heres an essay i wrote last about why im an atheist, i think that here would be a good place to post it so we could discuss flaws and points.

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Ok...Ive said i was athiest to ppl and then they are like "HOW DARE YOU! YOU WILL BURN IN HELL!" Then I just shut up and dont say anything else. People wont listen to me and wont have anything to do with anyone who doesnt believe in god, and that annoys me when people do that.

And one more thing, im not trying to make you athiest, if you believe in god i respect that and keep doing it if it makes you happy. Im just writing why i DONT believe in god at all.

So heres where i get to say why i dont believe in god.

First reason: I dont believe in god because there isnt a reason too. Why do we pray to a god who doesnt answer back? Sure, miracles happen. Take my guitar teacher for example. He had cancer all throughout his body. The doctors were sure he was gonna die. He was on his death bed, when miraculesly (did i spell that right?) the cancer went away COMPLETELY. Now he believes in god. But i dont think it was god who made the cancer go away. If god could do that, why doesnt he do that for everyone? Why doesnt god make the world more peaceful as opposed the mess we're in today? Yea yea, freewill, but i will get to that later.

Second reason: I think religeon was made up to explain the mysteries of life. Religeon was made up a looooooooooong time ago. Thats obvious. People back then never heard of evolution or hawking radiation or anything like that. People wondered where life came from, couldnt answer it scientifically because they simply didnt have the means to, and came up with a god. God created life...BOOM! The "where does life come from" question was answered. Nowadays we know it was evolution and that life formed when certain chemicals mixed together by chance. Of course, there are gonna be people who are stubborn and will continue to think god created man. THey are just in denial that this has been proved WRONG!

Third reason: Religeon is just a set of guidelines. Look at the ten commandments. That stuff is common sense. You find most of that crap in our constitution (i dont know about adultry, thats morality). "you must except jesus christ as your savior blah blah blah" Garret M gave a good reason not to. Because Jesus may have been a really nice person, but he is NOT the son of god. Sure, the bible says so, but why are you (the god believers) so willing to base your life on a book, thats over thousands of years old, that has LOTS of things that cant be proven. What cant be proven? The existance of god for starters. And as i mentioned before, things have been proved wrong, such as god created life and this planet.

Fourth Reason: I think God was invented to give meaning to our existance. If you think about it, our main purpose in life is to reproduce. Thats it. Thats what ALL animals do. Even bacteria. There is NO meaning to our existance. We arn't essential to anything. We're not really that important AT ALL. Thinking about that gives you an uncomfortable feeling, so we resort to god to give meaning. He created us, and our meaning is to love and obey him/her/it. It makes you feel comfortable, right? Thought so...



Your god supposedly has three characteristics. He is all good, all knowing, and all powerful. He could send you to mars and back in a flash if he wanted to. But theres a problem...

That being that he cant possibly be all three characteristics. God is all good, right? Then why is the world such a mess? Why did the holocaust happen, the 9/11 attacks, other horrible, sick stuff? Oh right, free will. We can do whatever we want. First of all, i think thats a quick fix to a major problem. Earthquakes, tornados, volcanos, all of them cannot possibly be our fault. Cancer (barring cancer from bad habits) cant be our fault! Now your argument is probably "but thats gods way of punishing us!" Then why do little babies, who havent had a chance yet to sin, get punished!? How would you like it if the courts punished your baby for a crime you did? That wouldnt be fair, would it? A good god would never do such a horrible thing.

God also cant be all powerful. He would fix the stuff that we didnt cause, such as earthquakes or volcanos. So, god cant be all powerful or he cant be all good. If he was all good, he would fix these problems in an instant but he cant because he isnt all powerful, or hes all powerful but doesnt want to fix these things because hes not all good. Its either one or the other.

And if you think about it, the world would just bea MUCH better place without religeon. The holocaust wouldnt have happened, the 9/11 attacks wouldnt have happened (they attacked us because they hate chrstians and jews), the romans wouldnt have crucified catholics, and there would be much less all around violence towards other religeons.

One more thing, if your thinking god exists simply because millions of people say so, your wrong. Millions of people thought the earth was flat, but they were wrong.

So, i think these are pretty valid reasons on why NOT to believe in god. Sure, i admit theres no %100 proof that god doesnt exist, but theres enough evidence against him.

If you can think of things to prove me wrong, go ahead.

And once again, believing god is %100 your choice, and im not out to make an athiest out of you. I wrote this to state my reasons without being told to shut up.

Shut up.

This was an essay?

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

This was an essay?

I certainly hope it was an essay on a forum. Any teacher beyond third grade would have failed him on writing style alone.

Please, leave this arguement to those of us suffeciently erudite to represent our side well.

*starts a slow clap*

QUOTE Originally posted by Some Old Drunk Guy:

First reason: I dont believe in god because there isnt a reason too. Why do we pray to a god who doesnt answer back? Sure, miracles happen.[/b

Interesting statements:

#1. God dont answer

#2. "Sure, miracles happen"

[b] Take my guitar teacher for example. He had cancer all throughout his body. The doctors were sure he was gonna die. He was on his death bed, when miraculesly (did i spell that right?) the cancer went away COMPLETELY. Now he believes in god.

