Put simply, if God exists then every law of the natural universe that we have ever formulated is false.

Why? because it would be theoretically possible for them to be violated.

It is uhhh...a fairly large leap of faith to believe in God don't you think?

Wow, did you think of that all by yourself?

Yes.

No offense man, but you're a HUGE dipshit. I mean huge.

You think this hasn't been though of before?

In all serious though, you don't really believe what you typed though do you?

i think that god can "change" them, but that doesn't make the laws false...

I know that that issue has been discussed before, but just because he doesn't know the popular views/opinions on that subject, i don't think that it makes him a dipshit...he's just asking a question.

There's no such thing as a natural law. Everyone thought Newton's theories were laws until Einstein came around.

If god did create the universe then perhaps he created the natural laws to limit them. Most likely we haven't got those laws right yet, but they could exist.

Your right napoleon_complex, i don't believe a single word of it, except the end part...

quote:It is uhhh...a fairly large leap of faith to believe in God don't you think?

Because i don't believe in God.

Yet there are those of you who believe that there is a God, and so therefore must also believe the initial part of my post...

quote:Put simply, if God exists then every law of the natural universe that we have ever formulated is false.

Why? because it would be theoretically possible for them to be violated.

If that statement would make me a dipshit - and i don't even believe it...then what would it make those of you who do believe in God, and therefore this statement?

I was saying you're a dipshit for thinking that the existence of a god would negate natural laws. That is just flawed logic.

I thought he meant more along the lines of an all-powerful God being able to change/bypass/eradicate the natural laws.

Laws are just statements of regularity, and einstein merely showed that Newton's laws didn't work for everything, but that doesn't mean they don't work. they work for everyday things, just not the quantum or the massive. the reason is that since they aren't perfect those tiny decimal places add up on a quantum or massive level.

If anyone is familiar with cosmology they'll have heard of the unifying theory. one law that encompasses the 4 forces. while this hasn't been discovered yet (and may never be), if it is discovered it will be a true natural law, a true statement of the regulation of the universe.

that's all. salud.

quote:Originally posted by Fanglekai:

I thought he meant more along the lines of an all-powerful God being able to change/bypass/eradicate the natural laws.

Laws are just statements of regularity, and einstein merely showed that Newton's laws didn't work for everything, but that doesn't mean they don't work. they work for everyday things, just not the quantum or the massive. the reason is that since they aren't perfect those tiny decimal places add up on a quantum or massive level.

If anyone is familiar with cosmology they'll have heard of the unifying theory. one law that encompasses the 4 forces. while this hasn't been discovered yet (and may never be), if it is discovered it will be a true natural law, a true statement of the regulation of the universe.

that's all. salud.

Exactly, no law is perfect in every case.

quote:If god did create the universe then perhaps he created the natural laws to limit them. Most likely we haven't got those laws right yet, but they could exist.

quote:Exactly, no law is perfect in every case.

Probably not the case eh?

Surely if God did create the universe the laws would be perfect.

quote:I was saying you're a dipshit for thinking that the existence of a god would negate natural laws. That is just flawed logic.

That depends on your viewpoint. I love the way you make a point but fail to provide any argument to back it up.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

That depends on your viewpoint. I love the way you make a point but fail to provide any argument to back it up.

Back up my point like you did yours in your first post? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

yea, i never got how atheists could think just because the big bang happened,or evolution proved [which btw it hasnt been. it is the THEORY of evolution not the law. hence why they call it a theory not a law like the laws of gravity], that there is no god.

there has to be a rhyme and reason so to speak. IMO science is figuring out how god did it, not disproving god. i dont feel at all threatened by the advancement of science.

the only thing science may be doing is destroying someof the bible. that doesnt bother me. ok, so the 7 day thing didnt happen exactly like that. big deal. ok, the earth is older than a couple thousand years. so what? there were dinosaurs before humans. perhaps god wanted godzilla and jurassic park to be made?

this is what i find so fucking hilarious about some of the threads on this board. some kid posts something we all learned in school like its the silver bullet to kill the concept of god.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Put simply, if God exists then every law of the natural universe that we have ever formulated is false.

