after jesus 'died for our sins', every human on earth had to 'accept jesus christ in their heart' or they would go to hell. because aparently being born is a sin in itself.

so what happend to all the natives and aboriginals around the world who never even had the chance to hear about jesus? did they go to hell?

hell doesn't exist

I have not gotten a straight answer from a christian if God would send someone to hell for being born in the wrong place.

No, they wouldn't be punished because they had no way to know about God's requirements.

MasterPython, I have given this answer many times, straight from the Bible.

Romans 1:20-21 - "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Even those who do not know the Scriptures are without excuse because, all around them, they can see ample evidence of the eternal power and deity of God. This should cause them to seek God.

~ http://tinyurl.com/d4juq

They did seek god. They only reached different ones.

Show me how nature is evidence of the Christian god, and only the Christian god, and you would have a point. If you cannot, then one can easilly conclude it's evidence of other gods (or no god at all) and hence the Native Americans were not in the wrong.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

MasterPython, I have given this answer many times, straight from the Bible.

Romans 1:20-21 - "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Even those who do not know the Scriptures are without excuse because, all around them, they can see ample evidence of the eternal power and deity of God. This should cause them to seek God.

~ http://tinyurl.com/d4juq

So the Native Americans that worshipped Native American gods are in heaven?

I got it, God is an asshole. Still don't see how anyone could find out about Jesus without meeting him or being told by someone. I believe he is nessesary for getting into Heaven if you want to go by those rules. So does that cary as far children who die too young to know themselves let along God or anyone else?

It's not having jesus in your heart, but the ideals of jesus. Many people are good people without even believing jesus existed.

quote:Originally posted by kindbud:

[B]did they go to hell?

Yes. Go back to sleep now.

1. You have toenail fungus.

2. Accept that it is bad.

3. You must therefore buy the cure.

I simply dont understand how you can believe in one breath that there is a just and loving God, and in the other tell everyone that if you dont listen to what he says he'll send you to a place where you are tortured for all eternity. The two philosophies are mutually exclusive. God cannot love you in one moment and send you to hell for not knowing who he was in the other.

Being mormon, I believe that after this life is over, your spirit is transported into the spirit world, where the richeous teach the unricheous the gospell of Jesus Christ. Then knowing the greatness of God, these souls can repent and be baptised, and live in everlasting happiness with their father in heaven.

If you search through the bible there is no specific reference to "hell" as tradition dictates it. What we now think of as "hell" was created by dante and proliferated by the catholic church. A just and loving God would never create a place of such horror.

The Idea of hell wasn't created by Dante.

You're also wrong on the account that hell only involves torture and pain. Hell can also mean "limbo", which is where the indians would go as would unbaptized babies.

quote:Hell can also mean "limbo", which is where the indians would go as would unbaptized babies.

napoleaon, for once we almost agree..

infact we all will go to 'hell'. the bible is quite clear that we will all lay down in sheol. which is 'limbo' or teh grave.

as to the christian idea of a danteques 'hell' (gehenna) , there some of you need to reread your bibles.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

They did seek god. They only reached different ones.

Show me how nature is evidence of the Christian god, and only the Christian god, and you would have a point. If you cannot, then one can easilly conclude it's evidence of other gods (or no god at all) and hence the Native Americans were not in the wrong.

You make as strong point. But you cannot say with any certainty that the Christian God is the one that made it all. But, if the Christian God is right, and to be believed, then His word is, they dont go to heaven.

But also realize that God sentences people to Hell for different punishments. Hitler is definitely going to get a far worse punishment than, lets say, the friendly, nice atheist down the lane. Both werent Christian, but the degree of their acts are far different.

I can say with all certainty that these people that die and never heard of God are going to Hell (unfortunately), but their sentences will be far lighter than evil people that did hear the word but rejected it.

But remember, God is going to hold those accountable that could have done something but didnt.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

You make as strong point. But you cannot say with any certainty that the Christian God is the one that made it all. But, if the Christian God is right, and to be believed, then His word is, they dont go to heaven.

But also realize that God sentences people to Hell for different punishments. Hitler is definitely going to get a far worse punishment than, lets say, the friendly, nice atheist down the lane. Both werent Christian, but the degree of their acts are far different.

I can say with all certainty that these people that die and never heard of God are going to Hell (unfortunately), but their sentences will be far lighter than evil people that did hear the word but rejected it.

