"No one ever lacks a good reason for suicide."

--Cesare Pavese



I'm interested in seeing what reasons the Christians on totse have for not committing suicide.

Note, I am not interested in the Classical St. Augustine argument against suicide, on which Roman Catholicism is bases it's opposition on; at least not if you are a Roman Catholic. I'm mainly interested in the opinion of Christians who believe the road to salvation is the belief in the Christ as our savior, and only that.

If you are not a Roman Catholic, and still consider Augustine's argument as valid, then please explain why (as I believe that it does not apply).

I believe in reincarnation, and I also believe that your problems follow you into the next life (Maybe with in different guises), in this case suicicde would be pointless anyway. You might aswell use this life for solving your troubles.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

"No one ever lacks a good reason for suicide."

--Cesare Pavese



I'm interested in seeing what reasons the Christians on totse have for not committing suicide.

Note, I am not interested in the Classical St. Augustine argument against suicide, on which Roman Catholicism is bases it's opposition on; at least not if you are a Roman Catholic. I'm mainly interested in the opinion of Christians who believe the road to salvation is the belief in the Christ as our savior, and only that.

If you are not a Roman Catholic, and still consider Augustine's argument as valid, then please explain why (as I believe that it does not apply).



this sounds alot like being a luthern. or howevr its spelled.

martin luther, among other things, claimed that only a belief in jesus and god was sufficient to get into heaven.

this was above anything youve done on earth.

any lutherns to take this on?

In Jesus, like... inside Jesus?

Whoa!

quote:Originally posted by Nihilist:



this sounds alot like being a luthern. or howevr its spelled.

martin luther, among other things, claimed that only a belief in jesus and god was sufficient to get into heaven.

this was above anything youve done on earth.

any lutherns to take this on?

It's not just Lutherans, it's many non-denominational Christians and protestants. For example, as far as I understand it, extrem, and DS believe this.

quote:Originally posted by Nihilist:



this sounds alot like being a luthern. or howevr its spelled.

martin luther, among other things, claimed that only a belief in jesus and god was sufficient to get into heaven.

this was above anything youve done on earth.

any lutherns to take this on?

I don't think Luther mean that in that way...I think he was responding to the power of the church over the people...that belief in jesus and god was 'enough'...everything else was superfluous...

Luther had a problem with not believing he was 'good enough'...he suffered in that way...until he recognized that 'perfection' is not required...

That, at least is my take on that...I could easily be wrong.

I believe I'm lutheran, although I've never been confronted with the idealism that belief in jesus is all that's necessary to get into heaven.

I've had a few freinds who have commited suicide and have had many of my peers ask me the damning question "Are they going to hell since they killed themselves?"

Thinking lucidly, we should take into conscideration that christianity is a personal relationship Jesus Christ; whom is all knowing. I think maybe the bible dosen't speculate on suicide for one particular reason: Most cases of suicide stem from different antagonistic struggles(Why Person A. killed himself, isn't exactly why Person B. did.). Indeed, as many circumstances exist for suicide are as diverse as how many people actually go through with it.

Ponder that last statement for a second; and allow me to ask a retorical question.



Example A.

Person A. Is in the military, his entire platoon was wiped out and he is upon the verge of being captured by enemy forces. Wounded, he discharges his own sidearm into his head; narrowly escaping the approaching and very lucid torture.

Example B.

Person B. is an emo attention whore. His mommy and daddy won't let him to go a late night drug party with his equally misguided "friends", and after extensive verbal disrespect he storms into his room. Hyped up on MTV's doom and gloom and more generic teen geared band lyrics than imaginable, he cuts himself and dies. Leaving behind an equally generic suicide note.

Personally, I doubt anyone can rationaly argue that Example B. legitimately advocates suicide as much as Example A. Not even mentioning that in Person A. is submitting himself to the acting government (as he's told to in the bible, therefor following God's word), while Person B actively acts antagonistic for the sake of acting antagonistic.

So here's the very obvious question, can anyone infer me that person A. and person B's suicide will have a mutual inpact on their judgement?

That's just my personal opinion, and I very well may be wrong; conscidering suicide isn't a dogmatic issue I've tackled. On the other hand, I can give a well gaurded opinion on my trichotomistic ideals if anyone asks.

[This message has been edited by Beholder (edited 07-29-2005).]

Beholder, it is not the nature of your death that is at issue. The eternal resting place of your soul is, and there is but one qualifier for entrance into heaven: complete redemption of our sin.

Acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior of your life is the single most important factor.

There is no justification for taking your life. From a humanistic standpoint, person A has a more legitimate reason, but you have to discredit God's ability to govern His own people in order to give such a scenario any logical merit.

From a spiritual standpoint, we are to trust God: "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." (Jeremiah 29:11)

God knows every and all situations we will encounter. Should we then play God, by finding justification for suicide based on our circumstances ?

Let us look at Job.

Job was the epitome of suffering. He was made a messenger by God not only to preach the true faith revolving around the oneness and supremacy of God, but also the demonstrate how a believer should never lose faith despite all the tribulations he might have to go through in its pursuit.

