this sims to be be pivoting point of most of the logic based pro/anti-god arguments i've seen over here so i thought its worth coming to a collective conclusion on.

my standpoint is as follows:

2 minutes from now im going to scratch my head. god knows that im thinking this.

******

2 minutes have now gone and i have scratched my head.

god knew this.

BUT

this does not change the fact that the decision to scratch my head was mine and mine alone. god did not make me do this. i did it on my own initiative.

so in the case of this example, both can co exist.

any thoughts/flames/counter arguments.

the problem with all the omnipotence threads recently is that they try and define god and his power in human terms. something which by definition is impossible to do.

god is not omnipotent, that's just a human decription which attempts and fails to describe and encompass him.

there is no possible answer to the question how free will and his omnipotence go together.

basically its a waste of time to try.

i might very well be worth trying to sort out some sort of solution or at least come to some collective conclusion seeing as so many "god does/doesnot exist" arguments hinge upon it.

given that most people believe in a God who made man in his own image, it wont hurt to find an answer to the free will thing in human terms. so back ti the topic... anyone see any flaws with my original argument?

Not this discussion again...

Yes they co-exist. That is what is so special about mankind. Unlike other animals who are bound by their instincts, we have the option to make our own free paths, and if we help build God's creation, we go to heaven. If we are malicious and we do whatever we want, we go to hell. This is ofcouse a very simplified explanation, since I don't wanna type all arguments again, just browse for the other threads.

This was all from a deists point of view...

Don't materialize your cloaked hovercraft to see what it looks like or you'll tear your eyes out. But don't worry about the millions of cloaked ships coming to assimilate your base because they won't materialize you if you're not omniscient.

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

this sims to be be pivoting point of most of the logic based pro/anti-god arguments i've seen over here so i thought its worth coming to a collective conclusion on.

my standpoint is as follows:

2 minutes from now im going to scratch my head. god knows that im thinking this.

******

2 minutes have now gone and i have scratched my head.

god knew this.

BUT

this does not change the fact that the decision to scratch my head was mine and mine alone. god did not make me do this. i did it on my own initiative.

so in the case of this example, both can co exist.

any thoughts/flames/counter arguments.

Freewill, real freewill, suggests that in all cases one can make a decision between all present options. It tells that in 20 seconds, I can scratch my head, scratch my arm, my leg or my feet. I can decide whichever option to take, no matter what.

I don't believe that freewill exists -- I understand that all decisions are completely influenced by stationary, past events. Still, monotheists can't embrace both of them at the same time.

Why? Because for God to know everything, he must know what I will do before I do it. This implies that I do not have a choice -- there is a course of action I am guaranteed to take -- and God knows this. If I cannot choose, I do not have freewill.

[This message has been edited by Antiquarian (edited 07-11-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

the problem with all the omnipotence threads recently is that they try and define god and his power in human terms. something which by definition is impossible to do.

god is not omnipotent, that's just a human decription which attempts and fails to describe and encompass him.

there is no possible answer to the question how free will and his omnipotence go together.

basically its a waste of time to try.

As a rational human, I find it hilarious that other rational humans believe in something completely devoid of reason.

quote:Originally posted by Antiquarian:

As a rational human, I find it hilarious that other rational humans believe in something completely devoid of reason.



as an extremely fucked up human being i find it hilarious that some people consider themselves rational.

I have said this many times. God knows what we are going to do. It doesnt matter if we know. Take Schrodingers cat for example.

I base my argument that man is not omniscient, and therefore has free will.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



as an extremely fucked up human being i find it hilarious that some people consider themselves rational.

I am capable of rational thought, at least. Are you suggesting otherwise?

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

I have said this many times. God knows what we are going to do. It doesnt matter if we know. Take Schrodingers cat for example.

I base my argument that man is not omniscient, and therefore has free will.

What the fuck? If God knows what we are going to do, we are going to do only one thing. Otherwise, God doesn't know -- he merely knows the possible options. He has to know EXACTLY what we will do. If he knows EXACTLY what we will do, we don't have freewill. Duh.

quote:I base my argument that man is not omniscient, and therefore has free will.