But remember, God is going to hold those accountable that could have done something but didnt.

You dont' have to believe that the christian god is real and that he punsihes people.

We mormons believe that one's punishment is far less direct than eternity in the lake of burning fire, but simply an eternity without God.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

You make as strong point. But you cannot say with any certainty that the Christian God is the one that made it all. But, if the Christian God is right, and to be believed, then His word is, they dont go to heaven.

Which makes him, as MasterPython points out, an asshole.

quote:

But also realize that God sentences people to Hell for different punishments. Hitler is definitely going to get a far worse punishment than, lets say, the friendly, nice atheist down the lane. Both werent Christian, but the degree of their acts are far different.

I can say with all certainty that these people that die and never heard of God are going to Hell (unfortunately), but their sentences will be far lighter than evil people that did hear the word but rejected it.

But remember, God is going to hold those accountable that could have done something but didnt.



So?

Great, the native Americans aren't getting coals packed into their asses... they just get burned. How wonderful. I'm sure they were relieved. God is still an asshole. He's still malevolent.

Also, you can't say it with ANY certainty.

Any view of God as malevolant is wrong in my humble opinion. Any view that makes God look malevolant is also incorrect.

What else do we call a god that deliberately chooses that we suffer when there is absolutely no reason for us to suffer? Malevolent.

No amount of running around in circles is going to change that simple fact.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

What else do we call a god that deliberately chooses that we suffer when there is absolutely no reason for us to suffer? Malevolent.

No amount of running around in circles is going to change that simple fact.



Aha! But there is reson to suffer. Their blood rests in the hands of their ancestors that broke away from Judaism.

There is a reason? Then tell me the reason, and then tell me how an omnipotent and omniscient god couldn't chose another alternative to suffering, one which is infinitely better, and that still yields the same results.

Do so now.

ArgonPlasma2000: Aha! But there is reson to suffer. Their blood rests in the hands of their ancestors that broke away from Judaism.

I never did get the "you have to pay for your ancestors' sins" thing. Is it because we're incarnations of our ancestors, or what?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

What else do we call a god that deliberately chooses that we suffer when there is absolutely no reason for us to suffer? Malevolent.

No amount of running around in circles is going to change that simple fact.





You would do well to read some of my above posts to see my view on God before you make such a statement. I think the belief that God makes people suffer indescribable pain simply because they never heard his word is silly. A scare tactic used by firebrand preachers who dont' really have an argument to use.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

There is a reason? Then tell me the reason, and then tell me how an omnipotent and omniscient god couldn't chose another alternative to suffering, one which is infinitely better, and that still yields the same results.

Do so now.

I owe you nothing, Rust. Pehaps it is far beyond you to consider that God (being omnipotent/omniscient) can find no better way to deal with those that have rejected his truth. If you cant accept the answer, i have nothing for you. I am sorry. Perhaps you can take it up with him and ask if you can be God. He knows you are not better than He, therefore he will not listen.

I think the apostles said it best to the Jews in the first part of Acts: "We cannot help but preach the things we have heard" or something akin.

The reason for Hell was never for man. Get this, Rust. It was only for the followers and Lucifer from the insurrection in heaven. It was solely designed for him and his followers. They had sinned.

But man later on sinned. God cannot allow sin to cohabitate with him, therefore the only other place to go is the place where sin is supposed to be- Hell. Jesus' sacrifice pays for that sin, so that we can go to heaven--because we have paid God back for what wrongs we did with the sacrifice of the One who did nothing wrong.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

MasterPython, I have given this answer many times, straight from the Bible.

Romans 1:20-21 - "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Even those who do not know the Scriptures are without excuse because, all around them, they can see ample evidence of the eternal power and deity of God. This should cause them to seek God.

~ http://tinyurl.com/d4juq

So, they had their own religion, therefore they couldn't go to hell, by your definition. No argument, simple as that. Bam.

quote:I never did get the "you have to pay for your ancestors' sins" thing. Is it because we're incarnations of our ancestors, or what?

You don't get it? It's really simple. Let me explain it to you. History is all about terror, rape, murder, suffering, agony 'n' shit. That's why to date, like some 6000 years later or so, everyone hates Jews and wants them dead. Everyone hates everyone, cause everyone was a shithead in the past.

It's not a thing of the past though, it's a thing of the future. We will sin because our ancestor's sin. And we will be punished by our own children, for our sin, and they by theirs and so on. It's what they call a spiral of violence. Once you get it going, it ain't ever going to stop.

