I've begun writing my articles (for real) and I'm getting stumped on a few issues with Hebrew cosmology. Here are my resources:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Biblical Conception of the Universe (http://tinyurl.com/75oyn)

<LI>The Flat-Earth Bible. (http://tinyurl.com/26h9a)

<LI>Cosmology and Cosmogony of Ancient Civilizations (http://tinyurl.com/c8gk4)

<LI>A COMMON COSMOLOGY OF THE ANCIENT WORLD (http://tinyurl.com/5q93z)

<LI>Chapter 2: How Do We Read? (http://tinyurl.com/akfpm)

<LI>The Three-Storied Universe (http://tinyurl.com/75ghf)</UL>

My article so far:

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Hebrew Cosmology

Overview:

The Hebrew cosmology, or view of the physical universe, is similar to that of other ancient Mesopotamian cultures. It is very foreign to our modern knowledge of the world, and this tends to lead to confusion when passages from the Bible describe parts of the earth.

The universe was much smaller back then: there was no outer space with its solar systems, galaxies, and other celestial objects. The stars, sun, and moon were thought of as luminous spiritual beings travelling across the roof of the sky in predetermined paths. The sky itself, sometimes called the "firmament," was a large solid dome of unknown material, and along with holding up the waters of . The dome of the sky is held up near the edge of the habitable earth by mountains, also called the pillars of the sky. This circular area where the sky meets the ground is called the horizon, or the "circle of the earth." On the flat surface of the earth lies the land and oceans. Not far below lies a layer of water called the "deep" from which springs and wells get their water, and an underworld called Sheol, or the "grave." Finally, all the earth rests on its foundations, which are called the pillars of the earth.

Outside of the structure of the earth were the cosmic waters from which the earth was formed. Based on a few observations of the rest of the Hebrew cosmology, I would guess that there is air above and an ocean floor below. There must be a surface of the ocean, for it says before the earth itself was formed that the spirit of God was above the primeval waters. As well, God's dwelling place is in heaven on top of the earth's sky, and it is not flooded with water. As for the ocean floor, it would make a logical place for the foundations of the earth to be planted in. It would also seem to solve the problem of where the land comes from during the separation of earth's landmass from its seas.

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Okay, I know that this primeval ocean has a surface. But where is this surface in relation to the firmament? Some illustrations describe the ocean covering the entire earth, while others show part of the ocean in some sort of containment area above the firmament. I would go with the idea that it covers the entire earth, but then where does God live? After all, he's supposed to be somewhere above the firmament, right?

Another thing I'm having a problem with is obvious from my rough draft of the article. Is it possible that the pillars of the earth connect to a primeval ocean floor? I remember reading that there's a passage in Job that says that God suspended the earth on nothing, but then again I'm thinking that might just mean the land on the surface of the earth, which floats on top of the "deep."

Then there's the problem of the waters of the deep in relation to sheol. How exactly does that work out?

For those of you looking at Robert Shadewald's article, realize that the Enochian description of the universe is more recent than the OT, so be careful with that. I'm probably going to make a section of its own for Enoch.

Edit: I forgot to add, one of my other problems is I need to find out where the land came from during the creation when God separates the land from the seas. And also, if the land floats on the deep or if it's held up by the pillars of the earth.

Edit2: added another resource, fixed links.



[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 07-22-2005).]

Next section:

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The sky:

The idea of the sky having a dome shape comes from an optical illusion. You can see this outside on starry nights. Normally your brain can tell the distance of an object by using measuring parallax, which involves comparing the vision from both of your eyes. However, stars and other celestial objects are far beyond the maximum distance at which parallax can be detected. So your brain just assumes them all to be at some indeterminable distance far off. When viewed, the stars look like they are all hanging in an area of space in the shape of a dome. Try it for yourself if you haven't already.

An interesting fact is that the dome is a very strong structure, due to its geometric properties. In fact, it became a very popular architectural form through the Romans.

