I often wondered why people would believe such things to a broad extent a long time ago. Something must have been true within all of those stories about greek mythology.

People often going through past life regression encounter such incidents of the supernatural, strange happenings of other gods, even extra terrestrials beings.

Modern science has discredited Atlantis (The lost world/continent that sunk under the ocean thousands of years ago.) Where did all these stories come from? Was the "Garden of Eden" located in the lost world known as Atlantis toward the end? Talking animals, strange creatures, even godlike powers could have existed and been lost throughout history because of gods interbreeding with mortals.

I stumbled opon a website by a very intelligent archeologist that has found something that could have been known as Atlantis...and it seems Atlantis really did exist and such strange things could have taken place. http://www.atlan.org/

Anywho, what is your opinion.

My opinion is that religious people now are as stupid as they used to be 5000 years ago. You could also ask how people nowadays believe in the shithead religions. What's the difference in believing in Jesus or Jupiter? Except that Jupiter was a badass and Jesus was a sissy.

There are revivalist Greek religious folk around today. Same with with Roman/Norse/Slavic.

Anyway, in another thread I stated that I was Asatru-nescient. You'll have to go look for it if you want more explanation.

The Atlantises (there were two of them) were real places, one in the now-island-archipellego Indonesia, and one in southern India. At the end of the last ice age, the glaciers covering most of the earth melted causing the sea level to rise 100-150 meters and completely flood the then-lowlands of southern India and the then-continent Indonesia. The survivors of the flood-times migrated to Egypt, Greece, Mesopotamia and the other sites of next-generation ancient civilization.

"Modern science has discredited Atlantis"? Err no.

What science might discredit is any fantasy surrounding the island, but modern historians and archaeologists believe a city called Helike is the source of the Atlantis myths. It "sunk" after a massive earthquake, which happened a couple of years before Plato's account of the Atlantis myth.

This is how I've always seen it.

As the minds of humans became more able to accept scientific reasons behind occurances, there need to credit Gods was reduced.

For example, the ancient Greeks believed that lightning storms were caused by Zues' anger, in modern times we understand what causes it because we understand the science behind it.

I've always felt that science slowly makes religon obsolete.

-Val

You're going to die, then you'll go before the throne of Zeus, and he'll ask why you never sacrificed any cattle to him. Then you drop into the pit.

quote:Originally posted by Run Screaming:

You're going to die, then you'll go before the throne of Zeus, and he'll ask why you never sacrificed any cattle to him. Then you drop into the pit.

Provided me with a laugh I was in desperate need of.

Heh, and if that happened, if indeed the Egyptians or the Greeks etc. were right, I'd probibly have a good laugh...

Right before suffering eternal torment in the underworld.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif).

-Val

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

What's the difference in believing in Jesus or Jupiter? Except that Jupiter was a badass and Jesus was a sissy.

quote:Originally posted by Valmont:

This is how I've always seen it.

As the minds of humans became more able to accept scientific reasons behind occurances, there need to credit Gods was reduced.

For example, the ancient Greeks believed that lightning storms were caused by Zues' anger, in modern times we understand what causes it because we understand the science behind it.

I've always felt that science slowly makes religon obsolete.

-Val



while it is refreshing to see you write something beyond quips about 'jesus' dog', i have to say your argument ignores the fact that most ancient societies were accomplished scientists - i mean for fucks sake, the babylonians calculated the length of a year to within 6 minutes accuracy!

you really think that their intelligencia really thought that lightening bolts were caused by marduk's anger?

it is far more likely that such fairy tales were used then ,as now, to control the masses...the sordita..the unlearned peasants.

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



while it is refreshing to seee you write something beyond quips about 'jesus' dog' i have to say your argumnet ignores the fact that most ancient societies were accomplished scientists - i mean for fucks sake the babylonians calculated the length of a year to within 6 minutes accuracy! you really think that their intelligencia thought that lightening bolts were caused by marduk's anger?

it is far more likely that such fairy tales were used then as now to control the masses...the sordita..the unlearned peasants.

I've never once made a quip about Jesus' dog jackketch, though I believe you are refering to Snoopy's thread in which his dog was mentioned.

I understand your point as well, however it seems to me that as the intelligence of the masses has grown their ability to accept the scientific reasons the need to credit a God has gone down.

Yes, they were brilliant in some areas, but in others they lacked the technology to understand what was occuring.

