole list of passages, not all have the same seemingly dosile tone as the one you have written over and over.

would you like me to rewrite that whole list of those passages for you? cause that is all but going to further our argument.

quote:

You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom.

please, entertain me and explain this passage as a 'non-provoked' killing, having any humans rights http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

And as far as your analogy, like i said so many many times before.

Since i am not the one acting out of a book your analogy holds less then no meaning to me. Now perhaps you'd like to go explain it to bin laden and maybe, just maybe he'll stop killing any person opposed to his religion or believe structure.

quote:

this is still religion. Its a topic that is up for multiple interpretations because of the allegorical, metaphorical, and symbolic nature of religious texts.

Did you just prove my argument against acting out in the name of some barbaric religious writings? me thinks you did, me thinks you did real well. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

[This message has been edited by conlyn (edited 07-11-2005).]

I don't care about Calvanists, I care about the Bible in it's Hebrew and Greek form.

Love is the universal law above all others.

quote:Originally posted by conlyn:

the only reason you feel the need to repeat yourself is because you have one passage from the quran that goes in context of what you say, unlike that whole slew of ones that don't.

Take a gander at the whole list of passages, not all have the same seemingly dosile tone as the one you have written over and over.

would you like me to rewrite that whole list of those passages for you? cause that is all but going to further our argument.

Did you just prove my argument against acting out in the name of some barbaric religious writings? me thinks you did, me thinks you did real well. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)





quote:



ok then, i'll admit it, maybe it is islam to blame after all thier Quran is full of intolerance, violence and curelty.





You said this (believe it or not). Therefore, you believe Islam is to blame for violence. You believe it is a fundamentally violent religion. Therefore in your eyes, terrorism is not an extreme interpretation of the religion...the religion itself causes terrorism. The purpose for the analogy is to show you that in actuality, the texts aren't violent. They're symbolic. I have no vested care in what you do with the words of the Qu'ran. What I care about is your misinterpretation. This is why I gave you the analogy. This is why your actions under the Qu'ran mean absolutely nothing to me. Pull your head out of your ass.

"You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom."

This quote...God I've already covered this too. This and all those other repetitious quotes belong under a big category that we're gonna call "non-believers go to hell". As I've stated, all three western religions believe this. All the rest of those quotes go in about the same place (at least of the ones I remember).

If there's still something you're confused about, let me sort it out for you.

[This message has been edited by Skankinsasquatch (edited 07-11-2005).]

Hell is Earth, Heaven is the sky. We're already in Hell. When Messiah returns, we'll most likely stay right here and clean this mess up rather than going to the sky.(What could be be worse than here? We have torture, rape, mass murder, hate, pollution, lies, it gets too hot, it gets too cold, demons live here, with us.)

quote:Originally posted by KISE:

Christians are wak too. The majority of them make me embarrassed to be a believer.

From one Christian to another, the word is spelled "whack".

Should I be embarassed to be a fellow human being now ?

Be nice. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Posted by conlyn:

Since i am not the one acting out of a book your analogy holds less then no meaning to me. Now perhaps you'd like to go explain it to bin laden and maybe, just maybe he'll stop killing any person opposed to his religion or believe structure.

While I realise you were being facetious, I want to point out something that is probably very obvious to you...

Some people need no justification for their hatred. Too often, they use religion as a shield to protect their murderous beliefs, but they would believe the same regardless of their religious affiliation.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the religion supports said person's actions, either.

I doubt Bin Laden would give up killing anyone that doesn't crank his lever, Allah, or no.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

From one Christian to another, the word is spelled "whack".

Should I be embarassed to be a fellow human being now ?

Be nice. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



I spell it w-a-k-, always have, always will, it's hip-hop slang from the 80's, not the dictionary. And I should have said MOST christians are "wak", definitely not all. Most christians believe that Sunday, the day of the sun(pagan day of worship) is the Sabbath. Saturday is the seventh day, Sabato in spanish. It's a ten commandment to keep this day holy. Also Easter and Christmas are Pagan, and most christians believe these are the holiest of days. Why would a christian lie to his children about magic bunnies and flying fat men? Jesus never said he wanted a celebration on his birthday, especially the materialistic, greedy holiday that it is. Satan's world is full of lies, it's up to us to "prove all things" and find the truth.