He was asked to take in his hand 'a bundle of rushes to strike with' and under no circumstances 'to go back on the oath' he had taken. He remained steadfast and firm in his commitment to his Creator. He was afflicted with a great deal of pain but he never wavered in his faith in God.

Now, was it his place to take his own life, in light of all he had endured ? He lost his family...his livelihood...his home...his power.

The answer is obvious: no.

So, the question really becomes, it is ok for a CHRISTIAN to commit suicide ?

The example you gave of person A and person B left out a very vital aspect of this topic: God.

For an unbeliever in God, it does not matter the method of their death (by their own hand, or by other means). Their destiny remains the same, since they don't believe in God.

For a believer, it is complete mistrust in God's ability to govern our lives to make a decision as weighty as whether or not we should continue to live.

That lack of faith in God is a sin, but if the person is truly saved, he/she will still go to heaven, no matter how they die. Judgment will be passed in the afterlife, however...and I don't know about you, but I don't want to be standing before the creator of the universe, trying to explain why I didn't trust Him enough to get me "through".

God never condones nor commands that we take our own life. You used the excuse that we are to follow the laws of the land, which state that we are to take our own life before we are taken captive, but this is in direct contradiction of God's will, which is to preserve life, so Christians are not bound by such legalities.

Our body is our temple, and each piece of the temple (each believer) is a part of God. If we are commanded to eat right and stay healthy, which we are, then where is the breakdown in communication regarding how we are to value our lives ?

The only reason we should ever want to die is in service to our Lord.

quote:That lack of faith in God is a sin, but if the person is truly saved, he/she will still go to heaven, no matter how they die.

So if belief in the Christ as a savior is all it takes, why haven't you comitted suicide?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



The only reason we should ever want to die is in service to our Lord.

Imagine how much bloodshed a string of thoughts such as that has spawned over the centuries. Imagine how much human suffering, justifiable murder and 'jihad' that very statement has preceded.

Then imagine how it is that a clearthinking, level-headed individual could just roll over and give up their own existance to a set of beliefs that teaches murder is wrong and suicide is worse .... unless it's in the name of the Lord.

That's why we'll never take religion out of politics, because most major religions are compromised by politics already. Maybe that's why they've always gone hand-in-hand throughout the years.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

So if belief in the Christ as a savior is all it takes, why haven't you comitted suicide?

I am still here, which means I still serve a purpose.

At any time God could decide that my work here is done, or that I no longer serve a purpose on earth.

Believe in Christ as the savior is all it takes to receive salvation from sin.

This is not just about me, though. I am here to spread the word of God, as commanded in the Bible.

Believe me, I can't wait to get to heaven, but there is a reason I am here, and I will not question God's motives for my physical existence.

Questioning god's motives means nothing if he is going to forgive you no matter what (as long as you believe). Not to mention that he can't need anything, and thus can't need you here, so your stay here would no be fulfilling a need of god's. He's omnipotent and omniscient supposedly.

So you've given no good reason why not to commit suicide.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-30-2005).]

Yes, I have. God says don't murder. That includes ourselves.

Also, if you can kill yourself, you have no trust in God. That is reason enough...

What more do you need ?

You are looking for something specific, it seems.

You've said that, yes, but those are not valid reasons because you would still get to go to heaven, even if you break the commandment of "Thou shall not murder" (which by the way, isn't even a valid argument because "murder" means unlawful killing of one human by another..." (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=murder) in which suicide does not fit ).

And moreover, he is omnipotent and omniscient. If he knows you're going to commit suicide, then he has the choice to send someone to replace you in your "job" on Earth. If he doesn't, then he doesn't care.

So those aren't valid reasons not to.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-30-2005).]

Ecclesiastes 7:17 - "Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool — why die before your time ?"

As is common, someone has explained this better than I can, so I will just quote him.

"Very few would argue with the fact that suicide is a direct breaking of the Sixth Commandment which is, "You shall not murder." We are not to murder each other or ourselves. God created human beings in His image and each of us carries within us the potential to overcome the evil in this world, and to rule and reign with Christ in heavenly places. If we are Christians, we no longer belong to ourselves, but to God. We are overseers of our bodies and our lives (which belong to Him), and we are responsible to guard that which has been entrusted to us.

Suicide is a grievous sin that seriously hurts both the heart of God, and those who loved the deceased. The pain of losing a loved one who took their own life is not easily healed, and often isn't fully healed until Heaven. Whether you are contemplating suicide or know someone who killed themselves, God wants you to know there is hope and life for you. He is the great Healer and Restorer of what has been lost or stolen.

Many of the greatest saints and heroes of the Bible faced overwhelming depression and sometimes wrote that they wished they had never even been born. King David, (Psalm 13:2-4), the prophet Jeremiah, (Jeremiah 20:14-18), and Job, (Job 7:15-16) among others, all reached low points where they despaired of their very lives.

Job says, "So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life. I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity" (Job 7:15-16).

Yet, each one of these men were blessed of God, and persevered through their trials as an example to us. Though they faced great suffering and injustice, they kept their faith in God and His goodness, and in so doing, were sustained and led into abundant life.