Well, would it be reasonable to say that God is omniscient, and therefore does not have freewill?

Would it be reasonable still to say that an omnipotent being would have freewill and therefore God's omniscience and omnipotence are in contradiction?

I know i've argued this dead before, but i still believe it has not really been refuted yet.

quote:Originally posted by Dre Crabbe:

Not this discussion again...

Yes they co-exist. That is what is so special about mankind. Unlike other animals who are bound by their instincts, we have the option to make our own free paths, and if we help build God's creation, we go to heaven. If we are malicious and we do whatever we want, we go to hell. This is ofcouse a very simplified explanation, since I don't wanna type all arguments again, just browse for the other threads.

This was all from a deists point of view...

Actually i n the most recent TIME magazine it stated that it has been proven that dogs dolphins, and monkeys have codes of ethics.

quote:Originally posted by Antiquarian:

What the fuck? If God knows what we are going to do, we are going to do only one thing. Otherwise, God doesn't know -- he merely knows the possible options. He has to know EXACTLY what we will do. If he knows EXACTLY what we will do, we don't have freewill. Duh.

You can still have free will under those circumstances.

No, you can't.

<sigh>.....

God can't either.

quote:Originally posted by your_daemon:

Actually i n the most recent TIME magazine it stated that it has been proven that dogs dolphins, and monkeys have codes of ethics.

B.S.

Post a link.

I can't speak about monkeys or dolphins but I've had tons of dogs. I would really like to see what was observed as ethics or how they tested this. i'll bet that these are the same sorta people that say that animals dont suffer.... step on a cat's tail once and you'll know that is wrong.

quote:Originally posted by Antiquarian:

What the fuck? If God knows what we are going to do, we are going to do only one thing. Otherwise, God doesn't know -- he merely knows the possible options. He has to know EXACTLY what we will do. If he knows EXACTLY what we will do, we don't have freewill. Duh.



God's nature is Omnipotent and Omniscient (among others). With just those two qualities alone God could allow us free will, while still knowing what we will do.

quote:God's nature is Omnipotent and Omniscient (among others). With just those two qualities alone God could allow us free will, while still knowing what we will do

Could God have freewill?

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Could God have freewill?

Yes!

NO- my theory is that god doesnt know exactly what you are going to choose, he just knows the outcome of all events. He knows all the roads that you COULD choose from and what will happen on those roads. There is freewill, there must be becuase no one can control me, bitches.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Could God have freewill?



i can only guess.

i would have to say yes, but not in terms we could understand. (because of His omnipotence)

From our level of understanding, no, because God describes Himself as Everlasting, Unchanging, Eternal.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



God's nature is Omnipotent and Omniscient (among others). With just those two qualities alone God could allow us free will, while still knowing what we will do.

If you are asserting that God is illogical and cannot be subject to reason, fine. In that case, you're right. By who would believe in something completely devoid of reason?

If God is subject to logic, or a product of the natural world, he cannot give us freewill.

quote:Originally posted by Antiquarian:

If you are asserting that God is illogical and cannot be subject to reason, fine. In that case, you're right. By who would believe in something completely devoid of reason?

If God is subject to logic, or a product of the natural world, he cannot give us freewill.

God says that His ways our higher than our ways; and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

That means, yes, God is 'illogical', but not less than logical... above and beyond what we understand.

quote:Originally posted by Antiquarian:

What the fuck? If God knows what we are going to do, we are going to do only one thing. Otherwise, God doesn't know -- he merely knows the possible options. He has to know EXACTLY what we will do. If he knows EXACTLY what we will do, we don't have freewill. Duh.

A lot of people (including rust, i noticed some time ago) refuse to go one step further than this point you've made.