Exo 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance FOREVER.

Most christians don't keep the Passover either. This is a holiday that the Bible actually tells you to keep.

Most christians also never take the time to look into the Hebrew and Greek Bibles. This leads to a lot of misinterpretations. One small example is the word prudent as listed in Proverbs over and over again. In the KJV, all you see is the same word prudent, in the hebrew you see it sometimes in the negative form, sometimes positive. This makes a huge difference in determining which behaviours you want to follow. Armed with only the KJV(king james version) you wouldn't know.

http://www.e-sword.net/downloads.html

this is a free electronic bible. If you put the mouse pointer on a word it gives you the Hebrew or Greek definitions.

Where's all the muslims at. There's 1 billion of you, come represent.

quote:Originally posted by KISE:



I spell it w-a-k-, always have, always will, it's hip-hop slang from the 80's, not the dictionary. And I should have said MOST christians are "wak", definitely not all. Most christians believe that Sunday, the day of the sun(pagan day of worship) is the Sabbath. Saturday is the seventh day, Sabato in spanish. It's a ten commandment to keep this day holy. Also Easter and Christmas are Pagan, and most christians believe these are the holiest of days. Why would a christian lie to his children about magic bunnies and flying fat men? Jesus never said he wanted a celebration on his birthday, especially the materialistic, greedy holiday that it is. Satan's world is full of lies, it's up to us to "prove all things" and find the truth.

I wasn't saying I didn't understand the attempt you made at "coolness" by spelling it wrong. I was point out that you shouldn't be judging others.

I have always said that Christians are the biggest detriment to Christianity, which is basically what YOU are saying, but do you see the difference in the way I word it, and the way YOU word it ?

Pray for your brother's, and don't make fun of them. If they had been led by their Pastor's properly, they wouldn't be ignorant sheep.

I don't think Christians in general think Christmas and Easter are the holiest of days. Not only is that remark dramatic, but it is largely untrue. I think Christians know very well what they are about (not eggs and presents), but they celebrate it in their own way. Personally, I celebrate them, but we inundate the activities with Biblical foundations.

For instance, this Easter I printed a very simple version of Christ's life off the computer. I cut the story up into 2-3 sentences a piece, and rolled them up into scrolls. I put these scrolls inside the plastic eggs, and whenever my daughter would find one, we would open it and put it in order. This way, she read the story of Jesus, and understood what Easter is supposed to be about.

I don't mean to say that all Christians do this, but I don't think MOST Christians are dumb enough to think Jesus has anything to do with the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus.

You can be the salt of the earth without slashing the throats of your brethren.

Tell the truth about what Christianity is, and then pray in private for your lost brother's.

THAT'S what Christ's love is all about.

quote:Originally posted by KISE:

Most christians also never take the time to look into the Hebrew and Greek Bibles. This leads to a lot of misinterpretations. One small example is the word prudent as listed in Proverbs over and over again. In the KJV, all you see is the same word prudent, in the hebrew you see it sometimes in the negative form, sometimes positive. This makes a huge difference in determining which behaviours you want to follow. Armed with only the KJV(king james version) you wouldn't know.

Of course, and I agree.

I am currently going through the Complete Jewish Bible, and will begin studying Greek and Hebrew at Multnomah Bible College in Portland, OR next year.

But not all people have the money to do this, and it is more the responsibility of the shephard's than it is the flocks.

As I said, the pastor's are failing us...and it is sad.

Calvary Chapels (which I attend) get into the whole Greek/Hebrew translation thing. I love it, and am glad for it.

You're right...KJV doesn't do the word of God justice.

quote:Originally posted by KISE:

Where's all the muslims at. There's 1 billion of you, come represent.

HAHAHAHAHA

They don't come 'round here !

It would be nice, though.

quote:Originally posted by KISE:



Most christians believe that Sunday, the day of the sun(pagan day of worship) is the Sabbath. Saturday is the seventh day, Sabato in spanish. It's a ten commandment to keep this day holy.