Good thing we have it, cause it enhances Human progress. Jews are like fuel. When you floor the gaspedal, the car runs faster and you're burning 30 Jews a mile. Seen as how by your beliefs, everyone was Jewish at a point in Human history, everyone burns.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:



You would do well to read some of my above posts to see my view on God before you make such a statement. I think the belief that God makes people suffer indescribable pain simply because they never heard his word is silly. A scare tactic used by firebrand preachers who dont' really have an argument to use.

If you believe that he is omnipotent and that he is omniscient, then my point stands, if you do not, then my argument doesn't apply to you to begin with, doesn't it? You're a mormon, so it shouldn't apply to you... so why are you replying to my argument again?

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-19-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

I owe you nothing, Rust. Pehaps it is far beyond you to consider that God (being omnipotent/omniscient) can find no better way to deal with those that have rejected his truth. If you cant accept the answer, i have nothing for you. I am sorry. Perhaps you can take it up with him and ask if you can be God. He knows you are not better than He, therefore he will not listen.

I can't accept that answer. No person with even the most basic reading comprehension or reasoning skills would.

Why? Because if he cannot do something, no matter what, then he is not omnipotent! He MUST be able to "find a better way to deal with those that have rejected his truth".

Is that too "far beyond you" to understand?

quote:

I think the apostles said it best to the Jews in the first part of Acts: "We cannot help but preach the things we have heard" or something akin.



Nice cop-out.

quote:

The reason for Hell was never for man. Get this, Rust. It was only for the followers and Lucifer from the insurrection in heaven. It was solely designed for him and his followers. They had sinned.

But man later on sinned. God cannot allow sin to cohabitate with him, therefore the only other place to go is the place where sin is supposed to be- Hell. Jesus' sacrifice pays for that sin, so that we can go to heaven--because we have paid God back for what wrongs we did with the sacrifice of the One who did nothing wrong.

Again, wrong. You obviously have a problem understanding what omnipotence entails. He MUST be able to allow sin to "cohabitate" with him, if he cannot, then he's not omnipotent. He can CHOOSE not to, that's of course would not refute omnipotence... but it WOULD refute benevolence.

So now choose. Which one is it? Not benevolent or not omnipotent?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

They did seek god. They only reached different ones.

Show me how nature is evidence of the Christian god, and only the Christian god, and you would have a point. If you cannot, then one can easilly conclude it's evidence of other gods (or no god at all) and hence the Native Americans were not in the wrong.



To Native Americans, it wouldn't be the "Christian" God. It would just be "God".

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

So the Native Americans that worshipped Native American gods are in heaven?

If they interpretted the world around them to be "created" by something greater than themselves, I would say it is a very good possibility.

All I know is what that verse says, and that God is fair and just.

He made provisions for EVERYONE to believe, and that means 'one way or another'. For those that never heard of Jesus or the Bible, they had different requirements to get into heaven.

This is a subject I do not really know much about, but I think the verse is easy to understand.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

napoleaon, for once we almost agree..

infact we all will go to 'hell'. the bible is quite clear that we will all lay down in sheol. which is 'limbo' or teh grave.

as to the christian idea of a danteques 'hell' (gehenna) , there some of you need to reread your bibles.



Ezekiel 31:15 - "Therefore no other trees by the waters are ever to tower proudly on high, lifting their tops above the thick foliage. No other trees so well-watered are ever to reach such a height; they are all destined for death, for the earth below, among mortal men, with those who go down to the pit.

This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day it was brought down to the grave I covered the deep springs with mourning for it; I held back its streams, and its abundant waters were restrained. Because of it I clothed Lebanon with gloom, and all the trees of the field withered away. 16 I made the nations tremble at the sound of its fall when I brought it down to the grave with those who go down to the pit. Then all the trees of Eden, the choicest and best of Lebanon, all the trees that were well-watered, were consoled in the earth below. 17 Those who lived in its shade, its allies among the nations, had also gone down to the grave with it, joining those killed by the sword."

PIT: In Hebrew Bo'r (cistern, well)

GRAVE: In Hebrew Sheol (hell, underworld)

*********************************************

A description of Sheol...

Sheol is below the surface of the earth:

Ezekiel 31:15 (see above)

Ezekiel 31:17 - "Those who lived in its shade, its allies among the nations, had also gone down to the grave with it, joining those killed by the sword."