You say, "now he believes in God", but earlier you say, "I dont believe in god because there isnt a reason too"

Apparently it was reason enough for your guitar teacher.

But i dont think it was god who made the cancer go away. If god could do that, why doesnt he do that for everyone? Why doesnt god make the world more peaceful as opposed the mess we're in today? Yea yea, freewill, but i will get to that later.

Ultimately, this might fit in the "freewill" catagory, but before that, try exploring the Doctrine of Original Sin & the Curse. Also, i read recently that a good way to understand Genesis, was to read Revelations comparing the two. And a good way to understanding Revelations, is to read Genesis and compare the two. I have read both, so i think i see what that person was getting at, but i have not tried this technique yet. You are probably thinking that this comment is "out from left field", but Revelations does talk about when God will rid the earth of evil, and restore it to the Perfect Creation. The fact that this has not happened yet is what makes it possible to catagorize this into the freewill arguement.

Second reason: I think religeon was made up to explain the mysteries of life.

Such as...? Origins? Death? Birth?

And you think that making up/inventing a God, answers these questions? As many kids (even in this forum) have asked; "Where did God come from?"

To my knowledge, all religions except the Judeao/Christian portray their god(s) as having come from chaos. To my knowledge, only the God of the Bible is eternal. But if you think about it, something or someone had to exist forever... either matter/energy, or God.

Religeon was made up a looooooooooong time ago. Thats obvious. People back then never heard of evolution or hawking radiation or anything like that.

I'm not sure what hawking radiation is, but that's ok...doesnt matter.

However, the only way that we could know for sure why "religions were made up", would be to go back in time and ask someone. But this is the same thing as evolution.. we cant go back in time and observe "fish to philosopher".

People wondered where life came from, couldnt answer it scientifically because they simply didnt have the means to, and came up with a god. God created life...BOOM!

Back to a previous point, "And you think that making up/inventing a God, answers these questions? As many kids (even in this forum) have asked; 'Where did God come from?'"

The "where does life come from" question was answered. Nowadays we know it was evolution and that life formed when certain chemicals mixed together by chance.

Chemicals/chance and evolution as the origin of life, have not been proven. They are the "best guess" of a naturalistic origin, so far. And the origin of those chemicals are an even larger guess.

Of course, there are gonna be people who are stubborn and will continue to think god created man. THey are just in denial that this has been proved WRONG!

Sorry, but it has not been proven. And this is not 'denial' speaking, nor stubborness.

Third reason: Religeon is just a set of guidelines. Look at the ten commandments. That stuff is common sense.

I'll give you the fact that the 4th - 10th Commandments COULD be common sense. And even the 2nd Commandment is not overly different from a belief in god(s) getting pissed at being 'bad mouthed', and exacting revenge. But the 1st and 3rd Commandments are above common sense.

On an interesting note; Did you ever notice that the first two Commandments are about our relationship to God, and the 4th through the 10th are about our relationship with other people? AND the 3rd Commandment is a binding or tying Commandment between God and man... both linking and seperating? Not to mention, since we are to put God first, this is reflected in the First two Commandments?

You find most of that crap in our constitution (i dont know about adultry, thats morality)

Interesting, that you find most of that "crap" in the constitution... ummmm, could it be that all the founding fathers (ok, there were one or two that are questionable) were Christian, and took most, if not all the principles from the Bible and/or Christian doctrine?



"you must except jesus christ as your savior blah blah blah" Garret M gave a good reason not to. Because Jesus may have been a really nice person, but he is NOT the son of god. Sure, the bible says so, but why are you (the god believers) so willing to base your life on a book, thats over thousands of years old,

And you base the truth of your life on your 15 or so years of age? And disbelieve in the Divinity of Jesus the Christ based on Garret M (whoever he is)?

True, IF Jesus was just a man, and not the Son of the Living God, then Christianity is just useless as atheism... meaning, there is no point to anything. And it also lays to question, some validity of Judaism (and Islam).

Funny, but it seems to me that the god(s) of all the rest of the religions, are quite tolerant of other god(s) existing... which means only two possibilities left (if the God of the Bible is not the True God):

Either there are many gods, in which case, it does not matter what someone believes.

Or

there is no god(s) whatsoever, and nothing matters.... (i'm not going to go into religions like Budhism, because i need to use other examples/arguements... and so far, on TOTSE, i dont think i have ever address Budhism, mainly because it must be worded exactly correct, since many principles of Budhism are similar to teachings of Christianity. If it is stated even slightly wrong, it could cement the misunderstanding as an understanding...and vice versa)



But, if the God of the Bible is the Living God, then you and Garret M (whoever he is) have a bit of rethinking.



that has LOTS of things that cant be proven. What cant be proven? The existance of god for starters. And as i mentioned before, things have been proved wrong, such as god created life and this planet.

No, again, it hasnt been proven wrong. It is opposite sides of the same coin.

Fourth Reason: I think God was invented to give meaning to our existance. If you think about it, our main purpose in life is to reproduce. Thats it. Thats what ALL animals do. Even bacteria. There is NO meaning to our existance.

I realize that alittle further down, you do answer this question: How does inventing God give meaning to our existance?

