For those of you who dont' know me, I am mormon. Lots of people have many misconceptions about mormons, so I thought I would open up a topic where anyone on this forum can ask me anything about my religion and I will do my best to answer your questions.

Do not worry about offending me, it's fairly difficult to do that.

Ask away

Is it true that mormons are a bastard religion?

remind me please which one of the various 'mormon' churches you belong to?

*hopes you say 'bickertonite' cos i've never spoken to one before*

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

remind me please which one of the various 'mormon' churches you belong to?

*hopes you say 'bickertonite' cos i've never spoken to one before*

I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints. That is by far the most populated "mormon" sect. Most other "mormon" sects are extremist groups who believe in polygamy or blood atonement, or other things that the main church shuns. We do not associate with these groups, and regard them as most christian churches regard the folks who bomb abortion clinics and such.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Is it true that mormons are a bastard religion?

I dont even know what that's supposed to mean.

Did you just put the word "bastard" in there because you like to swear or did you have a point?

If such a limited amount of people are going to heaven, why do you go door to door?

Do you think Jesus practiced alchemy?

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

Most other "mormon" sects are extremist groups who believe in polygamy or blood atonement, or other things that the main church shuns. We do not associate with these groups, and regard them as most christian churches regard the folks who bomb abortion clinics and such.

quote:There are many "fire and brimstone" judgemental branches of christianity. I know becasue I used to belong to one. However not all of christianity acts this way. Many truly do their best to live the way the savior did.

hmmm....somehow i'm having problems reconciling those two statements.....

i'm sure the other 'mormon' sects hold you in such high esteem too.

quote:Originally posted by Magnus_Ungermax:

If such a limited amount of people are going to heaven, why do you go door to door?

That's the Jehova's witnesses, we dont put a limit on the number of people who can go to Heaven.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

hmmm....somehow i'm having problems reconciling those two statements.....

i'm sure the other 'mormon' sects hold you in such high esteem too.

By "we do not associate with these groups" I meant just that, we do not associate ourselves with those groups. A regular mormon won't worship with them, doesn't say that he is part of that group, and we don't consider it possible to be part of the regular church and the smaller churches. However the missionaries will still meet with these people, we can still be friends with them, just as we can with other christians, but we do not hold meetings with them as equal doctrines. I appologise if I sounded too harsh earlier.

quote:Originally posted by godofjacob:

Do you think Jesus practiced alchemy?

I'm not sure I understand the significance of your question, so until you clairify it, I shall chose to ignore it.

if we accept that JS was a prophet (and i think he was) then how come the church gave up the revelation of polgamy for political gain?

either it was god given and thus unchanging and valid for all eternity (in which case the LDS church is a church based on a disregard for god's words)

or it was a man made false revelation , a lie ...which raises doubts about JS.



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

if we accept that JS was a prophet (and i think he was) then how come the church gave up the revelation of polgamy for political gain?

either it was god given and thus unchanging and valid for all eternity (in which case the LDS church is a church based on a disregard for god's words)

or it was a man made false revelation , a lie ...which raises doubts about JS.



The giving up of polygamy was as much for personal survival as it was for gain. The government was threatening to take mormon temples and to put members in jail if the practice was not discontinued. Therefore it was. God doesn't want his church to fade into nothingness simply because of one non-central doctrine.

I do not understand how you can believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not be a member of the church. Please clairify this.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

I dont even know what that's supposed to mean.

Did you just put the word "bastard" in there because you like to swear or did you have a point?

A point to show you the futility and stupidity of mormonism. Sorry.

A null offshoot of Christianity started by a madman hallucinating in the woods.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

A point to show you the futility and stupidity of mormonism. Sorry.

A null offshoot of Christianity started by a madman hallucinating in the woods.

A point? I don't remember seeing a point. If you're going to make a "point" then try using logic, or at the very least some wit, don't just put a swear word in there like an 8 year old boy who just learned the word. That's both uncool and pointless.

A madman hallucinating in the woods, that's certainly your opinion, one I disagree with.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

For those of you who dont' know me, I am mormon. Lots of people have many misconceptions about mormons, so I thought I would open up a topic where anyone on this forum can ask me anything about my religion and I will do my best to answer your questions.

Do not worry about offending me, it's fairly difficult to do that.

Ask away

Did jesus use Orbitally rearanged and monoatomic elements to learn his abilitys, from what Ive read Jesus has used superconductors, or precious metals in a liquid state, to acheive his mental state. Along with other gods, Preparing them is called alchemy. The study and practice of making ORMUS or ORMES. I want some other thoughts upon this subject.



[This message has been edited by godofjacob (edited 07-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by godofjacob:

Did jesus use Orbitally rearanged and monotomic elements to learn his abilitys, from what Ive read Jesus has used superconductors, or precious metals in a liquid state, to acheive his mental state. Along with other gods, Preparing them is called alchemy. The study and practice of making ORMUS or ORMES. I want some other thoughts upon this subject.

I'll just open my bible to the section on "monoatomic elements" and I'll see what it says...

quote:The giving up of polygamy was as much for personal survival as it was for gain. The government was threatening to take mormon temples and to put members in jail if the practice was not discontinued

not hang them? not torture and rape them ? not feed them to the lions?? not sell them into slavery?

just imprison them and take away their buildings...

we don't see "such faith in Isreal" these days ...[/sarcasm (but good natured sarcasm)]



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-18-2005).]

quote:A null offshoot of Christianity started by a madman hallucinating in the woods.

*tries hard to think of a christian denomination that was NOT founded by a mad man or woman hallucinating somewhere*

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

not hang them? not torture and rape them ? not feed them to the lions?? not sell them into slavery?

just imprison them and take away their buildings...

we don't see "such faith in Isreal" these days ...[/sarcasm (but good natured sarcasm)]





The things you were just saying happened to those people because they wouldn't renounce their entire religion, not one tiny little doctrine of their faith.

As far as I'm concerned, the prophet of the time decided that the practice was not worth the temples and imprisonment of the membership, therefore God decided that it wasn't worth it.

quote:one tiny little doctrine of their faith.

if i remember correctly wasn't it JS who said that if the doctrine of Polygamy is wrong then the whole of the faith is wrong? or words to that effect...

might have been BY . it's been a while since i studied the faith.

oh btw didn't Jesus say something about being faithful in small things?

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

if i remember correctly wasn't it JS who said that if the doctrine of Polygamy is wrong then the whole of the faith is wrong? or words to that effect...

might have been BY . it's been a while since i studied the faith.

oh btw didn't Jesus say something about being faithful in small things?

If you're reading the journal of discourses, possibly, but it was never THAT important a tennant of the faith.

I can't even find the journal of discourses in my church book store. It's not part of the doctrine of the church.

And to be faithful in the small things doesn't mean to overlook the big picture because of small details, it means to be faithful in all your decision making, big and small. To think of God always.

If you can convert a few new people, if you can save a few more souls, simply because you drop one unimportant church doctrine, could it not be a worthy trade? The leaders of the church, and I believe God, thought so.

[This message has been edited by HomerJay603 (edited 07-18-2005).]

quote:If you can convert a few new people, if you can save a few more souls, simply because you drop one unimportant church doctrine, could it not be a worthy trade?

so now you're saying dropping the doctrine was infact a bit of theological spin doctoring?

i thought it was to avoid persecution...

you're beginning to sound like the Joho's and their "god has given us 'clearer light' " explanations, that they come out with every few years.



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-18-2005).]

Mormons don't believe in hell?

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

so now you're saying dropping the doctrine was infact a bit of theological spin doctoring?

i thought it was to avoid persecution...

you're beginning to sound like the Joho's and their "god has given us 'clearer light' " explanations, that they come out with every few years.



I'm saying that I'm not 100% sure the exact reason for the dropping of the polygamy doctrine. I am simply putting forth suggestions as to why it was dropped. I believe in continuing revelation. I believe that God can speak to us through his prophets and apostles here on earth.

As for the johos... I dont know enough about them to judge their religion acurately.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:



A madman hallucinating in the woods, that's certainly your opinion, one I disagree with.

Your founder thought he saw an angel dig a book out of the ground. How is that NOT hallucinating?

I bet you also believe blacks are the descendants of those that didnt side with God after the Lucifer insurrection?

quote:I believe in continuing revelation.

that's the 'clearer light' or 'new light' argument...

so my question

was BY a prophet or not?

was what he said on the 28.october 1865 right?

was god speaking through him or was it just human thought?

was John Taylor a prophet? was god speaking

through him?



oh btw your contention quote:one tiny little doctrine of their faith is wrong.

john Taylor said it was ' as much a part of our religion as Faith, Repentence and baptism'

(i just translated that out of german so the exact words may be a little different but i'm a qualified translator so it should be near enough)

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-18-2005).]

ArgonPlasma2000: Your founder thought he saw an angel dig a book out of the ground. How is that NOT hallucinating?

You just gotta have faith, man. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:ArgonPlasma2000: Your founder thought he saw an angel dig a book out of the ground. How is that NOT hallucinating?

compared to the 'sanity' of john seeing the revelation on patmos? to Luther throwing ink pots at the devil??!

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

compared to the 'sanity' of john seeing the revelation on patmos? to Luther throwing ink pots at the devil??!

God gave the vision to John. I dont remember God giving it to Smith. And im not quite sure what your talking about Luther throwing shit at Satan, or what that would have to do starting a denomination/religion.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

ArgonPlasma2000: Your founder thought he saw an angel dig a book out of the ground. How is that NOT hallucinating?