Regardless of the gifted scientists you must still take into account the mindset of the whole.

Though one could argue that the intellect of the masses hasn't developed, but that seems quite unlikely to me, however judging by the actions of many people it does make you wonder.

What then do you believe accounts for this "evolution" or change in religious belief?

-Val



[This message has been edited by Valmont (edited 07-18-2005).]

If by "evolution" you mean conversion to Christianity, I have the answer for you:

Campaigns of horror/terror/mass murder. There was no mindset change, it was forced.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

If by "evolution" you mean conversion to Christianity, I have the answer for you:

Campaigns of horror/terror/mass murder. There was no mindset change, it was forced.

That's not what I mean at all.

I mean development more than I mean evolution, sorry for the mix up.

-Val

quote:Originally posted by Valmont:

I've never once made a quip about Jesus' dog jackketch, though I believe you are refering to Snoopy's thread in which his dog was mentioned.

I understand your point as well, however it seems to me that as the intelligence of the masses has grown their ability to accept the scientific reasons the need to credit a God has gone down.

Yes, they were brilliant in some areas, but in others they lacked the technology to understand what was occuring.

Regardless of the gifted scientists you must still take into account the mindset of the whole.

Though one could argue that the intellect of the masses hasn't developed, but that seems quite unlikely to me, however judging by the actions of many people it does make you wonder.

What then do you believe accounts for this "evolution" or change in religious belief?

-Val







quote::Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

A sun being obscured sounds like coincidence to me. The day my dog died it was raining, is he God's dog?

--------------------------------------

Made me laugh.

You have the dog of Christ .

-Val

was the one i was refering to.

it is debatable if the mindset of the masses has evolved/changed.

it would seeem to me that it has merely been redirected.

every day science brings us new explainations and every day more and more people seek interpretation in the 'paranormal'.

Knowledge is the enemy of faith.

-Nietzsche.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

My opinion is that religious people now are as stupid as they used to be 5000 years ago. You could also ask how people nowadays believe in the shithead religions. What's the difference in believing in Jesus or Jupiter? Except that Jupiter was a badass and Jesus was a sissy.

Jesus a sissy ? You are terribly misinformed.

Did you forget how he chased the merchants from the temple, and how he waited for his captors to come and get him in the olive garden and accepting the fate he knew would be his ?

'Jesus a sissy ? You are terribly misinformed.

Did you forget how he chased the merchants from the temple, and how he waited for his captors to come and get him in the olive garden and accepting the fate he knew would be his ?'

ahahahaahahahaha, your funny, yes thats what happend in that childrens book you call the 'bible' but if it actually happened, i doubt it . he didnt exist for a start.

Even if you believe Jesus Christ did not exist ; the character as related in the Bible could hardly be called a sissy.

That better ?

The debate is no longer whether or not Jesus existed but whether or not he was who he claimed to be, the son of God.

Debating if he really ever existed is a truly pointless argument. The Romans had a number of records on him - mostly from when he came to be on trial as well as their records of the initial uneasiness about the large following that he had during his travels. Now this doesn’t mean that he existed without a doubt but the Romans were reliable writers and they would have had no reason to lie about it. There was no possible gain to come from it.

Atlantis thing ---

Will people quit talking about how it definably existed without a shadow of a doubt. Atlantis as told in legends most likely did not exist. The reason is lack of any concrete evidence. Great claims require great proof and of the second there seems to be some lacking. If there was any do you think that there would be so much skepticism? - If anyone cares to debate go ahead.

The link was interesting at first but it went over the top when it said that they found the gorden of eden and everything else.

Atlantis was not an entire continent but just a city.

I recently heard that they found a city that looked exactly like Plato's atlantis.

Jesus did exist.

This "evolved" (hehe) from a atlantis thread to discussing wether jesus existed or not (among other things).

quote:Originally posted by midgetbasketball:

Atlantis was not an entire continent but just a city.

I recently heard that they found a city that looked exactly like Plato's atlantis.



How could they have found a city that looked like Plato's Atlantis ? According to Plato himself, Atlantis was an island located, if I am not mistaken, "beyond the Pillars of Hercules" (but I am not sure I remember right, I repeat).

quote:Originally posted by I See Hell In My Eyes:

I stumbled opon a website by a very intelligent archeologist that has found something that could have been known as Atlantis...and it seems Atlantis really did exist and such strange things could have taken place. http://www.atlan.org/

I took a brief look at that site.

quote:Atlantis was never found because we have all been looking in the wrong places. Realizing that, we started to look for the spot where an entire sunken continent could be hiding itself. Geology afforded the correct, irrefutable answer: down under the South China Sea, that is where.