However, before i address the answer you already gave, i just want to point out something that you say above:

You say that there is no meaning to our existance, but you also say that our main purpose is to reproduce... then you go on to say that it is our only purpose by saying "that's it".

From your evolutionary origins perspective, what is the reason for the "will to live"? Your reason for animal (orginisms, actually) reproduction? Why does evolution drive the "will to survive"?

We arn't essential to anything. We're not really that important AT ALL. Thinking about that gives you an uncomfortable feeling, so we resort to god to give meaning. He created us, and our meaning is to love and obey him/her/it. It makes you feel comfortable, right? Thought so...

OH NO!! I've never thought about that, but ya, your right, we are not important.. time for sepiku (sp?)... sorry, just kidding.

First, i'll start with my feelings:

Actually, no. It makes me extremely uncomfortable. It leave a small amount of doubt, as to whether i am saved or not (i know that i am saved, but i know this from/for a different reason than i am referring to here).

Not only that, but my (earthly speaking) sinful self, does not want a God... this is the human nature in all of us... if a Christian denies this, then he is at the level of the apostles in trusting the Lord, but is at the level of a newborn infant in knowledge of God's Law and the gift of the Salvation of Christ (all in all, that actually sounds pretty desirable, but it is not...growth is much better.. although, that much Trust without the hinderance of Spiritual Knowledge... NO, growth IS better).

Second, i actually thought you were going with something like the first two on this list.. i left in some of the others because i thought they were interesting (which i copied from a website..i think this Professor is Agnostic or Atheist--even though this is not overtly reflective of the rest of what i read from him...but i'm not sure, i havent seen that he comes out to say what he is):

"Myth: Religion is just a means of avoiding the reality of death.

Reality: How come Judaism lacked any real concept of an afterlife for millennia? And how come religious martyrs faced death willingly?

Myth: Religion is wish fulfillment

Reality: Who exactly wished for restrictions on personal conduct?

Myth: Religion serves the interests of the power elite

Reality: How come Christianity, Islam, and Mormonism arose and grew in the face of persecution? Nazism, which really did propose a religion based on the worship of power, dismissed Christianity as a vehicle by which the weak hobbled the strong.



Myth: Religious believers once taught the earth is flat and the universe was tiny.

Reality: Ptolemy's Almagest, the definitive model before Copernicus, states explicitly that compared to the sphere of the fixed stars, the earth is merely a point. When Ptolemy's Geographia resurfaced around 1400, its description of a spherical earth and map projections aroused not a flicker of opposition. The myth of the flat earth seems to be largely the result of a 19th century slander campaign (in part a reaction to anti-intellectualism among Christians, but that's a topic for the other page).

Myth: Religious believers lack a social conscience.

Reality: Who runs the food pantry in your home town, a church or the ACLU? If someone in your town needs help in a hurry, are they most likely to get it from a social agency or the Salvation Army?

Your god supposedly has three characteristics. He is all good, all knowing, and all powerful. He could send you to mars and back in a flash if he wanted to. But theres a problem...

That being that he cant possibly be all three characteristics. God is all good, right? Then why is the world such a mess? Why did the holocaust happen, the 9/11 attacks, other horrible, sick stuff? Oh right, free will. We can do whatever we want.

First, let me say that, although these are important points, i think you may have two different arguments combined into one. It is understandable, because they are sorta (well, very) related.

They are:

1. The problem with evil in the world

2. Freewill vs. predestination

#2 has been argued back and forth, time and time again.. i suggest that you read a few of the past threads (some are labeled and some just sorta happen as the threads progress). If you dont want to read, or look for the pasts ones, wait a week or two, and i'm sure another will start up again.. maybe even start a thread of your own on the subject... i'm too worn out to work on that one again right now...sorry.

As for 1. The problem with evil in the world, I'm going to just do a very brief reply to it. It has to do with Original Sin and Curse. The Curse wont be lifted until all that are to be saved, have been. Original Sin and the Curse are where freewill vs. 'predestination/God's knowledge/God's power/God's benevolence'

or perhaps

'freewill/predestination vs. 'God's knowledge/God's power/God's benevolence' comes into "play".

First of all, i think thats a quick fix to a major problem. Earthquakes, tornados, volcanos, all of them cannot possibly be our fault. Cancer (barring cancer from bad habits) cant be our fault!

Actually, yes, they can be our fault, since Original Sin is (according to the Bible) where these things entered the world. But, again, this goes back to the "freewill vs. God's Nature" arguement.

Now your argument is probably "but thats gods way of punishing us!

Actually, i dont think that earthquakes and such are necessarily a punishment. I think they are a result of a "Sin Cursed world"

" Then why do little babies, who havent had a chance yet to sin, get punished!? How would you like it if the courts punished your baby for a crime you did? That wouldnt be fair, would it? A good god would never do such a horrible thing.

Um, what is fair about us deciding fairness? And with Original Sin, the chance for us to sin yet, was already taken from all of us. If you think of it in terms of a baby born to a mom on crack. That baby did not have "the chance" to smoke crack, but still has to live(or die) with/from the results of crack, because of the "sins" of the mother.

God also cant be all powerful. He would fix the stuff that we didnt cause, such as earthquakes or volcanos.

Who said that He would fix that stuff? (Just incase you didnt know, He did).