Though we may get depressed from time to time, we believe that the act of suicide never takes place apart from demonic influences driving one to take their own life. Suicide is directly counter to the power of life that God has put so strongly into His creation. Everywhere we look we see life growing, even in the most hostile environments. This "survival instinct" is a gift from God. In fact, if He didn't bestow this gift upon His creation there probably wouldn't be any life on this planet at all! Suicide, then, is directly contrary to the will of God, and originated in the realm of the demonic host, who come only to "steal, and to kill, and to destroy" (John 10:10).

Some people believe that all who commit suicide go immediately to Hell. However, the Bible never says if this is the case. The Bible is silent on this issue. God probably did not address it in black in white for a good reason. If we knew that we would still go to Heaven if we killed ourselves, there would probably be a lot more suicides taking place than there already are. However, if we knew that all who killed themselves were automatically banished to Hell, no matter what their situation, it may be too much for the grief-stricken family and friends to bear. Murder and suicide are not unpardonable sins. The only unforgivable sins are rejecting Christ (Mark 16:16) and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Mark 3:28-29 - "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation..."

It is so important to remember that God judges each of us individually, weighing all the factors of our lives, our beliefs and our motives. Each one of us is so intricate and complex, only God could really judge us in total truth, wisdom, and without favoritism.

To contemplate suicide and rely on God's grace to get you to heaven....God's grace never means that we have a free license to sin! Those who willfully sin after knowing God's grace, are in far greater danger than those who know less.

God would not be God if He could not work any situation (no matter how unbearable it may seem) for His glory and for the good in a person's life."

~ http://www.bible.com/answers/asuicide.html

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-30-2005).]

That article answers nothing.

Either belief in Jesus as a savior, and in the existence of god, is ALL that it takes to enter heaven, or it is not.

Which one is it? You claim that it is the former. If you claim so, then it is irrelevant if it is a sin to take your life or not as long as you believe in the existence of god, and in Jesus as our savior.

If that's the case, then "it would be a sin breaking the commandment 'Thouh Shall Not Murder" is not a valid reason. Period.

Belief is all it takes to get into heaven. I never said otherwise.

We are tasked with trying NOT to sin in this life as Christians...that is what makes it relevant. It is not relevant in regards to gaining entrance into heaven...on that I agree.

I gave valid reasons not to: God doesn't condone it, God doesn't want you to, and God doesn't give you a commandment to do so.

Based on what we both know of God, what good reason IS there to commit suicide ?

A reason for Christians not killing themselves if all it takes is faith, is that people get different rewards in heaven for their faith/work on earth. You can find different verses from the Bible about this.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

That article answers nothing.

Either belief in Jesus as a savior, and in the existence of god, is ALL that it takes to enter heaven, or it is not.

Which one is it? You claim that it is the former. If you claim so, then it is irrelevant if it is a sin to take your life or not as long as you believe in the existence of god, and in Jesus as our savior.

If that's the case, then "it would be a sin breaking the commandment 'Thouh Shall Not Murder" is not a valid reason. Period.

Before i give my take on things, i would like to stress that i dont know for sure, how God deals with suicides. Since your thread is about what we think, and not from dogma; i'm not going to look anything up... to back up my answer, or to verify a thought (to myself or anyone else).



I hope this answers your question a little better:

Yes, you're right (well, atleast i'm very sure that you are).. if one kills, be it self or another, belief in the work of the Christ is sufficient for Salvation.

However, we are told to live in Christ. We are commanded to spread the Word. If we commit suicide for the sake of hurrying our way to Heaven, then we are living for self and not for Christ.

Let's take the suicide that is an act of 'giving up'. You mentioned St. Augustine/Catholic doctrine. I'm not very familiar with Augustine's view on suicide, but i am imagining that it is something along the line of (this was told to me when i was about 8.. by a Lutheran sunday school teacher): "we are forgiven, if we (1)believe in Christ (2) ask for forgiveness. But how can we ask for forgiveness for suicide?" (well, it was something like that)

Anyway, let's assume the person that commits suicide, did in fact(1)believe and (2) repented; then i think that Salvation might be "awarded".

But the problem i see is that it is questionable that the person truly believed; else, why did they "give up" as opposed to Trusting in the Lord? And again, ending one's life as an act of desperation, seems to me, selfish.

(if your motive for this thread is because of someone you love/loved, please realize that i am not judging. I am trying to answer as best that i can, from experience)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

That article answers nothing.

Either belief in Jesus as a savior, and in the existence of god, is ALL that it takes to enter heaven, or it is not.

Which one is it? You claim that it is the former. If you claim so, then it is irrelevant if it is a sin to take your life or not as long as you believe in the existence of god, and in Jesus as our savior.

