While humoring myself with the closed thread of "David Blaine is better than Jesus", I read a reply of Paradise Lost that said

Proof? Without using the Bible/scriptures?

Well, for starters, when the Roman soldier (according to the Bible) speared Jesus in the side, it was said that the sky turned black and the Sun was covered. Written records in Ancient Chine, Constantinople, Rome, and several other places, historians noted "night comming early" and etc, from Western England to Eastern China. It is impossible because of the fast distance that a solar eclipse could have caused this.

Although there will still be controversy about the relavence from the Sun "dissappearing" at the same time Jesus died, the historical markings of Jesus are from England to Rome to Ancient China.

SmartTart

There's no doubt in my mind that Jesus was a real person.

I just think maybe he did lots of drugs.

what written records and what and how are the dates worked out from them ?

or is this just some further rubbish you have picked up from a discarded pamphlet in church?

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

what written records and what and how are the dates worked out from them ?

or is this just some further rubbish you have picked up from a discarded pamphlet in church?



Hey, Hey.

Play nice.

-Val

How is that proof? And where are your sources? If you aren't relying on scriptures then all you've shown is that numerous accounts contribute to the fact that the sky darkened when a man was stabbed in the side.

Ever consider a massive volcanic eruption?

[This message has been edited by Jasper Jones (edited 07-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Valmont:

Hey, Hey.

Play nice.

-Val



no..

i don't play at this.

especially not with ill informed idiots.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

what written records and what and how are the dates worked out from them ?

or is this just some further rubbish you have picked up from a discarded pamphlet in church?



It is just a matter of converting the "begining of time" to each place where the records were originally written, in layman's terms. The Chinese calander, for example, started in 2953 BC and so with the translation to the timeframe of when the Chinese document was written, and that shows how events were all aligned in Eastern-Western Calanders. This is also proven in events such as the Mongols reaching Eastern Europe, where dates were taken on both sides of the event. From events such as this, where records were taken of the same event of two opposing calanders, can historians corrospond the two timeframes.

Good point though, jackketch

SmartTart

EDIT: Sources- http://www.saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/chinese.htm http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/calendar/chinese.html

[This message has been edited by SmartTart (edited 07-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



no..

i don't play at this.

especially not with ill informed idiots.

You know what I mean.

Yes, he should provide evidence--

But let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum.

-Val

(cited sources above, edited)

SmartTart

That's stupid, even if that was true it's not at all truth. It just means there was a great coincidence, or he had the power to turn the lights out. Explain how it's all possible, not about something that happened in the past.

even the briefest glance at the 'sources' you provide show that in the study and correlation of ancient calendars there are few constants and very very few 'givens'.

for example not so long ago someone worked out that the accepted egyptian calendar was out by up to 300 years.

anyone who claims that a specfic date ...let alone an 'hour' can be correlated is on a hiding to nothing.

There are non biblical sources of information about Jesus but your 'darkness theory' is too weak than to be more than a possibility.



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by AlwaysHigh:

...It just means there was a great coincidence, or he had the power to turn the lights out...

A great coincidence is when two twin brothers die in a car accident with each other, not when the Sun is gone from all views of the Earth. You may have a point that "having the power to turn the lights out" doesn't necissarily mean he is "The Messiah", but it does show some outword evidence (other than those directly affilated with him) that he was either a.) God-like or b.) some higher power turned out the lights in some symbolic way to/for him.

Either way, there is much substantial evidence that all the dates line up (I can post sites for those of you who would like to read them) and that something or someone with that much power, in however you want to view it, is not purely human.

quote:

even the briefest glance at the 'sources' you provide show that in the study and correlation of ancient calendars there are few constants and very very few 'givens'.

for example not so long ago someone worked out that the accepted egyptian calendar was out by up to 300 years.

anyone who claims that a specfic date ...let alone an 'hour' can be correlated is on a hiding to nothing.

There are non biblical sources of information about Jesus but your 'darkness theory' is too weak than to be more than a possibility.

Agreed, it may be hard to definatly say that one hour per say, it may be hard to eventfully fallow, but astronomically, how else could such an astronomical event happen? Personally, all I can think of is Eclipse, comet (ash, dust, debre up in the air) and some kind of "higher-power" type thing.

(I will post on the "larger scale" calander allignment when I get back)

SmartTart

EDIT: Including the last quote, post..

[This message has been edited by SmartTart (edited 07-12-2005).]

quote:I can post sites for those of you who would like to read them

i would suggest you do so, then so far by your arguments i think you'd have trouble making the grade as village idiot.

quote:not when the Sun is gone from all views of the Earth

sources please, this should be good...