So, god cant be all powerful or he cant be all good. If he was all good, he would fix these problems in an instant

Who says? Define 'all good'... use the "omniscience dictionary", please... naw, nevermind, none of us would be able to understand that dictionary anyway... except for maybe Snoopy.

Let me try to relate it in a different way:

Suppose that you are a dad and you bought your kid a brand new go cart. You told the kid the rules that you want him to obey. Let's say that two of the rules were, "do not burn donuts" and "no driving it inside the garage, except to take it out and to put it away". One day you come home and you find black circles inside the garage, and the go-cart with a dented rim (about the size and shape of the support post)....

Do you go and fix the buggy right away, or wait? Do you relocate the support beam?

Now, let's say that after a reasonable waiting period and punishment, you fix the go-cart. Because you were a kid at one time, you know that the kid probably has not learned his/her lesson, but being the good and loving dad that you are, you have to let the kid make another mistake... This time, more circles in the garage, and a hole in the wall of the garage... Does this mean that it is time to build a bigger garage.. or perhaps, tear down the garage? Hurry up, and fix the go-cart?

(Most dads at that point, would get rid of the go-cart..and consider getting rid of the kid LOL... and in actuallity, according to the Bible, that is exactly how God reacted.. Noah's Flood, remember... I know, omniscients.. ya, ya..were on the basics right now)..



For the sake of this story, let's say that you are willing to let the kid keep his go-cart. Your not going to fix it right away, and you will most likely put more serious rules and consequences into effect. And for the sake of this story, you definitely would not fix the go-cart right away, waiting until the kid has grown up enough to be trusted. And might even leave the hole unfixed as a reminder.

Now, to try to put this more into a Biblical perspective, those "more serious rules and consequences" that you put into effect... let's say that there were so many, and they had to be perfectly, and completely obeyed (and you knew that there was no possible way that they could be followed completely and perfectly... except by you). The kid tried and tried and tried. The kid thought that he fulfilled all those requirements, but when you showed him that he didnt, the kid went back to trying somemore. After some time, you went and did what was required, for your child, and said that now, since all is right, he could have the cart back again. Even though you know that the kid is gonna mess up again...

You still leave the hole in the wall, as a reminder; with the promise that someday (that you have already determined, but not revealed) you will fix the garage and both of you can forget the whole thing...

I hope that this story made a little sense about the evil in the world..and also, maybe the freewill thing.

but he cant because he isnt all powerful, or hes all powerful but doesnt want to fix these things because hes not all good. Its either one or the other.

I hope the above story kinda shows that what is good, and what is timely, is determined by the Father.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with other members of this forum, but Rust has very good arguements that agree with what you have said. One thing that Rust has added, that i didnt see in your, is that God could have done things differently, and because He hasnt, that "proves" that God is not 'all good'... but i disagree..not going to go into why right now.. i already went much further with this reply than i had intended.

And if you think about it, the world would just bea MUCH better place without religeon. The holocaust wouldnt have happened, the 9/11 attacks wouldnt have happened (they attacked us because they hate chrstians and jews), the romans wouldnt have crucified catholics,

OK, but what would have happened instead of those? You seem to be of the idea that humans are basically good, and that it is religion that corrupted mankind. How can we prove this one way or the other? I dont think that we can. But please keep in mind, the things religion has helped in people and society.

One more thing, if your thinking god exists simply because millions of people say so, your wrong. Millions of people thought the earth was flat, but they were wrong.

The same can be said to you, of evolution.

So, i think these are pretty valid reasons on why NOT to believe in god. Sure, i admit theres no %100 proof that god doesnt exist, but theres enough evidence against him.

There are much better evidences against, than you have stated. But there are far better evidences for God, than i gave you (most of which are beyond my ability to give..not to understand, but to give.. but i am working on them, with the Grace and Help of God).

If you can think of things to prove me wrong, go ahead.

Just so you know, i did not do this, to prove you wrong, or to prove God right. I am a servant of God... a lowly sower of seeds. May the Holy Spirit guide and nurture His seeds.

quote:Originally posted by Some Old Drunk Guy:

Thinking about that gives you an uncomfortable feeling, so we resort to god to give meaning.

"Everything you do is meaningless, but it's very important that you do it."

I can't remember who said that, and I know that's not verbatim, but it's true nonetheless.

Besides, if nothing did matter, I'd feel happy knowing that, no matter how many times I'd fucked up, it didn't matter. But things do matter, because these things affect your happiness. Life's all about finding your own peace, and if you just sat and did nothing, you'd be neither happy nor peaceful. You'd be hungry, bored, and miserable.

quote:God also cant be all powerful. He would fix the stuff that we didnt cause, such as earthquakes or volcanos. So, god cant be all powerful or he cant be all good. If he was all good, he would fix these problems in an instant but he cant because he isnt all powerful, or hes all powerful but doesnt want to fix these things because hes not all good. Its either one or the other.

