I've been doing alot of searching about various things from science to God and im starting to see a big picture. Science has alot right but most people in the field are to materialistic and unwilling to look past current science laws of physics etc to see a big picture, which is that science and spirituallity go hand in hand. Most believers in God think science a atheists following. Anyway theres way to much info to chat about, this post would be pages long just with my 1st post alone, so heres some related and i must say Very interesting links. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce10.html , http://www.nderf.org/cougar_philosophy.htm , http://www.melvinmorse.com/light.htm , http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html . http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=zero+point+energy&btnG=Google+Search , heres a book claimed to be true, whether you believe or not it paints a very interesting picture of the universe and other dimensions http://www.bioresonant.com/freebooks.html the book is thiaoouba prophecy.

You might also enjoy reading about Emanuel Swedenborg. Here's an example site. http://www.glencairnmuseum.org/jkwh.html

NDEs have already been explained away as hallucinations caused by massive chemical releases when the mind senses the body is near death.

As to past-lives and other things, I don't have answers, nor do I expect anyone else to. It's a mystery, for sure, but mysterious doesn't mean supernatural.

Have fun calling me close-minded.

quote:

Have fun calling me close-minded.[/B]

Exactly, if you look at all the facts, read some NDE stories and look at it all its obvious its more than a chemical hallucination. I believe they are real, the people died and before being resusitated experienced their consciousness outside there body. Some people say its ketamine that builds up in the brain while you are an infant that releases when near death to ease suffering. But that doesnt make since cause how many people die agonizing deaths? These NDE's happen after the painful part, why release the ketamine after the pain, and at the point or beyond the point of death(even if temporary)?

Hexadecimal, you're not closed minded, just lacking a little experience, maybe. Nobody can convince you of anything. The truth will come to you when the time is right. It's the same for everybody. For the record, which you do not have to accept, my own visions, dreams, predictions, call them what you will, have confirmed to me (by coming true) that there is a spiritual order to nature. I never sought the ability to predict death, sense spirits, or see the future, and reject seances, ouija boards and all the crap that surrounds such activities. In fact, I question what I see because of a naturally cynical brain. It will not mean anything to you, but several days before 9/11 I had a vision so horrifying I could not go sailing the next day. The content matched what happened that fateful day and I have at most one witness, whom I told it to. That was my sailing partner, Ivan. Of course, he still doesn't understand what I was talking about. Good luck to you.

quote:Originally posted by barehandkiller:

Exactly, if you look at all the facts, read some NDE stories and look at it all its obvious its more than a chemical hallucination. I believe they are real, the people died and before being resusitated experienced their consciousness outside there body. Some people say its ketamine that builds up in the brain while you are an infant that releases when near death to ease suffering. But that doesnt make since cause how many people die agonizing deaths? These NDE's happen after the painful part, why release the ketamine after the pain, and at the point or beyond the point of death(even if temporary)?

Wrong. If you look at the evidence, you see it has nothing to do with theism at all. Like Hexadecimal said, it has everything to do with chemical interactions in the brain.

This is exactly why astronauts report experiencing NDE when training. The machine that subjects them to heavy g-forces so they can experience and withstand the feeling of lift-off and re-entry, produces these NDE. Obviously, since these astronauts are not dying, nor even close to dying, then the answer and the evidence point to it being Chemical and not this ridiculous and theistic notion.

quote:Originally posted by stringalong:

Hexadecimal, you're not closed minded, just lacking a little experience, maybe. Nobody can convince you of anything. The truth will come to you when the time is right. It's the same for everybody. For the record, which you do not have to accept, my own visions, dreams, predictions, call them what you will, have confirmed to me (by coming true) that there is a spiritual order to nature. I never sought the ability to predict death, sense spirits, or see the future, and reject seances, ouija boards and all the crap that surrounds such activities. In fact, I question what I see because of a naturally cynical brain. It will not mean anything to you, but several days before 9/11 I had a vision so horrifying I could not go sailing the next day. The content matched what happened that fateful day and I have at most one witness, whom I told it to. That was my sailing partner, Ivan. Of course, he still doesn't understand what I was talking about. Good luck to you.

Pop 30 benadryls then come back and chat. It's purely chemical, and causes the same sort of trips attributed to NDEs...I'm talking out of body experiences, talking to God, seeing Satan, and all that kind of bullshit. It's the body's chemistry fucking up, not your soul interacting with another plane.