God knows exactly what you're going to do, and you will do that one thing. But that one thing is still your choice. its just that he knows it. Lets say you approach an intersection on a road where you can go straight left or right. Your initial intention was to go straight, but tha road is blocked off because of a bus crash. you can now go left or right. God knows which choice you're going to make (what ever it is). But what ever you do is still your choice. He did not influence it, it happened by your will. In this scenario, there is one possible out come. The outcome you chose. You used your free will to choose to go left or right. And whats more, God knew which choice you were going to make. So both can exist.

question concerning gods plan and free will?



So evidently God has a master plan like I keep hearing about, but God has gave man free will.

God knows all and knows what we are going to to and fits this into his big plan.

So if he planned it all does that mean that you have no free will cause it was already planned out for you?

Please help?????

i made my own thread and val locked it and im still not sure why but its here now so help?

quote:Originally posted by rodrat16:



i made my own thread and val locked it and im still not sure why but its here now so help?

I locked it because it was a duplicate thread.

You're asking about freewill and omniscience, well that's what this thread is about.

Please take time to read the thread.

-Val

I don't know if God knows exactly what I'm going to do before I do it. He probibly does.

However, I dont know about your parents, but my father here on earth also has an uncanny ability to predict my actions. He has an incredible ability to figure out what my next move will be in life. He prediced when I would start drinking, he predicted when I'd stop going to church, and he prediced when I'd get baptised, simply because I spend a fair ammount of time with him and because he knows me very well.

To envision this argument, I pretend like my Dad is watching over my shoulder all day. If he were a slight bit more intuitive, he could tell exactly what part of my body I would scratch next. (a little far fetched, but I'm going to run with it) Now would his knowledge of my next move really make it any less my next move? No. Dad wouldn't be stepping in and moving my arm, I would be.

Just in this way our father in heaven works. He may be dissapointed when I do something bad, he may or may not know that I'm going to do it, but he has given me my free agency and therefore I have the ability to use it.

We (mormons) believe that this world is a test. Most christians if they think about it believe the same thing. God puts us in this situation and wants us to react in a christ-like manner. If we don't he may place us away from him in the end, but if we do he will reward us with all that he can. That is what I believe.

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

A lot of people (including rust, i noticed some time ago) refuse to go one step further than this point you've made.

God knows exactly what you're going to do, and you will do that one thing. But that one thing is still your choice. its just that he knows it. Lets say you approach an intersection on a road where you can go straight left or right. Your initial intention was to go straight, but tha road is blocked off because of a bus crash. you can now go left or right. God knows which choice you're going to make (what ever it is). But what ever you do is still your choice. He did not influence it, it happened by your will. In this scenario, there is one possible out come. The outcome you chose. You used your free will to choose to go left or right. And whats more, God knew which choice you were going to make. So both can exist.



Freewill doesn't exist. Period.

Matrix Reloaded got this right.



The Oracle: Candy?

Neo: Do you already know if I'm going to take it?

The Oracle: Wouldn't be much of an Oracle if I didn't.

Neo: But if you already know, how can I make a choice?

The Oracle: Because you didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand *why* you made it. I thought you'd have figured that out by now.

If Oracle/God knows the future, that means there is only one path. As God is omnipotent, the creator of all things, he has created the path for you to take.

Merovingian: Choice is an illusion created between those with power and those without.

From what I understand, the concept of God giving us free will, is his attempt to trick us into believing that we have a choice.

quote:Originally posted by Antiquarian:

What the fuck? If God knows what we are going to do, we are going to do only one thing. Otherwise, God doesn't know -- he merely knows the possible options. He has to know EXACTLY what we will do. If he knows EXACTLY what we will do, we don't have freewill. Duh.

EXACTLY. God doesn't know what's going to happen for sure. God only knows the various possiblities from the available choices we have.

Any theist will never believe that freewill is an illusion because it basically refutes what they have dedicated their life to.

Once God is removed from the equation we still really don't have freewill due to determinism.

You can't prove either of those claims.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Any theist will never believe that freewill is an illusion because it basically refutes what they have dedicated their life to.

Once God is removed from the equation we still really don't have freewill due to determinism.