Or he just doesn't interfere with the world.

quote:

And if you think about it, the world would just bea MUCH better place without religeon. The holocaust wouldnt have happened, the 9/11 attacks wouldnt have happened (they attacked us because they hate chrstians and jews)

If they attacked us because they hated Christians, I think they would've gone more for Vatican City and places of Christain worship. They attacked us because they dislike Americans, and they attacked the WTC because they hate our high regard for materialistic possesions, so striking the pulsing heart of our economy would be like a deathblow to the U.S. and the Western World.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

*starts a slow clap*

*speeds the rate of clap*

The Bible must be fiction-and probably shouldn't be taken too literally. Comedian Carlos Mencia supported this on TV the other night. Adam and Eve were the first humans. They had 2 sons, Cain and Able, and 3 daughters. This means that to perpetuate our species Cain or Able had to procreate by boning their sister. Doesn't it say that incest is a sin in The Bible somewhere? Why was it OK for Cain or Able?

My biggest problem with most religeons is that it's largely based on fear...Fear of burning in Hell, Fear of the wrath of God, etc. Living scared is no way to go through life-just my .02.

BTW-you write like a 6th grader. Maybe you are a 6th grader? Or just a product of American public schools? Learn the difference between to, too, and two for starters.



[This message has been edited by DirtySanchez69 (edited 07-25-2005).]

I think the clincher is the fact that there is absolutely no proof of any being that could be considered god. I can explain just about everything that there is to explain about the universe without ever refering to a god. Why, because i'm one smart motherfucker.

Energy has existed forever and is the cornerstone of everything. I can prove it, but i'm assuming that no one here is a physicist, so it'd be pointless to post. I've figured out the exact formuala for the creation of everything, that explains why everything forms the way it does. I guess if you wanted to give something the name of god, or atleast the closest thing to what everyone believes is god would be the energy that flows in the universe and the laws that determine the mechanics of that energy. Since their is no other way for everything to work, you could call them the divine laws. This is as closest thing to god that their is. There is no being that we could refer to as god, only energy, and the rules that are applied to energy. We are a product of these rules, just like everything around us. Matter is formed from pure energy, and we are all made from the same energy. Some may argue that god created these rules, but the problem with that argument is that energy, has to follow these rules, or else the universe would = 1/0, or in other words the equation that these rules form would be invalid and not equal out. By merely energy existing, the rules have to exist. That means that the energy that we could consider to be god couldn't exist without the rules, which means that there is either no god, or he's not in control of the rules and is effected by them which goes against every belief.

Now if you think about it, we ourselves are effected exactly the same way as how the only thing close to god is effected.

I feel that this points to the fact that we are gods. We can create and destroy, effect the lives of everyone, we're composed of energy that can't be destroyed. Also, are lives are determined by our choices with only outside influence from others effecting us.

Religion's purpose is to belittle you as a god so that others can remove your power, and it's working very well. It just doesn't make sense to me why others would follow someone elses plan, when they can have their own. This is my life, I control my life, if I go hungry it's my fault, if I have no shelter it's my fault, if there was an earthquake it's just the techtonic plates shifting, most likely from gravitational effects or enertia that is still being distributed from an asteroid, or any other perfectly logical explaination. I have wisdom, knowledge, logic, and reasoning that has given me no need for religion or belief in a divine god. I don't have a single belief that i've learned, only ones that i've created by rationalizing with the knowledge i've gained so far in my life. Some of my beliefs are dynamic and some are static, but they are mine, and not put there by others. We all have this capablity for thought, so why give in to a set of beliefs that aren't your own? When you give in to someone elses beliefs, your giving up your power to them, and it might be used for good or evil, even when your told it's for good.

to the first three posters: i want the 3 seconds it took to skip your posts back.

To the people who made fun of my writing style: i wrote it in the summer of 6th-7th grade, which explains the grammar errors and the writing style. I called it essay for some reason....it isnt. Also, just get over the fact that i made some errors (i.e except=accept). I do know the differences between to, too, and two. If you want me to revise it because its too hard to read, i will. Infact, thats what ill do and repost this later.

Someone close this.



[This message has been edited by Some Old Drunk Guy (edited 07-26-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Some Old Drunk Guy:

to the first three posters: i want the 3 seconds it took to skip your posts back.

To the people who made fun of my writing style: i wrote it in the summer of 6th-7th grade, which explains the grammar errors and the writing style. I called it essay for some reason....it isnt. Also, just get over the fact that i made some errors (i.e except=accept). I do know the differences between to, too, and two. If you want me to revise it because its too hard to read, i will. Infact, thats what ill do and repost this later.

Someone close this.



That explains it. Ignore my comment then. It's acceptable, and even slightly impressive, for an 11 year old.

I'm calling you out BaKeD_gOoDs,

Show your formula, explain the universe to us and let us judge just how smart you really are.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

I'm calling you out BaKeD_gOoDs,

Show your formula, explain the universe to us and let us judge just how smart you really are.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

QUOTE Originally posted by Some Old Drunk Guy:

[b]

Just so you know, i did not do this, to prove you wrong, or to prove God right. I am a servant of God... a lowly sower of seeds. May the Holy Spirit guide and nurture His seeds.

Why does this make me picture a dictator holding a leash to your neck? Has all those bible verses obscure your reasoning?

Think your own opinions, drive your own fate and enjoy your own life.

Sounds like you are just against the Christian God..

other religions exist too

perhaps one type of spiritual base is in need or be atheist from all religon

QUOTE Originally posted by Osirus69:

Why does this make me picture a dictator holding a leash to your neck?