If that's the case, then "it would be a sin breaking the commandment 'Thouh Shall Not Murder" is not a valid reason. Period.If you are letting yourself be governed entirely by selfishness and completely ignore God's will, which I should think would be the required mindset for committing suicide in light of the reasons Digital has listed from the Christian standpoint, then I don't know that you would qualify as "saved," even in a salvation by faith system. I mean, it seems to me that faith in God would imply being on the same page as he is, believing that his testaments and precepts are true. For Christians this would mean believing not only in Jesus, but in the New Testament, otherwise, someone could just "have faith" that a being named Jesus will save them, without knowing anything about his life, his purpose, his ideas, which is clearly a concept rejected by the Christian religion and its texts... You're not just saying that Jesus is the "savior," you're saying Jesus is the Messiah of Israel, as described in the Christian bible. That means not only buying into the personage of Jesus, but into the doctrinal precepts described in the book that talks about him. Those precepts would include not continuing in sin in spite of being "saved" by your faith. If you truly believe in the Christian Bible, and the bit from Romans, which says that those who are saved are obligated to be "slaves to righteousness", then you wouldn't murder yourself.

Moreover, it could be argued that those who would go to such lengths are not truly believers, and were never saved in the first place, whether they thought they were or not, because 'trees,' to paraphrase the famous passage, are known by their fruit, and a "saved tree" would not bear such sour fruit as would be implied by the enormous hurt and loss created by such an act, which could indeed hurt the people who care for you to such an extent that they are prevented from mustering the faith in a higher meaning and power necessary to be saved themselves. That would certainly rate as a terrible crime in the eyes of Christians... quote:2 Peter 1:3-11 (NIV)

Making One's Calling and Election Sure

3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.This would seem to support the above contention...

Now it may seem like a paradox that you would have to "act" (implying works) saved in order to demonstrate the security of your salvation, but a good deal of Christians would argue that works outside of this state of faith are fruitless, no matter how good they might seem, so that faith remains the sole prerequisite and indeed is the sole inspiration of works, which are mearly a byproduct. Furthermore, the passage I quoted from 2nd Peter would seem to imply that lacking in those qualities would inhibit your understanding of God, and thereby your faith in him.

There are those who do not take that theological route, and stipulate that the person who commits suicide is still "saved" in spite of their wanton continuance in sin, flying in the face of all Christian theological principles. For them, there is still reason not to do it: even aside from the points that acting so cruelly and selfishly to your loved ones is not something most would wish to do and obeying God's will regardless of reward or punishment is a great honour: either of which should be reason enough. This reason is an incentive, rather than threat based one. In my opinion, the text of the Christian bible makes clear that there is to be a hierarchy in their vision of the world to come. The only thing directly promised to Christians in exchange for their faith is that their sins will not prevent them from attaining everlasting life in the world to come. This is nothing to sneaze at certainly, but in addition to this, the implication was also made that there were ways to be "greater" among the believers. If you recall, the apostles once argued with eachother over whom among them would be greatest and Jesus replied to them that he who would be the greatest among them must act as if he were the least among them. This is a lesson in humility, certainly, but it does contain a qualitative promise that being exceedingly good (humility being the example here) will result in a heavenly recognition of greatness. Certainly this is something for the Christian to strive for. Additionally in Revelations chapter 4, John of Patmos describes his vision of the Throne of God, and around the Throne are 24 other thrones with 24 men seated upon them, each wearing crowns. It would seem that to earn these places of esteem, these elders were exceptionally righteous, because it seems unlikely that such people would be chosen at random from among the rather large number of people who would have been saved by the end times...

These are just things coming off the top of my head, based on what I believe to be normative positions in Christian theology. I think the end result pretty clearly shows that a Christian would have very little reason to do such a thing and conversely would have much reason not to. Even if this hypothetical believer would be considered saved, we would be very hard pressed, I think, to find a person who in good faith and reasoning would take this practically detestable path.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Belief is all it takes to get into heaven. I never said otherwise.



Did I say you said otherwise? No. So why mention this?

quote:

We are tasked with trying NOT to sin in this life as Christians...that is what makes it relevant. It is not relevant in regards to gaining entrance into heaven...on that I agree.

1. Then it's irrelevant period! If you can enter heaven even if you disobey god in everything (except the belief that Jesus is our savior) then "it's a commandment not to kill ourselves" or "I have a job here on earth" become non-issues when determining whether or not to kill yourself.

2. Please bear with me, because this is relevant... I have pointed out how you have insulted people here, and have shown no remorse.

If you you're tasked to not sin, then you should have shown remorse, and moreover, you shouldn't have repeated it. I have told you this. Your reply has always been something along the lines of "I am human, we're sinners" or "this is not important as long as I believe in Jesus".

Suicide should be no different. Especially when you have said that all sins are equal.



quote:

I gave valid reasons not to: God doesn't condone it, God doesn't want you to, and God doesn't give you a commandment to do so.

Based on what we both know of God, what good reason IS there to commit suicide ?

Again, those are not valid reasons if they are non-issues when entering into heaven, which you claim they are.

Furthermore, god doesn't give you a commandment to eat every day, yet you do it? Why? Because you're free to do anything that isn't prohibited in the bible. Suicide isn't prohibited.

As for good reasons? You get into heaven quicker and you don't suffer here on earth.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-31-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Before i give my take on things, i would like to stress that i dont know for sure, how God deals with suicides. Since your thread is about what we think, and not from dogma; i'm not going to look anything up... to back up my answer, or to verify a thought (to myself or anyone else).