The spirit is anchored in the body, a very few learn whatever it is that can release it from the body(has something to do with the chakra i believe). Ketamine may influence the body in a way to release the spirit similar to a NDE but that doesnt prove NDEs to be a hallucination, i have read info for and against NDE and it can indeed look like the truth can be either one untill you look for a bigger picture. The bigger picture includes things like universal energy, zero point energy, people experiencing past lives under hypnosis, that chemical that when placed between 2 panes of glass and looked through you can see a energy field surrounding us, really to many things to list. I can tell that trying to get you to see it is impossible in your current state, as an above poster said the truth comes to you when the time for you is right. As for the astronauts seeing this NDE things while in extreme gravity just might show that its easier to have a NDE than we think, perhaps with little to no blood in his brain his spirit was released, still doesnt discount NDEs away as just a chemical reaction, although if you read the links and keep in mind some people can leave their body when they want perhaps a chemical reaction triggered by there thoughts is part of that, Edger Cayce was intructed to only use his powers once or twice a day or risk health problems, perhaps his body needed to replenish these chemicals. At least read the stuff in my links before posting unaffected, closeminded thoughts(closeminded because you didnt at least read the info).

No.

You haven't proved a spirit. You haven't proved that even if even if this magical spirit exists, then that it can cause an NDE.

On the other hand, Science CAN, and HAS shown that chemicals created in the human body can produce hallucinations, as can electric impulses. It has shown that these impulses and chemicals are created at the point of near death; as well as points where death is not in any way near.

So sorry, but the truth, if we can reach a conclusion, completely supports the theory that it is produced by chemical or electric impulses, not that these are caused by a magical spirit.

You're right, the truth does come for you at the right time, and that time is obviously when you have the mental fortitude to abandon your silly ideas and open your eyes to see that you have absolutely no evidence, and moreover, that science completely refutes you.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

No.

You haven't proved a spirit. You haven't proved that even if even if this magical spirit exists, then that it can cause an NDE.

On the other hand, Science CAN, and HAS shown that chemicals created in the human body can produce hallucinations, as can electric impulses. It has shown that these impulses and chemicals are created at the point of near death; as well as points where death is not in any way near.

So sorry, but the truth, if we can reach a conclusion, completely supports the theory that it is produced by chemical or electric impulses, not that these are caused by a magical spirit.

You're right, the truth does come for you at the right time, and that time is obviously when you have the mental fortitude to abandon your silly ideas and open your eyes to see that you have absolutely no evidence, and moreover, that science completely refutes you.

Science is blind, theres much more. http://www.melvinmorse.com/e-what.htm . http://www.melvinmorse.com/ch1-clo.htm . http://www.melvinmorse.com/ch1-par.htm . http://www.melvinmorse.com/ch1-tra.htm



[This message has been edited by barehandkiller (edited 07-14-2005).]

Is that a way of saying that you don't have evidence? Because I already knew that...

Those 'energy fields' you speak of are something that EVERY live organism, and some recently dead ones, have. It's called a 'magnetic field'...something produced by the electricity that constantly courses through our bodies.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Is that a way of saying that you don't have evidence? Because I already knew that...

Im posting this stuff mainly to interest people that havent read much or heard much about it, not to try and convince stubborn materialistic skeptics. But heres a interesting list of arguments for and against NDE. http://www.nderf.org/forum/messages/9/756.html?1121418355

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Those 'energy fields' you speak of are something that EVERY live organism, and some recently dead ones, have. It's called a 'magnetic field'...something produced by the electricity that constantly courses through our bodies.

Its a form of energy, same energy as monks try to harness(Chi)

quote:Originally posted by barehandkiller:

Im posting this stuff mainly to interest people that havent read much or heard much about it, not to try and convince stubborn materialistic skeptics. But heres a interesting list of arguments for and against NDE.

This is not just a stubborn materialistic skeptic, is every logical and rational human being in the world. The fact still remains, there is absolutely no evidence supporting your theories.

As for the link, I like how you automatically point to the arguments that favor you. Very telling of what you want, and that is to not look at evidence, but for people to believe your unsubstantiated bullshit.

P.S. Spare me the bullshit about wanting to interest people who haven't heard about it. You are clearly not here to just educate. If you were you would not be saying "its obvious its more than a chemical hallucination".

You're here to spread your belief. I am too, which is why I don't bombard you with similar bullshit statements as "I just want to interest people"...

