Why do atheists care? [Archive]

Digital_Savior

2005-07-24, 22:32

Elfstone, this isn't the dark ages...at least not in America (don't know where YOU are).

Religion doesn't control people who do not first want to be controlled.

In regards to Christianity, in case you hadn't noticed, in America we've been taking a beating lately - media, politics, and government-wise. What we think should STAY American policy is being burned to the ground.

Everytime I see a movie, the person who is the "God fearing Christian" is always portrayed as an idiot, a fanaticist, or a blind believer. This has had a profound effect on the way Christians are viewed, because I am approached in a manner that indicates that I am an idiot, a fanaticist, or a blind believer, when nothing could be further from the truth. So, I must ask myself, "From whence does this stereotype come ?" The answer is ALWAYS the "media".

For one thing, idiots are everywhere, in every aspect of life...it is not to be confused as a plague only amongst Christian circles.

Second, I have only known a HANDFUL (among the hundreds) of Christians that believe blindly, and they are generally under the age of 18.

Last, of the Christians I know, most are educated and convicted about their faith. If you call that fanaticism, well...

We aren't stopping ANYONE from living the life they want. This IS America...a free country. I see more hatred, crime, and intolerance in this country than I do love, peace, and tolerance. What does that tell you ?

**************************************************

Nihilist - To answer your question, they have no other purpose to attack the religious than to make themselves feel better about what they fear.

Atheist's are gonna have a heyday with this post, but I honestly believe they come here to attack Christians (in particular) because they are afraid that there might actually be a God. They are pissed at Him (whom they claim does not exist) for various reasons, and they WON'T believe...it is not that they CAN'T believe (citing intelligence and rational thought as qualifiers for their unbelief).

So, they must try and make themselves feel villified in their unbelief, because it relieves guilt. If they can beat the pants off of a Christian intellectually, then they MUST be right in thinking there is no God, and therefore, they are not required to feel the burdern of the weight of their sins. If there is no God, there is no standard.

They are not trying to rid the world of fanatics, stupidity, and blind believers. They are trying to quell that gnawing feeling they have inside that there IS something bigger than them out there.

There really IS no philanthropic intention to posting here (ridding the world of us idiot Christians for the betterment of humanity). They MUST FEEL BETTER ABOUT NOT BELIEVING.

So, bring the flames, ya'll. That's what I think.

Nihilist

2005-07-24, 22:56

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

TV evangelists and islamic extremists aren't enough for you? There's also creationism, stem cell research etc...anyway, off topic.

there are plenty of godless extremists out there. are they better because they follow your line of thinking more or what?

why not condemn extremism in all its flavors?

creationism. well the truth is no one knows how humans came about. thats why the THEORY of evolution hasnt been upgraded to the law. like the law of gravity.

really, i dont see why if ppl beleive in being created vs your opinion that we evolved, matters so much. why is it so important to you that there must only be one answer, when no one KNOWS the answer.

the scientific community isnt even comfortable saying thats how it happened. but, lets say thats what happened, evolution. still doesnt disprove a god, just the bible. is it still so important to you now?

stem cell research. it is my opinion, and it is mine to hold, that from conception a fetus is a human. i think this because so far a woman hasnt given birth to a dog through copulation with a man. i dont appologize for not being at ease with killing a human for medical reasons, let alone a child.

however, this discussion is moot now.

if you were seriously behind the use of stem cells as a way to help out many terrible diseases, like i am, then you would educate yourself.

the one thing bush said during the speech h made tha was 100 percent true is that stem cells dont need to be harvested from fetus to be as viable as those are. now, at the time there was alot of doubt about that. there isnt any longer though.

while i beleive in god i also have an interest in the sciences. i subscribe to over 40 science websites via RSS/atom in thunderbird.

they have found ways to harvest/create stem cells as viable as those from a fetus from flakes of skin, for crying out loud. there is no reason to kill fetus anymore, unless you just want to do it for some reason.

now that this is possible, there shouldnt be any objections from the religous. i dont hate stem cells because theyre stem cells. i just didnt care for the way they wanted to get them. and since that hurdle has been leaped over lets get to fucking work.

it is your willfull ignorance about this subject that leads me to beleive that you use it only to beat the faithfull over the head with it. or pride yourself on some kind of enlightenment.

but now, we will have stem cells in a manner that is completly morally acceptable to everyone. and is less invasive than giving blood. everyone wins, and you can toss your bullshit about some kneejerk religious ignorance.

Nihilist

2005-07-24, 23:09

digital savior:

you made some very good points. the quintessential example of that was on another board a discussion broke out about this, and one of the more outspoken atheists said why he didnt beleive.

he was gay, and his parents were very religious and more or less disowned him over it.

so, not only did he heap his legitimate anger on his parents, but on god as well and everyone who beleived in him. look, while i dont seek to tell you who to love, i dont have any paticular affinity for gays. but if my niece turned out to be one, id love her just the same as i do now.

this guy was lashing out in anger at god for his parents ignorance, closemindedness and general fuckheadedness. thats not right.

but lets be fair about it. while there are plenty of ppl who are acting out the drama in there lives similarly to the guy i was just talking about, theres plenty of ppl who seemingly have taken a logical look at it ad just decided he doesnt exist.

either one of the reasons ppl dont beleive is fine with me.

and we also have to remember that the level of discourse on totse is generally pretty fucking low lol. theres alot of teens here who cant conprehend life outside of school yet. so its the pack mntality, being cool, going with the flow etc.

theres just alot of nasty, mouthy assholes where ever there are kids. i dont care what opinions you hold, kids are assholes by and large.

anyway, nice to see you bro.

Digital_Savior

2005-07-24, 23:31

Nihilist, first, I am a sis, not a bro...*winks*

Second, I agree with you on the point that some people have simply thought long and hard about it, and in consideration of current scientific tenets, decided that there is no God.

However, why would the subject of God even be a part of the equation, if there were not the possibility of His existence to begin with ?

To be more clear, to "rule a possibility out", you must entertain a possibility from the inception.

Why is God a consideration, if He doesn't exist at all ?