You just gotta have faith, man. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

God gave the vision to John. I dont remember God giving it to Smith. And im not quite sure what your talking about Luther throwing shit at Satan, or what that would have to do starting a denomination/religion.

what that has to do with starting a denomination??

please tell me you're joking

it has to do with you being able to read the bible in your mother tongue, to do with justification by faith and a little incident called the Reformation.

if you're a member of a non catholic church then the chances are good that it has its roots in the reformation (most do).

hey Homerjay, you still there ?

come on , cos polygamy was a fairly easy question ...i've got some really good ones i want you to answer.

loads of questions about the Temple Endowment Ritual (you know Garden Room type stuff)

you know, more kinda serious stuff like why has the Endowment Ritual been changed so much?

why you still have the Tokens of Priesthood but not the Penalties?

why were the "5 points of Fellowship" deleted?

and i've got some doctrinal questions as well for you.



hurry back.

i'm dying to have someone explain mormonism to me.

ps. before you ask, NO i have never been a mormon or disfellowshipped.

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-19-2005).]

Do you know that JS was a conman? He has 'gold plates' in his hat that only he could see and when tested refused to make an exact copy of the already done transcripts and make up another book with mostly the same stuff in it only written slightly differently, Come on isn’t that just a little suspicious to you?

quote:Originally posted by Silly Stick:



Do you know that JS was a conman? He has 'gold plates' in his hat that only he could see and when tested refused to make an exact copy of the already done transcripts and make up another book with mostly the same stuff in it only written slightly differently, Come on isn’t that just a little suspicious to you?

to anyone who knows their bible the character of JS is more evidence for his being a prophet /man of god than a disqualification.

David was a murderer, adultery and probably a lousy father...

Noah was an alcoholic who slept with his own daughters (oh yeah..suuuure he was too far gone to know *sniggers*)

Abraham was a 'pimp'

Jonah had the back bone of an eel

the list goes on.



i don't think i've ever met a mormon who has tried to defend Js in anyway. they openly admit he was a crook, con man and a thief.

god chooses his 'mouth pieces ' by his own criteria.



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-19-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

to anyone who knows their bible the character of JS is more evidence for his being a prophet /man t of god than a disqualification.

David was a murderer, adultery and probably a lousy father...

Noah was an alcoholic who slept with his own daughters (oh yeah..suuuure he was too far gonna to know *sniggers*)

Abraham was a 'pimp'

Jonah had the back bone of an eel

the list goes on.



i don't think i've ever met a mormon who has tried to defend Js in anyway. they openly admit he was a crook, con man and a thief.

god chooses his 'mouth pieces ' by his own criteria.



OK, but not only does he have a shady background, but also the way he transcribes the plates with a hat and stuff is really not convincing enough for me, plus the madness of the story about God and becoming a god of your own planet is nutz.

Mormonism eh? Just wondering if you were brought up as a mormon or did you choose to follow the cult yourself.(serious question)

Im sorry I love to ask doctrinal questions and I could not hold them in for any longer:

1. Why do the LDS teach that Jesus is not God when it says in the Bible and BoM that they are One?

2.Why do the LDS teach that there are three kingdoms of heaven from 1 cor 15:40? when it is making the distinction between Celetrial, or heaven, and terrestrial, the earth.

3.I have seen no word in the dictionary or Bible that mentions "telestrial".

4. Why do the LDS teach that works are essential for salvation? note: eph 2:8, rom 3:28, mosiah 3:17, are not good works are the result, not the basis for the relationship with God?

5. If the LDS god had a father god of him and a father god of the father god etc then who is the first father god and how did he come about?

6. Why are the LDS bothering with geneologies if God has made a plan with us in faith, as well us noting: Titus 3:9 "avoid genealogies...for they are unprofitable and vain (note also 1 tim 1:4) please show me one serious, understanderble verse in the Book ofMormon or Bible of BAptism for the dead.

7. Why do you teach the father who is "the god" has a physical body as tangible as man's (d&c 30:22) when the Bible teaches the father is invisible and a spirit? note: john 4:24, luke 24:39, God is not a man: numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9

8. Why are there many differences with the BOM and the LDS teachings?

If the Book of Mormon is the "most correct book of any on earth" (History of the Church, vol. 4:461), then why does it not contain essential Mormon doctrines such as...

Church organization

Plurality of Gods

Plurality of wives doctrine

Word of Wisdom

God is an exalted man

Celestial marriage

Men may become Gods

Three degrees of glory

Baptism for the dead

Eternal progression

The Aaronic Priesthood

Melchizedek Priesthood

9. It says at the front of every book of mormon where JS associates gave a testomony that: "and the honor be to the Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost which is ONE God"?

Also note: Alma 11:38 "Now Zeezrom saith unto him: is the Son of God the very eternal father? 39 and Amulek said unto Hihm: Yes He is the very eternal father of heaven and earth"

Alma11:44 "...christ the Son , and God the The Father, and the holy spirit are ONE eternal GOD"

10. please explain the racism and polygamy teachings of the PROPHET Brigham Young that has changed and Deut. 18:22, "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." If someone makes a false prophecy, and they have claimed to be a prophet of God, then they are false prophets and are not to be listened to.

kackketch, I do have a life you know, and other stuff to do. I think this will probibly be my final posting for the night, as my fiancee and I are going to watch a movie.

I'll be the first one to tell you that I really dont have all the answers.

Of polygamy: My question to you is this: Say you're God, and your church is under attack. Do you let the whole church fade into the background of history or do you give up polygamy?

I dont know much about the temple endowment ritual, I'm not endowed, and I didn't really care to ask questions. Ask me next january.

I don't know why they removed the penalties of the priesthood, perhaps after the church got more into the mainstream they became unnessecary. The same with the 5 points of fellowship.

Church doctrinal history is not quite as important as what the church teaches NOW. There are very few denominations of christianity, or any religion for that matter that do not have a somewhat checkered past. Look at the catholics if you don't believe me. If you can find something genuinely bad that the church has done in the past I'd like to hear it, but simply changing a doctrine here and there from time to time is what has kept mine, and most other churches alive. Remember that the church started over 100 years ago, and getting the message to people then was very different than it is today.

enjoy the movie http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) perhaps we can continue this debate tomorrow?

and you haven't answered my question about BY /JT...

Vice, i think he said once before he came to LDS via his fiancee (homer, sorry if i've got you mixed up with someone else)

secondly, i have to admit i'm impressed. from your answers to other topics i wouldn't have thought you had that sort of depth of knowledge.

or did you just copy it?

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-19-2005).]

In response to the response Originally posted by vice:

a) I am a convert. I was baptised the 11th of december last year.

1)One in purpose, not one of being.

2)It says there shall be 3 degrees of glory, one akin to the sun, moon, stars.

3)It's in the Doctrines and Covenants, which we consider to be scripture. The bible and the book of mormon are ancient record, and do not contain all the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

4)If you truly believe in God and have a good relationship with him then you will act like it. However good a relationship you think you have with God, you dont really have that good of one if you dont act like it now do you?

5)Dunno, haven't read the teachings of Joseph Smith, I'll have to get back to you on that.

6) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

7)Joseph Smith saw God as a being with a perfect, immortal body. That is why we believe that.

8)As said before the bible and the book of mormon are not all the scripture that God has given us.

9)Again, one in purpose, not in body.

10) Dunno, haven't read much on brigham young. I dont have all the answers.

quote:If you can find something genuinely bad that the church has done in the past I'd like to hear it

now that is an easy one!

look up "Mountain Meadows"

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

Vice, i think he said once before he came to LDS via his fiancee (homer, sorry if i've got you mixed up with someone else)

secondly, i have to admit i'm impressed. from your answers to other topics i wouldn't have thought you had that sort of depth of knowledge.

or did you just copy it?



It is an acculmination of research for questions towards Mormons that I had discussions. It is from looking through their BOM + Doctrine and covenants which they gave me as well as questions from web sites. And of course from the unsatisfactory answers they gave me that I looked into. It was over a period of 3 months Q & A. How long have you studied them?

Vice, about 2 years (some 10 years ago) i think...my wife was a mormon.. i had the opportunity to debate with some of the best they had in europe at that time. after all that i decided not to convert.

anyway , its bed time for this old git (2AM).



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-19-2005).]

jackketch: Noah was an alcoholic who slept with his own daughters (oh yeah..suuuure he was too far gonna to know *sniggers*)

I think you're confusing Noah with Lot there. Both of them are notable for getting drunk, but it was Lot who slept with his daughters.

i've got a good question: In revalation 22:18,19 mostly 18, it says dont add to the bible, or take away. Isn't the book of mormon a addition/updated bible?

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

In response to the response Originally posted by vice:

a) I am a convert. I was baptised the 11th of december last year.[quote]

[quote]1)One in purpose, not one of being.

Have you seen the famous John 1:1? note verse 14.

quote:2)It says there shall be 3 degrees of glory, one akin to the sun, moon, stars.

Paul is talkin of the differences of splendor sun moon stars birds fish animals to that of the differece of the ressurected body to the physical therefor answering the question issued in verse 35

quote:3)It's in the Doctrines and Covenants, which we consider to be scripture. The bible and the book of mormon are ancient record, and do not contain all the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Then it is unbiblical!! man-made!!

quote:4)If you truly believe in God and have a good relationship with him then you will act like it. However good a relationship you think you have with God, you dont really have that good of one if you dont act like it now do you?

I dont understand but ill answer, yet i agree a bit. When you become a christian you change, you become a new person, and your good works are what you do because it is you and not a device to make God happy. read my verses and understand that you are saved by faith.