(btw its almost 2am here and i'm oiff to bed ,so don't think any lack of reply indicates disinterest on my part).

quote:Originally posted by SmartTart:

While humoring myself with the closed thread of "David Blaine is better than Jesus", I read a reply of Paradise Lost that said

Proof? Without using the Bible/scriptures?

Sorry, I've been away for awhile since Totse randomly shuts down on me.

Well you've got part of what I said correct but I never once claimed Jesus didn't exist. I asked if he could prove that Jesus was in fact magic without using the Bible/scriptures.

A sun being obscured sounds like coincidence to me. The day my dog died it was raining, is he God's dog?

I agree with Jack, you are very far away from proving the entire earth was dark at the moment Jesus died.

First of all, I find it hard to believe that you could link the event to other writings as scholars aren't even sure the exact year Jesus died.

I would very much like to see the exact writing of these non biblical sources you talk about.

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:



A sun being obscured sounds like coincidence to me. The day my dog died it was raining, is he God's dog?

Made me laugh.

You have the dog of Christ http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif).

-Val

Lol, Jesus dog.

Amazing coincidences are uncommon but not unheard of.

Two famous one's are from the Aztecs and the Japanese.

Cortez met the Aztecs at around the same time it was believed Quetzalcoatl would return. Cortez then played off of this belief to take advantage of the Aztecs.

The mongols attacked Japan and were easily beating them until a huge typhoon destroyed their ships. They tried again, same thing.

I guess those events must have been caused by God. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

And when God had written the tenth order Moses said unto him "would you like fries with that?"

And is there any proof other than something the Pope wouldn't even verify.

Over 300 Proofs of God's Existence (http://fyad.org/1xza).

quote:Originally posted by Valmont:

You know what I mean.

Yes, he should provide evidence--

But let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum.

-ValAd Hominem is a currency around here. There is no need to mess with the exchange rates unless things get out of hand.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

for example not so long ago someone worked out that the accepted egyptian calendar was out by up to 300 years.

Here, Jack...this might be interesting to you. I found it fascinating.

~ http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-christian.html

Not trying to say you are wrong or anything...just thought it was a good site.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

Originally posted by Valmont:

You know what I mean.

Yes, he should provide evidence--

But let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum.

-ValAd Hominem is a currency around here. There is no need to mess with the exchange rates unless things get out of hand.





would it be undermining your authority as a mod to say that i didn't just attack the man but also his arguments (such as they were0?

jack is a euro, and they seem topride themselves on godlessness.

which is fine. his opinions dont bother me as long as he doesnt insult my legitimate beleifs.

even if he was reduced to attacks on the idea of a god, all it would do is reveal him to be an asshole. everyone can disagree, discussions can be had. but attacking and name calling etc etc is the realm of a fuck, plain and simple.

on a different note, i dont see why it bothers the atheist group around here what others beleifs are. dont you pricks have a life?

quote:jack is a euro, and they seem topride themselves on godlessness.

uhm no...

i have posted more than enough about my personal belief in god.

and as to the rest of what you wrote i'm confused...

This isnt proof, this isnt even circumstancial proof, this is just ridiclous.

quote:Originally posted by Nihilist:

jack is a euro, and they seem topride themselves on godlessness.

which is fine. his opinions dont bother me as long as he doesnt insult my legitimate beleifs.

even if he was reduced to attacks on the idea of a god, all it would do is reveal him to be an asshole. everyone can disagree, discussions can be had. but attacking and name calling etc etc is the realm of a fuck, plain and simple.

on a different note, i dont see why it bothers the atheist group around here what others beleifs are. dont you pricks have a life?

I have 7.92mm written all over your stupid little "legitimate beleifs", bitch. We invented fascism for a reason, and that reason is for you to shut the fuck up about your retarded beliefs.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

uhm no...

i have posted more than enough about my personal belief in god.

and as to the rest of what you wrote i'm confused...



the rest of what i wrote was general musings on what usually happens here and on other boards: a bunch of assholes and/or kids making fun of ppl who believe, calling names and denigrating ppls ideas and thought and beleifs.

those ppl are assholes. they think they are being smart and cool, but they are assholes.

if i guessed wrong as to your beliefs, i appologize.

quote:if i guessed wrong as to your beliefs, i appologize.

its cool ,already. i am a cantankerous old git so you could be forgiven for thinking i'm godless..i'm not...he just doesn't like me much either.

quote:Originally posted by firekitty751:

There's no doubt in my mind that Jesus was a real person.