Men use science (intellectualism and logic) to disprove God exists, but they ignore the other half of their existence (spirituality and heart) to accomplish this.

Selective logic should not be the final determination...it comes back around to "fear".

If you rely solely on scientific logic to disprove God, your thought processes are extremely flawed, in my opinion.

This was a great topic, by the way. You have approached it in a logical manner, which will appeal to the masses.

Nihilist

2005-07-25, 00:18

those are some interesting points.

the big flaw as far as im concerned with most atheistic aguements about the non-existance of god is there focus. the whole arguement is pinned to one thing, based soley around one thing, and if you jerk that out from underneath them, the whole house of cards come down.

take a look around this board. most of the ideas from both sides are the same regurgitated ones thats been used for decades or centuries. for a group of ppl who pride themselves on intelligence and originality, they are incredibly unoriginal.

almost all of the talking points are based at disproving the bible. well, i hate to tell you this: but if you destroyed the bible phsically, every single copy, if theres a god he doesnt die.

disproving the bible is disproving a book. like disproving einstiens or hawkins theories/laws.

so, take away the 7 day creation thing. go out on a limb and say evolutions how we got here. i still dont see one thing telling me that there is no god.

they say big bang and evolution, others say creation and intelligent design. at the heart of it all, neither side can prove there case. that doesnt mean that just because science is more highly esteemed in some circles, that i am wrong.

it also doesnt mean that in the case that we do figure out some of the big secrets in a definate way, that god dosnt exist.

science is knowledge, often flawed, but it dosnt threaten me at all. i dont deny it. but it hasnt been proven to me that anything i beleive is wrong or simply not there.

it also seems to me, that alot of ppl are willing to latch onto anything. some say that about christians and god and heaven. and i say that about the theories, not laws, of the big bang and evolution.

devil's haircut

2005-07-25, 03:02

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

In regards to Christianity, in case you hadn't noticed, in America we've been taking a beating lately - media, politics, and government-wise. What we think should STAY American policy is being burned to the ground.

Mind posting some examples? Because it's the religious right that's in power right now, so any beating you assume your side is taking is more than likely imaginary.

Nihilist

2005-07-25, 03:51

lol.

see, this is what i love about most americans. they beleive EVERYTHING the news tells them.

bush says hes a christian. the media repeats it, and they fucking beleive it.

nevermind that the fuckers not acting like one. its just true because he says so.

hitler pandered to the catholics etc, all the while forming a religion based on a germanic play. he was obsessed with the occult and thought certain swords and other things held power because they were carried by some warrior supposedly. so guess what? hitler said he was a christian, but hold on fellas: HE WASNT!

damn him for fooling the german ppl in there blind gullibility!

sad thing is, americans are falling for it too.

most religous ppl think hes dangerous. pope john paul seriously considered him a possible antichrist. but but but, since he SAYS hes a christian, he is one [because politicians dont lie to curry favor or anything] and whatever he does christians agree with and encourage.

are you a god damned idiot?

let me see here: he lied flat out to start a war. he indiscriminatly killed tens of thousands of civilians in the ivasion, to say nothing of since then. starved and thristed them, all the while trying to get the oil flowing. this was for MONTHS. he claims piety, yet surrounds himself with jews who are more or less honorary members of mossad. a good deal of his forieng policy revolves around making sure israels comfortable, forsaking the ppl of america.

yep, sounds like a real nice guy to me.

hes hoodwinked some of the more extreme christian 'sects' and whats even funnier, hes hoodwinked the godless too. the left wing intelligensia suddenly cant see whats in front of there faces. all ability for nuance is GONE.

hes a bloodthristy politician, and hes lying! holy fuck thats a first.

between both camps, i dont think either of you could figure how to pour piss out of a jar before you drank out of it.

newsflash: hes fucking everyone. no one is immune other than his buddies and other members of the 'elite.'

is the only thing on this board a bunch of parrots?

Inti

2005-07-25, 04:02

quote:Originally posted by devil's haircut:

Mind posting some examples? Because it's the religious right that's in power right now, so any beating you assume your side is taking is more than likely imaginary.

Hear, hear!

l33t-haX0r

2005-07-25, 04:03

quote:Originally posted by The Mad Bomber:

People enjoy debates.

Plus it seems like religion is the root of alot of problems in the world.

Daz

2005-07-25, 08:56

quote:Everytime I see a movie, the person who is the "God fearing Christian" is always portrayed as an idiot, a fanaticist, or a blind believer.

Take the hint, every time i meet one in real life i get the same impression.

quote:because I am approached in a manner that indicates that I am an idiot, a fanaticist, or a blind believer, when nothing could be further from the truth.

You dedicate your life to something that you have no proof exists. Not only that, you have decided to do it through a religion created for control, any of them names sticks to you pretty damn well.

quote:So, I must ask myself, "From whence does this stereotype come ?" The answer is ALWAYS the "media".

Maybe it's the truth? simple observation, you should try it.

quote:Last, of the Christians I know, most are educated and convicted about their faith. If you call that fanaticism, well...

I call it being blind.

quote:We aren't stopping ANYONE from living the life they want. This IS America...a free country. I see more hatred, crime, and intolerance in this country than I do love, peace, and tolerance. What does that tell you ?

Haha really? then why the religous protests?

Also how do you know what people really want?

You see the things you want to see, you watch the news? it's all violence, the happy family that gets in no ones way doesn't make the 6 'o'clock news.

quote:To answer your question, they have no other purpose to attack the religious than to make themselves feel better about what they fear.

Haha, wrong, plain and simple, it is done to try and make you see how stupid you are making yourself look. It may come as a surprise but I actually pity religious people, the same way a nurse pitys a retarded kid.

quote:Atheist's are gonna have a heyday with this post, but I honestly believe they come here to attack Christians (in particular) because they are afraid that there might actually be a God.