Psalm 86:13 - "For great is your love toward me; you have delivered me from the depths of the grave."

Sheol is a place of dust:

Job 17:16 - "Will it go down to the gates of death ? Will we descend together into the dust?"

Sheol is a place of darkness:

Job 10:21 - "...before I go to the place of no return, to the land of gloom and deep shadow..."

Sheol is a place of silence:

Psalm 94:17 - "Unless the LORD had given me help, I would soon have dwelt in the silence of death."

Sheol is a place of forgetfulness:

Psalm 88:12 - "Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion ?"

*********************************************

I can find nothing that says Christians go to Sheol, or Gehenna. Do you have some scriptures I can reference ?

SHEOL IS THE PLACE WHERE THE RIGHTEOUS WENT UPON DEATH PRIOR TO THE ATONEMENT AND THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST.

As proof of this proposition one needs only to notice that such saints of God as was Samuel went to Sheol (See I Samuel 28). Moreover, saved men such as King David died and were gathered to their fathers. Jacob, we well remember, said he would go down to Sheol unto Joseph whom he at that time thought had been slain by wild animals. These statements and other facts in the Old Testament show that prior to the death of Christ the righteous went to Sheol.

I know Jesus went to Sheol...

Psalm 16:8-11 - "I have set Jehovah always before me: Because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: My flesh also shall dwell in safety. For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption. Thou wilt show me the path of life: In thy presence is fullness of joy;

In thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."

But here's my take on it, and why...

SINCE CHRIST'S DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION ONLY THE WICKED GO TO SHEOL; WHEREAS THE RIGHTEOUS UPON DEATH GO INTO THE IMMEDIATE PRESENCE OF CHRIST.

"These facts are shown by the statements relative to the rich man and Lazarus. Both lived before the death of Christ and upon death went to Hades, which is, in the Greek, a term equivalent to Sheol in the Hebrew.

But when Christ conquered the powers of the Unseen World, He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men. The righteous no longer go to Sheol at death but instead go into the immediate presence of Christ.

The Apostle Paul said that he was in a strait between two things, namely, to remain and help the Christians in their life-struggle and to depart and be with Christ, which he declared would be far better.

Philippians 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

Moreover, in II Corinthians 5:6, the same apostle declared that for the Christian to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. The spirit of the Christian goes immediately upon death in the presence of the Lord, whereas his body is laid in the tomb to await the resurrection morn.

~ http://www.biblicalresearch.info/page15.html

quote:But also realize that God sentences people to Hell for different punishments. Hitler is definitely going to get a far worse punishment than, lets say, the friendly, nice atheist down the lane. Both werent Christian, but the degree of their acts are far different.

I can say with all certainty that these people that die and never heard of God are going to Hell (unfortunately), but their sentences will be far lighter than evil people that did hear the word but rejected it.

What the holy hell are you talking about ?

Provide scriptures to support your assertions, please.

I am not trying to start a war with you, but what you just said has NO Biblical foundation, that I know of.

You have either grossly misunderstood something you read, or are parroting something a seriously mistaken Christian has said to you.

Please support.

quote:Originally posted by great_sage=heaven:

So, they had their own religion, therefore they couldn't go to hell, by your definition. No argument, simple as that. Bam.



Bam ? What're you, Emeril ? *LOL*

So, I guess you think you "got me there"...eh ?

Read it again.

*BOFF*

digi, you manage to confuse poetic ('For great is your love toward me; you have delivered me from the depths of the grave.' etc), prophetic and parable (rich man/lazurus).

failure to realise the difference leads to all sorts of misconceptions.





[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-19-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

What the holy hell are you talking about ?

Provide scriptures to support your assertions, please.

I am not trying to start a war with you, but what you just said has NO Biblical foundation, that I know of.

You have either grossly misunderstood something you read, or are parroting something a seriously mistaken Christian has said to you.

Please support.

That's what I was talking about when I said that "hell" was created by dante. The concept of hell as a firey place where you get pitchforked for all of eternity was a creation of The Divine Comedy by dante, and proliferated by firebrand preachers who have no real argument.

quote:Hitler is definitely going to get a far worse punishment than,

if i ever get to what Digi would call 'heaven'....i will expect to find Hitler there before me.

and Nero

and Caligula

and tony blair

and *insert evil bastard of choice here*

because

only a god who is capable of forgiving them

can forgive me

you

or anyone.