If you believe good works are what makes salvation then have you done enough? How much is needed? if it is good works that saves, what use is there for jesus?

quote:5)Dunno, haven't read the teachings of Joseph Smith, I'll have to get back to you on that.

quote:6) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

If God wanted us to practice baptism for the dead (a serious requirement to get to the KoG) then why is this the only in this verse (in the third person) with no other refences? why aren't there any commands dealing with this kind of baptism? (did you know normal baptism is not nessersary too?)

The LDS have a man made doctrine. if the BOM is "the fullness of the everlasting Gospel" (look this up in D&C on the LDS website www.lds.org) (http://www.lds.org)) why is it not taught any where in the BOM?

quote:7)Joseph Smith saw God as a being with a perfect, immortal body. That is why we believe that.

It is unbiblical read john 4:24

quote:8)As said before the bible and the book of mormon are not all the scripture that God has given us.

The bible is all we need. Jesus is all we need. Note question 4.

quote:9)Again, one in purpose, not in body.[b]

a well as reading you must UNDERSTAND.

Does it say one in purpose here or one God:

Alma 11:44 "...christ the Son , and God the The Father, and the holy spirit are ONE eternal GOD"

quote:[b]10) Dunno, haven't read much on brigham young. I dont have all the answers.

You should. he seems a naughty boy.

Nobody has all the answers. but start by comparing LDS and D&C teachings with the bible.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

jackketch: Noah was an alcoholic who slept with his own daughters (oh yeah..suuuure he was too far gonna to know *sniggers*)

I think you're confusing Noah with Lot there. Both of them are notable for getting drunk, but it was Lot who slept with his daughters.

yes of course i did mean Lot. i plead lateness of hour and lack of coffee. thank you for pointing that out.

quote:Originally posted by john_deer:

i've got a good question: In revalation 22:18,19 mostly 18, it says dont add to the bible, or take away. Isn't the book of mormon a addition/updated bible?

no it doesn't!

Note: Mormons see jehovah as the name of Jesus and elohim the name of God, yet as a Christian I am talking of Jehovah,(the LORD) as the name of God and Elohim translated as God.

These should all be in the KJV.

JESUS IS GOD

The Jesus of the Bible is prayed to (Acts 7:55-60, 1 Cor 1:1-2)

The Jesus of the Bible is worshiped (Matt 1:23, 2:2+11, 14:33, 28:9, John 9:35-38, Heb 1:6)

The Jesus of the Bible is called God (John 20:28, Heb 1:8)

“I even I am the Lord (YHWH); and there is no savoir besides Me” Isaiah 43:11

Is Jesus not the savoir or an angel beside God or is He GOD?

“Thus says the Lord, your redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by myself, and spreading out the Earth all alone” Isaiah 44:24

Col 1:6-17 says JC made all things. IS this a contradiction or is Jesus Jehovah, of about the Trinity?

“Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is none else: I am God and there is none else like me”

This says there are no other like God… anywhere. So you are not going to be a god, there is only one God in all existence, and there always has been.

“And Jesus said to him, “why do you call me good? No one is good except god alone” Mark 10:18

Was JC good or not?

“Then God said, “let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness…” Genesis 1:26. “So God created man in His Own image, in the image of God created He Him...” 1:27

Plurality of GOD?

“Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of Heaven.”

Is this saying there is two LORDS, two Jehovahs?

Isaiah 42:8 reads “I am the Lord, that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another…”

In Heb 1:3 Jesus has the same glory as God, that must mean that Jesus is God.

NO MORE SCRIPTURE

2 Tim 3:15-17. No need for more revelation, fullness of the scripture.

PREEXISTANCE

Read Genesis 2:7 as well as Zechariah 12:1 “the burden of the word of the Lord of Israel, saith the Lord, which strecheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the SPIRIT of man within him.

His spirit was formed within him at his creation.

SALVATION BY GRACE NOT WORKS

Romans 3:20, 28 “because of the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the law comes knowledge of sin… 28For we maintain that a man is justified by fath apart from the works of the law.”

Note: Ephes 2:8-9 and Gal 2:16

TETRAGRAMMATON

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragramaton

^^^ Vice, are you married to Digi, by any chance?:P

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-19-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

A point to show you the futility and stupidity of mormonism. Sorry.

A null offshoot of Christianity started by a madman hallucinating in the woods.

Do you like atheist's talking about Christianity this way ?

And they call ME judgmental....

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

^^^ Vice, are you married to Digi, by any chance?:P



*smacks Jack in the mouth with a large trout*

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

^^^ Vice, are you married to Digi, by any chance?:P



Heh.

Talking of DS, aren't you up a bit late?

quote:Posted by Homerjay:

My question to you is this: Say you're God, and your church is under attack. Do you let the whole church fade into the background of history or do you give up polygamy?

So....

God is not omniscient ?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

*********************************************

GOD IS OMNISCIENT !!!!!

Psalm 147:4,5 - "He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite."

Acts 15:18 - "Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

Psalm 33:13 - "The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men."

II Kings 13:19 - "And the man of God was wroth with him, and said, Thou shouldest have smitten five or six times; then hadst thou smitten Syria till thou hadst consumed it: whereas now thou shalt smite Syria but thrice."

Jeremiah 38:17-20 - "Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of hosts, the God of Israel; If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon's princes, then shall this city be given into the hand of the Chaldeans, and they shall burn it with fire, and thou shalt not escape out of their hand. And Zedekiah the king said unto Jeremiah, I am afraid of the Jews that are fallen to the Chaldeans, lest they deliver me into their hand, and they mock me. But Jeremiah said, They shall not deliver thee. Obey, I beseech thee, the voice of the Lord, which I speak unto thee: so it shall be will unto thee, and thy soul shall live."

Romans 4:17 - "(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickened the dead, and calleth those things which be not though as they were."

Isaiah 46:10 - "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure."

Matthew 11:21-23 - "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day."

I Samuel 23:5-14 - "So David and his men went to Keilah, and fought with the Philistines, and brought away their cattle, and smote them with a great slaughter. So David saved the inhabitants of Keilah. And it came to pass, when Abiathar the son of Ahimelech fled to David to Keilah, that he came down with an ephod in his hand. And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God hath delivered him into mine hand; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars. And Saul called all the people together to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men. And David knew that Saul secretly practised mischief against him; and he said to Abiathar the priest, Bring hither the ephod. Then said David, O Lord God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake. Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down. Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up. Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth. And David abode in the wilderness in strong holds, and remained in a mountain in the wilderness of Ziph. And Saul sought him every day, but God delivered him not into his hand."

According to what you just said above, God made a boo boo. He didn't realize that polygamy was going to cause problems for Him, so He put His people in a position of backpedaling to avoid persecution.

Also, if the LDS Church was threatened by extinction because of it's beliefs, this indicates a sense of fear of man that should not exist when one is within God's perfect will. These people didn't trust God to protect them, if what you say is true.

So, now He is not only NOT omniscient, but He is also not omnipotent.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to follow a God like that.

Vice, yes I am.

Naughty little girl that I am.

I need an Ambien !

I might address your concerns out of order here, and I might not get all of them, but I'm going to try vice. Keep in mind that it is quite late here, but I can't get back to sleep, so I might be a little incoherent.

As for the verse in timothy that says that all scripture stopped at the bible:

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:16 - 17)

It says that all scripture is given by inspiration of god. Now if you read the first half of that sentance and stop, perhaps you have a point, but that's not how we read. This verse is saying that even those scriptures which do not include God or Jesus christ, and are not direct teachings thereof are still the word of God because they are inspired of God. Which leads me to another point: You read the works of Paul, who is not God and you consider them to be scripture because they came from paul's pen. That must mean that Paul is a prophet. Before being called of Jesus Christ, Paul did his best to persecute every christian he could find. His word sent many a christian to their deaths. Now if you look at his history before his ministry and use that to judge him, there's no way you would listen to a thing he said, but after he saw the light of God, he went on to many great things. He went on to reveal many truths through his epistles, and then later to be martyered for his beliefs. Just like Joseph Smith.

Salvation through works

The verses in the bible that say that you are saved by faith mean that you cannot be saved by works alone, not that works aren't essential for salvation. If you truly have faith in God, then you will love him enough to work for his glory, to walk with him and do his work, even if it means your death.

Yes, you need faith to be saved.

No, no ammount of good works will save you without faith. However, you cannot simply say you believe in God and be saved no matter what actions you take in this life. Mobsters all believe that they will go to heaven because they have been baptised, go to church from time to time and probibly go to confessional. Do you really think that they are going to be standing next to you or I in the end simply because they had faith?

Baptism and Baptism for the dead

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | John 3:5)

I have more if you need to see those, but regardless of what your church is teaching you, it always seemed to me, even when I was an unbaptised protestant, that the doctrine of baptism is a pretty important tennant of the gospell. That verse and others outline what is a commandment to go and be baptised in order to enter the kingdom of God.

As far as baptism for the dead goes, all I can say is that it was mentioned in the bible, and christ's earliest followers practiced it. Look that one up if you don't believe me.