Yes, we are going to have a heyday with your post. I believe that you are the one who is afraid, afraid that there isn't a God, afraid that your life is not being watched over by something more powerful, afraid that once you die your state of conciousness will go back to the same state as before you were born.

quote:They are pissed at Him

Hypothetically God would be genderless, however, how can i be pissed at something that doesn't exist?

quote:and they WON'T believe...it is not that they CAN'T believe

It is actually more that we don't believe.

quote:So, they must try and make themselves feel villified in their unbelief, because it relieves guilt.

Nay, it is you who is trying to feel 'villified' (that isn't a word btw) in your belief, because it would relieve responsibility. We have no need, for there is no guilt in not believing in something that doesn't exist.

quote:If they can beat the pants off of a Christian intellectually, then they MUST be right in thinking there is no God, and therefore, they are not required to feel the burdern of the weight of their sins. If there is no God, there is no standard.

So God is just a moral standard to you?

quote:They are not trying to rid the world of fanatics, stupidity, and blind believers.

Yes...yes we are.

quote:They are trying to quell that gnawing feeling they have inside that there IS something bigger than them out there.

Bigger physically? there is.

Bigger mentally? there probably is.

What exactly is this gnawing feeling we are trying to quell?

quote:So, bring the flames, ya'll. That's what I think.

You expect flames, therefore you must have some idea how blind your beliefs sound.

quote:creationism. well the truth is no one knows how humans came about. thats why the THEORY of evolution hasnt been upgraded to the law. like the law of gravity.

It is also one of the few reasons christianity is still hanging on to humanity like a corpse on life support.

quote:that from conception a fetus is a human. i think this because so far a woman hasnt given birth to a dog through copulation with a man. i dont appologize for not being at ease with killing a human for medical reasons, let alone a child.

Wtf kind of argument is that??

The question about when a fetus becomes a human is not that it might be a dog, but that we really don't know what constitutes someone to be called a human.

quote:either one of the reasons ppl dont beleive is fine with me.

People need reasons to not believe in something that has no proof of existence?

quote:However, why would the subject of God even be a part of the equation, if there were not the possibility of His existence to begin with ?

Because when we were blind to the truth and had no way of explaining things such as the weather, or the tides we figured that there was some form of higher power. Some people are still as blind.

quote:but they ignore the other half of their existence (spirituality and heart)

What exactly is spirituality and heart?

quote:the big flaw as far as im concerned with most atheistic aguements about the non-existance of god is there focus.

Heh, and the flaw with theist arguments is that there are none. I've stopped making atheist arguments becuase there is no reason to waste energy on disproving the existance of something that has no proof of existing.

quote:almost all of the talking points are based at disproving the bible.

I don't think that the bible should be argued about as if it is true. It is cleary not.

quote:well, i hate to tell you this: but if you destroyed the bible phsically, every single copy, if theres a god he doesnt die.

Was that supposed to be inspirational or something? Perhaps you haven't realised yet that God doesn't exist.

quote:so, take away the 7 day creation thing. go out on a limb and say evolutions how we got here. i still dont see one thing telling me that there is no god.

You base your arguments on the assumption that there is a God. How about you still don't see one thing telling you that there is a God.

quote:it also doesnt mean that in the case that we do figure out some of the big secrets in a definate way, that god dosnt exist.

Your assuming that he does exist.

quote:but it hasnt been proven to me that anything i beleive is wrong or simply not there.

That is because you have not proven that what you believe is there.

goldenchurchhill

2005-07-25, 09:32

i didn't read any of this but why does a nihlist(spelling) care about anything.

elfstone

2005-07-25, 10:51

quote:Originally posted by Nihilist:

there are plenty of godless extremists out there. are they better because they follow your line of thinking more or what?

why not condemn extremism in all its flavors?

Are we not talking about religion here? Of course I condemn extremism in all forms. Is that your argument about religious extremism?

quote:Originally posted by Nihilist:

creationism. well the truth is no one knows how humans came about. thats why the THEORY of evolution hasnt been upgraded to the law. like the law of gravity.

really, i dont see why if ppl beleive in being created vs your opinion that we evolved, matters so much. why is it so important to you that there must only be one answer, when no one KNOWS the answer.

the scientific community isnt even comfortable saying thats how it happened. but, lets say thats what happened, evolution. still doesnt disprove a god, just the bible. is it still so important to you now?

What is important is the truth. Evolution may not be law but trust me, the scientific community is very comfortable in believing it happened because the evidence supporting it is overwhelming. Creationism on the other hand is, in one word, garbage.

If you can't get that the truth matters to some people it's no wonder you don't think that fairytales are holding back humanity.

quote:Originally posted by Nihilist:

stem cell research. it is my opinion, and it is mine to hold, that from conception a fetus is a human. i think this because so far a woman hasnt given birth to a dog through copulation with a man. i dont appologize for not being at ease with killing a human for medical reasons, let alone a child.

however, this discussion is moot now.

if you were seriously behind the use of stem cells as a way to help out many terrible diseases, like i am, then you would educate yourself.

the one thing bush said during the speech h made tha was 100 percent true is that stem cells dont need to be harvested from fetus to be as viable as those are. now, at the time there was alot of doubt about that. there isnt any longer though.

while i beleive in god i also have an interest in the sciences. i subscribe to over 40 science websites via RSS/atom in thunderbird.

they have found ways to harvest/create stem cells as viable as those from a fetus from flakes of skin, for crying out loud. there is no reason to kill fetus anymore, unless you just want to do it for some reason.

now that this is possible, there shouldnt be any objections from the religous. i dont hate stem cells because theyre stem cells. i just didnt care for the way they wanted to get them. and since that hurdle has been leaped over lets get to fucking work.

it is your willfull ignorance about this subject that leads me to beleive that you use it only to beat the faithfull over the head with it. or pride yourself on some kind of enlightenment.

but now, we will have stem cells in a manner that is completly morally acceptable to everyone. and is less invasive than giving blood. everyone wins, and you can toss your bullshit about some kneejerk religious ignorance.

"Bullshit about some kneejerk religious ignorance"? Haha!