(yes i belong to the 'Allversöhnler" school of belief...can't think of the equivilant english term ...'all redemptionist' i 'pose)

I was introduced to the Christian god when I was 12. I didn't choose to be introduced, and the beliefs and everything were shoved in my face. I was a stubborn kid and I didn't agree with what I knew of the religion, so I didn't choose to practice Christianity or worship god. The only reason I believed in God before that was because my mom told me he was real, but I also believed in Santa for the same reason.

So am I going to a hell that I don't even believe in? That sure doesn't make sense.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

digi, you manage to confuse poetic ('For great is your love toward me; you have delivered me from the depths of the grave.' etc), prophetic and parable (rich man/lazurus).

failure to realise the difference leads to all sorts of misconceptions.



Well, how about you explain your view on the scriptures provided, instead of just pointing out how wrong you think I am ?

Not productive to the forum.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

...only a god who is capable of forgiving them can forgive me...

Provided they had asked for it, sure.

You no ask, you no receive.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Provided they had asked for it, sure.

You no ask, you no receive.



actually i believe god will forgive everyone. , wether they want it or not.

maybe i'll do a thread on it some time.

good night digi, this old man needs his bed .

and yes you're right i should explain myself better than i do.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



To Native Americans, it wouldn't be the "Christian" God. It would just be "God".

Gods actually. So? What is the answer to the question posed by the original poster? Would they go to hell for reaching other gods, gods which are not the Christian god?

If they do go to hell, then answer the question:

How is nature evidence of a Christian god, and a Christian god alone?

If it isn't, then "god is an asshole", to quote MasterPython. He is not benevolent.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-20-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Even those who do not know the Scriptures are without excuse because, all around them, they can see ample evidence of the eternal power and deity of God. This should cause them to seek God.

1.) But it is unreasonable to expect them to reach a belief in Jesus, which the Bible explicitly states is the only way to get to Heaven now.

2.) The problem is I see no evidence for God, none at all. No reason to believe. Science explains everything to my satisfaction, I've found many ideological problems with Christianity, and the whole concept of "faith" bothers me. Obviously, there is not "ample evidence" for God, and especially not for the Christian God and none other. God provides no clear indication of his presence; it is pretty unreasonable to expect us to then somehow "find" him.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Even those who do not know the Scriptures are without excuse because, all around them, they can see ample evidence of the eternal power and deity of God. This should cause them to seek God.

1.) But it is unreasonable to expect them to reach a belief in Jesus, which the Bible explicitly states is the only way to get to Heaven now.

2.) The problem is I see no evidence for God, none at all. No reason to believe. Science explains everything to my satisfaction, I've found many ideological problems with Christianity, and the whole concept of "faith" bothers me. Obviously, there is not "ample evidence" for God, and especially not for the Christian God and none other. God provides no clear indication of his presence; it is pretty unreasonable to expect us to then somehow "find" him.



No diety provides any tangible evidence for their presence. That's not God's style. If there were tangible evidence, then there would be no faith, and without faith, what's the point in religion?

The only evidence that you can find is a feeling within oneself that God really does exist. That's enough for me, and if it's not enough for you, fine. Are you going to "hell", no. God's not going to let a deamon fork you in the ass for milenia simply because you didn't believe in him. He won't reward you, but the only way you're gonna be punished is if you are a bad person and are unrepentant.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

That's not God's style.

and you know god's style? .. cool, ur almost jesus

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

No diety provides any tangible evidence for their presence. That's not God's style. If there were tangible evidence, then there would be no faith, and without faith, what's the point in religion?

I hear this all the time. God does not want to prove to us his existence, because in doing so, it won't give people the free will to decide whether or not to believe in him.

Good point, except that in those times there were prophets who supposedly had talked with Him or seen Him or had some form of direct encounter with Him.

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

I hear this all the time. God does not want to prove to us his existence, because in doing so, it won't give people the free will to decide whether or not to believe in him.

Good point, except that in those times there were prophets who supposedly had talked with Him or seen Him or had some form of direct encounter with Him.



you're forgetting the 'Balaam Principle" which basically means that even if god did prove himself, by the day after we'd be rationalising him away.

oh yeah...wouldn't they go to limbo?

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

I hear this all the time. God does not want to prove to us his existence, because in doing so, it won't give people the free will to decide whether or not to believe in him.

Good point, except that in those times there were prophets who supposedly had talked with Him or seen Him or had some form of direct encounter with Him.