The oneness of the Father and the Son

quote:The following is taken from A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by Elder LeGrand Richards of the quorum of the 12 apostles

[b]

There has been much misunderstanding regarding the oft-repeated statement that Jesus and his Father are one. A careful reading of the seventeenth chapter of John should clarify this matter fully. As Jesus was about to be offered up, he prayed unto his father and thanked him for his apostles, saying, "that they may be one, as we are." (John 17:11) Then he added:

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:20-21)

Now it is very apparent that Jesus was not speaking of oneness of personage, but oneness of purpose, for he further prayed that they might be with him, which would be unnecessary if the oneness referred to was of personage instead of purpose.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (john 17:24)

Again it is evident that the oneness referred to has no reference to oneness of personage, for if jesus and his father were one in person, how absurd to think that Jesus would pray unto himself, or that he would love himself before the foundation of the world. He said: "And this life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3)

This true knowledge of God and of his Son, Jesus Christ, has come again to the world in this dispensation, not through a study of the bible, but through the actual appearance of these heavenly personages to the young Joseph Smith, as he so eloquently testified.



I hope that helps.

I think I covered most of it, but I'm not 100% sure. I'll be on again later today.

well when am I going to get my reply?

Did they renounce polygamy, or just decide not to do it while it was illegal.

quote:Originally posted by kaos_ill:

Did they renounce polygamy, or just decide not to do it while it was illegal.

Little bit from collumn A, little bit from collumn B.

Polygamy is no longer practiced by the church in any form, and is not a part of official church doctrine, however it is believed that it will resume after the resurrection.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

I might address your concerns out of order here, and I might not get all of them, but I'm going to try vice. Keep in mind that it is quite late here, but I can't get back to sleep, so I might be a little incoherent.

1

As for the verse in timothy that says that all scripture stopped at the bible:

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

quote:New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:16 - 17)

It says that all scripture is given by inspiration of god. Now if you read the first half of that sentance and stop, perhaps you have a point, but that's not how we read. This verse is saying that even those scriptures which do not include God or Jesus christ, and are not direct teachings thereof are still the word of God because they are inspired of God. Which leads me to another point: You read the works of Paul, who is not God and you consider them to be scripture because they came from paul's pen. That must mean that Paul is a prophet. Before being called of Jesus Christ, Paul did his best to persecute every christian he could find. His word sent many a christian to their deaths. Now if you look at his history before his ministry and use that to judge him, there's no way you would listen to a thing he said, but after he saw the light of God, he went on to many great things. He went on to reveal many truths through his epistles, and then later to be martyered for his beliefs

Paul is obviously right in what he says.

The point I am getting at is i see there is no need for any more doctrine/gospel.

Try GAL 1:8.

You know what the gospel is right? 1 COR 15:1

quote:Just like Joseph Smith.

He put up a good fight though, ai?

Note: 1 COR 4:6

quote:Salvation through works

The verses in the bible that say that you are saved by faith mean that you cannot be saved by works [b]alone, not that works aren't essential for salvation. If you truly have faith in God, then you will love him enough to work for his glory, to walk with him and do his work, even if it means your death.

Yes, you need faith to be saved.

No, no ammount of good works will save you without faith. However, you cannot simply say you believe in God and be saved no matter what actions you take in this life. Mobsters all believe that they will go to heaven because they have been baptised, go to church from time to time and probibly go to confessional. Do you really think that they are going to be standing next to you or I in the end simply because they had faith?

salvation is a free gift Rom. 6:23, received by faith Eph. 2:8-9

i think you miss understand. works are important but NOT essential for salvation. like i said you become a new person with Jesus. Mormonism believes works are essential for salvation note: "that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23).

If 'mobsters' truly repent and change their ways they are saved, you know that. God is not a God of favoritism.

quote:Baptism and Baptism for the dead

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | John 3:5)

I have more if you need to see those, but regardless of what your church is teaching you, it always seemed to me, even when I was an unbaptised protestant, that the doctrine of baptism is a pretty important tennant of the gospell. That verse and others outline what is a commandment to go and be baptised in order to enter the kingdom of God.

As far as baptism for the dead goes, all I can say is that it was mentioned in the bible, and christ's earliest followers practiced it. Look that one up if you don't believe me.

please show me where it clearly says it is a commandment.

Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.

It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process. Jesus said in verse three that Nicodemus needed to be born "again." This meant that he had been born once--through his mother. Nicodemus responds with a statement about how he can't enter again into his mother's womb to be born. Then Jesus says that he must be born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 6 He says that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.." The context seems to be discussing the contrast between the natural and the spiritual birth. Water, therefore, could easily be interpreted there to mean the natural birth process.

quote:That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:20-21)

The oneness of the Father and the Son

in this instance they are one in purpose.

but what about,

Col 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form,"?

Col 1:15-16, "He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."

phi 2:5-7 "Who, being in very form God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God 7 but made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness."

in John 20:27 Thomas called Jesus God by saying to Jesus, "My Lord and My God". If Jesus is not God, then why did Jesus did not correct Thomas.

quote:how absurd to think that Jesus would pray unto himself

This guy obviously does not understand the trinity. Jesus prayed to the the Father, the first 'person' of the trinity.

quote:or that he would love himself before the foundation of the world.

and again, the Father loves the second 'person' of the trinity.

there is one God, Isaiah 46:9, who exists equally and 100% in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

there are not three gods in a group or office that you call the godhead. Jesus is not an exhalted angel or the brother of satan. God did not "used to be a god on another planet". God does not have a body of "flesh and bones". Gods did not created the universe (Book of Abraham 4:3).



quote:I hope that helps.

I think I covered most of it, but I'm not 100% sure. I'll be on again later today.

You have to read, not just take your feelings in your heart for certain.

"The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?"

(Jer. 17:9)

Even here "Now these were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11).

I dont need help, in a way we are helping you.

Please answer why,

Jesus is God, Heb 1:8

Jesus is prayed to, Acts 7:55-60

Jesus is worshipped, Matt 2:2

He is both God and man, John 1:1;14

About God never being seen, John 1:18 + 1 john 4:12

Preexistance is not apparent.

Of which "father" was the first that created all the other exhalted father gods?

God is a spirit,

there is no need for interest in the dead, 1 Tim 1:4.

"for whoever shall call upon the the name of the Lord shall be saved." Rom 10:13

[This message has been edited by vice (edited 07-20-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

Little bit from collumn A, little bit from collumn B.

Polygamy is no longer practiced by the church in any form, and is not a part of official church doctrine, however it is believed that it will resume after the resurrection.

When you get married you are not eternally married in heaven, like they teach towards the temple.

Note: Matt 22:29-30

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Gal 1:8 says not to preach any other gospell, it doesn't say you can't add to the one allready in there.

<LI>You must really be having a difficult time with this salvation by works thing. I'll say it again: If you truly have faith you will do good works. Many who don't do good works believe they have faith and are saved, like mobsters, and therefore do not reform their ways because they believe in a salvation by faith alone. Do you relly believe the serial killer who has faith in God but never stops killing will stand next to God with you or I in the end? Really think about this one.

<LI>If baptism isn't essential, then why was Jesus, who never sinned, baptised? Jesus was baptised because it is essential. (see mathew 3:16)

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

(New Testament | Matthew 28:19)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

(New Testament | Mark 16:16)

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(New Testament | Acts 2:38)

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(New Testament | Acts 2:38)

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

(New Testament | Galatians 3:27)

Seriously, that may look like a lot of scripture to back up one point, but I do have more. I sincerely doubt you can refute each and every one of those verses, most of which use the actual term "baptism". Now that I have established baptism being necessary for salvation, the reason we baptise for the dead is so that those who haven't had the opportunity to be baptised in life can still be saved.

<LI>We believe that Jesus Christ is an exalted, perfect man, just like God himself. I don't have biblical scripture to back that up, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist. That's a matter of faith for us mormons. That is why Jesus is to be worshiped.

<LI>As far as eternal marriage goes, I dont know how to refute your interpretation of that verse. All I know is that I can't imagine an eternity without my fiancee. I don't believe that such a pure, godly institution as marriage would not carry over into the eternities.

</UL>

What makes you so certain that God will only let a certain amount of people into heaven, the Mormon religion only added that to the bible, secondly you guys are newbies to the whole God thing, and your religion was formed around racism. You still have followers that are racist, and you used to practice polygammism, God strictly said that that was a sin, and yet your religion has practiced it, you are sinning against God and are confused, you are putting a completely different spin on how god wants us to worship him, and for it you will burn in hell. Some Mormons do not realize that their temple Endowment ceremony was copied dirrectly from occult rites in masonry. The Mormon temple ceremony has no connection whatsoever to Christianity. Which therefore shows that the Mormon church has put a Paganistic spin on God. You are complicating and not going anywhere, with your religion other than nowwhere, God intended that all you need to do is believe and show love and compasion. I am not talking about the catholic religion either. By the way I am not a Christian, but i lately started to think more about God, also i am slightly scared of you mormons, you have strict rules about everything, including who you can love, and that is just wrong. So go and FUCK YOURSELF and read the real Bible not the little shitty recopy made By the Mormon's themselves and then you might actually see what it is al about either God's way or your way, one thing i have noticed about Mormon's is that they all seem to be brainwashed, and don't really enjoy life. No one really knows that when you come door-to-door, "witnessing" you have'nt told them everything about the religion, So which leads me to the conclusion that in the back of all your possesed minds you know that you are just following bullshit upon bullshit. And don't you even try and witnessing to me, hahahah i wanna hear your comment's though.

quote:Originally posted by kick my head in:

What makes you so certain that God will only let a certain amount of people into heaven, the Mormon religion only added that to the bible, secondly you guys are newbies to the whole God thing, and your religion was formed around racism. You still have followers that are racist, and you used to practice polygammism, God strictly said that that was a sin, and yet your religion has practiced it, you are sinning against God and are confused, you are putting a completely different spin on how god wants us to worship him, and for it you will burn in hell. Some Mormons do not realize that their temple Endowment ceremony was copied dirrectly from occult rites in masonry. The Mormon temple ceremony has no connection whatsoever to Christianity. Which therefore shows that the Mormon church has put a Paganistic spin on God. You are complicating and not going anywhere, with your religion other than nowwhere, God intended that all you need to do is believe and show love and compasion. I am not talking about the catholic religion either. By the way I am not a Christian, but i lately started to think more about God, also i am slightly scared of you mormons, you have strict rules about everything, including who you can love, and that is just wrong. So go and FUCK YOURSELF and read the real Bible not the little shitty recopy made By the Mormon's themselves and then you might actually see what it is al about either God's way or your way, one thing i have noticed about Mormon's is that they all seem to be brainwashed, and don't really enjoy life. No one really knows that when you come door-to-door, "witnessing" you have'nt told them everything about the religion, So which leads me to the conclusion that in the back of all your possesed minds you know that you are just following bullshit upon bullshit. And don't you even try and witnessing to me, hahahah i wanna hear your comment's though.