This is where 'freewill' comes into play. God gave me (well, all of us actually) the ability to chose Him to be Soveriegn. We all worship someone. I choose to worship Someone greater than myself.

Has all those bible verses obscure your reasoning?

Nope. I'm in my prime.. and getting better.

Think your own opinions, drive your own fate and enjoy your own life.

The first and last, i do.

But no person drives their own fate.

Can you prove that your life was driven by you?

quote:Originally posted by wenerjar:

Sounds like you are just against the Christian God..

other religions exist too

perhaps one type of spiritual base is in need or be atheist from all religon

I did infact write this against the christian god because i was originally a christian before i became mature enough to think about things and make my own decisions, and the country im in(USA) is predominatly christian. I know there are other religeons.

Im atheist from all religeon.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

QUOTE Originally posted by Osirus69:

But no person drives their own fate.

Can you prove that your life was driven by you?

Well, you can rephrase the question by saying: Can you prove that you don't drive your life?

These answers are impossible to answer. Unless of course you have omniscience...

quote:This is where 'freewill' comes into play. God gave me (well, all of us actually) the ability to chose Him to be Soveriegn. We all worship someone. I choose to worship Someone greater than myself.

Alright fine, but if i use my freewill to not believe in god, i go to hell, which to me is hardly fair. But, as you said before, who am i to decide whats fair.

And where you said "we all worship someone", that isnt true. I dont worship anything because, well, im an atheist.

yea, i only have one problem with this post... it was horriably written.. and in all honesty, being an athiest is the same as believing in a god, you are being lazy, you are dismissing the fact that there could be a 'higher consciousness' whether or not 'it' is the god they describe in any religion or not. Dont be so hasty.. and in all honesty, a 'higher consciousness' is the only explenation for everything, even if it is merely energy (which everything is made out of)

just dont be so hasty

You have no right to call my post "horriably" written. If you havent read the prior posts, which i dont think you have, we already established that there is a huge amount of grammar errors, which is why im retyping everything.

And what are you talking about, what do you consider yourself? The idea of energy being a "higher conscience" is weird because energy isnt conscious.

In closer, your post confused the hell out of me.

[This message has been edited by Some Old Drunk Guy (edited 07-28-2005).]

Uhm, I still say that Wolves fucking own all...

Oh and xtreem5150ahm, please don't post again, you probably need to study for your preisthood test thingies. And say a prayer, thanking god for your computer. Oh wait, you can post if you know the answer to this question: If God created man, why did so many other groups of men (like in Asia and the Americas) not even know about the Bible? Did he not want to teach them the "truth" also, like in Europe/Middle East (Well, it started in Israel)?

Frankly, Christians piss me off because of their "Our religeon is right and yours is wrong" crap. Muslums do that too, from what I've read. I say Wolves, Buddhists, and Druids are probably more knowledgeable about this stuff then priests. Although in the end, Wolves are right. They pwn j00 n00bs.

[This message has been edited by ejail (edited 07-28-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by ejail:

Uhm, I still say that Wolves fucking own all...

Oh and xtreem5150ahm, please don't post again, you probably need to study for your preisthood test thingies. And say a prayer, thanking god for your computer. Oh wait, you can post if you know the answer to this question: If God created man, why did so many other groups of men (like in Asia and the Americas) not even know about the Bible? Did he not want to teach them the "truth" also, like in Europe/Middle East (Well, it started in Israel)?

Frankly, Christians piss me off because of their "Our religeon is right and yours is wrong" crap. Muslums do that too, from what I've read. I say Wolves, Buddhists, and Druids are probably more knowledgeable about this stuff then priests. Although in the end, Wolves are right. They pwn j00 n00bs.



Wolves?

quote:Originally posted by Some Old Drunk Guy:

[b] Alright fine, but if i use my freewill to not believe in god, i go to hell, which to me is hardly fair. But, as you said before, who am i to decide whats fair.

So you don't believe in a God, but you do believe in hell?

I've always thought the two went hand in hand, like sex and cigarettes, but whatever.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

[This message has been edited by King_Cotton (edited 07-28-2005).]

Sorry to confuse you. What i think xtreem is saying is that in the christian religeon, you have a choice to believe in god or not, but as far as i know, in the christian religeon, if you dont accept god, you go to hell.

I dont believe in hell, heaven, some sort of after-life, or god.

quote:Originally posted by awkword:

*speeds the rate of clap*

*starts to jibber like an idiot in rhythm with the clapping

As a writer I found that essay Revoulting. How old are you, nine?

quote:Originally posted by Osirus69:

Well, you can rephrase the question by saying: Can you prove that you don't drive your life?

These answers are impossible to answer. Unless of course you have omniscience...



It is interesting that when you rephrased, you changed the word 'fate' to the word 'life'.

Anyway, maybe i cant prove that one can not drive there own life, i can point out a few things that are beyond our control, that can drive our life:

We didnt choose to be born.

Even when we choose to have kids, we can't MAKE it happen.

i'm not talking about having kids now (necessarily), but accidents happen. If they were not accidents, then they would be on purpose.

Although the career we end up with, may have been a result of planning and choice and drive; it is also a direct result of circumstances.