The ancient Mesopotamians also believed that there was an ocean of water above the sky. Rain falls from the sky, and it is blue in color during most of the day, so it seemed to make sense. When it was time to rain, God would open a slot in the sky, called a "window of heaven" and the water would fall down. Clouds were also thought of as storage devices for weather elements, but in some Old Testament verses they were described as the dust of God's feet, as if he was walking around opening up the windows of heaven.

In order for people to see the ocean above the sky, it must have been transparent. Some passages suggest that God formed it from ice, which could simply be frozen from the cosmic ocean. Several other passages indicate that God hammered out the sky from the raw material like how a craftsman would make a bowl.

The sun, moon, and stars all moved across the sky according to the directions given to them when it was their time to shine. When they were not shining for the world they were assumed to be somewhere outside the dome of the sky.

Just like last time...

Would *somebody* like to share their knowledge on the subject, or at the least give an opinion? Even you conservative Christians out there who probably don't believe this, you should respond too. Please tell me what you think.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Okay, I know that this primeval ocean has a surface. But where is this surface in relation to the firmament? Some illustrations describe the ocean covering the entire earth, while others show part of the ocean in some sort of containment area above the firmament. I would go with the idea that it covers the entire earth, but then where does God live? After all, he's supposed to be somewhere above the firmament, right?

Another thing I'm having a problem with is obvious from my rough draft of the article. Is it possible that the pillars of the earth connect to a primeval ocean floor? I remember reading that there's a passage in Job that says that God suspended the earth on nothing, but then again I'm thinking that might just mean the land on the surface of the earth, which floats on top of the "deep."

Then there's the problem of the waters of the deep in relation to sheol. How exactly does that work out?



At the point you are describing, I think the earth is supposed to be pretty much in the same shape it is today. If the ocean is in the same place it is today, that would still leave the sky above us for God to live in. He would be above the firmament that we live on.

I think the pillars may be metaphorical, or clouds or mountains.

The earth being suspended on nothing may refer to our planet being in space.

Sheol may be where the the lava and such is.

Thanks for replying. I was beginning to get paranoid.

Cakes: At the point you are describing, I think the earth is supposed to be pretty much in the same shape it is today. If the ocean is in the same place it is today, that would still leave the sky above us for God to live in. He would be above the firmament that we live on.

Okay, I'll try to clear up a few things here. First, there's more than one mass of water in Hebrew cosmology. In the beginning, there was just the dark cosmic waters (see the beginning of Genesis 1). After creating day and night on day 1, God takes the these waters and separates them into an upper half and a lower half with the dome of the sky. The water above the sky is called "the waters above the firmament" and the water below is what becomes the seas and the "deep," where well water comes from. This I'm pretty sure about.

Edit: Also, we do not live "on" the firmament, we live under it, on the surface of the earth.

I think the pillars may be metaphorical, or clouds or mountains.

There are two types of pillars -- the pillars of the sky, which hold up the dome of the sky, and pillars of the earth, which are also called the foundations of the earth. And the pillars of the sky are indeed mountains, probably thought to be located near the ends of the earth.

The earth being suspended on nothing may refer to our planet being in space.

I have heard that as well, but there is nothing to suggest that the ancient Hebrews believed in a round earth.

You should check out the resource above entitled "The Flat-Earth Bible" by Robert Shadewald, especially concerning the Ethiopian book of Enoch.

Sheol may be where the the lava and such is.

Actually, Sheol is described as a place of dust and darkness. It has been suggested that it is a metaphorical extension of a person's grave. I have another section of the article partially completed, and it's about Sheol. I'll copy it below for you.

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The underworld:

Sheol, the Hebrew underworld, was located somewhere below the surface of the earth. It is sometimes translated as the "grave" or the "pit." It was the common destination for the spirits of all men who died, excepting those few taken up to heaven to live with God such as Enoch and Elijah. Much like the Sumerian/Babylonian underworld, it was described as a place of dust, darkness, silence, and forgetfulness. However, unlike the Sumerian afterlife it was assumed that the spirits did not fade away. It was not a happy place, but at the same time it wasn't the fire and brimstone hell typically imagined by Christian fundamentalists.