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-15-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

This is not just a stubborn materialistic skeptic, is every logical and rational human being in the world. The fact still remains, there is absolutely no evidence supporting your theories.

As for the link, I like how you automatically point to the arguments that favor you. Very telling of what you want, and that is to not look at evidence, but for people to believe your unsubstantiated bullshit.

P.S. Spare me the bullshit about wanting to interest people who haven't heard about it. You are clearly not here to just educate. If you were you would not be saying "its obvious its more than a chemical hallucination".

You're here to spread your belief. I am too, which is why I don't bombard you with similar bullshit statements as "I just want to interest people"...



*shrug* water off a ducks back, there is no argument that shuts down NDE's as false, i would be interested in knowing what you believe Rust as far as whats after death, do you think everything just blanks out? nothingness? or what? Yes im here to try to educate people with an open mind, but theres some people unwilling to believe anything which changes there mental picture of what is, and how things work even if it makes more sense, in this case most skeptics are materialistic and blinded by the 5 senses. If it seems impossible to see, hear, feel, smell, or taste (although quite a few say they have) it doesnt exist.

[This message has been edited by barehandkiller (edited 07-15-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by barehandkiller:

If it seems impossible to see, hear, feel, smell, or taste (although quite a few say they have) it doesnt exist.



Without relying on the 5 senses, how can you tell what's real? So are we suppose to believe things that our 5 senses cannot detect? So, The tooth fairy and Santa Claus exist?

You people are fucking hilarious yet you make me sick at the same time.

No scientists WILL be able to fully prove spirit to you, because you have to experience it yourself to know it.

Period.

"NDEs have already been explained away"

lol... I love how things get "explained away" these days. It's like people put their mouths on a scientist's cock, trusted that his semen was completely pure, and swallowed every single bit of his load without a drop spared. Yet now they're infected with STDs which they spread all over the internet without realizing they're infected. I hope SOMEONE sees through that long metaphor.

Grow up.

The "scientist said this, scientist sed dat" shit is getting tired, and old. I'm sure you'll see when the time is right anyways, why should I give a shit.

You'll see. There is no way to put off the truth forever. You have to face reality one day and all the scientists in the world can't make things look pretty or organized for you at that point.

[This message has been edited by Fuck (edited 07-15-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

Originally posted by barehandkiller:

If it seems impossible to see, hear, feel, smell, or taste (although quite a few say they have) it doesnt exist.



Without relying on the 5 senses, how can you tell what's real? So are we suppose to believe things that our 5 senses cannot detect? So, The tooth fairy and Santa Claus exist?



Have you ever heard of anyone seeing them? Thousands perhaps millions have had NDE.

quote:Originally posted by barehandkiller:

Have you ever heard of anyone seeing them? Thousands perhaps millions have had NDE.

Yes I do!

My grandpa has a NDE story that he often tells me. My dad, mom & sis has ghost stories.

The trouble is all these people are very religious people (they tend to have over-active imagination) , while I am a big skeptic.

quote:Originally posted by barehandkiller:

*shrug* water off a ducks back, there is no argument that shuts down NDE's as false, i would be interested in knowing what you believe Rust as far as whats after death, do you think everything just blanks out? nothingness? or what? Yes im here to try to educate people with an open mind, but theres some people unwilling to believe anything which changes there mental picture of what is, and how things work even if it makes more sense, in this case most skeptics are materialistic and blinded by the 5 senses. If it seems impossible to see, hear, feel, smell, or taste (although quite a few say they have) it doesnt exist.



There doesn't have to be an argument that shuts them down as false, because YOU have the burden of proof. Until you prove them to be true, they remain unsubstantiated bullshit.

And no. You're not here to educate with an open mind. If you had an open mind, you wouldn't be claiming that it's obvious Science is wrong. Apparently having an open mind is having a totally bullshit opinion. How wonderful.

quote:Originally posted by Fuck:

You people are fucking hilarious yet you make me sick at the same time.

No scientists WILL be able to fully prove spirit to you, because you have to experience it yourself to know it.



Which is exactly why it remains false until proven otherwise.

If not, then I'll go ahead and claim I'm Jesus' dildo. Yes, I'm his dildo. I have taken human form, but I turn into a dildo whenever Jesus wants to give himself sexual pleasure. Science isn't going to prove this because it can't fully understand me magically turning into a pink dildo and pleasuring Jesus Christ in the ass.

So you completely believe me, right? No? Why? Because it fails the burden of proof. That's how reasonable people think.