It's an interesting theory, but I don't believe they found Atlantis. What they have found may have been real, but it is most certainly something else. Remember the continent of Mu (or Lemuria, or any other name it has been called) ? That one is supposed to have been located in the Pacific, but I wonder whether today's Australia, together with Indonesia and so on, might not have been what is still left of that Lemuria. Other parts of it may have been discovered by that scientist mentioned on your link.

If those islands and archipelagoes were not a part of Lemuria, they still might have been independently sunken small geological entities.

Besides : I still believe that the similarity between words such as "Aztlan" and perhaps "Atlan" (which are Mayan or Aztec names) - and probably other words of their language - and the name of the sunken continent, Atlantis, as related by Plato is too obvious to be ignored.

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 08-13-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Pshycho Fraud:

Will people quit talking about how it definably existed without a shadow of a doubt. Atlantis as told in legends most likely did not exist. The reason is lack of any concrete evidence.

No, they won't, and they shouldn't as long as there is the slightest possibility of its existence.

Why do you want people to quit talking about it ? What is debate all about do you think ?

On the Atlantis thing, it is something I hope to study at university over the next 3 years, as I want to specialise in Aegean archaeology/pre-history.

A theory on the tale of Atlantis is that it was brought over from the Egyptians when the Greeks established contact. The island of Atlantis could be Crete, which was inundated with water when the volcano of Thera (also known as Santorini) exploded in about 1650BC. It is thought that a massive tsunami swept across the Aegean and hit Crete, not too far away. *2 of the 3 major palaces were destroyed, with the onbly surviving one being at Knossos, which then rose to be the dominating power on Crete until the Minoan decline.* The Egyptians had many trading links with the Cretans, and therefore would have probably witnessed the eruption of Thera and the decimation of Crete, and taken the tale back to Egypt, where it was passed onto the Greeks.

Just a theory anyway. the writing between the *s is because I am not sure if this is true, I may have those facts muddled.

Anyway... Tallyho.

I would say that the greek gods represented human emotions and their drawbacks. I suppose it makes as much sense as any other religion.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

No, they won't, and they shouldn't as long as there is the slightest possibility of its existence.

Why do you want people to quit talking about it ? What is debate all about do you think ?



Unucus - Read the last part of that sentence.

Twiggy - I take the same view on the Atlantis Myth. - Most of those who immediately say that this cannot be the site of Atlantis as it is inside the gate of Hercules don’t know that there is actually another gate of Hercules leading out of the Aegean sea towards the rest of the med. - Also that is actually the same field that I am planning on getting into. I was curious what University you are planning on going to.



Tootles,

- P.F

Ah cool its good to see another enthusiast for such an "uncool" subject (believe me I get the piss taken aplenty). I'm hoping to study Archaeology at the university of Birmingham (UK) and specialise in the Aegean side of things, maybe doing one year on Egypt, as both civilisations had trade/communications links, which can be seen in Greek art! Ok so I'm getting started again. I apologise. Where you going to be studying?

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

you really think that their intelligencia really thought that lightening bolts were caused by marduk's anger?

it is far more likely that such fairy tales were used then ,as now, to control the masses...the sordita..the unlearned peasants

Likely. We often hear that people 1000 or 2000 years ago thought earth was flat, but Eratosthenes (I may confuse names) already had measured, roughly, the earth's diameter by using a trick involving a stick stuck upright into the ground, the shadow cast by it, and the sun.

quote:Originally posted by Pshycho Fraud:

Unucus - Read the last part of that sentence.

What sentence ?

quote:Twiggy - I take the same view on the Atlantis Myth. - Most of those who immediately say that this cannot be the site of Atlantis as it is inside the gate of Hercules don’t know that there is actually another gate of Hercules leading out of the Aegean sea towards the rest of the med.

Smells like BS... gates of Hercules ? It's "pillars" of Hercules.[/quote]

quote:Tootles,

I may be repeating myself, but it's "toodles". Just hate to see someone using words he thinks no one else knows the wrong way.

quote:Originally posted by Twiggy:

Ah cool its good to see another enthusiast for such an "uncool" subject (believe me I get the piss taken aplenty).