QUOTE Originally posted by Some Old Drunk Guy:

Alright fine, but if i use my freewill to not believe in god, i go to hell, which to me is hardly fair. But, as you said before, who am i to decide whats fair.

It seems to me that you might be looking at it backwards. God's Word says that we all are deserving of damnation.

The free-will choice is to choose to accept the gift of Salvation.

And where you said "we all worship someone", that isnt true. I dont worship anything because, well, im an atheist.

That means that you worship self. You are trusting that your lack of belief is correct.

QUOTE Originally posted by ejail:

Oh and xtreem5150ahm, please don't post again, you probably need to study for your preisthood test thingies.

I'm not Catholic.

And say a prayer, thanking god for your computer.

Already did.

Oh wait, you can post if you know the answer to this question: If God created man, why did so many other groups of men (like in Asia and the Americas) not even know about the Bible? Did he not want to teach them the "truth" also, like in Europe/Middle East (Well, it started in Israel)?

The dispersion after Babel and the confusing of language.

Maybe less worry about how God is going to handle the 'other people' groups, and wonder if He wants you to learn about Him.

Frankly, Christians piss me off because of their "Our religeon is right and yours is wrong" crap.

Do you really get pissed off that easily?

Concidering this, is it wise of you to visit this forum?

I say Wolves, Buddhists, and Druids are probably more knowledgeable about this stuff then priests.

Care to share why?

Although in the end, Wolves are right.

Wolves?



j00

Interesting. It looks like you started to try to draw the dog from the Dilbert strip... or maybe Mr. Peabody.

Please finish the picture... it might be therapy for that "pissed off" state.

quote:Originally posted by Beholder:

As a writer I found that essay Revoulting. How old are you, nine?

I've already said that i wrote it in the summer of 6th grade. Im re-writing it anyway.

And i have yet to see one person who insults my 6th grade writing skills who doesnt fuck up on spelling something themselves.

Besides, if this makes a difference, i wrote it for my xanga site, so yea, it wasnt written for school or anything, just for the internet.

[This message has been edited by Some Old Drunk Guy (edited 07-30-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

QUOTE Originally posted by Osirus69:

Why does this make me picture a dictator holding a leash to your neck?

This is where 'freewill' comes into play. God gave me (well, all of us actually) the ability to chose Him to be Soveriegn. We all worship someone. I choose to worship Someone greater than myself.

Has all those bible verses obscure your reasoning?

Nope. I'm in my prime.. and getting better.

Think your own opinions, drive your own fate and enjoy your own life.

The first and last, i do.

But no person drives their own fate.

Can you prove that your life was driven by you?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



We didnt choose to be born.

Who says that? What if we decide in Heaven what experiences we need to feel and... plan our lives ahead (though it won't be too detailed for "free will" obscures all prophecies").

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



i'm not talking about having kids now (necessarily), but accidents happen. If they were not accidents, then they would be on purpose.

You're getting on the wrong foot. I didn't say "you have god powers, and can change a fetus to be 100% correct," but have the power to chose options that alter your destiny. For example, after getting your wife pregnant, you wouldn't let her smoke/drink beer/eat shit food or else the baby will be deformed.

QUOTE Originally posted by Osirus69:

Who says that? What if we decide in Heaven what experiences we need to feel and... plan our lives ahead

Let me get this straight, you are using 'heaven' as an arguement against God?

Remember... the topic of this thread is "why im an atheist".

You're getting on the wrong foot. I didn't say "you have god powers, and can change a fetus to be 100% correct,"

and you also "are getting on the wrong foot".

By accident, i was actually referring to things like car accidents... but since i had just been talking about births and i was moving on to another thought; which is why i said, "i'm not talking about having kids now (necessarily), but accidents happen...", but i put the word 'necessarily' because sometimes people call an unplanned pregnacy an accident.

Let's talk about accidents for a second. Let's suppose that you are driving a truck eastbound on a city street. The street is 4 lanes, 2 in each direction, and you are in the right lane. Two feet after the curb are telephone poles. A car is stopped at an intersection (on the north side of the street you are on, facing south) getting ready to turn left (east). As you go through the intersection, he starts his turn, but instead of staying in the left lane, he continues into the right lane. You see that he is not staying in his lane, so you move over as far as you can... feeling the curb rubbing your tires. If you speed up or hit the brakes, you know that he will still hit you, it would just be on a different part of the truck.

Up to this point, this accident did happen. The driver of the car was drunk. The driver of the truck was me.

Now, let me add some stuff that didnt happen, but could have...

Let's say that there was someone walking down the sidewalk, and the car came fast enough to bump the truck onto the sidewalk, which in turn, hit the person. And let's say that the person did not die, but lost the use of his/her fingers (this person was a concert pianist).

Rememember, you said, "drive your own fate". This concert pianist had been driving his/her fate since age 4, and is thought of as the next Chopin.

What i'm getting at, is, accidents happen beyond our control. I was not talking about altering a fetus or anything like that.

but have the power to chose options that alter your destiny.

How can "choosing options" alter "destiny"?

Dont get me wrong. I agree here. But we dont know our destiny, nor can we prove that we actually have 'choice'. We can only look forward see that there are choices and look back at the results of the choice that we made. We can not prove that we actually could have gone the other path.