^^ great argument +1,000

yeah, i have a few questions:

1) What's up with this baptism for the dead deal.... i mean, if they're dead they're dead, there's nothing you can do about it, they will be judged based on their life not if someone repents for them after they are dead.

2)Why so many rules and stuff that aren't on the bible?

3)What rituals do yall practice that are different from normal christianity?

4)Can you explain this whole 3-world scenario that is portrayed by you mormons?..

quote:Gal 1:8 says not to preach any other gospell, it doesn't say you can't add to the one allready in there.

1 Cor 15:1-4 and read: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures."

Understand first what the gospel is.

There is ONE gospel!

That^ is the complete gospel. Death, burial, resurectiuon. It is in its fullness.

"and even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God," (2 Cor. 4:3-4)

quote:I'll say it again: If you truly have faith you will do good works.

I agree.

quote:Many who don't do good works believe they have faith and are saved, like mobsters, and therefore do not reform their ways because they believe in a salvation by faith alone.

If he is still a mobster then he is still in sin.

A person is justified by faith (Rom. 5:1); that is, he is made right before God by his faith in Christ (excluding the cults that teach a false Jesus). We are not saved by our works or our works added to the sacrifice of Christ. Our works, our good deeds, have absolutely no affect upon our salvation. Our good works do not get us salvation, nor do help us keep our salvation. This is because our good works are filthy rags before God (Is. 64:6). Besides, if we could be saved by works, then righteousness would have been based on the law and Christ would have not needed to die. Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” But, Christ did need to die which proves our works cannot save us.

quote:Do you relly believe the serial killer who has faith in God but never stops killing will stand next to God with you or I in the end? Really think about this one.

We are to have good works. The Bible clearly tells us that if we claim to be Christian and we do not have good works, then we are not saved (1 John 2:4).

Furthermore, the Bible also says that once we are saved, we are not free to be bad (Rom. 6:1-2). We are obligated to be good. In John 14:15 Jesus says, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Also, 1 John 2:3 says, "And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments."

We are not saved by our works because we cannot be. The only way to be saved is to trust in the finished sacrificial work of Christ on the cross. But, once saved, the person is now changed. He is a new creation and the old things have passed away (2 Cor. 5:17). This means that our old sinful ways are gone (or on their way out as we struggle against them). It also means that we then do good works to honor God. We don't do good works to be saved or stay saved. We do good works because we are saved. It is said that you are not saved by good works, but you aren't saved without them. This means that our good works don't save us in any way, but once we are saved we naturally obey God's law and do good works which is a sign of our being saved.

So the relationship between faith and works is simple. We are saved by faith, not by works. But, once saved, we do good works because we are already saved.

quote:If baptism isn't essential, then why was Jesus, who never sinned, baptised? Jesus was baptised because it is essential. (see mathew 3:16)

Quite simply, Jesus was baptized so he could enter into the Melchizedek priesthood so He could be the High Priest and offer himself as a sacrifice for our sins.

In Matthew 3:13-15 it says, "Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, iI need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?' Jesus replied, 'Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.'" Jesus got baptized to fulfill all righteousness.

Exodus 29:1 - "This is what you are to do to consecrate them, so they may serve me as priests: Take a young bull and two rams without defect."

Exodus 29:4 - "Then bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and wash them with water."

Exodus 29:7 - "Take the anointing oil and anoint him by pouring it on his head."

Oil is a type of the Holy Spirit: "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth...As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit -- just as it has taught you, remain in him," (1 John 2:20,27).

The Holy Spirit descended from heaven as a dove and rested upon Jesus (Matt. 3:16).

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10; 6:20). Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin (1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21) in His role as priest.

quote:He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.Mark 16:16)

Does it say if we are not baptized, we are damned?

quote:Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

(Matthew 28:19)

20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you...

Here teaching the commission, to make disciples. People still have a choice to be baptized.

quote:Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Acts 2:38}

This one is in debate.

[URL]www.carm.org/doctrine/acts_2_38.htm[URL]

quote:For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

(Galatians 3:27)

Baptism is the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. It signifies and seals our engrafting into Christ and partaking of the benefits of the covenant of Grace and our engagement to be His.

quote:Seriously, that may look like a lot of scripture to back up one point, but I do have more. I sincerely doubt you can refute each and every one of those verses, most of which use the actual term "baptism". Now that I have established baptism being necessary for salvation, the reason we baptise for the dead is so that those who haven't had the opportunity to be baptised in life can still be saved.

I don’t think you have established anything.

quote:As far as eternal marriage goes, I dont know how to refute your interpretation of that verse. All I know is that I can't imagine an eternity without my fiancee. I don't believe that such a pure, godly institution as marriage would not carry over into the eternities.

It does not mean you will not be with her.





[This message has been edited by vice (edited 07-21-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by kick my head in:

What makes you so certain that God will only let a certain amount of people into heaven, I allready covered that, that is a belief of the Jehova's witnesses, NOT we mormons. Look up your facts before going on a rant please. the Mormon religion only added that to the bible, secondly you guys are newbies to the whole God thing, and your religion was formed around racism. No, no it was not. You still have followers that are racist,I've never met a racist mormon. Hoewever I've met racist members of every single other church in existance. I'm sure there are racist mormons, but that's not the mormon way. and you used to practice polygammism, God strictly said that that was a sin, Where? and yet your religion has practiced it, you are sinning against God and are confused, you are putting a completely different spin on how god wants us to worship him, and for it you will burn in hell. That's just plain wrong. You find me somewhere in the bible to back up that conclusion. Some Mormons do not realize that their temple Endowment ceremony was copied dirrectly from occult rites in masonry. Whatever. The Mormon temple ceremony has no connection whatsoever to Christianity. Which therefore shows that the Mormon church has put a Paganistic spin on God. You are complicating and not going anywhere, with your religion other than nowwhere, God intended that all you need to do is believe and show love and compasion. Your post shows that you must be really good at that. I am not talking about the catholic religion either. By the way I am not a Christian, but i lately started to think more about God, also i am slightly scared of you mormons, you have strict rules about everything, including who you can love, and that is just wrong. Really, because I AM mormon and I've never heard about that crap. I know mormons who smoke, who drink, etc. It's not condoned, and the church won't allow one who does that into the temple, but the only person who needs to know about that is you. You won't be excommunicated for that. So go and FUCK YOURSELF and read the real Bible not the little shitty recopy made By the Mormon's themselves and then you might actually see what it is al about either God's way or your way, one thing i have noticed about Mormon's is that they all seem to be brainwashed, and don't really enjoy life. HA! I'm 10 times happier now than when I wasn't mormon. You really dont know what you're talking about. By the way, you really seem to be a good christian. You seem to be really living that "judge not lest ye be judged" thing. No one really knows that when you come door-to-door, "witnessing" you have'nt told them everything about the religion, So which leads me to the conclusion that in the back of all your possesed minds you know that you are just following bullshit upon bullshit. And don't you even try and witnessing to me, hahahah i wanna hear your comment's though.

[i]You are full of it. You don't know anything about mormons, yet you act like you do. Why dont you read a book or talk to some mormons instead of making stuff up? If you ask the missionaries ANYTHING they will answer your question honestly and tell you everything you need to know. You're once again thinking about the jehovas witnesses. Quit being so judgemental, it's uncool and not christ-like.

On to the next one...

quote:Originally posted by krd:



yeah, i have a few questions:

1) What's up with this baptism for the dead deal.... i mean, if they're dead they're dead, there's nothing you can do about it, they will be judged based on their life not if someone repents for them after they are dead.

2)Why so many rules and stuff that aren't on the bible?

3)What rituals do yall practice that are different from normal christianity?

4)Can you explain this whole 3-world scenario that is portrayed by you mormons?..



1/4) Most Christians believe in two worlds: Heaven, a great place of glory and happiness where one lives with God for all eternity if you are christian and live a good life and Hell, a horrifying place of pain and fire where the nonchristian and the wicked are punished for all eternity.

Us mormons believe in what we call the Plan or Salvation or the Plan of Happiness. A diagram can be found here. You might want to click on it becaue it will help: h ttp://www. home.earth link.net/~dsscheibe/theplans.htm (http: //www.home .earthlink .net/~dssc heibe/thep lans.htm)

We believe that initially you live for a time in what's called the "pre-existance" or the "pre-mortal existance" where God knows you all and you wait to recieve your body for this world.

Then you come here. This world is a state of probation where you live a good life or a bad life. You can be baptised here and therefore be eligible to live with God. No matter what if you wish to live with God you must recieve a baptism done here.