I mentioned exactly 3 words and you wrote an essay in the half of which you assume a lot of my beliefs and knowledge. Am I right in assuming you are a fanatic? I don't care how many scientific subscriptions you have if you choose to accept the science you like and discard the kind you don't. I'm not gonna get in this discussion cause I'm not an expert, and it's off topic.

elfstone

2005-07-25, 11:11

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Elfstone, this isn't the dark ages...at least not in America (don't know where YOU are).

Religion doesn't control people who do not first want to be controlled.

In regards to Christianity, in case you hadn't noticed, in America we've been taking a beating lately - media, politics, and government-wise. What we think should STAY American policy is being burned to the ground.

Everytime I see a movie, the person who is the "God fearing Christian" is always portrayed as an idiot, a fanaticist, or a blind believer. This has had a profound effect on the way Christians are viewed, because I am approached in a manner that indicates that I am an idiot, a fanaticist, or a blind believer, when nothing could be further from the truth. So, I must ask myself, "From whence does this stereotype come ?" The answer is ALWAYS the "media".

For one thing, idiots are everywhere, in every aspect of life...it is not to be confused as a plague only amongst Christian circles.

Second, I have only known a HANDFUL (among the hundreds) of Christians that believe blindly, and they are generally under the age of 18.

Last, of the Christians I know, most are educated and convicted about their faith. If you call that fanaticism, well...

We aren't stopping ANYONE from living the life they want. This IS America...a free country. I see more hatred, crime, and intolerance in this country than I do love, peace, and tolerance. What does that tell you ?

DS, sure it's not the dark ages. You remember religion being powerful in the dark ages yes? I don't see why you mention USA, your country isn't the whole world. I'd be the first to admit I live in a theocratic country but at least we don't have an arrogant motto like "God bless America".

The point is that when an institution like religion is providing arbitrary answers to important questions, objects to scientific progress and causes hatred between groups of people, then this is holding back humanity. Please notice that I do not mention the bible, or God here...just religion.

PS. I'd appreciate an answer in "Capitalism and Christianity" topic.

Snoopy

2005-07-25, 14:43

Religion isn't only holding back humanity, religion is dangerous to humanity. By prosecuting religious institutions, we will not only be destroying a pathetic enemy, we will also boost our engines of progress.

BaKeD_gOoDs

2005-07-25, 22:39

First off, to the poster of this topic. Why is it wrong for us atheists to argue against the belief of god? I find that most of the time, i'm defending my belief in nothing which doesn't even make sense because since I have no belief their is nothing to defend. Why should I believe in god, should be the question to you? I can't find a shred of evidence, that points in the direction of a god, nothing. You'd have to be an idiot to not see that you cannot win against this arguement.

To answer your original question. We care because religious people effect our lives everyday with their beliefs, and we are helpless against their oppression. About half the worlds wars have also been fought over religion, and the majourity of terrorist groups are usually religeous finatics, trying to target a stronghold of another religion. If everyone was an athiest, we'd stand on common ground, which is the first step to peace. We'll never achieve peace as long as there is religion. If we were all athiests, we could still have beliefs, but they wouldn't be set in stone, and rather flexible. If I explain something that is contrary to another athiests beliefs, we have a discussion to prove who is wrong or accept that we both don't know if neither has a good arguement. Christians especially, think that everything they do is the good work of the lord.

My conclusion is that religion is baseless, factless, isn't even consistant, and appears to be merely thought up with no hard evidence of anything. Anyone who believes in such a thing is a fucking moron. These same fucking morons also thought the earth was flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth. These people have been proven wrong so many times, I find it extraordinary that anyone would listen to a damn thing these people have to say from their previous track record. We have stopped progressing as a civilization, because we haven't changed our beliefs in 2000 years. We should be thinking differently about almost everything that is in the bible, but we don't, and we're paying for it.

To me, there is no such thing as a rational discussion about religion, since religion isn't rational. From what I can tell, religion is merely a cop out so you don't have to determine the right path for yourself, in life. Your just limiting your options to happiness, if you ask me.

Edit: I thought I erased that last line.

[This message has been edited by BaKeD_gOoDs (edited 07-26-2005).]

Daz

2005-07-25, 23:34

Nice post, cept you sorta posted it halfway through your last sentance http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Nemisis

2005-07-25, 23:47

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Elfstone, this isn't the dark ages...at least not in America (don't know where YOU are).

Religion doesn't control people who do not first want to be controlled.

Sorry to have to have to disagree with you yet again DS. I think there are alot of people, who have had it drilled into them, that the bible,torah,or whatever religious system they happen to follow, that they don't know any other way of thinking. Alot of them are so affraid to question their own religous beliefs, becuase they have been taught that to question is a sin.

I don't believe these people want to be controlled as such. They are just to scared not to. So yes in a way religion does control some people. Not all, but some.

devil's haircut

2005-07-26, 14:42

quote:Originally posted by Nihilist:

lol.

see, this is what i love about most americans. they beleive EVERYTHING the news tells them.

bush says hes a christian. the media repeats it, and they fucking beleive it.

nevermind that the fuckers not acting like one. its just true because he says so.

hitler pandered to the catholics etc, all the while forming a religion based on a germanic play. he was obsessed with the occult and thought certain swords and other things held power because they were carried by some warrior supposedly. so guess what? hitler said he was a christian, but hold on fellas: HE WASNT!

damn him for fooling the german ppl in there blind gullibility!

sad thing is, americans are falling for it too.

most religous ppl think hes dangerous. pope john paul seriously considered him a possible antichrist. but but but, since he SAYS hes a christian, he is one [because politicians dont lie to curry favor or anything] and whatever he does christians agree with and encourage.

are you a god damned idiot?

let me see here: he lied flat out to start a war. he indiscriminatly killed tens of thousands of civilians in the ivasion, to say nothing of since then. starved and thristed them, all the while trying to get the oil flowing. this was for MONTHS. he claims piety, yet surrounds himself with jews who are more or less honorary members of mossad. a good deal of his forieng policy revolves around making sure israels comfortable, forsaking the ppl of america.

yep, sounds like a real nice guy to me.

hes hoodwinked some of the more extreme christian 'sects' and whats even funnier, hes hoodwinked the godless too. the left wing intelligensia suddenly cant see whats in front of there faces. all ability for nuance is GONE.

hes a bloodthristy politician, and hes lying! holy fuck thats a first.

between both camps, i dont think either of you could figure how to pour piss out of a jar before you drank out of it.

newsflash: hes fucking everyone. no one is immune other than his buddies and other members of the 'elite.'

is the only thing on this board a bunch of parrots?