Until NDE's or a spirit are proven, they remain unsubstantiated bullshit.

quote:

lol... I love how things get "explained away" these days. It's like people put their mouths on a scientist's cock, trusted that his semen was completely pure, and swallowed every single bit of his load without a drop spared. Yet now they're infected with STDs which they spread all over the internet without realizing they're infected. I hope SOMEONE sees through that long metaphor.

Grow up.

The "scientist said this, scientist sed dat" shit is getting tired, and old. I'm sure you'll see when the time is right anyways, why should I give a shit.

You'll see. There is no way to put off the truth forever. You have to face reality one day and all the scientists in the world can't make things look pretty or organized for you at that point.



I didn't see through the metaphor, the idiocy was too thick.

So we shouldn't at least be accepting of a Scientific theory, supported by evidence, but we should of course support the theory that a spirit exists... ignoring that NOTHING supports that. And you have the gall to turn around the table and accuse those basing themselves on science to belief things by faith? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I posted what i believe, people can look it up and decide for them selves, most probably arent ready for the truth(like you) but maybe a few will SEE. You can lead a horse to water but ya cant make it drink.

[This message has been edited by barehandkiller (edited 07-15-2005).]

So you don't have an open mind, and are not here to educate anyone. You're here to spread your bullshit beliefs just like I said. Thank you.

I believe in "psychic" abilities and all that, but I'm thinking that NDEs are hallucinations. Whatever you imagine the afterlife to be like will be reproduced by your subconscious, like a hallucination or dream. Which is why Christians think they take a trip to heaven or hell. Look at NDEs from another religion and you'll undoubtedly see the afterlife from their viewpoint.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

So you don't have an open mind, and are not here to educate anyone. You're here to spread your bullshit beliefs just like I said. Thank you.

I have looked at both sides openmindedly and decided one view most likely true, i try to look at everything with an open mind as i did with what you had to say to disprove NDEs and the arguments you bring to the table dont hold water for me.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

There doesn't have to be an argument that shuts them down as false, because YOU have the burden of proof. Until you prove them to be true, they remain unsubstantiated bullshit.

And no. You're not here to educate with an open mind. If you had an open mind, you wouldn't be claiming that it's obvious Science is wrong. Apparently having an open mind is having a totally bullshit opinion. How wonderful.

They exist, your saying that they are caused by hallucination is the same as me sayingg they are true consciousness outside the body experiences,so your rules would apply to you as well, all i've seen from you is words which dont hold water. The burden of proof falls on you as well. At least post some decent links.

quote:Originally posted by barehandkiller:

I have looked at both sides openmindedly and decided one view most likely true, i try to look at everything with an open mind as i did with what you had to say to disprove NDEs and the arguments you bring to the table dont hold water for me.

Again, you said that it is obvious science is wrong. That's not a statement indicative of an open-mind. That's a statement made by someone who decided science is wrong. You're close-minded by your own admission.

quote:They exist, your saying that they are caused by hallucination is the same as me sayingg they are true consciousness outside the body experiences,so your rules would apply to you as well, all i've seen from you is words which dont hold water. The burden of proof falls on you as well. At least post some decent links.

Wrong.

1. What I say is supported by evidence, while what you say is not.

2. I have no burden of proof because I didn't make the claim in the first place, you did remember? You claimed that science was wrong. Now prove it.

3. Just because I am a nice guy, I'm providing a link, even though I have no burden to do so:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/HNDEs.html

Not all scientists agree with you Rust, so there goes your point, and what the info in your link says Still doesnt hold water, read the links i posted at the top, you'll read interesting stuff including this.

SHARED VISIONS

Although they seem vividly real, visions like Oski's could be dismissed as being just vivid dreams and nothing more. I might be inclined to dismiss some of these experiences as dreams, too, if it were not for the similarity of these experiences to visions that happen to people who are clearly awake.

The reality of these visions becomes more convincing when they happen to a number of people at the same time.

I call these shared visions. I have heard a number of these and verified most of them. Perhaps the most amazing of these visions is the case of Olga Gearhardt, of San Diego, California.

Olga is the matriarch of a large and tight-knit family that includes four children, several grandchildren, and a number of relatives in California, Arizona, and New Mexico. In 1988 a virus attacked Olga's heart and destroyed much of the muscle. Her heart became so weak that it could no longer beat effectively. The only chance she had for survival was a heart transplant.