Considering you so carefully "not-notice" my own posts about the subject, I would like to draw your attention to them, if you don't mind. I may have used some arguments you might want to consider.

quote:Originally posted by I See Hell In My Eyes:

http://www.atlan.org/

Anywho, what is your opinion.

Thanks for making me remember bout that site!

As for Atlantis, there is evidence of sunken ruins in Central America: Bimini Road.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

I may be repeating myself, but it's "toodles". Just hate to see someone using words he thinks no one else knows the wrong way.

Unucus,

1) Well you see I posted "Will people quit talking about how it definably existed without a shadow of a doubt." You responded by saying "No, they won't, and they shouldn't as long as there is the slightest possibility of its existence "

Then I said that you should read the rest of the sentence. Well in that sentence that you first responded to I at least tried to say that people should stop talking of Atlantis as cold hard fact. That is one reason I don’t take your site very well- it talks of Atlantis as fact.

2) I’m sorry. It seems that I made the mistake of saying Gates or Hercules instead of the Pillars of Hercules. As for whether or not it exists, the Pillar that I was talking about, I saw it on the history channel on the show called "The Search for Atlantis"- I understand that this is not the most reliable source but I do not see any advantage for them lying about it. I doubt that they would risk their reputation over such a trivial thing.

3) If I had meant toodles that is what I would have said. I suggest that you look up tootles.

Twiggy- I am not sure where I will go to school yet. I am only 15 so I need some time to really look at my options. Though If I had to choose now I would probably pick

the university of California at Santa Barbra

or Emory University or possibly The University of Pennsylvania.

Also- The main reason that people began searching for Atlantis is because of Plato’s writing, correct? But did he not say that the island was larger than Europe and Asia combined, or something of that Nature.? How could a place of such magnitude just disappear without a trace?

TOOTLES,

P.F

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

My opinion is that religious people now are as stupid as they used to be 5000 years ago. You could also ask how people nowadays believe in the shithead religions. What's the difference in believing in Jesus or Jupiter? Except that Jupiter was a badass and Jesus was a sissy.

that's some good ego

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

Considering you so carefully "not-notice" my own posts about the subject, I would like to draw your attention to them, if you don't mind. I may have used some arguments you might want to consider.



Dude I think your posts are great and I always stop to read them if I have time. However, I did not when I posted this and did not "carefully "not-notice"" them.

But really, I'm not sure what to say back to them. If you are arguing for the existence of Atlantis, where exactly are you placing it?

I still stand by the theory that "Atlantis" was indeed either the Minoan cities on Crete which are thought to have been destroyed by tsunamis, or indeed the city and people on Thera itself. It is known that there were inhabitants on Thera at the time of the eruption.

After doing research over the last few days, I lean more to the opinion that it is Thera itself which is described in Plato's writing. Excavations at Akrotiri on Thera have unearthed a relatively advanced civilisation. This dates from 1640BC and Plato was writing in about 358BC. It is thought that some of those who escaped settled in various regions such as Crete or maybe even as far as Egypt, and told of how their home sunk under the sea. It is not hard to imagine how big an event this must have been when the island of Thera is rather large - Here is a picture from one side of the caldera to the other http://www.folknouveau.com/wildmoon/passions/statflowers.jpg

So if this is indeed Plato's Atlantis, this is probably what happened:

1) Thera begins to erupt in 1640BC (ish).

2) The inhabitants leave taking few possessions.

3) Some return after to try and rebuild homes and the port.

4) The volcano erupts again.

5) After this, the magma chamber collapsed - "sinking" into the sea and taking with it most of the infrastructure of the island.

So put yourself in the mind of a primitive fisherman, as you escape the island for a 2nd time, and watch it sink beneath the waves. He would not know that the island was in fact a volcano and it had erupted. This would be an act of the gods.

Everyone knows that with time, stories change. When Plato heard the story so many years later, this had obviously been changed into the myth we know today - the city with the 7 rings who were a utopian society and so on and so forth.