Then you inevitably die. Your body decays, but your spirit goes to the spirit world. The spirit world has two realms, spirit paradise and spirit prison. The richeous then teach the gospell to the unricheous. If the unricheous accept these teachings and someone does a baptism for the dead for them here, then they can be counted among the richeous for the next step.

After a while the resurrection will happen. Jesus will come back and armageddon will happen. The dead will be resurrected with perfect, immortal bodies. Later, all the people ever alive will go to one of three kingdoms, celestial (for those who were baptised and were good people, followed the commandments, etc), terrestrial (for good people who weren't baptised) and telestial (bad people). The punishment of the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms is the thought that you could have had better, not a terrible existance for eternity.

2)There aren't that many rules that we follow that aren't in the bible. The only one I can think of is the word of wisdom (no smoking, drugs, coffee, drinking) And if you look at that it's just good sense. God wants us to be healthy.

3)Be more specific please. Most of them have been mentioned within this page of the discourse. Any questions about them I will answer to the best of my ability.



[This message has been edited by HomerJay603 (edited 07-21-2005).]

All quotes are from the latest post by vice.

"Understand first what the gospel is.

There is ONE gospel!

That^ is the complete gospel. Death, burial, resurectiuon. It is in its fullness."

You are misinterpreting that verse. Don't try so hard. You don't have to believe, but it would be nice if you wouldn't go SO FAR as to try to tell me my religion is against yours.

"If he is still a mobster then he is still in sin.

A person is justified by faith (Rom. 5:1); that is, he is made right before God by his faith in Christ (excluding the cults that teach a false Jesus). We are not saved by our works or our works added to the sacrifice of Christ. Our works, our good deeds, have absolutely no affect upon our salvation. Our good works do not get us salvation, nor do help us keep our salvation. This is because our good works are filthy rags before God (Is. 64:6). Besides, if we could be saved by works, then righteousness would have been based on the law and Christ would have not needed to die. Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” But, Christ did need to die which proves our works cannot save us"

I'm banging my head against a wall to try to explain my position to you, although you seem to understand where I'm coming from, and almost agree, but you are still arguing. Why?

You said that you agree that if you truly have faith you will do good works. Therefore doing good works is a part of having faith, therefore you have to do good works to be saved. Is this really that tough a concept.

"So the relationship between faith and works is simple. We are saved by faith, not by works. But, once saved, we do good works because we are already saved."

The end is the same.

"excluding the cults that teach a false Jesus"

Very nice. Let's be judgemental, God will love that. Find me something in my religion that will sentance me to hell. I dare you. Back it up with scripture or back down, jerk.

"Quite simply, Jesus was baptized so he could enter into the Melchizedek priesthood so He could be the High Priest and offer himself as a sacrifice for our sins."

Wow, I've NEVER heard a nonmormon use that term. I didn't know that was a part of protestant doctrine. I guess I learned something...

"Does it say if we are not baptized, we are damned?"

No, but it says that if you're not baptised you're not saved, and not being saved is the same thing as being damned, isn't it?

"Here teaching the commission, to make disciples. People still have a choice to be baptized."

Just like they have the choice to be saved or not to be saved. that simple.

"It does not mean you will not be with her."

I don't want to be married for 50-80 years, screw that. The thought that I'll be as close to her as I am to you just doesn't jive with me. You have the choice to believe something different, but I believe that I will be married until the day I die.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:



You said that you agree that if you truly have faith you will do good works. Therefore doing good works is a part of having faith, therefore you have to do good works to be saved. Is this really that tough a concept.



what vice means is that doing good works alone won't save you, IF you do them you have to do them out of faith.... at least that's how i interprete it.......

What do you have to say to the fact that Joseph Smith had previously been convicted of fraud (he went around telling people he knew where to dig wells and they paid for false information) and that his brother, Alvin died in a mental institution, proving that dementia ran in the family?

quote:Originally posted by Freelance Tax Collector:

What do you have to say to the fact that Joseph Smith had previously been convicted of fraud (he went around telling people he knew where to dig wells and they paid for false information) and that his brother, Alvin died in a mental institution, proving that dementia ran in the family?

Let's see, Moses killed a man, david was an adulterer, the list goes on. No prophet has been perfect. That's part of the point.

As for the dementia thing, I've never heard that one before, and unless I see some sort of proof I will do what I have done with all anti-mormon propoganda and ignore it. Thank you.

quote:I'm banging my head against a wall to try to explain my position to you, although you seem to understand where I'm coming from, and almost agree, but you are still arguing. Why?

You said that you agree that if you truly have faith you will do good works. Therefore doing good works is a part of having faith, therefore you have to do good works to be saved. Is this really that tough a concept.

That’s where you go wrong.

I hope I do good works because of who I am.

It is that these works are not combined with our faith to merit the forgiveness of our sins, they are, instead, a natural result of our saved condition.

quote:"So the relationship between faith and works is simple. We are saved by faith, not by works. But, once saved, we do good works because we are already saved."

The end is the same.

We do good works because we are Christians, not to become Christians.

We don't do good works to be saved or stay saved.

We do good works because we are saved.

The old things have passed away (2 Cor. 5:17). This means that our old sinful ways are gone (or on their way out as we struggle against them). It also means that we then do good works to honor God. We don't do good works to be saved or stay saved.

quote:"excluding the cults that teach a false Jesus"

Very nice. Let's be judgemental, God will love that. Find me something in my religion that will sentance me to hell. I dare you. Back it up with scripture or back down, jerk.

That’s it mormon, insults, I love it.

Being a Christian means that you are serving the true Jesus, not a false one.

A cultist has a false Jesus, and, therefore, a false hope of salvation.

In order for a person to follow Jesus, he must first accurately understand who He is. If someone called their pet iguana Jesus, even though he had great faith in Jesus the iguana, his faith is useless. Faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed.

The Mormon Jesus is the brother of the devil begotten through sexual intercourse from a god and goddess who used to be people on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 321).

Note: Apostles are also seers, revelators and prophets D&C 107:23, I think then what he says is as good as scripture.

The Jehovah's Witness Jesus is Michael the archangel who became a man, died on a torture stake, did not rise from the dead in the same body he died in, and then went back to being an angel (Aid to Bible Understanding, p. 1152; New Heavens and a New Earth, p. 30) The New Age Jesus is a man in tune with the divine consciousness. In opposition to this, the Jesus of Christianity is both God and Man.

YOU ARE AGAIST MY RELIGION

quote:"Quite simply, Jesus was baptized so he could enter into the Melchizedek priesthood so He could be the High Priest and offer himself as a sacrifice for our sins."

Wow, I've NEVER heard a nonmormon use that term. I didn't know that was a part of protestant doctrine. I guess I learned something...

I hope so, unless you are being sarchy.

I don’t think I am Protestant.

quote:"Does it say if we are not baptized, we are damned?"

No, but it says that if you're not baptised you're not saved, and not being saved is the same thing as being damned, isn't it?

"...but he who does not to believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16 focuses on the issue of belief, not baptism.

I could easily say that he who believes and goes to church will be saved. That is just as true. But it is belief that saves, not belief and going to church.

quote:"Here teaching the commission, to make disciples. People still have a choice to be baptized."

Just like they have the choice to be saved or not to be saved. that simple.

That’s of course your belief.

quote:"It does not mean you will not be with her."

I don't want to be married for 50-80 years, screw that. The thought that I'll be as close to her as I am to you just doesn't jive with me. You have the choice to believe something different, but I believe that I will be married until the day I die.

So do I (if I was married), therefore you believe the same as me here (unless that is a typo).



Why don't you believe Jesus is God?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" John 1:1

"14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) Full of grace and truth"

quote:Why don't you believe Jesus is God?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" John 1:1

"14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) Full of grace and truth"

the 'en arche ho logos ' has been debated here numerous times. wether or it it does say 'the word was god' or 'a god' or 'was divine' is a question of which grammatical school of thought you follow. as evidence for the deity of christ it's too weak an argument .

quote:JESUS IS GOD

The Jesus of the Bible is prayed to (Acts 7:55-60, 1 Cor 1:1-2)

The Jesus of the Bible is worshiped (Matt 1:23, 2:2+11, 14:33, 28:9, John 9:35-38, Heb 1:6)

The Jesus of the Bible is called God (John 20:28, Heb 1:8)

“I even I am the Lord (YHWH); and there is no savoir besides Me” Isaiah 43:11

Is Jesus not the savoir or an angel beside God or is He GOD?

“Thus says the Lord, your redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by myself, and spreading out the Earth all alone” Isaiah 44:24

Col 1:6-17 says JC made all things. IS this a contradiction or is Jesus Jehovah, of about the Trinity?

“Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is none else: I am God and there is none else like me”

This says there are no other like God… anywhere. So you are not going to be a god, there is only one God in all existence, and there always has been.

“And Jesus said to him, “why do you call me good? No one is good except god alone” Mark 10:18

Was JC good or not?

“Then God said, “let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness…” Genesis 1:26. “So God created man in His Own image, in the image of God created He Him...” 1:27

Plurality of GOD?

“Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of Heaven.”

Is this saying there is two LORDS, two Jehovahs?

Isaiah 42:8 reads “I am the Lord, that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another…”

In Heb 1:3 Jesus has the same glory as God, that must mean that Jesus is God.

K, again, responding to vice.

On the faith and works thing, that's a difference in interpretation of scripture. I'm not going to argue with you on that anymore.

"That’s it mormon, insults, I love it.

Being a Christian means that you are serving the true Jesus, not a false one.