This is much much more than just about "how god deals with suicides". It has everything to do with the notion that only belief in Jesus is the only requirement to salvation, which is the core belief in your faith.

quote:

However, we are told to live in Christ. We are commanded to spread the Word. If we commit suicide for the sake of hurrying our way to Heaven, then we are living for self and not for Christ.

So? That becomes irrelevant if God is going to forgive you.

quote:

Let's take the suicide that is an act of 'giving up'. You mentioned St. Augustine/Catholic doctrine. I'm not very familiar with Augustine's view on suicide, but i am imagining that it is something along the line of (this was told to me when i was about 8.. by a Lutheran sunday school teacher): "we are forgiven, if we (1)believe in Christ (2) ask for forgiveness. But how can we ask for forgiveness for suicide?" (well, it was something like that)

Anyway, let's assume the person that commits suicide, did in fact(1)believe and (2) repented; then i think that Salvation might be "awarded".

But the problem i see is that it is questionable that the person truly believed; else, why did they "give up" as opposed to Trusting in the Lord? And again, ending one's life as an act of desperation, seems to me, selfish.

If it is questionable because he committed suicide, then the claim that only belief in Jesus as a savior is the only requirement for salvation is completely false.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

If you are letting yourself be governed entirely by selfishness and completely ignore God's will, which I should think would be the required mindset for committing suicide in light of the reasons Digital has listed from the Christian standpoint, then I don't know that you would qualify as "saved," even in a salvation by faith system.

You don't know god's will at all.

For all you know, god could be calling for them to kill themselves. Who is to say that I am not in a quest commanded by god to show Christians how they should commit suicide? You can't. Therefore, "god's will" doesn't help anyone here. It becomes irrelevant.

The fact is, there is no call in the bible not to commit suicide ("Thou shall not murder" doesn't apply, becuase it isn't murder). In reality, the suicide accounts depicted in the bible are either seen neutrally or in a good light.



quote:

I mean, it seems to me that faith in God would imply being on the same page as he is, believing that his testaments and precepts are true. For Christians this would mean believing not only in Jesus, but in the New Testament, otherwise, someone could just "have faith" that a being named Jesus will save them, without knowing anything about his life, his purpose, his ideas, which is clearly a concept rejected by the Christian religion and its texts... You're not just saying that Jesus is the "savior," you're saying Jesus is the Messiah of Israel, as described in the Christian bible. That means not only buying into the personage of Jesus, but into the doctrinal precepts described in the book that talks about him. Those precepts would include not continuing in sin in spite of being "saved" by your faith. If you truly believe in the Christian Bible, and the bit from Romans, which says that those who are saved are obligated to be "slaves to righteousness", then you wouldn't murder yourself.



Then you aren't arguing in favor of extreme, Digital_Savior, and the numerous other Christians who belief faith in Jesus as our savior is the only requirement.

You're in fact, arguing in favor of their "mortal enemy", Roman Catholicism (which is why I didn't want a Catholic answer here).

quote:

Moreover, it could be argued that those who would go to such lengths are not truly believers, and were never saved in the first place, whether they thought they were or not, because 'trees,' to paraphrase the famous passage, are known by their fruit, and a "saved tree" would not bear such sour fruit as would be implied by the enormous hurt and loss created by such an act, which could indeed hurt the people who care for you to such an extent that they are prevented from mustering the faith in a higher meaning and power necessary to be saved themselves. That would certainly rate as a terrible crime in the eyes of Christians...



See above.

If actions are also a requirement for salvation, then you're refuting xtreme's and DS' position.



quote:

Now it may seem like a paradox that you would have to "act" (implying works) saved in order to demonstrate the security of your salvation, but a good deal of Christians would argue that works outside of this state of faith are fruitless, no matter how good they might seem, so that faith remains the sole prerequisite and indeed is the sole inspiration of works, which are mearly a byproduct.

Then which one is it? Does the above passage support the belief that acts are also required, or does it support the claim that they aren't?

If it supports them not being required, then you've refuted nothing of what I said. My point would stand completely as you've show absolutely no reason not to commit suicide!.

If it supports them being required, then you've argued the Roman Catholic position, which I asked not to. That isn't really important, what would be important is that you would be refuting xtreem's and DS' position.



quote: For them, there is still reason not to do it: even aside from the points that acting so cruelly and selfishly to your loved ones is not something most would wish to do and obeying God's will regardless of reward or punishment is a great honour: either of which should be reason enough.

They have absolutely no way of knowing god's will. I could be god's will. I could argue that I am god's will and that it would be a great honor for them to commit suicide!

That point is moot.

quote:

This reason is an incentive, rather than threat based one. In my opinion, the text of the Christian bible makes clear that there is to be a hierarchy in their vision of the world to come. The only thing directly promised to Christians in exchange for their faith is that their sins will not prevent them from attaining everlasting life in the world to come. This is nothing to sneaze at certainly, but in addition to this, the implication was also made that there were ways to be "greater" among the believers. If you recall, the apostles once argued with eachother over whom among them would be greatest and Jesus replied to them that he who would be the greatest among them must act as if he were the least among them. This is a lesson in humility, certainly, but it does contain a qualitative promise that being exceedingly good (humility being the example here) will result in a heavenly recognition of greatness. Certainly this is something for the Christian to strive for.