Lol, this is what I love about non-Americans...they think they know shit about American politics.

Bush didn't lie, he's just dumb enough to believe he was in the right when he started the war. I don't know if you've seen him talk very many times, but just by listening to his speeches, you can tell that he's not all there.

Bush believes that he is a christian...after all, according to Fox News (haha, good source) 92% of Americans believe in god, and around 80% would be classified under the christian umbrella.

The left wing knows what's going on, jackass. But what can they do? As I said, it's the right that's in power...literally, everywhere.

If there weren't so many adamant rednecks and greedy business people, Bush wouldn't be in office. But sadly, those people make up the majority of America.

LostCause

2005-07-26, 21:21

Thank you, Nihilist. You bring up a good point and one that I've wondered about a lot: Why do people care what other people believe.

But, I think it's because when we live within ourselves we feel so permeated, it's difficult to imagine that other people could possibly have a different POV. So, to see people with such wildly different philosophies and opinions could not only be intriguing but possibly threatening.

Cheers,

Lost

Nihilist

2005-07-27, 01:58

quote:Originally posted by Nemisis:

Sorry to have to have to disagree with you yet again DS. I think there are alot of people, who have had it drilled into them, that the bible,torah,or whatever religious system they happen to follow, that they don't know any other way of thinking. Alot of them are so affraid to question their own religous beliefs, becuase they have been taught that to question is a sin.

I don't believe these people want to be controlled as such. They are just to scared not to. So yes in a way religion does control some people. Not all, but some.

i had a much better reply till my fucking net dropped out and i had to restart.

bottom line, the only ppl ruled by the fear you talk about are the hardcore ultra religous, of which i personally only know 2 or 3 out of all the ppl i know. everyone else i know have evolved past that.

i would submit there are many bad ideas pounded into the heads of kids, of a religous or secular notion. what you think to be the worse of the 2 is a matter of opinion only.

for example, consumerism and political correctness. you talk about a couple of crippling, mind numbing, dumbing down philosophies, theres 2 of them. and both of those effect far more ppl than just a section such as the religous or the secularists.

and i dont think for a second that this almost imaginary fear is holding ppl from joining your line of thinking. thats incredibly arrogant.

if any religion or philosophy prevents you from exploring everything, the fault of that rests on the person. not the god or the idea. i think while you have your points, you might be a tad blinded on some areas.

Nihilist

2005-07-27, 02:25

quote:Originally posted by devil's haircut:

Lol, this is what I love about non-Americans...they think they know shit about American politics.

Bush didn't lie, he's just dumb enough to believe he was in the right when he started the war. I don't know if you've seen him talk very many times, but just by listening to his speeches, you can tell that he's not all there.

Bush believes that he is a christian...after all, according to Fox News (haha, good source) 92% of Americans believe in god, and around 80% would be classified under the christian umbrella.

The left wing knows what's going on, jackass. But what can they do? As I said, it's the right that's in power...literally, everywhere.

If there weren't so many adamant rednecks and greedy business people, Bush wouldn't be in office. But sadly, those people make up the majority of America.

i was born in florida, and reside in the united states.

you assume bush is as dumb as he appears. hes not. im not claiming hes a einstien by any means, but the guy knows the score just like another idiot did: ronny 'ketchup is a vegetable' reagan.

he didnt think he was right in the war, thats why there was so much pressure on to make the case fit. cheney visiting the cia and pressuring them to come up with the right evidence. the dossier from britian that was cooked. hell, for gods sake in order to prove the case for war, they took a reference out of a college paper written in 1993. im not calling you dumb here, but you need to do some reading on the background and lead up to the war.

fox is a bunch of right wing cranks. i couldnt give a fuck less about what they say. you get 10 thousand ppl taking a poll and then expand it to close to 290 million? if they watch fox, its pretty evident what they are before they sit there asses in front of a PC. agreed?

as i said about hitler, he played to the religous, said he was one, while planning a religion based on a german play. not to mention he and his entire upper administration were deep into the occult. sound like a christian to you? doesnt to me.

just like bush was a member of skull and bones, a literal death cult pledging alligence to a goddess, for crying out loud. andyes, he had to take the pledge to get in. then as i said about his indiscriminate and wanton destructuion of iraq, doesnt sound too christianly too me.

this may be painfull for you to admit, but youve been played. flat out fucking played. please, since im sure youll disregaurd everything im saying, google it.

as for the 'left wing' these ppl suck off the same tits as the republicans. they are apart of the problem. as buchanon and nader and perot all called them out, they are the lesser evil party.

face it, they are the same corp whores under a slightly different platform.

there are things they can do to gum up the process and force things on the republicans reguardless who has a majority, but they dont do it. why? because gtheyre too busy making sweetheart deals just like the republicans are. and, theyre afraid of sticking there necks out and taking a risk. thats why i no longer consider myself one. not only are they kind of lakcing in original ideas, they dont have much guts by and large.

perhaps if they took a chance, something would pay off. playing it safer just isnt working, as you can clearly see.

the redneck right and the enlightened left are both pawns for the parties pal. thats the simple truth. you and them are taken for granted, locked in votes gauranteed to be there. dont scoff to hard, you arent much better.

who really swings the big dicks in both parties are the same ppl that have been for decades now, and thats MONEY. any one or thing with it gets a seat at the table, the rest of us just get 'good governance.'

the parties maintina support by floating devisive political issues. not because they really do a god damned thing.

you think youre heroes are under attack and weak. they arent.

devil's haircut

2005-07-27, 04:02

This seems to be getting way off from what I was originally asking...but I try not to post in this forum most of the time, so I'm going to just drop it. Religious arguments are pointless endeavors.