Determinism? Causality?

quote:Originally posted by Antiquarian:

If God is subject to logic, or a product of the natural world, he cannot give us freewill.

(in jamaican accent)

HE CAN MUN HE CAN!!! DAT'S WHAAT DIS TREAD IS ALL ARBOUT MUN!!

(end jamaincan accent)

read the first post!!

Sarith, nothing in in the first post proves how they can co-exist.

You just explained how it feels like you have free will. Nobody is debating how it feels. We're debating whether in fact you have free will or not.

An example, one which regulars here have probably heard before from me, is Oedipus Rex:

In Oedipus Rex, Oedipus is destined to fulfill the prophecy given to him by the oracle (i.e. to kill his father an marry his mother). He, believing he had free will, flees in order to prove the prophecy wrong; but he could not flee from his predetermined destiny, as such, even though it seems to him that he had free will at that time, even if he believed he himself was choosing to flee and not the Greek gods, the fact remains that he did not have free will: he was predestined to fulfill the prophecy.

So when you say "this does not change the fact that the decision to scratch my head was mine and mine alone. god did not make me do this. i did it on my own initiative" you're just saying how it feels. How it feels that the initiative came from yourself. That in no way refutes that it could have still been predetermined, and thus that you had no free will.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Sarith, nothing in in the first post proves how they can co-exist.

You just explained how it feels like you have free will. Nobody is debating how it feels. We're debating whether in fact you have free will or not.

An example, one which regulars here have probably heard before from me, is Oedipus Rex:

In Oedipus Rex, Oedipus is destined to fulfill the prophecy given to him by the oracle (i.e. to kill his father an marry his mother). He, believing he had free will, flees in order to prove the prophecy wrong; but he could not flee from his predetermined destiny, as such, even though it seems to him that he had free will at that time, even if he believed he himself was choosing to flee and not the Greek gods, the fact remains that he did not have free will: he was predestined to fulfill the prophecy.

So when you say "this does not change the fact that the decision to scratch my head was mine and mine alone. god did not make me do this. i did it on my own initiative" you're just saying how it feels. How it feels that the initiative came from yourself. That in no way refutes that it could have still been predetermined, and thus that you had no free will.





well if you wanted to you could argue that everything is predetermined and every thought that your put into a choice is predetermined too but the truth of that is that you'll never know.

What im trying to say, just like what you're trying to say, cannot be proven but i'd just like to confirm that it is a possibility which does not conflict with omniscience--leaving predestination out of it.

I'm just about to click my fingers and there're many ways you can describe this.

1. it was predetermined tat i would choose to click my fingers so i chose to click my fingers.

What you say is true, if this be so then it is actually impossible for me to not click my fingers. But that is predestination.

2. My fingers were itchy, i could crack my knuckles or click my fingers so i clicked my fingers. i chose to do this and someone "all knowing" knew i would do this. But if i wanted to i could crack my knuckles instead. Then the all knowing person would know that. You see you could take that stance that what the allknowing person knows changes according to what your choice is, as apposed to taking the stance that your choice changes according to what the all knowing person knows. they are both just as likely and both just as abstract.

agree? disagree?

Free will can exist. Just because someone knows your going to make a certain choice, doesn't mean they made the choice for you, you did. God doesn't make you do anything, you make all the decisions, he just knows which choices you'll make.

God however has no free will, there is only one perfect path to everything.

I don't think god exists really, God is merely a complex set of mathematical rules that determine probability, like a very large equation where every action or movement of energy is calculated into it.

It's like snowflakes, their aren't a infinite number of crystaline patterns that can be made, so in theory, the exact same snowflake will fall again, even though we'd never be able to locate two exact pairs.

Everything that happens in this world is just a reaction, and nothing more. If I throw my gum on the sidewalk and you by chance stepped on it, it wasn't the work of god, you just stepped on my gum because I threw it on the ground. Nothing is gods will, we merely just have rules of what can and can't be done. We have these rules because without them it would create a universal anomoly and the equation would be flawed.