Then that equals the selfishness you argue suicide would equal... They should strive against it!

quote:

These are just things coming off the top of my head, based on what I believe to be normative positions in Christian theology. I think the end result pretty clearly shows that a Christian would have very little reason to do such a thing and conversely would have much reason not to. Even if this hypothetical believer would be considered saved, we would be very hard pressed, I think, to find a person who in good faith and reasoning would take this practically detestable path.

Much reason not to? I don't see one that stands to scrutiny and that surpasses the reason to do it.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-31-2005).]

quote:Before i give my take on things, i would like to stress that i dont know for sure, how God deals with suicides.

Haha, it made me laugh because you talk about God like it is real.

Anyways, i often think about the suicide issue with christianity - however i'm glad rust posted it first as he can formulate an argument a lot better than i can. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Rust, you're missing the point. People can act outside of purely selfish means. Those like D_S are living today because they have decided to do the world a service, and to live their lifes to the fullest (while they lasts.) D_S is confident that he will go to Heaven, but has decided to stay here awhile to do others a service. Many humans act generously What more do you need?

Your ploy to annihilate the Christian population isn't appreciated.

*smiles*

QUOTE Originally posted by Rust:

This is much much more than just about "how god deals with suicides". It has everything to do with the notion that only belief in Jesus is the only requirement to salvation, which is the core belief in your faith.

Which i think i answered by saying:

(1) that i am giving my oppinion, and not dogma

(2) Yes, you're right (well, atleast i'm very sure that you are).. if one kills, be it self or another, belief in the work of the Christ is sufficient for Salvation.

So? That becomes irrelevant if God is going to forgive you.

No, not irrelevant. It is relevant because it is explaining the motivation about why a Christian chooses to live as opposed to "hurrying his way to Heaven".

Your question is about why a Christian just doesnt commit suicide in order to get to Heaven. I am saying that a suicide for the motivation and purpose of being with God, would be selfish and not living for God's purpose.

Sure, i would be forgiven. But by living and (trying) to do God's Will, i am serving God, and not self.



If it is questionable because he committed suicide, then the claim that only belief in Jesus as a savior is the only requirement for salvation is completely false.

I think you might have misunderstood me. I am saying that if a christian commits suicide because they "just cant go on anymore", then i think it is questionable that the christian actually believed and trusted in Jesus in the first place. Else, why not put whatever was so terrible, into God's hand?

Because i am not God, i dont know what is in the heart of that person...i dont know if that person truely believed or not.... that is why i say that it is questionable.

quote:Originally posted by Antiquarian:

Rust, you're missing the point. People can act outside of purely selfish means. Those like D_S are living today because they have decided to do the world a service, and to live their lifes to the fullest (while they lasts.) D_S is confident that he will go to Heaven, but has decided to stay here awhile to do others a service. Many humans act generously What more do you need?

Your ploy to annihilate the Christian population isn't appreciated.

Who said they couldn't act outside of selfishness? Who said they can't have altruistic motives? Nobody.

I'm saying that those altruistic motives are not valid reasons not to commit suicide, at least, not more valid than committing suicide itself.

P.S. Yes. You caught me. This was a ploy to have all Christians killed. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Which i think i answered by saying:

(1) that i am giving my oppinion, and not dogma

(2) Yes, you're right (well, atleast i'm very sure that you are).. if one kills, be it self or another, belief in the work of the Christ is sufficient for Salvation.



How do you go about answering a statement?

I just said it had more to do than just suicide. Whether it is your opinion or dogma has basically nothing to do with that point, as does if you believe only belief in Jesus saves us.

quote:

No, not irrelevant. It is relevant because it is explaining the motivation about why a Christian chooses to live as opposed to "hurrying his way to Heaven".

Your question is about why a Christian just doesnt commit suicide in order to get to Heaven. I am saying that a suicide for the motivation and purpose of being with God, would be selfish and not living for God's purpose.

Sure, i would be forgiven. But by living and (trying) to do God's Will, i am serving God, and not self.



You have absolutely no way of knowing what is serving god. Moreover, suicide is not prohibitted in the bible.

Suicide could very well be serving god, if not why wouldn't he explicitly prohibit it?



quote:

I think you might have misunderstood me. I am saying that if a christian commits suicide because they "just cant go on anymore", then i think it is questionable that the christian actually believed and trusted in Jesus in the first place. Else, why not put whatever was so terrible, into God's hand?

Because i am not God, i dont know what is in the heart of that person...i dont know if that person truely believed or not.... that is why i say that it is questionable.

You yourself answer the question, you don't know what is in his heart so this is mere speculation. That is as relevant as me speculating that she did truly believe in Jesus...

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Who said they couldn't act outside of selfishness? Who said they can't have altruistic motives? Nobody.

I'm saying that those altruistic motives are not valid reasons not to commit suicide, at least, not more valid than committing suicide itself.