I don't know. It has holes - especially the "pillars of Herakles" bit. But hey, its just a theory. I'd love for the myth to be absolutely true myself.

unless the inhabitants were gods themselves any notion of a preexisting utopian society is already far-fetched enough for me

quote:Originally posted by qazwsx:

unless the inhabitants were gods themselves any notion of a preexisting utopian society is already far-fetched enough for me

Absolutely! Thats why I stand by the theory that the tale of the people of Thera and its eruption was simply passed down over a thousand years and "bigged up" to use total slang language.

quote:Originally posted by Pshycho Fraud:

[quote]Unucus,

<tired>UNCUS it is...</tired>

quote:1) Well you see I posted "Will people quit talking about how it definably existed without a shadow of a doubt." You responded by saying "No, they won't, and they shouldn't as long as there is the slightest possibility of its existence "

Then I said that you should read the rest of the sentence. Well in that sentence that you first responded to I at least tried to say that people should stop talking of Atlantis as cold hard fact. That is one reason I don’t take your site very well- it talks of Atlantis as fact.

I am sorry - you are actually right. I must have glanced over it too quickly. Of course, I didn't mean to say that they should talking about it as hard fact when they have no actual proof.

You may feel I am talking about Atlantis as fact, but I am merely convinced that some very good arguments plead in favour of its existence, and I would like you to consider those arguments, which in a debate would be expected I think, rather than ignoring them because you don't like my supposed taking the existence of Atlantis as a fact.

quote:2) I’m sorry. It seems that I made the mistake of saying Gates or Hercules instead of the Pillars of Hercules. As for whether or not it exists, the Pillar that I was talking about, I saw it on the history channel on the show called "The Search for Atlantis"- I understand that this is not the most reliable source but I do not see any advantage for them lying about it. I doubt that they would risk their reputation over such a trivial thing.

I am still a bit skeptical you know. The Pillars of Hercules are supposed to be in one place, not at opposing sides of the Mediterranean.

quote:3) If I had meant toodles that is what I would have said. I suggest that you look up tootles.

Well, I will. I didn't know you were that good in verbal expression, I merely assumed you were spelling it wrongly as so often happens. Sorry if I got it wrong.

quote:Also- The main reason that people began searching for Atlantis is because of Plato’s writing, correct? But did he not say that the island was larger than Europe and Asia combined, or something of that Nature.? How could a place of such magnitude just disappear without a trace?

I didn't read Plato's text myself. Did he say that ? If he did, that would be a clear indication that Santorini cannot be Atlantis, wouldn't it ?

And don't forget that Atlantis disappeared (or is supposed to have disappeared) over the course of time. It wasn't just one cataclysm.





[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 08-18-2005).]

I looked up tootles. As I thought, it doesn't mean the same thing as "toodles" and using it for saying "bye" is improper. You should not have told me to look it up.

quote:Originally posted by Twiggy:



Dude I think your posts are great and I always stop to read them if I have time. However, I did not when I posted this and did not "carefully "not-notice"" them.

But really, I'm not sure what to say back to them.

Am I to understand they make sense to you ?

quote:If you are arguing for the existence of Atlantis, where exactly are you placing it?

In the Atlantic Ocean, of course, somewhere between Europe, Africa, and the Americas.

quote:I still stand by the theory that "Atlantis" was indeed either the Minoan cities on Crete which are thought to have been destroyed by tsunamis, or indeed the city and people on Thera itself.Pshycho Fraud is presenting an argument that Plato himself said Atlantis was very, very big. If this is true, it cannot have been any of the islands or cities in the Mediterranean.

I will try to reply to the remainder of your post later.

Indeed, Plato DID say it was very very big. But, I reckons its like the old story: A guy gets robbed by a man with a stick. The story is passed on, and the stick becomes a bat, then a log, then a whole tree... Ok, you get my point.

Plato was writing a hell of a long time after the "events" relating to the loss of Atlantis. I believe this was the eruption of Thera, and that as stated previously, the whole thing was bigged up over time.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

I looked up tootles. As I thought, it doesn't mean the same thing as "toodles" and using it for saying "bye" is improper. You should not have told me to look it up.

When did I ever say that toodles and tootles mean the same thing or that Tootles meant bye? According to the all knowing and powerful Webster - tootle as a verb means " to toot in a continuous manner"- which brings us to what toot means; " to blow a horn; a short blast " and " to stand out and be prominent " as well as " to peep; to look at narrowly" and of course a drinking bout" although that one doesn’t really have anything to do with the verb. On the whole it seems obvious to me.