Olga was put on the transplant-recipient list at the University of California Medical Center. People who are on this list must be in constant contact with the hospital where the transplant will be done. If a heart becomes available that matches their blood type, it must be implanted within hours of the donor's death for the transplant to be effective. Olgas' entire family was notified of this fact, and they all promised to lend moral support by being there at the hospital during her surgery. Early in 1989 Olga received the call from the hospital that a matching heart had been found. As she and her husband left for the hospital, her children started a telephone chain that notified family members in three states that the transplant was about to begin. In a matter of hours the waiting room of the hospital was overloaded with Olga's family. The only member of the family not at the hospital was Olga's son-in-law. Although he loved his mother-in-law, he had a phobia about hospitals and preferred to await the news at home.

Late that evening her chest was opened and the transplant was performed successfully. At two-fifteen A.M. she developed unexpected complications, and the new heart would not beat properly. As the medical personnel became alarmed, the heart suddenly stopped beating altogether. It took several hours of resuscitation before the heart finally began functioning properly. Meanwhile the family in the waiting room was told nothing about these complications, and most of them were asleep. About six in the morning the family was told that the operation was a success but that she had almost died when the new heart failed.

Olga's daughter immediately called her husband to tell him the good news. "I know she's okay," he said. "She already told me herself."

He had awakened at two-fifteen to see his mother-in-law standing at the foot of his bed. It was as though she was standing right there, he said. Thinking she had not had surgery and had somehow come to his house instead, he sat up and asked her how she was.

I am fine, I'm going to be all right," she said. "there is nothing for any of you to worry about." Then she disappeared.

The vision didn't frighten the son-in-law, but he did get out of bed and write down the time she appeared to him and exactly what was said.

When the family went in to see her, Olga began talking about the "the strange dream" that took place during surgery. She said she had left her body and watched the doctors work on her for a few minutes. Then she went into the waiting room, where she saw her family. Frustrated by her inability to communicate with them, she decided to travel to her daughter's home, about thirty miles away, and connect with her son-in-law.

She told them that she was sure she had stood at the foot of her son-in-law's bed and told him that everything was going to be all right.

There is no way to dismiss this story as a hallucination or as a phenomenon of a chemically imbalanced brain. One could accuse Olga and her family of fraud, but my co-author and I have devoted considerable time to investigating this story, interviewing several members of the family. We have found no discrepancies in any of their stories and no motive to invent such a story.

The only explanation is this: During the time this woman was on a heart-lung machine because her new heart was not functioning properly, she was able to leave her body and communicate with her son-in-law, who was in bed more than thirty miles away.

A story similar to Olga's is documented by a doctor at the Enarby Vancouver General Hospital, in Vancouver, British Columbia.

He tells of two young cancer patients who had spent time together in the hospital's oncology ward. The two girls - Sandra and Chrissy - were together for several weeks as the doctors tried chemotherapy treatments to stop the cancers that plagued them. Finally Sandra was sent home to die, hundreds of miles away from Chrissy. The children had no contact with each other, nor did the families.

Months later Sandra became so ill that she sank into a deep coma. After a few hours she regained consciousness with a relieved look on her face. "Mommy, I went to heaven, and Chrissy came to help me," she said. "She told me I shouldn't be afraid because she was there to help me in heaven." After this vision Sandra had no fear of her impending death. She described heaven as a place of beautiful white light and said that she would be glad to have a fried like Chrissy there with her.

It wasn't until days after Sandra had died that her mother and father discovered that Chrissy had died several weeks before their daughter. For the parents of both children Sandra's deathbed vision was a relief. They now felt that the two girls were together in heaven.

We tend all too often to trivialize these experiences by calling them dreams and fantasies caused by some kind of mental derangement. I frequently receive phone calls at home from my fellow physicians who encounter these experiences and are puzzled by them. Sometimes they are experiences that have happened to patients, and other times they are deeply personal.

One physician told me a sad story in which she felt her spirit being drawn together with that of her dying son. She said they entered a heavenly place together and then she let the boy go. Now she draws tremendous comfort from this experience and feels that she has firsthand knowledge that her son is in a "heavenly world." Nevertheless she has been reluctant to go public with her story. As she put it, "Mel, when they start burning witches again, I want them to come for you first." By this she meant that we often have irrational fear and prejudice of anything that is of a spiritual nature. Challenging such fears can be damaging to one's career. Yet for me the very reason I became a physician seemed to be at stake. My role as a physician is to understand the complete human being, and frankly there is no deeper expression of humanity than spiritual experience.