P.S. Yes. You caught me. This was a ploy to have all Christians killed. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)



I say they can't have altruistic motives. Leaving Earth and going to Heaven is very selfish. What's altruistic about commiting suicide and entering utter bliss -- bliss one's self? D_S and the like are acting altrustic by staying behind (on Earth) and helping others find faith. That's altruistic. Leaving Earth and letting border-line Christians rot in Hell is not altruistic.

Of course staying behind isn't more valid than commiting suicide. How does validity even play a role here? D_S decides to stay behind, for his own reasons. Others might not.

What do you mean how does the validity play a role here? That's what I asking. I asked for valid reasons not to commit suicide.

They've given, in my opinion, none.

Staying on Earth is altruistic only if there is a need for you on Earth. If there is a need, then god, an omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent being, supposedly, would be refuted.

The fact is, if you are to kill yourself, then the Christian god knows this, and knew of this an infinite amount of time before our creation. That he doesn't send anyone else to do your job after your are gone, or that he doesn't do it himself, means that he doesn't care. Thus, there is no altruism involved; it is an unimportant, meaningless act to stay on Earth.

Antiquarian: I say they can't have altruistic motives. Leaving Earth and going to Heaven is very selfish. What's altruistic about commiting suicide and entering utter bliss -- bliss one's self? D_S and the like are acting altrustic by staying behind (on Earth) and helping others find faith. That's altruistic. Leaving Earth and letting border-line Christians rot in Hell is not altruistic.

Of course staying behind isn't more valid than commiting suicide. How does validity even play a role here? D_S decides to stay behind, for his own reasons. Others might not.

It is impossible for humans to have purely altruistic motives, simply because of the way the human brain works. Psychological hedonism states that humans always try to reach pleasure while avoiding displeasure. Logic is something that we use to see the future outcome of our actions, and we use it to weigh our decisions as to what is "best" to do. Of course, people sometimes make choices that result in bad outcomes, but this is due to a flaw in the brain's logic rather than purposely making a bad choice. So, to apply this to our Christians here talking about suicide...

Doing God's will makes Christians happy. Not doing God's will makes Christians ashamed. By doing what they think is God's will, and not committing suicide, they gain pleasure and avoid displeasure. Thus, there is an element of selfishness in their choice of not to commit suicide.

This selfishness can be seen further when you take Christians that think God's will is to hate non-Christians, like the fellows at Westboro Baptist Church.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

I just realized that Antiquarian was saying the same thing I just did. I'm such a 'tard.

Just consider it a deeper explanation of the idea.

edit: the more I read his post, the less I understand it. First he says that it's impossible for them to be altruistic, then he says they're being altruistic by staying on earth. urgg... brain starting to hurt.

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 08-01-2005).]

quote:Doing God's will makes Christians happy. Not doing God's will makes Christians ashamed. By doing what they think is God's will, and not committing suicide, they gain pleasure and avoid displeasure. Thus, there is an element of selfishness in their choice of not to commit suicide.

This selfishness can be seen further when you take Christians that think God's will is to hate non-Christians, like the fellows at Westboro Baptist Church. http://www.godhatesfags.com/

Obedience is not selfishness. If God didn't want us here, we wouldn't be here. He never gives us too much to handle, and therefore...we have no reason to kill ourselves.

As for your link...*perplexed* Not very Christlike, are they ?

I don't know ANY Christians like that.

*sad*

Digital_Savior: Obedience is not selfishness.

Obedience in itself is not, but the reasons for being obedient are. I will state them once again:

1) doing God's will makes Christians happy. they think they are doing the right thing, and thus get a warm, fuzzy feeling deep down inside http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

2) not doing God's will (sinning) would give Christians displeasure. It's not a good feeling to have guilt or shame.

Selfishness does not always involve short-term physical pleasure, although that often is the case.

Which is another reason Christians might want to hang around as they see it: extra credit from Teacher (HaKadosh Baruch Hu).

By the way, Catholicism IS the original Christian.

And from a non-specific standpoint, I think that suicide is bad because when you bring it down to it's basic elements, at least one person in the world would be ruined by your suicide, and it's a very selfish thing to do because you are only thinking of yourself and that you are too lazy to come up with other solutions to your problems.

Remember, problems are temporary, suicide is permanent.

- Tom

quote:Originally posted by Tom_Sawyer:

By the way, Catholicism IS the original Christian.



I'm sorry, but how did you arrive at this?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I'm sorry, but how did you arrive at this?



Catholic indoctrination.

Killing another is a greater sin than killing yourself...?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Beholder, it is not the nature of your death that is at issue. The eternal resting place of your soul is, and there is but one qualifier for entrance into heaven: complete redemption of our sin.

Acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior of your life is the single most important factor.

There is no justification for taking your life. From a humanistic standpoint, person A has a more legitimate reason, but you have to discredit God's ability to govern His own people in order to give such a scenario any logical merit.

From a spiritual standpoint, we are to trust God: "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." (Jeremiah 29:11)

God knows every and all situations we will encounter. Should we then play God, by finding justification for suicide based on our circumstances ?

Let us look at Job.

Job was the epitome of suffering. He was made a messenger by God not only to preach the true faith revolving around the oneness and supremacy of God, but also the demonstrate how a believer should never lose faith despite all the tribulations he might have to go through in its pursuit.