A cultist has a false Jesus, and, therefore, a false hope of salvation.

In order for a person to follow Jesus, he must first accurately understand who He is. If someone called their pet iguana Jesus, even though he had great faith in Jesus the iguana, his faith is useless. Faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed.

The Mormon Jesus is the brother of the devil begotten through sexual intercourse from a god and goddess who used to be people on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 321).

Note: Apostles are also seers, revelators and prophets D&C 107:23, I think then what he says is as good as scripture.

The Jehovah's Witness Jesus is Michael the archangel who became a man, died on a torture stake, did not rise from the dead in the same body he died in, and then went back to being an angel (Aid to Bible Understanding, p. 1152; New Heavens and a New Earth, p. 30) The New Age Jesus is a man in tune with the divine consciousness. In opposition to this, the Jesus of Christianity is both God and Man.

YOU ARE AGAIST MY RELIGION"

I asked you to counter with scripture and all you can bring me is conjecture and judgement. 'Tis people like you which I left the various protestant churches because.

Find me one commandment which we do not follow.

Find me one verse which says anything to the effect that mormons go to "hell".

Simply because we do not believe as you do that Jesus IS the same person as God, or becuase we believe that Jesus is a literal son of God, or anything else you can dredge up from the doctrine of the church, does NOT mean that we do not know who Jesus was. It does NOT mean that we do not follow what Jesus taught us.

I submit that if anyone, it is YOU who is following a false Jesus. Jesus taught us to LOVE, not to JUDGE. Jesus taught us not of "hell", but of heaven. Jesus taught us not of punishment, but of redemption. Jesus taught us not to condemn, but to accept. In 2000 years of hegemony over the christian world, the various catholic and protestant churches have lost sight of that.

If you truly wish to follow your Heavenly Father and his Son, you must think of how to better love your fellow man, and not of how to tell them that God is going to punish them for not worshiping him correctly. For shame.

"I hope so, unless you are being sarchy.

I don’t think I am Protestant."

No, I was being serious.

As for you being a protestant, if you follow the doctrine of any church which has broken off from the catholic church, or any church broken off from that you are a protestant.

dictionary.com definition #1

"A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers."

""...but he who does not to believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16 focuses on the issue of belief, not baptism.

I could easily say that he who believes and goes to church will be saved. That is just as true. But it is belief that saves, not belief and going to church."

Even if it doesn't focus on baptism, it mentions it as a condition for salvation. You must be baptised in order to be saved.

And again, you've again managed to completely ignore all the other verses I put up there.

"So do I (if I was married), therefore you believe the same as me here (unless that is a typo)."

Sorry, that was a typo.

What was supposed to be intelligent discourse in order to dispell myths about my religion has descended into judgemental arguing about doctrine, which I hardly think is worth either of our time, considering that to our deaths neither of us will back down.

I wasnt trying to be an ass, I just wanted to know what you thought. Just out of curiosity, have you seen the south park where they explain mormons?

By the way, even though I am not LDS, I live in Logan, Utah, So I am rather immersed in the culture. Most of my friends were LDS (before they all left for Boot).

quote:Originally posted by Freelance Tax Collector:

I wasnt trying to be an ass, I just wanted to know what you thought. Just out of curiosity, have you seen the south park where they explain mormons?

By the way, even though I am not LDS, I live in Logan, Utah, So I am rather immersed in the culture. Most of my friends were LDS (before they all left for Boot).

I'm sorry if you thought I was talking about you, I was referring to vice's "if you dont worship the right jesus you go to hell" tyrade.

Yes, I have seen the mormon episode of south park. For a long time it was the basis of my views on the church. It came out before I converted, and afterwards now it disgusts me. If you explain any religion in this way you can make it look stupid. So many times have missionaries been turned away because of this terrible thing.

See, Trey Parker used to be mormon. He even served a full 2 year mission. Then he became involved with Matt Stone and was excommunicated for being gay. Now that the church has shunned him, he has decided to lash out against it. It's very annoying.

quote:

Find me one verse which says anything to the effect that mormons go to "hell".

I think this is pointing to hell:

Jesus

A. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)

B. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15.)

C. Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)

D. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

E. "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115).

F. "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547).

G. "Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost ...Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954, 1:18).

H. "Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ..." (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, pg. 150).



quote:Simply because we do not believe as you do that Jesus IS the same person as God, or becuase we believe that Jesus is a literal son of God, or anything else you can dredge up from the doctrine of the church, does NOT mean that we do not know who Jesus was. It does NOT mean that we do not follow what Jesus taught us.

I have put forward scripture that demonstrates a divine nature of Jesus. Have you put forward your argument? No

Like I said you must have faith in Christ to be saved. If someone JUST does Good works he will not. You must have faith in Christ, the correct one.

I believe the LDS teach incorrectly and are wrong.

faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed.

quote:I submit that if anyone, it is YOU who is following a false Jesus. Jesus taught us to LOVE, not to JUDGE. Jesus taught us not of "hell"

Jesus did speak of hell numourous times.

quote:but of heaven. Jesus taught us not of punishment, but of redemption. Jesus taught us not to condemn, but to accept. In 2000 years of hegemony over the christian world, the various catholic and protestant churches have lost sight of that.

If you truly wish to follow your Heavenly Father and his Son, you must think of how to better love your fellow man, and not of how to tell them that God is going to punish them for not worshiping him correctly. For shame.

I am defending my faith, I was not name calling, like you

1 Pet 3:15 - ". . . always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you…

2 cor 10:5-6 “We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.”

Maybe I sounded aggressive but I am sure I was only in the push to get the things answered.

quote:And again, you've again managed to completely ignore all the other verses I put up there.

I put my interpretations, where have I missed one?

quote:What was supposed to be intelligent discourse in order to dispell myths about my religion has descended into judgemental arguing about doctrine, which I hardly think is worth either of our time, considering that to our deaths neither of us will back down.

The LDS interpretation, changes, creed of doctrine is in question.

quote:anyone on this forum can ask me anything about my religion and I will do my best to answer your questions.

Well from this I guess I could ask ANY question. But who says I have to sit back and listen to you talk rubbish to everyone. You did not answer 50% of my questions. This is a discussion board.

But if I have offended you by giving my points of view with scripture in the Bible of which mormons use, or you want to stop, I will.





[This message has been edited by vice (edited 07-22-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

I'm sorry if you thought I was talking about you, I was referring to vice's "if you dont worship the right jesus you go to hell" tyrade.

Yes, I have seen the mormon episode of south park. For a long time it was the basis of my views on the church. It came out before I converted, and afterwards now it disgusts me. If you explain any religion in this way you can make it look stupid. So many times have missionaries been turned away because of this terrible thing.

See, Trey Parker used to be mormon. He even served a full 2 year mission. Then he became involved with Matt Stone and was excommunicated for being gay. Now that the church has shunned him, he has decided to lash out against it. It's very annoying.



That's a little harsh, I don't think he was badmouthing the church, just making the concept on which it was formed look a little silly. He did hit the family values stuff right on the nail though. I will give all the mormons I have met credit in that they are generous enough to give you the shirt off their back.

But in the end, I will disagree in that Stan and Kyle and them were made out to be assholes.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

no it doesn't!

ummmmmmmmm yes it does....

18*“I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;

19*and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.

quote:Originally posted by john_deer:

ummmmmmmmm yes it does....

18 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;

19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.



yes , you are an idiot..

read it for fuck's sake!

"the scroll of this prophecy" not the entire bible.



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 07-22-2005).]

Continuing the argument with vice...

"I think this is pointing to hell:

Jesus

A. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)

B. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15.)

C. Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)

D. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

E. "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115).

F. "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547).

G. "Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost ...Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954, 1:18).

H. "Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ..." (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, pg. 150).

No, no it's not. I asked for scripture which said that we were going to hell. You have provided none. Your argument is made up of nothing but judgemental prejudice. If you actually knew Jesus Christ you would know that this sort of behavior is not christ-like in the least. Do you truly believe it is your job to judge other human beings? That is a work for God himself, not for any man. If you think it's your mandate to tell everyone who believes different from you that they're going to hell, then you need to crush some tinfoil on your antenna man, because you are getting some serious interference.

"I have put forward scripture that demonstrates a divine nature of Jesus. Have you put forward your argument? No"

If you'd take the time to scroll a little up on the screen you can find my argument.

"Like I said you must have faith in Christ to be saved. If someone JUST does Good works he will not. You must have faith in Christ, the correct one.

I believe the LDS teach incorrectly and are wrong.

faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed."

I never said that good works alone will get anyone into heaven. I said that only by faith and good works can one achieve an eternity with God.

So you believe that everyone who has faith in God must have the right concept of God, or God's gonna tell them "whoops, I was a hippopotomous, not a spiritual being, sorry you read the bible wrong, time to go to hell."

That is a very perverted way of looking at God. God is love, not technicalities. I sincerely hope that you realize that one day.

"Jesus did speak of hell numourous times."

Yes, but his tenure here on this earth was not to warn us of hell, it was to welcome us into heaven. Jesus's ministry was not a cautionary tale saying "follow me or be damned", it was a motivational tour saying "follow me and be saved!"

"I am defending my faith, I was not name calling, like you"

No, I'm defending my faith. I never told you that you were going to hell because you believe what you do, you were telling me that. I never called your religion a cult, you called mine one.

"Maybe I sounded aggressive but I am sure I was only in the push to get the things answered."

I answered every question you asked. You aren't in the push to get things answered, you are in the push to get things answered the way you want them answered.