My reason to question god is this. We say god created the universe because it couldn't possibly exist without it being someones will. Yet we except gods existence without explaination. Where did god come from? If he has just always existed, why couldn't the universe have? Don't you guys wonder if you only believe this crap because it's what you want to here?

The whole idea of good and evil is a flawed concept. Who is shallow minded enough to believe that their is only two judgments. Mercy killings are pretty good example of cloudiness. To me evil isn't set in stone, it's negative acts against society. These acts are the only things standing in the way or world peace. Good, is actions that bring people closer. People who do good things, have many friends, loving family, and an overall good life, which is heaven. Those who are evil, have poor relationships, and often find themselves alone and depressed, which is hell. People can't be labelled good or bad as everyone is capable of both, although their choices can be.

Sometimes, I like to imagine that the earth was merely a petri dish experiment by super intelligent beings who used their dna to spawn the first organisms on earth. Our evolution could've been limited genetically so that our final outcome was the same species as those who fertilized the planet. I don't think this it true, but it'd make a good movie.

I do believe that in our infinite universe there are similar planets with similar beings to humans. Any life forms that are carbon based DNA, like the snowflake, doesn't have limitless possibilites, as well as more likley combinations that it wouldn't deviate much from. Age of the solar system would determine whether or not they are less evolved or more evolved than us. I think their are definately more evolved planets that actually meddle with ours. I think they did it to speed up our evolution so that we would become similar to them and start communication. Mentally, we've pretty much peaked in how powerful are brains can be, since we don't even know how to tap into all of it's power. We may still physically change, specially as our sun ages and conditions change. Maybe short grey men in suits is our mathematical inevitability.

Sorry about getting off topic.

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:



What im trying to say, just like what you're trying to say, cannot be proven but i'd just like to confirm that it is a possibility which does not conflict with omniscience--leaving predestination out of it.



It is not a possibility. If we assume that logic still stands, then if he knows that you're going to scratch your fingers, then you MUST scratch your fingers (you cannot change your mind) and thus you have no free will.

quote:

I'm just about to click my fingers and there're many ways you can describe this.

1. it was predetermined tat i would choose to click my fingers so i chose to click my fingers.

What you say is true, if this be so then it is actually impossible for me to not click my fingers. But that is predestination.

2. My fingers were itchy, i could crack my knuckles or click my fingers so i clicked my fingers. i chose to do this and someone "all knowing" knew i would do this. But if i wanted to i could crack my knuckles instead. Then the all knowing person would know that. You see you could take that stance that what the allknowing person knows changes according to what your choice is, as apposed to taking the stance that your choice changes according to what the all knowing person knows. they are both just as likely and both just as abstract.

agree? disagree?

Disagree.

You may THINK that you are scratching your fingers because they are itchy, like I said that shows how you FEEL.

The fact remains that if he knew that you are going to scratch your fingers, then you cannot change your mind (i.e. you cannot "crack your knuckles instead"), and thus have no free will. If you cracked you knuckles, which is going against what he said you were going to do, then he was wrong. You weren't going to scratch them, you were going to crack your knuckles. That refutes omniscience.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

[B]

The fact remains that if he knew that you are going to scratch your fingers, then you cannot change your mind [B]

you could just as easily say that if i were to choose to crack my knuckles, he could not know otherwise.

you see what you're saying is that my actions are determined by his knowlage and therefore the future depends on the past, which is true.

But what is also true is that his knowlage is determined by my actions.

You're looking at time as a one-way road. Time is just another dimension (like length) and so there is no 'correct', 'before' and 'after' involved. Just as the future depends on the past, the past depends on the future too. they're kinda inseperable, that's what im getting at. Its like arguing over which hand washes the other... depends on how you look at it.

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:



But what is also true is that his knowlage is determined by my actions.

You're looking at time as a one-way road. Time is just another dimension (like length) and so there is no 'correct', 'before' and 'after' involved. Just as the future depends on the past, the past depends on the future too. they're kinda inseperable, that's what im getting at. Its like arguing over which hand washes the other... depends on how you look at it.