In much later Jewish tradition, Sheol is described as having divisions to separate those who were righteous from those who led sinful lives.

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If you have any objections, questions, or other comments, feel free to respond.

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 07-24-2005).]

In the beginning, there was just the dark cosmic waters

To me, this means space itself.

After creating day and night on day 1,

Does this mean the sun is in place? If so, how do we get night without something to block the sun?

God takes the these waters and separates them into an upper half and a lower half with the dome of the sky. The water above the sky is called "the waters above the firmament"

We know that there is no "water" above the sky. Therefore the term must be metaphorical. If so, then the other "water", below the sky, can mean anything too. Land, water or the earth as a whole.

but there is nothing to suggest that the ancient Hebrews believed in a round earth.

Being suspended in space does not mean that you have to be round.

The idea of the sky having a dome shape comes from an optical illusion.

But our atmosphere is dome shaped to us. Actually a sphere when taken as a whole, but still...

Before i go on, please tell me what result you are hoping for regarding all of this figgering.

Sheol is not hell. Sheol literally means the grave, and that's what it was. "The body is punished in Sheol, and the soul is punished in gehinnom (hell)." The body is a seperate thing from the soul, which is why it has a different destination.

As for a biblical concept of the universe, check this out: http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Age_of_the_universe.asp

I probably should have been more specific. This is about the *ancient* Hebrew cosmology. So far I haven't gotten any information relevant to that.

I do, however, intend to put the other interpretations somewhere in my notes. So thanks for what you've posted about that.

I also just noticed that I forgot to finish one of my sentences in the overview :O

Clarphimous: In the beginning, there was just the dark cosmic waters

Cakes: To me, this means space itself.

Okay then. To you, what does it mean when in Genesis 1:6 it says "God said, 'Let there be a vault between the waters, to separate water from water'... and God called the vault heaven"?

What do you think of the windows of heaven?

Clarphimous: After creating day and night on day 1,

Cakes: Does this mean the sun is in place? If so, how do we get night without something to block the sun?

Actually, no. The sun wasn't created until the fourth day. Genesis 1 shares the Babylonian belief that the sun is only a marker of the day, and not essential for day and night itself.

Clarphimous: God takes the these waters and separates them into an upper half and a lower half with the dome of the sky. The water above the sky is called "the waters above the firmament"

Cakes: We know that there is no "water" above the sky. Therefore the term must be metaphorical. If so, then the other "water", below the sky, can mean anything too. Land, water or the earth as a whole.

Or the Bible could just be scientifically inaccurate. But anyways... what do you think the waters above the sky represent? Cosmic background radiation, perhaps?

Clarphimous: but there is nothing to suggest that the ancient Hebrews believed in a round earth.

Cakes: Being suspended in space does not mean that you have to be round.

All right... so we have a flat earth suspended in space. I'm not really sure where you're going with that.

Clarphimous: The idea of the sky having a dome shape comes from an optical illusion.

Cakes: But our atmosphere is dome shaped to us. Actually a sphere when taken as a whole, but still...

Yes, that is a good point. However, I believe that this is just a coincidence.

As a side note, I do remember that the Persians (who were Zoroastrians) believed in a spherical earth, but a solid firmament like the other cultures in ancient Mesopotamia.

Cakes: Before i go on, please tell me what result you are hoping for regarding all of this figgering.

For this article in particular I was looking for the scholarly view of ancient Hebrew cosmology, but one of my goals is to show different interpretations of the Bible. So your opinion is still important, even if I disagree with it.

SpaceFalcon2001: Sheol is not hell. Sheol literally means the grave, and that's what it was. "The body is punished in Sheol, and the soul is punished in gehinnom (hell)."