Size of Atlantis thing - I was trying to point out that it couldn’t have been that large. Something of that size leaves very, very obvious signs of its existence on the ocean floor. Every Continent and smaller landmasses has done so, why would one not?

Here are a few links taking a more skeptical view of Atlantis- could be interesting to some –

skeptic.com/atlantis/atlantis4.html

http://www.rain.org/homeschool/atlantis-about-1.html

http://www.google.com/search?q=pillars+of+hercules+aegean+sea&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N

By the way when did Rust become a Moderator?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheNihilist:

'Jesus a sissy ? You are terribly misinformed.

Did you forget how he chased the merchants from the temple, and how he waited for his captors to come and get him in the olive garden and accepting the fate he knew would be his ?'

ahahahaahahahaha, your funny, yes thats what happend in that childrens book you call the 'bible' but if it actually happened, i doubt it . he didnt exist for a start.

Theres a quote button you know.

quote:Originally posted by Twiggy:

Indeed, Plato DID say it was very very big. But, I reckons its like the old story: A guy gets robbed by a man with a stick. The story is passed on, and the stick becomes a bat, then a log, then a whole tree... Ok, you get my point.

You may be reckoning wrongly. That old story of yours does not apply automatically anytime information is passed on.

quote:Plato was writing a hell of a long time after the "events" relating to the loss of Atlantis.

Yes, about 11000 years according to some esoteric sources.



[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 08-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Pshycho Fraud:

When did I ever say that toodles and tootles mean the same thing or that Tootles meant bye?

So then, what ARE you meaning to say with "Tootles" if not something like "bye", "adios", or "au revoir" ?

quote:Size of Atlantis thing - I was trying to point out that it couldn’t have been that large. Something of that size leaves very, very obvious signs of its existence on the ocean floor.

What are those obvious signs of its existence do you think ? Don't expect to find signs saying "Here lies Atlantis".

For one thing, the ocean floor is very deep in mid-Atlantic, and during the course of 12,000 years a thick layer of sediment and vegetation has covered whatever was there before, not to mention volcanic and tectonic activity.

On the contrary, I would say it is unlikely any testimonies to the existence of Atlantis will be found, but I could be wrong.

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 08-18-2005).]

Twiggy, new information has emerged about the location of Atlantis. Amazingly, it is located in Switzerland (http://ch.tilllate.com/EN/location.php?lid=175&setlang=EN)...

As a general argument for all those who think the discovery of remains of old civilization in parts of coastal regions here or there proves that these are the remains of Atlantis, I want to mention that those remains can indeed be found at many places. When the tsunami occurred in Asia in December 2004, fishermen in Sri Lanka testified than when the sea retreated to several hundred meters - before the actual tsunami hit - they saw stone artifacts out there, statues or buildings, I don't remember exactly (I think they saw just one particular artifact). Does that prove now that THAT is the location of Atlantis ? Of course not. Many such artifacts are waiting to be found, however Atlantis was just at one particular location.

I get the impression that a lot of effort is being spent in trying to prove that Atlantis's location, if it existed at all, was just about anywhere except in the Atlantic Ocean.

You may not be aware of this, but there even is or was someone thinking that Atlantis was a place somewhere between Denmark, Germany and The Netherlands (Helgoland). But of course you are going to learn all about this in university. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 08-18-2005).]

Uncus,

So I take it that you yourself don’t really know what Plato said about Atlantis, but you still seem to defend/rely on the things that he said to be true? Correct me if I am wrong here.

After reviewing my facts, Plato said that it was a large island the size of Libya and Asia (Northern Africa and the middle east) outside of the Pillars of Hercules. That is what most people think Plato said about the location of Atlantis, but it seems that he went much further on. It seems that he claimed that ships can no longer sail in the Atlantic Ocean because the sunken continent is too near to the surface. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.... Then there is the fact that Plato nor any Greeks knew anything about the Atlantic because the Phoenicians were quite insistent on nobody getting close to that general area for the protection of their trade routes. Again I say hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

That’s all,

Tootles



Oh ya, Unucus I was wondering how old you are - you sure have been around totse for quite a while

quote:Originally posted by Pshycho Fraud:

The debate is no longer whether or not Jesus existed but whether or not he was who he claimed to be, the son of God.

Debating if he really ever existed is a truly pointless argument. The Romans had a number of records on him - mostly from when he came to be on trial as well as their records of the initial uneasiness about the large following that he had during his travels. Now this doesn’t mean that he existed without a doubt but the Romans were reliable writers and they would have had no reason to lie about it. There was no possible gain to come from it.