For example, after getting your wife pregnant, you wouldn't let her smoke/drink beer/eat shit food or else the baby will be deformed.

Your example is exactly what i am saying.

We can see that there are options. To smoke etc. or not to smoke etc. And we can look at the results of the choice that we choose, after the fact, to determine what happened. But we can not take both paths, so we dont really know that we actually had a choice or made a choice (in other words, it could have been destiny-- predestined).

A few points.

I consider myself a witch. However, faith doesn't come easily to me when I used to skeptical of everything you couldn't prove to me. So I have periods of faith in my God and Goddess. I'd like to make it clear here that, yes, I'm 14. I do not believe in this as some sort of attention thing, it doesn't get me any. I do not sit around thinking I'm worshipping the devil or doing black magic or whatever. I practise that particular brand of Celtic religion as purely as I can trace it, which shares its name with a religion born in the 50s or 60s? I do not practise that particular new age style thing.

That's to prevent people shooting holes in me. I also have my atheist periods.

Now - if accidents were in our control, they wouldn't be accidents, would they? Let us say that you are spinning plates though, the purpose behind the exercise is to keep the plate spinning on your finger. Through a drop in agility, hand-eye coordination and balance, you can drop the plate. Your purpose was to drop the plate, you did not want that drop in motor functions and such to happen. Yet they are perfectly within your control.

Accidents can happen within our control. When accidents are brought together, they are still under someone's control. I think that's logical, but this is all improvised so put it right.

There are very few Mormons in the UK, but from the satire and some books written by a Protestant Christian the typical stereotype is of fanatical preachers in gleaming white suits? I think that was it, but I can't remember. Either way, a lot of religion has become materialistic. This works both ways, church denominations that grow very rich and often display sociological characteristics of cults, and 'new-age' people who are often holier-than-thou (or whatever the expression is) and not only insist that a gathering of people has herbal tea, but that everyone drinks it. That was the best Catholic vs. Pagan argument I heard for a while.

SODG, come on. I agree with you, but a lot of your argument here stabs itself. Sepukku, btw. The Romans were Catholics. That's simple history though, you walked into the Constitution point. Oh, and God can't be proven. We know. But, religion is about faith. Believing in something without it being proved should suffice as a definition of faith.

xtreem [can't remember the rest, sorry], a belief that not believing is right does not mean he worships himself. I believe that some of your points are right, and I trust you to stay reasonable as you have. I don't worship you. I do see your point, of course, but to argue on the word and its applications is, ultimately, pointless.

So. But, a joke I recently heard - 'How many Zen Buddhists does it take to change a lightbulb? Two. One to change the lightbulb and one not to.'

Ponder on that for a moment. SG.

well i can understand the replies that essay got because most of those reasons were very self serving and ignorant but i think 'some old drunk guy' was almost on the money when he stated his secondreason " i thinkreligion was madeup to explain the mysteries of life." i guess your not all that stupid. you pretty much explained religion, it is used to make us civil and help us understand why we are herein ways we would understand. many books used to make the bible was made to record beliefs, hisory, medicinal techniques, stories of morality and understanding our own mortality. one may take scriptures word for word and claim that it has to ring true, but what we fail to realise is that they were written by man, humans have somany different perspectives that it is impossible to hang on to it word for word. think of religion as a collection of thoughts from ppl that lived so long ago. who may have an influence on you one way or another. for example who ever said on the christian bible that homosexuality was an abomination may have been some guy who was homo phobic.does that mean christians are naturaly homophobes? of course not! some ppl think differently than others. you can compare scriptures to ppl you may have encountered before and they may tell you something closed minded or sprirtually deep, but either way you may have input on that subject that means you accepted what you heard or you didnt. that just like how ppl read the bible or any scripture. and when it was written , im sure who ever wrote some portions may have had an influence that they wanted to either acknowlege or ignore. just like as religion tells you how to read it. and that whole " what has god done for me lately" bullshit just shows how selfish and sad some ppl are. and as far as atheism goes its bullshit too, there are more self proclaimed "christians" that dont acknowlege god or religion at all,than there are atheists, you cant just say you belong to a religion. thats nonsense. its the equivalent of saying you read a good article in a magazine and now you want to live your live based on it. you can be an "atheist"if you like,thechristian faith im sure, wont show you as a deviant,cuz god isnt pointing a lightning bolt to your head, from what i personally believe, god itself is a basis of how we live in this planet. thanks to religion we have medicine, science, competitive sports, procreation,law, morality,shame,psychology, and romance. if religion has become the basis of every civilization that ever existed, is it wasntforthat, we would be a mass of empty headed,lunatics. and the more you think about it, the more it makes sense, so please do what scriptures say and look at them and make your own assumption of what you are supposed to feel about that, and pass it on tell some one you read something that you agree or disagree with and tell some on else your version of the subject dont just make a word like atheism to distance your self from religion like if it was a club that you dont want to join. its not like that at all,nobody has the right to say who goes to hell or who is a saint, just give other ppls views the benefit of the doubt and then make your assumptoin. in a perfect world we would all be wise and not categorize ourselves as atheist or christian or muslim or hebrew or buddhist or hindu or what ever. cuz no one cares deep down not even "god".