Hmm... very interesting. This sounds like a little more recent than what I'm dealing with, but if you have more information on it (Gehenna in particular) please do tell.

SpaceFalcon2001: The body is a seperate thing from the soul, which is why it has a different destination.

Yes, that's dualism, right? I think that the most of the cultures in Mesopotamia were originally animists. So that would suggest that the Hebrews have gradually developed from animism to dualism. Hmm, indeed.

And thank you for the article. I'll keep that one bookmarked.

:*)

[This message has been edited by Lou Reed (edited 07-26-2005).]

Lou Reed: who translated the aremaic bible/?

Is that somehow related to this thread, or are you just asking in hopes that I know this stuff?

I really don't know much about Bible manuscripts, but I'll tell you what I know. The Old Testament, or the Hebrew scriptures, were originally written almost completely in Hebrew. I've heard that there are a few sections in Aramaic, though. As for the New Testament, some say that it was originally written in Aramaic before being translated into Greek. However, I'm not so sure if that's the case or not.

Right now I can't answer as to "who did the translations." Maybe somebody else can.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Hmm... very interesting. This sounds like a little more recent than what I'm dealing with, but if you have more information on it (Gehenna in particular) please do tell.

Theres alot of extra-biblical info (meaning more or less only extra-biblical info) on it, particularly talmudic and zohar. There's also some debate as to what it actually is. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden (Heaven), where all imperfections are purged. Some also consider another place called abaddon to be a place where truly evil souls beyond repair are destroyed/tortured untill the messiah comes and hell is destroyed (when the evil soul is as well).

quote:[quote]SpaceFalcon2001: The body is a seperate thing from the soul, which is why it has a different destination.

quote:Yes, that's dualism, right? I think that the most of the cultures in Mesopotamia were originally animists. So that would suggest that the Hebrews have gradually developed from animism to dualism.

What? No. Dualism is Heaven vrs Hell, God vrs Satan, etc. Hebrews never were Dualists, that's a christian/zoroastern ideal. Animisim is the belief that the spirit/soul is independant/seprable from the body, which is what the Hebrews believed (and still do).

There is also a small amount of belief in Reincarnation.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

: who translated the aremaic bible/?

If im not mistaken The ancient Greeks but still noone knew what the fuck it actually said because ancient greek is dumb then they found thse dead sea scrolls that translated the whole thing.



To Clarphimous. Good on you for writing this stuff. You should read the old testament and/or dantes inferno+paradise lost. Theyre excellent story books but the bible makes about as much sense as salad fingers.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

As for the New Testament, some say that it was originally written in Aramaic before being translated into Greek. However, I'm not so sure if that's the case or not.

Christians like to claim alot of things. However, the NT was originally written in Greek. How can we know this? The Jews/Non-Jews who wrote the New Testament were of a certain event called hellanism, and hellanizers knew little Hebrew. The NT only quotes the septuigent (with it's errored translation), which was still in greek at the time.

The Dead Sea Scrolls verified that the Torah had been unchanged, hebrew-wise, over these last 2000 years. There were some additional paragraphs in Job, however.

SpaceFalcon2001: What? No. Dualism is Heaven vrs Hell, God vrs Satan, etc. Hebrews never were Dualists, that's a christian/zoroastern ideal. Animisim is the belief that the spirit/soul is independant/seprable from the body, which is what the Hebrews believed (and still do).

There is also a small amount of belief in Reincarnation.

Er... I hate it when this happens. I was thinking of mind dualism, which is about philosophy. And I had read somewhere that animists believed that there was no difference between the physical things and spirit. But anyways...

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=614&letter=S

That's the article I got the guestimation of the origin of Sheol from.

'kay, I'll finish this article later. I need to write one about the next two chapters of Genesis. The webpage below is the index to the articles I'm writing. And yeah, I know I have to work on the first creation article some more.

http://disillusionary.webeve.com/bible/