Atlantis thing ---

Will people quit talking about how it definably existed without a shadow of a doubt. Atlantis as told in legends most likely did not exist. The reason is lack of any concrete evidence. Great claims require great proof and of the second there seems to be some lacking. If there was any do you think that there would be so much skepticism? - If anyone cares to debate go ahead.



3 historians wrote about him as well 1 a jew right after this occured the next a roman and i believe another roman 100 years later

quote:Originally posted by Pshycho Fraud:

Oh ya, Unucus I was wondering how old you are - you sure have been around totse for quite a while

None of your business http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

How can you reproach me relying on Plato without having read him myself when you yourself, in the same post, state "it seems..." etc.

I would be greatly surprised if you had read one single word by Plato himself.



[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 08-19-2005).]

As some may know, the Sargasso Sea is fraught with mystery. It has the dubious reputation of having been in some as yet not understood way the cause of the loss of ships and airplanes in the twentieth century and probably earlier.

The Sargasso Sea is a part of the Atlantic Ocean located roughly east of the Bahamas and other islands of that region, and north of the northeastern part of South-America. It seems to be covered with a layer of algae which makes movements of ships impossible.

There really IS something strange about that part of the Atlantic Ocean. I don't claim this implies that there is where Atlantis must be located, but I do think it's at least a possibility. The Sargasso Sea being so unaccessible, I don't think it has beeen searched much.

You mean the Bermuda Triangle right?

The Bermuda Triangle is better known today, but I think they are more or less the same geographic region, even if the Sargasso Sea hasn't the shape of a triangle strictly speaking.

See the influence of the media ? You knew the Bermuda Triangle but not the Sargasso Sea, and I bet this goes for most people of your generation.

The media? Well I wouldn't go that far. I don't think I've ever seen anything about the Bermuda Triangle in a paper or on TV in like... Forever. But c'est la vie.

I dont understand what you are trying to get at by putting me down for saying " It seems".

I have read a bit of Plato. We covered it in a short college class that I did at a college.



The Sargasso Sea has so much algae that it stops ships? Do you know how long it has been like this? If it has been there for a long time it seems that this can be ruled out as a possible site of atlantis. The people of Atlantis had ships too and if our modern day ones cannot really make it through how could a ship a few thousand years ago do so?

Just a thought,

P.F

Good day sir

quote:Originally posted by Pshycho Fraud:

I dont understand what you are trying to get at by putting me down for saying " It seems".

I have read a bit of Plato. We covered it in a short college class that I did at a college.

Hello and good day.

You are accusing me of putting your down for saying "it seems" ; well, you were critizing me for "relying" on Plato while not knowing exactly what he had written.

It is a stupid waste of time for me to have to point out to you the inconsequence of your own using data based on "it seems" while you are criticizing me for considering information useful coming, according to what I heard and read, from Plato himself.

quote:The Sargasso Sea has so much algae that it stops ships? Do you know how long it has been like this? If it has been there for a long time it seems that this can be ruled out as a possible site of atlantis. The people of Atlantis had ships too and if our modern day ones cannot really make it through how could a ship a few thousand years ago do so?

Maybe I should point out that if the Sargasso Sea is located where Atlantis was before, then it didn't exist at the time when Atlantis still existed.

In other words, the Saragasso Sea would have been in existence for about 12,000 years.

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 08-30-2005).]

Some interesting data on the Sargasso Sea (http://va.essortment.com/sargassoseawid_ramo.htm).

The Sargasso Sea, being a body of water rotating slowly clockwise and comprised between currents surrounding it, as I see it is similar to cyclones/anticyclones - and hurricanes - in the earth's air layer.

Click here (http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/images/SargassoSea_image.html) for a bee-yootiful view - breathtaking really - of the Sargasso Sea.

According to Straight Dope (but perhaps they got it from Plato http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) ) it seems (but maybe that's only rumour) that no mermaids (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msargasso.html) have been found as yet.

And another interesting tidbit, from which I excerpted the following quote, here (http://bstar.net/bermudatriangle/geography.htm).

quote:While people snorkel in the water only a few hundred feet deep near the coasts of the islands and Florida and ships can be seen sunk in the clear blue waters, this area is incredibly deceptive. To this day, the ocean floor of this area has not been systematically mapped out. It is known that the ocean floor is littered with caves and varies greatly in depth.