And then you have the ability to put faith in said prophets, or to ignore them as well. So, something like 20-30 people in the history of the world have lost the chance to not believe in God.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:



And then you have the ability to put faith in said prophets, or to ignore them as well. So, something like 20-30 people in the history of the world have lost the chance to not believe in God.

My point is if God is so intent in giving us the free will on whether or not to have faith in him, why does He seem to be unable to respect the free will of Moses, Abraham, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, etc?

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



actually i believe god will forgive everyone. , wether they want it or not.

maybe i'll do a thread on it some time.

good night digi, this old man needs his bed .

and yes you're right i should explain myself better than i do.



Matthew 7:8 - "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

The following verses seem to indicate that one must believe and follow God in order to receive ultimate forgiveness, which Christians call "salvation".

John 1:11 - "He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

1 John 2:4 - "Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness."

1 John 1:8-10 - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."

IF WE CONFESS, WE RECEIVE. This is what I said...no ask, no receive.

"When John says that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice 'not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world,' this does not mean that God is going to forgive everyone. It does mean that the death of Christ was necessary for anyone to be forgiven, and sufficient for everyone to be forgiven, whoever they are. The offer of forgiveness through Christ is not limited to any one group of people. It is available to everyone. But we have to accept the offer. Only those who put their trust in Jesus's death for them, and commit themselves to him, are forgiven." http://www.bibletoday.co.uk/onejohn2.htm

Do you have any scripture that says God will forgive everyone ? Or are you taking this idealogy from another source ? If so, where ?

I am curious as to how you came to your conclusions.

Thanks !

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

MasterPython, I have given this answer many times, straight from the Bible.

Romans 1:20-21 - "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Even those who do not know the Scriptures are without excuse because, all around them, they can see ample evidence of the eternal power and deity of God. This should cause them to seek God.

~ http://tinyurl.com/d4juq

Story written by a Crazed Hamster:

Once upon a time there was a good Indian boy named Jack. Jack loved nature, Jack loved animals, etc. Jack saw that the world was so marvelous that it had to have been created. One day Jack sat under a tree wondering about the awesomeness of the nature that surrounded him. Suddenly it struck him. A person had to have created this wonderful world. Who? Hmmm, he must be a real nice guy, a real sweet guy to have done this wonderful stuff for little old Jack and his tribe. Jack decided to go back to his tribe and tell them all about his discovery. His tribe came to the same realization as Jack had, that there must be a big someone who had created the world. They named him the Great White Spirit in the Sky. Why white? Well, they liked white, plus the clouds (where the Great Spirit lived) were white. They prayed to the GWS, they worshipped the GWS, they were thankful to the GWS, etc. They even realized and recognized that they needed to respect and take care of the things that the GWS had created, namely NATURE and the world around them. They also decided that since the GWS was such a great good person that all good things came from the GWS and all bad things came from the BUSH http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) (Big Ugly Spirit of Horseshit). The Indians were a happy tribe.

One day Jack was dancing happily by the seashore with his sister when they saw a great big piece of wood far off in the distance. The piece of wood came closer and closer, finally it washed up on shore and a whole bunch of white men jumped out. Jack was in awe of these white men. They were the hippest, coolest looking people he had ever seen in his life. They had these awesome pointy beards, big metal weapons and armor, and lots of these big weird-looking sticks. Jack walked up to them and said hi in Indian. One of the white men pulled out a great big book with a cross on the front. He shoved it in front of Jack’s face and made funny motions, like he was trying to tell Jack to kiss the book.

Jack didn’t want to kiss the book, so an old man with a funny shaped stick shot him dead. Then they all took turns raping his sister. After they were done with her, they shot her too. Then they marched to the village, shot all the men, raped the women and children, shot the women, and put the children to work in the plantations/gold mines/circuses, etc. Then they took gunpowder and axes, and began to level the forests, pollute the rivers, shoot all the animals, and build New York.

After Jack got shot, he went flying through the sky. He was rather happy and sad, he knew he would finally meet the GWS, but he was sad that all the Indians had to get killed. But, he figured that he would talk to the GWS and find out why it all had happened.

Jack came to a long hall, at the end of the hall was an old man with a flowing white beard, he looked very nice and loving. Behind the old man was a large gate, inside that gate he could see lots of white people having lots of fun, and really enjoying themselves. Jack wanted to go join the fun. So he walked up to the old man and asked if he could go inside. The old man gave him a kind and loving glance, “No, you can’t go in.” “Well, why not?” Jack asked.