Mark 2.23-28, Matt. 12.1-8, Luke 6.1-5

Ahhaha, there Jesus goes, getting his words all muddled up again.

BTW, it's the tenth commandment

quote:Originally posted by KISE:

Most christians don't keep the Passover either. This is a holiday that the Bible actually tells you to keep.

The Bible tells Jews to keep this day holy.

Christians aren't Jews, ergo no dinner party.

quote:Originally posted by KISE:

If it helps your daughter learn about Christ, that's wonderful, but maybe you ought to change the name. Easter is connected to Aster a pagan God. In fact, that white, long haired image of Jesus hanging in a lot of churches is really a portrait of Aster. Jesus was probably tan with short curly hair and a big nose, he's jewish. Believe it or not, there is people in the world that would paint a picture of a pagan God and call it Jesus just to have you worshipping the wrong man. You should read "Demons in the Church" by Ellis Skolfield. When I say "christians are wak" I don't mean anything hateful or judgemental by it. It's just the way I talk(a little harsh sounding at times I admit), the era/area I'm from. I don't care about being cool, I'm a big, fat, bald, white boy.

Hon, you need to learn a bit more about me before you try to school me. I am the CHRISTIAN moderator on this forum for a reason. (no, I don't know everything, but what you are saying here is pretty elementary stuff, and if you had been here for the past year you would know that this convo doesn't have anything to do with me.)

I am well aware of what Jesus looked like for his time, and it wasn't the pasty white guy that would break a bone if someone sneezed on him.

I don't think the name of the day really matters. The essence of the celebration is what matters. She knows it's about Jesus, and I feel that is what is important.

*LMAO* @ last comment.

Well, thanks for your honesty. *grin*

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:

The Bible tells Jews to keep this day holy.

Christians aren't Jews, ergo no dinner party.



Some christians are Jews.

I am Muslim.

Anyone who thinks Muslims are bad people should have there day ruined methodically.

Anyone who thinks Muslims are people-to/cool should win the lottery.

Assholes who think muslims do bad stuff should look at what christians have done.

The bible is not the place to look.

The bible is full of shit like in Mark something Jesus denied sanitation and critisized the Jewish priests for washing their hands before meals.

Skankinsasquatch is cool and should win the lottery.

People who don't agree with him should take lessons from redgecko5 at his special talen

[This message has been edited by midgetbasketball (edited 07-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by midgetbasketball:

I am Muslim.

Anyone who thinks Muslims are bad people should have there day ruined methodically.

Anyone who thinks Muslims are people-to/cool should win the lottery.

Assholes who think muslims do bad stuff should look at what christians have done.

The bible is not the place to look.

The bible is full of shit like in Mark something Jesus denied sanitation and critisized the Jewish priests for washing their hands before meals.

Skankinsasquatch is cool and should win the lottery.

People who don't agree with him should take lessons from redgecko5 at his special talen



That's the thing about Muslims like you, you want people's days ruined. Why don't you just pray that Allah bring them the truth?

[This message has been edited by KISE (edited 07-12-2005).]

this is my favorite muslim:

http://www.shoebat.com/

quote:Originally posted by KISE:

Some christians are Jews.

By that logic if I converted to Buddhism I would still be required to believe that Jesus was the son of God.

I am talking about faith, not race.

quote:Originally posted by midgetbasketball:



The bible is full of shit like in Mark something Jesus denied sanitation and critisized the Jewish priests for washing their hands before meals.



Does this "shit" from the Bible come with a quote?

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:

Does this "shit" from the Bible come with a quote?

The bible's talking about race. And anyway, all 12 tribes of israel were in the exodus, so they should all keep passover.

quote:Originally posted by KISE:



The bible's talking about race. And anyway, all 12 tribes of israel were in the exodus, so they should all keep passover.

And thus you admit that even if you are correct, the passover only applies to a microscopic percentage of christianity.

As far as I am concerned faith supercedes race, a christian is a christian wether they are chinese, english, or jewish.

By your reasoning a Jew is still a Jew even if he converts to Islam!

[This message has been edited by Slave of the Beast (edited 07-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:

And thus you admit that the passover only applies to a microscopic percentage of christianity. (Though I still believe faith supercedes race, but hey, whatever.)