He was asked to take in his hand 'a bundle of rushes to strike with' and under no circumstances 'to go back on the oath' he had taken. He remained steadfast and firm in his commitment to his Creator. He was afflicted with a great deal of pain but he never wavered in his faith in God.

Now, was it his place to take his own life, in light of all he had endured ? He lost his family...his livelihood...his home...his power.

The answer is obvious: no.

So, the question really becomes, it is ok for a CHRISTIAN to commit suicide ?

The example you gave of person A and person B left out a very vital aspect of this topic: God.

For an unbeliever in God, it does not matter the method of their death (by their own hand, or by other means). Their destiny remains the same, since they don't believe in God.

For a believer, it is complete mistrust in God's ability to govern our lives to make a decision as weighty as whether or not we should continue to live.

That lack of faith in God is a sin, but if the person is truly saved, he/she will still go to heaven, no matter how they die. Judgment will be passed in the afterlife, however...and I don't know about you, but I don't want to be standing before the creator of the universe, trying to explain why I didn't trust Him enough to get me "through".

God never condones nor commands that we take our own life. You used the excuse that we are to follow the laws of the land, which state that we are to take our own life before we are taken captive, but this is in direct contradiction of God's will, which is to preserve life, so Christians are not bound by such legalities.

Our body is our temple, and each piece of the temple (each believer) is a part of God. If we are commanded to eat right and stay healthy, which we are, then where is the breakdown in communication regarding how we are to value our lives ?

The only reason we should ever want to die is in service to our Lord.

So what your saying DS, is that no matter what the circumstances are at the time. You don't have the right to end your own life, because what is happening is all part of God's plans, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

If your answer is yes, then my question would be. Why would God want someone to be taken hostage then repeatedly tortured, or they are diagnosed with a disease that is going to be extremely painful before it kills them. Then they should force themselves through the pain so as to honor God's wishes?

I've heard it said that God deosn't give you more than you can handle in your life. If this were true there would be no suicides at all.

Granted there are some individuals that think an anthill of a problem is a mountain in their minds, These are the exceptions to the rule though.



[This message has been edited by Nemisis (edited 08-01-2005).]

I know it's not relevant, but Rust and Digital are going to fall in love eventually.

quote:Originally posted by Shotties:

I know it's not relevant, but Rust and Digital are going to fall in love eventually.

opposites do attract http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:So what your saying DS, is that no matter what the circumstances are at the time. You don't have the right to end your own life, because what is happening is all part of God's plans, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying? I agree, you dont have the right to take your own life

If your answer is yes, then my question would be. Why would God want someone to be taken hostage then repeatedly tortured, or they are diagnosed with a disease that is going to be extremely painful before it kills them. Then they should force themselves through the pain so as to honor God's wishes?

I suppose it would be a good witnessing tool. It would make people say "DAYM! You went through all that and came out with a smile on your face? I want some of that!"

I've heard it said that God deosn't give you more than you can handle in your life. If this were true there would be no suicides at all.

There are those people who do not use what God gave them...

Granted there are some individuals that think an anthill of a problem is a mountain in their minds, These are the exceptions to the rule though.

No, those are the "picture in the dictionary" of alot of people that commit suicide. They dont realize that people have gone through what they have and survived.

You want to know what i really think about them? They are some of the most selfish people. They want attention so desperately and when they dont get it, there is no function for them to live. They want attention above all else and their life is meaningless without it.

There are those that are indeed suffering and do it to end the pain. They are a smaller bunch though.



Im probably putting words in DSs mouth by saying this but ohh well

Things could always get better.

Am I the only one getting tired of the "Selfishness" of the act as an excuse to despise those that commit suicide?

Honestly, people...

Is it any better to say, "You have no right to decide the outcome of your own life. I want you here, therefore, you are a selfish bastard if you leave me."?

Let's all learn how to spell hypocrisy.

quote:Originally posted by Antiquarian:

Leaving Earth and letting border-line Christians rot in Hell is not altruistic.



how nice of that very benevolent god to leave it up to digital saviours altruism to ensure that his sooooo well loved borderline christians behave well so that he doesnt decide to make them rot in hell... http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) anyways, thats apart from the point. now, tell me, is not taking your daily dose of insulin a sin for a diabetic person? you could die y'know.

pretty stupid thing to try and defend in my opinion. see below..

originally posted by digital saviour:

God never condones nor commands that we take our own life. You used the excuse that we are to follow the laws of the land, which state that we are to take our own life before we are taken captive, but this is in direct contradiction of God's will, which is to preserve life, so Christians are not bound by such legalities.



fair enough... next time you get a bacterial disease, dont cure yourself.... god wants you to preserve life ya?



The only reason we should ever want to die is in service to our Lord.



people like you incite suicide bombers in israel



Now, was it his place to take his own life, in light of all he had endured ? He lost his family...his livelihood...his home...his power.

The answer is obvious: no.



job had an advantage over the person A, in that gos spoke to him beforehand and said "do as i say, whatever the cost". that doesnt happen to most people who commit suicide.