Digital_Savior

2005-07-28, 21:55

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Religion isn't only holding back humanity, religion is dangerous to humanity. By prosecuting religious institutions, we will not only be destroying a pathetic enemy, we will also boost our engines of progress.

So, let me get this straight...religion is powerful enough to hold back humanity, and is DANGEROUS enough to humanity for you to want to stage a coupe against it...but it is pathetic ?

Sounds like it is pretty powerful to me...how threatened you sound bears a direct contradiction to the premise of your hate speech.

Who is really pathetic here ?

Daz

2005-07-28, 23:31

The person who is living their life believing in fairy tales, IE: you.

LostCause

2005-07-28, 23:45

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, let me get this straight...religion is powerful enough to hold back humanity, and is DANGEROUS enough to humanity for you to want to stage a coupe against it...but it is pathetic ?

Sounds like it is pretty powerful to me...how threatened you sound bears a direct contradiction to the premise of your hate speech.

Who is really pathetic here ?

Snoopy believes that religion is a manmade institution created to control the populace and keep us in fear and doubt about ourselves. And because of this it's a mockery of any supposed god and a mockery of humanity. This is not an uncommon belief.

You and Snoopy obviously have a clash of beliefs. I wouldn't try to condemn each other for having different beliefs. It's only going to make things worse.

Cheers,

Lost

Rust

2005-07-29, 00:44

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, let me get this straight...religion is powerful enough to hold back humanity, and is DANGEROUS enough to humanity for you to want to stage a coupe against it...but it is pathetic ?

Sounds like it is pretty powerful to me...how threatened you sound bears a direct contradiction to the premise of your hate speech.

Who is really pathetic here ?

Something powerful has nothing to do with it being pathetic or not. I can think Hitler was pathetic and yet he undoubtedly held a position of great power.

This is you twisting what he said to serve your purpose.

Pathetic:

1. Arousing or capable of arousing sympathetic sadness and compassion: “The old, rather shabby room struck her as extraordinarily pathetic” (John Galsworthy).

2. Arousing or capable of arousing scornful pity.

Digital_Savior

2005-07-29, 01:01

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Something powerful has nothing to do with it being pathetic or not. I can think Hitler was pathetic and yet he undoubtedly held a position of great power.

This is you twisting what he said to serve your purpose.

Pathetic:

1. Arousing or capable of arousing sympathetic sadness and compassion: “The old, rather shabby room struck her as extraordinarily pathetic” (John Galsworthy).

2. Arousing or capable of arousing scornful pity.

"These adjectives describe what inspires or deserves pity. Something pathetic elicits sympathetic sadness and compassion: “a most earnest... entreaty, addressed to you in the most pathetic tones of the voice so dear to you” (Charles Dickens). Both pitiful and pitiable apply to what is touchingly sad: “She told a most pitiful story” (Samuel Butler). “The emperor had been in a state of pitiable vacillation” (William Hickling Prescott). Sometimes these three terms connote contemptuous pity, as for what is hopelessly inept or inadequate: a school with pathetic academic standards. “To be guided by second-hand conjecture is pitiful” (Jane Austen). “That cold accretion called the world, which, so terrible in the mass, is so unformidable, even pitiable, in its units” (Thomas Hardy). Piteous applies to what cries out for pity: “They... made piteous lamentation to us to save them” (Daniel Defoe). Lamentable suggests the evocation of pity mixed with sorrow: “Tell thou the lamentable tale of me,/And send the hearers weeping to their beds” (Shakespeare)."

My understanding of this word not only stems from it's definition, but from the context in which is it used. In this context, it is reasonable to assume that by using the word "pathetic", Snoopy is saying that religion is not a "formiddable enemy". If you have derived something else from what he has said, then that is your problem.

"Sympathetic sadness and compassion" is not a common reaction to something one views as a powerful antagonist.

I don't need to twist anything...he basically said that religion is pathetic (and therefore not a formiddable opponent), yet pumped it up to be a formiddable adversary, all in the same sentence.

My reference to HIM being pathetic was that he had contradicted himself, and shouldn't be casting stones until he can give a logical rendition of his point (as opposed to what we got).

But thanks for playing the semantics game, once again, and not actually dealing with the topic. Bravo.

Digital_Savior

2005-07-29, 01:04

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

Snoopy believes that religion is a manmade institution created to control the populace and keep us in fear and doubt about ourselves. And because of this it's a mockery of any supposed god and a mockery of humanity. This is not an uncommon belief.

You and Snoopy obviously have a clash of beliefs. I wouldn't try to condemn each other for having different beliefs. It's only going to make things worse.

Cheers,

Lost

While that is all heartwarming and such, it has nothing to do with what I posted.

I don't care if his opinion differs from mine...he is entitled to such privileges. (In fact, isn't it this very characteristic that makes forums like My God function ?)

There was no condemnation of beliefs in MY post, whereas there WAS in his.

Digital_Savior

2005-07-29, 01:13

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

The person who is living their life believing in fairy tales, IE: you.

*wonders if there is going to be any chastising for THIS*

Rust

2005-07-29, 01:24

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

My understanding of this word not only stems from it's definition, but from the context in which is it used. In this context, it is reasonable to assume that by using the word "pathetic", Snoopy is saying that religion is not a "formiddable enemy". If you have derived something else from what he has said, then that is your problem.

How is it my problem? I didn't assume anything, YOU did. You assume it referred to it not being a formidable enemy, power-wise so that's YOUR problem, not mine.

quote:

"Sympathetic sadness and compassion" is not a common reaction to something one views as a powerful antagonist.

There are many interpretations of what is "powerful", being able to fool people isn't a common one. So you assume he means it was "powerful" for fooling people, who says he does?

I can perfectly believe that religion as a whole is dangerous to humanity because it fools men. That doesn't mean I cannot believe it is illogical and unreasonable, and thus deserving of pity. That could very well be what Snoopy meant.

quote:

I don't need to twist anything...he basically said that religion is pathetic (and therefore not a formiddable opponent), yet pumped it up to be a formiddable adversary, all in the same sentence.