Thankyou for arguing yourself out of existence.



The 12 tribes are actually the majority. If you would like to read about it, start with The Origins and Empire of Ancient Israel by Steven M. Collins. And, your a real dick, for no reason.



[This message has been edited by KISE (edited 07-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by KISE:

quote:

Mark 2.23-28, Matt. 12.1-8, Luke 6.1-5

Ahhaha, there Jesus goes, getting his words all muddled up again.

BTW, it's the tenth commandment

I'm not Jesus, dick.

What you said about the sabbath contradicts him. The direct reference to him was sarcasm, the lowest form of humour, which you seem to have trouble grasping.



quote:Originally posted by KISE:



The 12 tribes are actually the majority. If you would like to read about it, start with The Origins and Empire of Ancient Israel by Steven M. Collins. And, your a real dick, for no reason.



You mean to say that most of modern Christians, european, african and asian are descended from the 12 tribes of Israel and therefore have to adhere to the same laws?

Your an idiot.



[This message has been edited by Slave of the Beast (edited 07-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:

You mean to say that most of modern Christians, european, african and asian are descended from the 12 tribes of Israel and therefore have to adhere to the same laws?

Your an idiot.





You don't study that subject, so you wouldn't know. There's even a rastafarian sect called the 12 tribes of israel. And I don't care for your weak sarcasm, especially when it includes the word Jesus.

And where did middle easterners come from? Ishmael, son of Abraham, making them part Jewish also.

Where do Ethiopians come from? Soloman and Sheba. Making them part Jewish.

quote:Originally posted by KISE:

Where do Ethiopians come from? Soloman and Sheba. Making them part Jewish.

Show me the Family tree.

quote:Originally posted by KISE:

And where did middle easterners come from? Ishmael, son of Abraham, making them part Jewish also.

Oh yes, I forgot all about the hundreds of millions of Christians living in the Middle East.

North America, South America, the rest of African continent,North and Western europe, Asia, these places don't even exist in the old Testament so how they fuck could the Jews have inseminated the human race to such an extent that most of the billion christian have jewish heritage!?

I repeat... You are an idiot.



[This message has been edited by Slave of the Beast (edited 07-12-2005).]

One last thing, Brazil is a Hebrew word. It means iron, because that's where they went to get their iron in ancient times. And don't question ME anymore, educate YOURSELF. You have the internet, you can go to the library.



[This message has been edited by KISE (edited 07-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by KISE:

One last thing, Brazil is a Hebrew word. It means iron, because that's where they went to get their iron in ancient times. And don't question ME anymore, educate YOURSELF. You have the internet, you can go to the library.



And I suppose this means that all Brazillians are part Jewish...

It aslo happens to be a Sumerian word, which is unrelated linguistically to Hebrew. Please don't lecture me about ancient languages when you have trouble with basic english grammar.

Admit that you simply cannot prove that the vast majority of Christians have a jewish racial heritage. Unless you can do a lot better than unverifiable Biblical references to 'the middle east' (vague even if true) and ethiopia.

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:

And I suppose this means that all Brazillians are part Jewish...

It aslo happens to be a Sumerian word, which is unrelated linguistically to Hebrew. Please don't lecture me about ancient languages when you have trouble with basic english grammar.

Admit that you simply cannot prove that the vast majority of Christians have a jewish racial heritage. Unless you can do a lot better than unverifiable Biblical references to 'the middle east' (vague even if true) and ethiopia.



Jews are only 1 tribe of 12(Judah). Who are the other 11? That's the point you are missing. 12 tribes of Israel. 12. Not one, not two, twelve! Judah is one of them. Do you get it now?

[This message has been edited by KISE (edited 07-12-2005).]

1) By proof, I mean a link to scientific research showing that most of the worlds current Christian population have a genetic lineage connecting them to 1 of the Twleve Tribes of Israel.

2) 'aslo' is a typo, not a piece of grammatical mincemeat. Stop whining.

3)Sumerian is linguistically unrelated to Hebrew, period. Your claim therefore that the name 'Brazil' is Hebrew is false.

4)The reason you are fat, is probably because you spend so much time post whoring.

5)Goodbye!