I just think maybe he did lots of drugs.

He was more policition the a spiritual leader

Ummmm... What time was jesus stabbed?

Couldn't it have been night time in china?

Meaning this whole thing was wrong?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Here, Jack...this might be interesting to you. I found it fascinating.

~ http://w ebexhibits .org/calendars/calendar-christian.html (http: //webexhib its.org/ca lendars/ca lendar-chr istian.htm l)

Not trying to say you are wrong or anything...just thought it was a good site.

indeed a fascinating site, especially the bit on the Julian Period (something i knew nothing about before).

thanks digi http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

there was also a lot of information there to bolster what i said about a correlation being extremely difficult.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

its cool ,already. i am a cantankerous old git so you could be forgiven for thinking i'm godless..i'm not...he just doesn't like me much either.

Nah, He's just nudging you back on track, Jack.

quote:Originally posted by Nihilist:



the rest of what i wrote was general musings on what usually happens here and on other boards: a bunch of assholes and/or kids making fun of ppl who believe, calling names and denigrating ppls ideas and thought and beleifs.

those ppl are assholes. they think they are being smart and cool, but they are assholes.

if i guessed wrong as to your beliefs, i appologize.

Because the majority of the time you get dumb son'a'bitches preaching that science isnt real and that god makes air . Im fine with religion until the point people stray into the realm of idiocy ....

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/003232

Also a lot of christians in general talk down to people "without god" . Or at least ive found that many will give fine speeches about saving everyone ,but when you question them they condemn you and say your going to hell without god. No one ever tries to convince me with anything but threats on my eternal soul.~

Touch my fuckin' soul and i swear ,god or no, im gonna castrate you with the application of some super glue and a crane....



if you cant figure out how it involves your balls the floor ,and the crane pulling up at a high speed.

Edit: Oh yeah ,i was supposed to answer the thread.

Explain to me ,im obviously simple, how on earth does this prove the existence of god?

Jesus was real ,theres no need for proof about Jesus. Yet you offer nothing substantial in the way of explaining god. You expect me to believe that maybe a cloud went across the sky ,or at best an eclipse. And the accounts are all acurate? are you telling me that there is no bias to these accounts?

Im afraid m'dear that you have proven nothing .

I fail to accpet that the only thing god could manage was a dark sky.

id want animals crying out ,id want angels coming for the body of christ ,i want grandeur dammit! if all god could manage was a dark cloud over the sun then you've proven only one thing ,and that is im gonna fuck up god and take the little bastadrs place.

fuck it its too early ,come up with something good if you want to convince me ,i cant be arsed with bullshit right now.



[This message has been edited by JesuitArtiste (edited 07-15-2005).]

vast distance of darkness = solar eclipse?

no. a solar eclipse would make a very small area of shadow on the earth.

It's a HISTORICAL FACT that he existed. No one with any real intelligence on the matter is contesting that. The true argument on that figure (Jesus) is over 'WHAT' he was not 'IF' he was. And also the extent of the punishment he endured, it is believed that the punishments unleashed on him were a LITTLE exagerrated.

Yeah, they beat the shit out of him, but not like it is has been portrayed in the numerous amount of Passion plays produced over the years. Including the resent, "Passion of the Christ". It's physiologically impossible, even if he was spiritualy more than a man, he was physically a man....

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Yeah, they beat the shit out of him, but not like it is has been portrayed in the numerous amount of Passion plays produced over the years. Including the resent, "Passion of the Christ". It's physiologically impossible, even if he was spiritualy more than a man, he was physically a man....

Why is impossible? Have you ever read "When Hell was in Session" by Sen. Jerimiah Denton (sp?)?

It is amazing how much physical abuse the human body can withstand. And concidering Jesus is God, and had to endure... well, it is definitly possible.

quote:It's a HISTORICAL FACT that he existed. No one with any real intelligence on the matter is contesting that.

no, you are wrong.

while i personally totally believe he existed, as someone who has spent many years studying the sources and origins of our faith i have to admit there is at the moment no proof.

i mean proof in the usual accepted historical sense.

infact unless i am mistaken the only character in the jesus story for whom we have 'proof' is pilate...and that only fairly recently.

of course tomorrow morning some isreali taking a leak at the side of a desert road may stumble upon the missing link...

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

infact unless i am mistaken the only character in the jesus story for whom we have 'proof' is pilate...and that only fairly recently.

A couple of Herods also, if i'm not mistaken.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

A couple of Herods also, if i'm not mistaken.



my bad, i forgot about the herods.