My reference to HIM being pathetic was that he had contradicted himself, and shouldn't be casting stones until he can give a logical rendition of his point (as opposed to what we got).

You did twist what he said since he never said it was powerful. That's the definition of twisting words!

quote:

But thanks for playing the semantics game, once again, and not actually dealing with the topic. Bravo.

My post was a REPLY to yours. If mine didn't deal with the topic, then neither does yours.

Furthermore, I don't have to deal with the topic at hand on ANY of my posts. That's not a requirement for posting here.

Also, you saying this is "Semantics" is clearly indicative of your tactics. It is completely relevant to argue that your post is illogical since it being "dangerous" doesn't mean it cannot be pathetic. This is not "semantics" but logic. Your post was illogical.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-29-2005).]

Digital_Savior

2005-07-29, 01:28

quote:Originally posted by Nemisis:

Sorry to have to have to disagree with you yet again DS. I think there are alot of people, who have had it drilled into them, that the bible,torah,or whatever religious system they happen to follow, that they don't know any other way of thinking. Alot of them are so affraid to question their own religous beliefs, becuase they have been taught that to question is a sin.

I don't believe these people want to be controlled as such. They are just to scared not to. So yes in a way religion does control some people. Not all, but some.

No, not at all. No apology needed...in case you hadn't noticed, this is always the verdict. *laughs*

Anyway, you think that people have been basically brainwashed, and that they are too scared to think for themselves...so, why don't we just narrow this down a bit.

About WHICH religion are you referring, and in which region of the world ?

I will speak about Christians in America, since that is what I relate to most.

I DON'T KNOW ANYONE THAT FITS THE DESCRIPTION YOU JUST GAVE. Not a single person.

There are MANY people who claim to be Christian and aren't. There are many people who are Christian, but are terrible stewards of their faith. There are people that are Christians, and actually follow its tenets pretty closely.

I have NEVER met a Christian that "had it drilled into them", and that they "don't know any other way of thinking. A lot of them are so afraid to question their own religous beliefs, becuase they have been taught that to question is a sin."

This actually sounds like Catholicism to me, which is not Christianity, it is a religion based on Christian theology.

I have also not seen a lot of "fear" in regards to changing one's personal religion in America.

So, can you please clarify in which direction (which religions, which countries) your opinion is pointing towards ?

Digital_Savior

2005-07-29, 01:41

quote:How is it my problem? I didn't assume anything, YOU did. You assume it referred to it not being a formidable enemy, power-wise so that's YOUR problem, not mine.

Because you decided to take it up with me, as if it were the most preposterous thing on earth for me to think this is what he meant.

quote:There are many interpretations of what is "powerful", being able to fool people isn't a common one. So you assume he means it was "powerful" for fooling people, who says he does?

"Fooling people" or no, people are religious worldwide. Is this NOT powerful ?

I assumed this, based on the way he wrote it. That's all. Only he can confirm whether or not that is what he meant, not YOU. I was responding to how I perceived it.

quote:I can perfectly believe that religion as a whole is dangerous to humanity because it fools men. That doesn't mean I cannot believe it is illogical and unreasonable, and thus deserving of pity. That could very well be what Snoopy meant.

You are entitled to believe whatever you wish, just as he is. That wasn't the issue.

How is fooling people dangerous ? Yet you won't concede that fooling people into thinking abortion is perfectly ok (health/mental wise) is not dangerous ? If that is the premise for your belief system [that everything that is fooling people is dangerous, and should therefore be exterminated], then we should just blow up the whole world.

From what I know of you here on the board, PITY is not your first reaction to something that you find pathetic, or disagree with. And I have observed in my time on this planet, that most people aren't that way, either.

While he could have meant that, that is not likely, which is why I came to the assumption that I did.

quote:You did twist what he said since he never said it was powerful. That's the definition of twisting words!

No. He never used those exact words. What of it ? We interpret and derive things from EVERYTHING that is ever read or said. Why am I being called out for this, when EVERYONE is guilty of such a charge ?

That is not twisting, that is perceiving. That is what I perceived him to mean, based on how it was written. I didn't need to twist anything.

quote:My post was a REPLY to yours. If mine didn't deal with the topic, then neither does yours.

Furthermore, I don't have to deal with the topic at hand on ANY of my posts. That's not a requirement for posting here.

And my post was a reply to HIS, which was ON TOPIC.

And no, you don't have to stick to the topic.

Which you remind us of, every single time you post.

Rust

2005-07-29, 02:01

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Because you decided to take it up with me, as if it were the most preposterous thing on earth for me to think this is what he meant

It IS preposterous to imply that because he feels religion is dangerous, it cannot be pathetic. Anything else is a figment of your imagination, because that's the only thing I dealt with in my initial post.

quote:"Fooling people" or no, people are religious worldwide. Is this NOT powerful ?

I assumed this, based on the way he wrote it. That's all. Only he can confirm whether or not that is what he meant, not YOU. I was responding to how I perceived it.

It could be powerful, and it could not be. Yes, it would be up to him to confirm or deny which is exactly why I never said it couldn't be.

I said that just because he feels it is dangerous does not mean he cannot feel it is pathetic. Nothing else.

quote:You are entitled to believe whatever you wish, just as he is. That wasn't the issue.

How is fooling people dangerous ? Yet you won't concede that fooling people into thinking abortion is perfectly ok (health/mental wise) is not dangerous ? If that is the premise for your belief system [that everything that is fooling people is dangerous, and should therefore be exterminated], then we should just blow up the whole world.

From what I know of you here on the board, PITY is not your first reaction to something that you find pathetic, or disagree with. And I have observed in my time on this planet, that most people aren't that way, either.

While he could have meant that, that is not likely, which is why I came to the assumption that I did.

Again, more assumptions. Did I every say anything of the sort? No. I just gave a hypothetical example of what I "COULD" believe.

And you're absolutely incorrect, pity MUST be the first reaction to something we find pathetic, because "pathetic" is something "Arousing or capable of arousing scornful pity".

quote:No. He never used those exact words. What of it ? We interpret and derive things from EVERYTHING that is ever read or said. Why am I being called out for this, when EVERYONE is guilty of such a charge ?