Some people here will go to great lengths to prove the unprovable but travelling back in time is a first! :roll:

_____________________________________________

Sarith wrote:

A lot of people (including rust, i noticed some time ago) refuse to go one step further than this point you've made.

God knows exactly what you're going to do, and you will do that one thing. But that one thing is still your choice. its just that he knows it. Lets say you approach an intersection on a road where you can go straight left or right. Your initial intention was to go straight, but tha road is blocked off because of a bus crash. you can now go left or right. God knows which choice you're going to make (what ever it is). But what ever you do is still your choice. He did not influence it, it happened by your will. In this scenario, there is one possible out come. The outcome you chose. You used your free will to choose to go left or right. And whats more, God knew which choice you were going to make. So both can exist.

_____________________________________________

In support of your suggestion; consider that destiny, which is everything that will happen, without deviation, cannot be influenced by free will because free will cannot exist in such a "fixed" scenario. The snapping of our fingers may or may not be of individual choice and may depend upon what is influenced by it (but is still probably predetermined by events). On the other hand, how we perceive ourselves as we live our lives is a matter of choice and determines how we grow toward divinity, which is our true purpose. Evidence of this purpose may be discovered when one understands that everyone in possession of a conscience strives toward the state of perfection (albeit for themselves). For example, I kill someone but hate myself for it, as opposed to not killing someone yet dream of doing it. Hating oneself for committing a dastardly deed is a growth factor, while desiring something inherently evil has a shrinking effect. This is a very subjective process. Those without apparent conscience are condemned, if you will, to repeat their existence until such a conscience creeps in (emphasis on the creeps). Eventually, though, their realization will promote them through the ranks toward the impossible perfect condition, as required by destiny (God). This is one model for free will as it fits into destiny. Perfection can only be approximated

as we will always make poor choices, but poor choice begets realization. Remember, we are speaking from a very narrow perspective in time.

god couldn't care less

I can't believe some people still don't grasp the concept of free-will and predetermination. If we're going by logic (which I will assume), then if you have free-will, then predetermination cannot exist. And vice versa.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

god couldn't care less

like i said, god is dead

No matter how much this point is shown to them, they will never admit the contradictions in their own belief.

Ignorance is one word for it.

I am not ignorant,

life is beuatiful

no

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

you could just as easily say that if i were to choose to crack my knuckles, he could not know otherwise.

you see what you're saying is that my actions are determined by his knowlage and therefore the future depends on the past, which is true.

But what is also true is that his knowlage is determined by my actions.

You're looking at time as a one-way road. Time is just another dimension (like length) and so there is no 'correct', 'before' and 'after' involved. Just as the future depends on the past, the past depends on the future too. they're kinda inseperable, that's what im getting at. Its like arguing over which hand washes the other... depends on how you look at it.

You're just convoluting the facts.

The fact is, if he knows what you're going to do before you do it, then you have no free will because you cannot change your mind.

An no, your actions cannot predetermin his knowledge. He wouldn't be omniscient then. You can't predetermin anything, because he already knows everything!

You argument fails, period.

"The fact is, if he knows what you're going to do before you do it, then you have no free will because you cannot change your mind."

Nonono... you CAN change your mind... its just that if some one were omniscient then he would know what your end decision is beforehand. Changing your mind is just a thought process, not an action.

"An no, your actions cannot predetermin his knowledge. He wouldn't be omniscient then. You can't predetermin anything, because he already knows everything!"

What i mean is this...

fist, discaard this 'god' concept because i myself am against it and it tends to make people deviate from the point.

assume there to be no god for the moment okay?

Now lets say i build a time machine and go into the future. In the future i see you snapping your fingers. I go back to the past.

Snapping your fingers was your decision and you exersised your free will to do so. You could have not snapped your finger if you wanted. (theres no omniscience involved in this scenario okay?) Lets say you decide not to snap your fingers and to burp instead.

if i go into the future i will see you burp. In this case it is your action which decides what i will know when i come back from my time trip. In this way, your actions determin my knowlage.

whats wrong with this?