"Well from this I guess I could ask ANY question. But who says I have to sit back and listen to you talk rubbish to everyone. You did not answer 50% of my questions. This is a discussion board."

You aren't asking questions, you are attacking doctrine. Your first post was asking questions, every subsequent post has been not to ask a question, but to tell me how wrong I am in your opinion. You are not seeking knowledge, you are seeking agreement, which you will never get.

"But if I have offended you by giving my points of view with scripture in the Bible of which mormons use, or you want to stop, I will."

No, I think you offended me when you told me I was going to hell without any basis for that other than prejudice.

Vice, I dont know what to say. You need to stop judging and start loving. That's what the bible was all about. It was not about who's going to hell, it was about who's going to heaven. The God you see is not the God of abraham, but a God created by thousands of years of church propoganda. If you can find scripture in the bible that says "mormons go to hell" or something to that effect, then I might take you more seriously, but good luck, 'cause it's not in there. Find me a verse that says that you have to have faith in the right interpretation of God and Jesus. Your arguments are based on prejudice and nothing else.

quote:No, no it's not. I asked for scripture which said that we were going to hell. You have provided none. Your argument is made up of nothing but judgemental prejudice. If you actually knew Jesus Christ you would know that this sort of behavior is not christ-like in the least. Do you truly believe it is your job to judge other human beings? That is a work for God himself, not for any man. If you think it's your mandate to tell everyone who believes different from you that they're going to hell, then you need to crush some tinfoil on your antenna man, because you are getting some serious interference.

I cannot see at any point I was judging YOU because of your belief, more that I was judging the religion its self. If you can find a point where I have indicated hate toward YOU then please show me and I will apologize.

I am not making personal attacks

quote:If you'd take the time to scroll a little up on the screen you can find my argument.

I cannot find it. Please show me where you have provided scripture indicating; Pre existence, Jesus as a spirit baby, Jesus the brother of the devil, three kingdoms of heaven, Jesus being called God (Heb 1:8), God as a man/with body.

And rather than saying it is something Joseph Smith saw, provide a biblical verse as well that does not contradict it. I have found none.

quote:"Jesus did speak of hell numerous times."

Yes, but his tenure here on this earth was not to warn us of hell, it was to welcome us into heaven. Jesus's ministry was not a cautionary tale saying "follow me or be damned", it was a motivational tour saying "follow me and be saved!"

No? He warns here.

“He therefore began saying to the multitudes who were going out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Luke 3:7).

“… whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the Judgement” (Matt 5:21

“… it is better to for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.”

I think he spoke more of hell than heaven.

quote:I am defending my faith, I was not name calling, like you"

No, I'm defending my faith. I never told you that you were going to hell because you believe what you do, you were telling me that. I never called your religion a cult, you called mine one.

No you didn’t but your religion does....

quote:If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670.)

I’m sorry I said you were going to hell.

quote:"Maybe I sounded aggressive but I am sure I was only in the push to get the things answered."

I answered every question you asked. You aren't in the push to get things answered, you are in the push to get things answered the way you want them answered.

You did NOT.

I want my questions answered to be biblically sound. But then again I can still choose if they are your interpretations.

quote:"Well from this I guess I could ask ANY question. But who says I have to sit back and listen to you talk rubbish to everyone. You did not answer 50% of my questions. This is a discussion board."

You aren't asking questions, you are attacking doctrine. Your first post was asking questions, every subsequent post has been not to ask a question, but to tell me how wrong I am in your opinion. You are not seeking knowledge, you are seeking agreement, which you will never get.

I was trying to help that’s all. I see your religion as wrong and I want to help others just like your missionaries...mission/convert.

I also want others to see what is CORRECT.

Not my fault you cannot answer the 50% of questions, or others to my liking.

But if I have offended you by giving my points of view with scripture in the Bible of which mormons use, or you want to stop, I will."

quote:No, I think you offended me when you told me I was going to hell without any basis for that other than prejudice.

I’m sorry I told you, but I did give valid points towards salvation.

quote:It was not about who's going to hell, it was about who's going to heaven. The God you see is not the God of abraham, but a God created by thousands of years of church propoganda. If you can find scripture in the bible that says "mormons go to hell" or something to that effect, then I might take you more seriously, but good luck, 'cause it's not in there. Find me a verse that says that you have to have faith in the right interpretation of God and Jesus. Your arguments are based on prejudice and nothing else.

Im sorry but I backed up my beliefs with a post of scripture. My arguments are based from quoting the scriptures. I am not the only person defending my faith and refuting you.

Do still think I am a jerk?





[This message has been edited by vice (edited 07-22-2005).]

Vice, Vice, Vice... You still have provided zero scripture to prove to the effect that I'm going to hell because I'm mormon.

"I cannot see at any point I was judging YOU because of your belief, more that I was judging the religion its self. If you can find a point where I have indicated hate toward YOU then please show me and I will apologize.

I am not making personal attacks"

You told me I was going to hell. That's a judgement of me as much as it is a judgement of my religion. Not to mention the numerious times you called me a "cultist", and the time that you specifically stated that I was "against your religion".

"I cannot find it. Please show me where you have provided scripture indicating; Pre existence, Jesus as a spirit baby, Jesus the brother of the devil, three kingdoms of heaven, Jesus being called God (Heb 1:8), God as a man/with body.

And rather than saying it is something Joseph Smith saw, provide a biblical verse as well that does not contradict it. I have found none."

I provided scripture to support my conclusion that Jesus is not God. As for the rest of those things, I seem to remember a couple responses ago, YOU provided scripture about the other things, it just wasn't YOUR scripture. Mormons regard most of those other things to be scripture, or the passages therein to point towards scripture. I have answered your questions, just not to your liking. This thread was not made to convince you all that the doctrine of my church was right, just to dispell the myths about it.

"No? He warns here.

“He therefore began saying to the multitudes who were going out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Luke 3:7).

“… whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the Judgement” (Matt 5:21

“… it is better to for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.”

I think he spoke more of hell than heaven."

That is a really sad view of the savior as a giant ass who's sole purpose on earth was to tell us to stay in line or daddy would punish us all for eternity, don't you think? The other users of this forum are correct, if God is the way you think he is, he's really not a God of love, but a sadist.

"No you didn’t but your religion does...."

My religion doesn't even believe in hell. You find me one active mormon who will seriously say the words "if you dont convert, you're going to hell" and I will give you a dollar.

"You did NOT.

I want my questions answered to be biblically sound. But then again I can still choose if they are your interpretations."

I still answered your questions didn't I? I may not have answered them with 50 different verses from the bible, not as if I had you would have listened, but to the best of my ability I answered them. I'm no missionary. I dont have all the answers. I did my best, but you're complaining becasue I won't back down from my position. That's what part of faith is, not changing your ideas just because some evangelical "christian" online that tells me that because I don't worship God just right I'm going to be punshed for all eternity. Sorry pal, not buying it. God is not a sadist.

"I was trying to help that’s all. I see your religion as wrong and I want to help others just like your missionaries...mission/convert.

I also want others to see what is CORRECT.

Not my fault you cannot answer the 50% of questions, or others to my liking.

But if I have offended you by giving my points of view with scripture in the Bible of which mormons use, or you want to stop, I will."

See, it's that richeous attitude that irritates me. I have answered all your questions. Name one I haven't. I dont hear you giving this "you're going to hell" lecture to anyone else on this forum. I didn't hear it in the scientology topic, the atheism topic, or any other topic, just mine. If you truly believed that everyone who isn't a member of your idiotic little corner of christianity is going to be punished forever, then you should be speaking to them with the same blind furvor that you are speaking to me, eh? You have not supported your point of view that I'm going to hell with any sort of scripture. All you've done is remind me of what I believe by quoting my scripture, and then told me that all of it is going to send me to hell. Not really much of an argument, is it?

"I’m sorry I told you, but I did give valid points towards salvation."

No, no you did not.

"Im sorry but I backed up my beliefs with a post of scripture. My arguments are based from quoting the scriptures. I am not the only person defending my faith and refuting you.

Do still think I am a jerk?"

The arguments you made which irritated me you still haven't backed up with any scripture. You backed up your contention that Jesus is God with scripture, that you dont have to be baptised with scripture, etc (I should note that my opposing argument were also scripturally based). However your contention that I'm going to hell because I'm mormon you have Not backed with scripture.

Honestly, I expect your response to include scripture which proves that either A) One must worship the correct concept of Jesus Christ to achieve salvation or B) that something we mormons believe will send us to hell.

If you can't come up with that then your entire argument up to this point has been just what I said it was, prejudice and idiocy.

Good luck.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

to anyone who knows their bible the character of JS is more evidence for his being a prophet /man of god than a disqualification.

David was a murderer, adultery and probably a lousy father...

Noah was an alcoholic who slept with his own daughters (oh yeah..suuuure he was too far gone to know *sniggers*)

Abraham was a 'pimp'

Jonah had the back bone of an eel

the list goes on.



i don't think i've ever met a mormon who has tried to defend Js in anyway. they openly admit he was a crook, con man and a thief.

god chooses his 'mouth pieces ' by his own criteria.







Jonah was the only prophet in that there list.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

jackketch: Noah was an alcoholic who slept with his own daughters (oh yeah..suuuure he was too far gonna to know *sniggers*)

I think you're confusing Noah with Lot there. Both of them are notable for getting drunk, but it was Lot who slept with his daughters.

C'est vrai! Noah got fucked by Ham, his black son. READ IT!

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:



Jonah was the only prophet in that there list.

wrong.

and anyway i did write "/man of god" (as the lines are often blurred).