That is not twisting, that is perceiving. That is what I perceived him to mean, based on how it was written. I didn't need to twist anything.

You are twisting since you don't know what he meant, yet already are arguing against it. It is a strawman, which is the exemplification of twisting words.

quote:And my post was a reply to HIS, which was ON TOPIC.

And no, you don't have to stick to the topic.

Which you remind us of, every single time you post.

Did I say your reply was not on topic? No. So what the fuck does that have anything to do with it?

And, you're childishness is duly noted, as always.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-29-2005).]

Fanglekai

2005-07-29, 02:24

Just to point out something from earlier, the THEORY of evolution hasn't become a LAW because theories don't become laws. Laws are statements of regularity, equations, mathematical probabilities that have been shown to be as true as can be. Gravity is a law. Evolution is a law as far as many are concerned because in the 7 generations of scientists since Darwin it has been shown time and time again. Evolutionary theory, however, is not a law and never will be. Theories contain laws for explanation, because that's what they're used for. Theories are not laws. It does not go hypothetis => theory => law. that is 3rd grade science.

Atheism isn't a lack of belief. Atheists have beliefs. They just choose not to believe in whatever ideas theists believe in. Since none of it can truly be proven, it's all faith. However, I'd rather not judge and say since you don't believe something you're going to a place of fire and eternal torment just because you weren't born into an area where the religion is prominant.

If there be a God, and he be all-knowing, then He cannot fault me for the life He gave me, and the choices He knew I'd make as a result of the circumstances.

If God sees into the hearts of men and knows all men, then he understands all men, and with understanding comes sympathy, but since he KNOWS it must be empathy. Eternal empathy doesn't send people to suffer when it can stop it. Sorry, doesn't work that way.

Drahzar

2005-07-29, 02:53

quote:Originally posted by Fanglekai:

Just to point out something from earlier, the THEORY of evolution hasn't become a LAW because theories don't become laws. Laws are statements of regularity, equations, mathematical probabilities that have been shown to be as true as can be. Gravity is a law. Evolution is a law as far as many are concerned because in the 7 generations of scientists since Darwin it has been shown time and time again. Evolutionary theory, however, is not a law and never will be. Theories contain laws for explanation, because that's what they're used for. Theories are not laws. It does not go hypothetis => theory => law. that is 3rd grade science.

Actually, gravity is both a law and a theory. The law is that things fall, that's it. Laws are general statements based on observations. The theory seeks to explain why they fall, how fast they fall, etc... So gravity is a theory and a law, but most of the time when people talk about the laws of gravity, they really mean the theory. So the Theory of Gravity is a theory, just like the Theory of Evolution. Theories dont become laws if they have enough evidence, they're two different things.

I'll give a quick summary about my beliefs. I don't believe in God. There could well be a being that started the universe, but i dont really know how the universe came to be, and i dont see how it's possible to know if there is an allpowerful being out there.

I don't see anything wrong with religious belief, if you want to believe in god, work to be a good christian, etc... i'm fine with that. But organized religion IS dangerous. The christian church has been dragged out of the dark ages by science, with the flat earth theory, with galileo, organized religion is harmful to humanity as a whole.

One thing I find is that christians dont question their beliefs enough. A lot of christians like to pick and choose what they believe from the bible. They believe the believable stuff and reject all the 6 day creation, 6000 year old earth stuff. The thing is, just because something is believable doesn't mean it happened. Instead of looking for evidence that anything in the bible happened, they just assume that anything that hasnt been disproven is true.

Just some random points about religion, mainly christianity, any questions?

LostCause

2005-07-29, 09:22

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

While that is all heartwarming and such, it has nothing to do with what I posted.

I don't care if his opinion differs from mine...he is entitled to such privileges. (In fact, isn't it this very characteristic that makes forums like My God function ?)

There was no condemnation of beliefs in MY post, whereas there WAS in his.

I didn't mean to single you out, Digital. I was only speaking specifically to you because Snoopy doesn't at all care, and I think you do a bit. I'm just saying I wouldn't invest much energy you put into arguing, and the way you speak does sound condescending. So to someone who is very sort of apathetic to your opinion anyways, sort of chastizing him (and you are) is a waste of time.

Of course, if you see there something good and informational coming out of it, by all means, continue.

Cheers,

Lost

Nihilist

2005-07-30, 14:13

quote:Originally posted by Drahzar:

Actually, gravity is both a law and a theory. The law is that things fall, that's it. Laws are general statements based on observations. The theory seeks to explain why they fall, how fast they fall, etc... So gravity is a theory and a law, but most of the time when people talk about the laws of gravity, they really mean the theory. So the Theory of Gravity is a theory, just like the Theory of Evolution. Theories dont become laws if they have enough evidence, they're two different things.

I'll give a quick summary about my beliefs. I don't believe in God. There could well be a being that started the universe, but i dont really know how the universe came to be, and i dont see how it's possible to know if there is an allpowerful being out there.

I don't see anything wrong with religious belief, if you want to believe in god, work to be a good christian, etc... i'm fine with that. But organized religion IS dangerous. The christian church has been dragged out of the dark ages by science, with the flat earth theory, with galileo, organized religion is harmful to humanity as a whole.

One thing I find is that christians dont question their beliefs enough. A lot of christians like to pick and choose what they believe from the bible. They believe the believable stuff and reject all the 6 day creation, 6000 year old earth stuff. The thing is, just because something is believable doesn't mean it happened. Instead of looking for evidence that anything in the bible happened, they just assume that anything that hasnt been disproven is true.

Just some random points about religion, mainly christianity, any questions?

wrong.

first of all yea organized religions, once they reach a power threshhold can be, and sadly often do become dangerous.

the truth is, you can say that about any man made hiearchial institution.

most of the things youre saying are the CATHOLIC church. please lay blame where its due.

by 'questioning there beleifs enough' im assuming you mean stop believing in god by the totality of your thought.

believe it or not, most christians dont just blindly follow all the things laid out in the bible.