With my interest in the visionary experience piqued, I realized that my responsibility was to examine visionary experiences scientifically in order to help forge a new understanding of the divine.

I began by examining dozens of cases my research team had collected. We looked at a wide variety of visionary experiences, from near-death experiences and deathbed visions to vivid dreams and spontaneous experiences of mystical light. It soon became clear to me that the near-death experience that happened to Chris when he almost drowned was very similar to the visionary experience of Dr. Oski.

If we could show that there is a common thread that runs throughout all these visions, I thought, then we would be able to shine light on the source of mysticism, one of mankind's greatest mysteries.

quote:Originally posted by barehandkiller:

Its a form of energy, same energy as monks try to harness(Chi)

It's MAGNETISM you ignorant fuck.

quote:Originally posted by Fuck:

You people are fucking hilarious yet you make me sick at the same time.

No scientists WILL be able to fully prove spirit to you, because you have to experience it yourself to know it.

Period.

"NDEs have already been explained away"

lol... I love how things get "explained away" these days. It's like people put their mouths on a scientist's cock, trusted that his semen was completely pure, and swallowed every single bit of his load without a drop spared. Yet now they're infected with STDs which they spread all over the internet without realizing they're infected. I hope SOMEONE sees through that long metaphor.

Grow up.

The "scientist said this, scientist sed dat" shit is getting tired, and old. I'm sure you'll see when the time is right anyways, why should I give a shit.

You'll see. There is no way to put off the truth forever. You have to face reality one day and all the scientists in the world can't make things look pretty or organized for you at that point.



Pop 30 benadryls and shut the fuck up. Chemicals are the primary and only substantiated cause for NDEs, and hallucinations in general. Sure, there may be something more to them, but until evidence of a secondary cause exists, what reason does anybody have to believe a secondary cause is there?

quote:Originally posted by barehandkiller:

Not all scientists agree with you Rust, so there goes your point, and what the info in your link says Still doesnt hold water, read the links i posted at the top, you'll read interesting stuff including this.

Did I say all scientists agreed with it? No. Learn to read and/or not to put words in my mouth.

My argument holds water, because the evidence completely supports it. No amount of whining on your part is going to change that.

I give you a source which cites scientific studies and experiments, and not to mention points out the glaring inconsistencies of your claims and you give me an article (which you didn't even bother to source) based on hearsay? Great.

Reply when you have some evidence, not some bullshit anecdotal account that wouldn't even hold up in a court of law.

Cool barehandkiller. Whether it's real or not, you seem to have some good understanding of spirituality.

Well if you were at all openminded about this subject you would have read the stuff in my links and you would have known my last copied post's source. Here it is anyways http://www.melvinmorse.com/ch1-par.htm . And do you realalize the proof that in is my copied text? The mother while clinically dead woke her son up(who was asleep 30 miles away) and got him to write that message down, Just hallucination? Pah. There are many stories like this and some even more interesting things happen too, like people coming back from a NDE and there cancer going into spontaneous remission, or bringing knowledge back with them. Google Mellen Thomas Benedict for an example.

You may not have said all science but you said science, which is developed by scientists. And if some admit some areas of NDE cant be explained away as hallucination them Science does not back your theory, only Some scientists. And your link only showed me info i have already seen and as i said Doesnt Hold Water. The beings you see during a NDE are determined by your beliefs and/or openmindedness, and how many people do you know with perfect memories? NDE arent remembered by all and even those who do are remembering them through very imperfect brains, this IMO explains the occasional discrepencies.

As for the Magnetism field there may be that quality to it but there are many newly discovered energies that science can barely explain at this point(zero point energy for example) so there is more at work here than they can explain atm.

[This message has been edited by barehandkiller (edited 07-16-2005).]

You really trying to base your knowledge on using facts or being factual, its a bad habbit for one facts are only good as the last time you updated them, they are in constant change, even facts become theory don't they, we base everything off of us ourselves when we miss what were really looking at,

seeing genius is an art all on its own, comes from frustration, simplistic really of perceivement, changing the way in which you view and think about something, we are conditioned to view and think modeled into our society, that leaves us confused

we are trying to perceive things in a way that we can only understand from the way we were conditioned. We separate to find, understand, in that separate we lose the whole picture.