“You can’t.”

“Who are you?”

“I’m God, I created Heaven, Earth, and everything on earth.”

“So, you’re the GWS.”

“Uh, no. I-am-God.

“What’s the difference?”

“You have to believe in ME, in order to get to go to that park in there.”

“But, I believed in the GWS. I believed that he made the Earth, and I worshipped him. So aren’t you the same thing?”

“Nope. You got the name wrong. My name is God. Never met the GWS. Don’t know who he is. Can’t come in.”

“Oh.”

“Oh, by the way, another reason you can’t go into this place.”

“What?”

“Well, do you see that guy over there with the beard and the robes?”

“Yeah.”

“Well, he’s my son.”

“That’s nice. Can I go in now?”

“Nope. You didn’t believe in that guy when you were on Earth.”

”I don’t even know who he is.”

“My point exactly. You can’t go in.”

“But if I never met that guy, never heard of him before, never even knew he existed, how is that MY fault?”

“Uhhhh…don’t know, don’t care.”

Just at that moment, a white man with a pointy white beard came up to the gate. He had an arrow in his chest. God got up hurriedly, He placed His hand on the man’s chest, the arrow disappeared and the nasty-looking wound closed. God snapped His fingers, and the white man was instantly clothed in flowing white garments. God then opened the gate and let the white man into Heaven.

“How can you do that?” Jack yelled out.

“Do what?”

“Let that man in. He killed me, raped and killed my sister, and slaughtered my entire tribe. You can’t let that man in. He’s evil.”

“Uhhh, ….yeah I can let him in. He believed that I have a son.”

“And that lets him go into there?”

“Yep, it sure does.”

“And I can’t go into Heaven because I never heard about your son?”

“Yep.”

“But I worshiped the GWS, who I thought was you. I was a good guy on earth. I never killed anyone, I never destroyed the world, I even asked the GWS for forgiveness every time I killed an animal. Doesn’t that count for something?”

“Yeah, it means you were a good guy. Now, go to Hell. I’ve managed to get you an appointment with Satan, he’s the bad guy, and he’ll take you on a tour of your new residence before sending you to some of his demons to be tortured for the rest of eternity. Consider that merciful. Bye.”

Yeah, I know it's long, but Oh well.

I'm sorry, Digital Saviour, your first comment, that little quote from Romans or wherever. That was about the most arrogant and nasty thing you could possible fucking say. Seriously, where do you get off being part of a religion that teaches people to love and forgive? How the Hell could the Indians possibly know about God? They've never seen the scriptures. If they dont know any alternative, are they sinners for worshipping their "heathen" gods?

Fuck, seriously dude, rethink your values. Where the Hell do I see God's invisble attribues? THEY'RE INVISIBLE. Seriously, in the way a Chistian might say "God created the universe" I might say the Big Bang created the universe. If the big bang theory, or something else thats as plausible (or not as plausible?) is all someone knows, can you blame them for not being part of your religion.

Your comment is so out of taste it isnt funny. I cant believe it.

EDIT: Not being slack to you, you understand. I just found that that comment is really unfair, and basically means anyone who is ignorant enough to not understand the world around them in any way more than its base appearance is going to Hell.

[This message has been edited by Garfunkel (edited 07-23-2005).]

quote:I'm sorry, Digital Saviour, your first comment, that little quote from Romans or wherever. That was about the most arrogant and nasty thing you could possible fucking say. Seriously, where do you get off being part of a religion that teaches people to love and forgive? How the Hell could the Indians possibly know about God? They've never seen the scriptures. If they dont know any alternative, are they sinners for worshipping their "heathen" gods?

Fuck, seriously dude, rethink your values.

i think you'll find that you have misunderstood what she was trying to say. while i don't want to speakl for her (her faith is not mine) i am sure she'll come along and clarify.

she is neither arrogant or nasty !

unlike me...

Sorry, new to this particular forum, didnt realise she was a she, having never read a post by her in the past.

I dont believe she is arrogant or nasty, I'm basing my opinions on like 6 lines of text she wrote.

You could be write, I may have misunderstood. If so, if someone could please clarify, and I'd happily apologise if there was some sort of misunderstanding.

quote:Originally posted by Garfunkel:

I dont believe she is arrogant or nasty

I do, and so will you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)