Why? because it would be theoretically possible for them to be violated.

It is uhhh...a fairly large leap of faith to believe in God don't you think?



lol, 200 years ago they thought bleeding cured influenza. they had no idea about virii or DNA or even the uniquness of fingerprints.

listen junior let me educate you: just because ppl find out the theories and supposed laws they formulated arent spot on doesnt mean anything. there are no violations, because the universe isnt wrong, WE ARE.

the basis of your arguement is flawed.

quote:Back up my point like you did yours in your first post?

It was self evident, how can it be a law if it can be violated.

quote:listen junior let me educate you: just because ppl find out the theories and supposed laws they formulated arent spot on doesnt mean anything. there are no violations, because the universe isnt wrong, WE ARE.

Do you even know wtf you are talking about?

You clearly didn't understand my post so, just for you i'll explain it even more.

Not only is every law ever formulated false, but every law that will be formulated will be false. If God has the ability to violate them how can they really be a law?

God is a successful memeplex. It only survives because it is a good replicator.

It is only a good replicator because it incarnates the deeply rooted emotional and psychological issues that makes us supreme to other animals and lies at the very heart of our precious egos, which is part of a bigger driving force that translates into our "belief system".

It's (proven) survival characteristics are to never question the "faith", go to great length to infect others, and absolute punishment if you waiver from it's doctrines.

I prefer Science to God. Even it can be defined as a meme due to the fact that it is information being passed from one generation to another, but at least it's survival characteristics encourage the hostmind to ask questions, seek to disprove, and welcomes challenge and debate. That, and it makes more sense. And it has no prejudices, and it doesn't depend (so much) on culture to stay logical, uniform and consistent.

Furthermore, it seems more comforting for me to believe that the root of my existence wasn't designed by an on-high supernatural Creator, but by a natural process that has absolutely no direction whatsoever and who has no end result in mind, nor any particular "plan" for my being. That is what makes me feel wonderful as a human being. Whatever path I follow is mine and mine alone to shape and control.

/my opinion

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

God is a successful memeplex. It only survives because it is a good replicator.

It is only a good replicator because it incarnates the deeply rooted emotional and psychological issues that makes us supreme to other animals and lies at the very heart of our precious egos, which is part of a bigger driving force that translates into our "belief system".

It's (proven) survival characteristics are to never question the "faith", go to great length to infect others, and absolute punishment if you waiver from it's doctrines.

I prefer Science to God. Even it can be defined as a meme due to the fact that it is information being passed from one generation to another, but at least it's survival characteristics encourage the hostmind to ask questions, seek to disprove, and welcomes challenge and debate. That, and it makes more sense. And it has no prejudices, and it doesn't depend (so much) on culture to stay logical, uniform and consistent.

Furthermore, it seems more comforting for me to believe that the root of my existence wasn't designed by an on-high supernatural Creator, but by a natural process that has absolutely no direction whatsoever and who has no end result in mind, nor any particular "plan" for my being. That is what makes me feel wonderful as a human being. Whatever path I follow is mine and mine alone to shape and control.

/my opinion

yet another person, attempting to sound intelligent that missed the big picture.

most if not all of the criticisms you heaped out just now have to do with 2 things, neither of which are god: the bible and man.

you dont like whats in the bible? truth be told most of it rubs me the wrong way as well. however, instead of pitching a fit over it, i take the logical view: it has been corrupted for power and political moves.

the catholics made the bible what it is. and no doubt inserted or otherwise changed a good portion of it. so, using my ability to ask questions, i disregaurd alot of the scare tactic bullshit. just that simple really.

as for the 'infecting' stuff, well thats funny. let me remind you of how many atheists try to beat science over the head of the faithfull in a similar infecting attempt. but thats different, because you guys believe you really know whats going on right? this is called hypocracy.

anyway, the ppl who would try to convert you in tis day and age are rude morons. everyone i know, and i know a few, who beleive only want there POV respected. neither they nor i want to convert you. it seems to me though, that its you who attempt to stomp out faith in your zeal. the atheistic community in general that is.

ou act as though going to hell is as easy as fucking up once or twice. not true either, but dont let the truth get in the way of a good rant. i dont beleive in hell personally.

you do have the ability to shape your own destiny if your a christian: its called free will, god gave it to us. lol.

have a nice day.