"You argument fails, period."

listen to what i have to say before being so blunt next time please.

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

"The fact is, if he knows what you're going to do before you do it, then you have no free will because you cannot change your mind."

Nonono... you CAN change your mind... its just that if some one were omniscient then he would know what your end decision is beforehand. Changing your mind is just a thought process, not an action.

"An no, your actions cannot predetermin his knowledge. He wouldn't be omniscient then. You can't predetermin anything, because he already knows everything!"

What i mean is this...

fist, discaard this 'god' concept because i myself am against it and it tends to make people deviate from the point.

assume there to be no god for the moment okay?

Now lets say i build a time machine and go into the future. In the future i see you snapping your fingers. I go back to the past.

Snapping your fingers was your decision and you exersised your free will to do so. You could have not snapped your finger if you wanted. (theres no omniscience involved in this scenario okay?) Lets say you decide not to snap your fingers and to burp instead.

if i go into the future i will see you burp. In this case it is your action which decides what i will know when i come back from my time trip. In this way, your actions determin my knowlage.

whats wrong with this?



"You argument fails, period."

listen to what i have to say before being so blunt next time please.



If indeed you can predict what the person is doing through a time-machine, that means the person's actions is bound by determinism.

determinism is just saying that there will be only one possible outcome. free will is the ability to choose that outcome. what's to stop what you define as determinism from being my chosen outcome?

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:



Nonono... you CAN change your mind... its just that if some one were omniscient then he would know what your end decision is beforehand. Changing your mind is just a thought process, not an action.

That's exactly what refutes omniscience!

There is no "end decision" if you can change your mind. If there is one, then you CAN'T change your mind and therefore do not have free will!

quote:

What i mean is this...

fist, discaard this 'god' concept because i myself am against it and it tends to make people deviate from the point.

assume there to be no god for the moment okay?

Now lets say i build a time machine and go into the future. In the future i see you snapping your fingers. I go back to the past.

Snapping your fingers was your decision and you exersised your free will to do so. You could have not snapped your finger if you wanted. (theres no omniscience involved in this scenario okay?) Lets say you decide not to snap your fingers and to burp instead.

if i go into the future i will see you burp. In this case it is your action which decides what i will know when i come back from my time trip. In this way, your actions determin my knowlage.

whats wrong with this?

That doesn't support your argument, that's what is wrong.

If you went to the future, saw me burp, and then go back, then I must burp, because if I didn't, you wouldn't have seen the future! The point stands completely; your analogy didn't serve any purpose.



quote:

listen to what i have to say before being so blunt next time please.

I can say the same to you... You're not listening at all. If you were, you wouldn't have given that analogy which doesn't support your point at all.

it can in buddhism. I think it is until you become enlightened and then you have ultimate free will which is no freewill.

I can't be arsed reading all the replies, so I apologise if someone has already mentioned this. What if peoples ideas about God and time were totally off mark, thus rendering this debate meaningless? We assume that time is linear, and that there is only one timeline, and that what we are experience constitutes What Is Real. This is not an unreasonable thing to think, seeing as this is how we experience time. But what if in "ultimate reality" EVERY single possible set of circumstances is existing at the same "time"? An omniscient God could be aware of every decision being made on every "time line", AND our individual threads of consciousness, from our limited perspective, could experience free will, choosing our paths through the time lines?

quote:Originally posted by Sarith:

determinism is just saying that there will be only one possible outcome. free will is the ability to choose that outcome. what's to stop what you define as determinism from being my chosen outcome?

This is where the illusion comes in. You keep thinking you are free to choose and no one is pressuring you, no influence from the environment or whatsoever. There is this throery that says that if, indeed, you are free, there will be alternate universes. Everytime you make a different choice, there will be an alternate parallel universe. So, let's say you at this moment, in this universe, you are reading this, because you have chosen to do read this. At another universe, at exactly the same time, you are not reading this, because you might have chosen to go out and watch some movies.

If the alternate universe theory is true and free-will does exist, your time machine will never work.