The new problem is that science has found that before collision their is information in a sequence for the building blocks of life, they believed life started after collision, hence came the theory the big bang to produce movement, and collision also flow and direction produced for this bang, now their wondering where all this intelligent genius information came from sitting in atoms particles electrons, do big bangs come with pre intelligent information sequences, dare not touch the big bang theory, the whole entire science world will crumble, before we can live to facts we need all the information, were not at any point to write them into stone without tying them all together so the whole entire picture is there.

trying to perceive only a few ways to see to understand when theirs a million ways to see to understand from looking at the whole entire picture and were going to call it factual with facts, precise science, carve our theories in stone

If we really had any clue, we would not need labs, tools, experiments, we are as good as the questions we ask from the preceivment of perception, and seeing the answers, can we see all the questions and answers ahead of time?

Do we know where the intelligent information came from that is the building blocks for life- when we can answer that question, then will our perception change.

Got this from http://www.nderf.org/forum/messages/9/709.html?1121503053 it seemed fitting for our seemingly endly debate.



[This message has been edited by barehandkiller (edited 07-16-2005).]

Chance and free will don't exist. Based on current circumstances, yes the future can be seen. I wish I still had the link in my bookmarks, but there's a study going on at some college in England (I think) that is just a collection of randomly generated numbers...it just so happens that before major catastrophes, these numbers have a decent record of hitting high marks and staying up there for an extended period of time. It doesn't mean there's anything spiritual behind it, but it hints, for sure, at the ability to predict future events using something physical, not spiritual.

While there are always mysteries in the universe, I've yet to read about a single one that could not be atleast partially explained by current knowledge. Yes, facts are always changing...it's called 'learning'. As new things are discovered, of course what we once knew to be fact is going to change...that's because science is not based on 100% certainty, no logical system can be. Science has laws (observations of the basic workings of the universe), and theories (observation and fact based explanations of our laws). Theories are replaced by better ones as knowledge is expanded...at the moment, the theory that best fits the evidence of NDEs and other 'spiritual' experiences, is that they are caused primarily by chemicals, and that no secondary cause has been found. Sure, in the future that may change, but right now, there's no evidence of secondary, tertiary, or further indirect causes.

What you don't understand is that science deals with probability, not possibility...primarily due to there being only one impossibility in all the universe.

I have heard about the random number thing, i wouldnt call it reading the future tho, maybe it can tell you something big is about to happen, but then you would just have to wait and see what it was. Not much help IMO.

quote:Originally posted by barehandkiller:

Well if you were at all openminded about this subject you would have read the stuff in my links and you would have known my last copied post's source. Here it is anyways http://www.melvinmorse.com/ch1-par.htm



You gave a myriad of links. I'm not god, I can't read all of that tripe in one sitting.

Moreover, that still doesn't mean you don't have to cite where that article is from, even if you gave a link that contained it in another post... you ESPECIALLY have to cite it if it's in another post.

quote: . And do you realalize the proof that in is my copied text? The mother while clinically dead woke her son up(who was asleep 30 miles away) and got him to write that message down, Just hallucination? Pah. There are many stories like this and some even more interesting things happen too, like people coming back from a NDE and there cancer going into spontaneous remission, or bringing knowledge back with them. Google Mellen Thomas Benedict for an example.



It's a STORY. It's HEARSAY. It's an ANECDOTAL ACCOUNT. That is not evidence of anything. Time and time again anecdotal accounts prove to be wrong.

Not to mention, that NO anecdotal account can really say what caused it, but that something happened. That something is already explained away with the link I gave.

Again, give me evidence, not some bullshit account. I didn't ask for storytelling.

quote:

You may not have said all science but you said science, which is developed by scientists. And if some admit some areas of NDE cant be explained away as hallucination them Science does not back your theory, only Some scientists. And your link only showed me info i have already seen and as i said Doesnt Hold Water. The beings you see during a NDE are determined by your beliefs and/or openmindedness, and how many people do you know with perfect memories? NDE arent remembered by all and even those who do are remembering them through very imperfect brains, this IMO explains the occasional discrepencies.



There are morons who think the earth is flat. Does that mean Science doesn't support the earth being round? No. The people who think the earth is flat are total fucking morons, with no evidence. Same applies here.

The people who claim NDEs are the result of a spirit or a god have absolutely no fucking evidence.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-17-2005).]

The thing with the mother communicating with her son-in-law is a special form of telepathy known as remote presence. Being able to do that certainly doesn't mean that her visions of heaven were real.