I wasn't attempting to sound intelligent, I was just responding to the God Vs. Science topic.

I never criticized the bible. I merely posted my opinion as to why the idea of God has been such a powerful influence and has shaped so many lives. I pointed out why I felt it was so successful in doing so. You call that criticism? I call that spouting my opinion, and then going to great lengths to add (in boldfaced text, at the end) that it was merely my OPINION . Does that constitute "pitching a fit"? If so, you've never seen someone truly pitching a fit.

quote: anyway, the ppl who would try to convert you in tis day and age are rude morons. everyone i know, and i know a few, who beleive only want there POV respected. neither they nor i want to convert you. it seems to me though, that its you who attempt to stomp out faith in your zeal. the atheistic community in general that is.

And that's all I expect, is to have my POV respected. No way can you read my post and interpret it as an attempt to convert someone from their religion. I have no desire to "stomp out faith". I realize some people really need it in their lives to maintain their sense of guidance and keep their moral values in check. For others, it just gives them the warmfuzzies. To each his own, but in an open forum where everyone is encouraged to spout their opinions, you can bet your ass that I'm going to put my two cents in.

I am SO appreciating the irony and quirkiness of being admonished by a God Supporter with a screen name of Nihilist. I fucking love totse.

This is going to seem boilerplate, but I have seen AngryFemme's posts for quite a while now, and they ARE intelligent.

I don't agree with them...EVER...but in comparison to the garbage that is usually spewed in My God...

Nihilist, play nice. *smiles*

i belive in a god in a christian mold, but i dont think its exactly right.

i have nihilistic, deconstructionist thought patterns, but im not completly a nihilist.

how is being nuanced and not easily pegged funny?

btw, i disclaimed myself. i said you, and went on to clarify that i was talking about the atheistic community in general. i thought i was being clear enough, but ill go ahead and say that in so many words.

alot of your points are directly connected to the bible.

you also left out, in your response to the atheistic community paragraph, the possibiliy that its more than guidance or the warmfuzzies, but the truth.

I can't even see you agreeing with Nihilist on alot of his beliefs, according to his statements. Although I'm sure it's alot closer in the ballpark versus what I believe in. But thanks for the props, Digi. It's nice not being viewed as a raving heretic ALL of the time http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Still. That's what this is all about, folks. Difference of opinion and a medium to hash it out on.

I don't offend easily. The 'have a nice day' part was Nihilist's saving grace with me http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) My zeal bothered him, but his zeal is worth commending, in my book. Defending what you believe in shouldn't be taken lightly by anyone.

quote:Originally posted by Nihilist:



you also left out, in your response to the atheistic community paragraph, the possibiliy that its more than guidance or the warmfuzzies, but the truth.

It's their truth. Because it cannot be proven or disproved (on either side, to satisfy the others) - it is all relative to the individual who accepts it as their personal truth.

I don't prefer being called an atheist, because it is usually connected with a group of people who make it their personal mission to disprove Christianity. I am receptive enough to other people's feelings to realize that spirituality is important to them.

I consider myself more of a Humanist, taking on a naturalistic worldview of things. Having said that, not believing in anything supernatural or mystical is important to me. It's what drives me to post on threads like this.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Do you even know wtf you are talking about?

You clearly didn't understand my post so, just for you i'll explain it even more.

Not only is every law ever formulated false, but every law that will be formulated will be false. If God has the ability to violate them how can they really be a law?

Your logic is flawed because you think that if there was a God, he would have made every law perfect.

Why wouldn't it?

[This message has been edited by Daz (edited 07-25-2005).]