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 08-31-2005).]

"Maybe I should point out that if the Sargasso Sea is located where Atlantis was before, then it didn't exist at the time when Atlantis still existed."

- That is a very good point that you just made. I cannot believe that I did see that. I guess that I did not take the time to think about it enough before posting.

- I still do not see the problem with saying it seems. I mean, assuming that the translations are correct, it does seem that Plato said this. I am just not grasping your point here.

There used to be a island just off the coast of greece and it held a civilisation that was way more advanced than the greeks, however, it was abdaonded and it sunk under the sea.. but I can't remember the name the island or what the people where called.. its apprently said the island was deserted due to earthquakes and volcanoes.. or osmething..

Norse Pantheon PWNS modern day religion.

Norse mythology : Giant gods that battle with huge monsters and have sex with mortals aswell as getting pissed on super-god ale.

Christianity : Love thy fellow man, except don't marry him. The best thing jesus ever did was turn water into wine and even that is pretty lame by most old polytheistic religions (greek,norse,pagan).

If you're going to believe in aload of self comforting lies/superstition you might aswell believe in a cool one.

quote:Originally posted by Witchdokter:

There used to be a island just off the coast of greece and it held a civilisation that was way more advanced than the greeks, however, it was abdaonded and it sunk under the sea.. but I can't remember the name the island or what the people where called.. its apprently said the island was deserted due to earthquakes and volcanoes.. or osmething..

Your a little late bud, (scroll up and last page)

quote:Originally posted by Witchdokter:

There used to be a island just off the coast of greece and it held a civilisation that was way more advanced than the greeks, however, it was abdaonded and it sunk under the sea.. but I can't remember the name the island or what the people where called.. its apprently said the island was deserted due to earthquakes and volcanoes.. or osmething..



You are probably talkking about a small volcanic island, Santorini. Some researchers believe this was Atlantis. I don't. Atlantis is specifically supposed to have been located in the Atlantic - beyond the Pillars of Hercules. That's clear enough.

It was also specifically said that one could not sail out of the Med. into the Atlantic because the sunken continent was too close to the surface making it too shallow for ships.

If you look at the stories of the Greeks, you will find out that people in those days were not so stupid that they would take their myths literally. That came later.

quote:Originally posted by Pshycho Fraud:

It was also specifically said that one could not sail out of the Med. into the Atlantic because the sunken continent was too close to the surface making it too shallow for ships.

What are you saying now ? This doesn't make sense, does it ?

Anything new on the Greek Gods/Atlantis front ?

BTW, I would like to know if the thread starter considers there to be a connection between the Greek pantheon and Atlantis.

Anybody learned anything new relating to Atlantis etc ? I am interested in continuing this conversation, I don't see why it should be let to die.

BTW, a question to the thread starter : do you see any particular connection between the Greek gods and Atlantis ? There is one, but I would like to know why you were mentioning them both in one post and to elaborate a bit - if you are still interested in your thread.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

What are you saying now ? This doesn't make sense, does it ?

What i was trying to point out was that what Plato said shouldnt be taken too seriously. Noone even knows if this was written to be an historical account or a story trying to put out a moral, as he is known to have done.

Greek mythology along with all mythology was a way for people to explain common truths that could not yet be proven with science. The gods and demi gods themselves each represented a facet of humanity. The stories of their relationships and their trials and intrigue are all allegorical -

But, not only allegorical. Aside from explaining common humanity in a way people could accept and understand most mythology conveys an important moral, lesson, or human law.

The gods and demi-gods of ancient pagan religions were worshipped in a different way - also - than more modern monotheistic religions. When worshipping - for instance Diana they were paying homage to her facet of life in hopes that it would bring good luck in that facet of their own lives. By paying attention to that figure they were also enhancing that figures power in themselves and their lives.

They didn't believe that gods were all powerfull or perfect in any way. Each god had it's own set of faults and vices, just like people. This helped them understand the gods more and made it more believeable that the gods understood us and helped us.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

Even if you believe Jesus Christ did not exist ; the character as related in the Bible could hardly be called a sissy.

That better ?

He chased a few fat fucks, was nailed to a cross, and died. Yeah. He's a total badass. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I think Jupiter wins.

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Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. </pre>

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