I am a lutheran reviewing the catholic doctrine and find alot of it utterly assinine. I think I may be missing something, but from what I can conclude alot of what they're doing isn't biblical. Then someone told me of the "Fatima" visions/secrets; and I quite honestly have reason to believe it's demonic. I've reached this thesis (although not much of one) due to the simple verse Gal 1:7, in which it dictates that anyone (or perhaps, thing) preaching a gospel outside of traditional biblical texts is wrong and should be avoided. If I'm not mistaken, dosen't praying the rosary (which was advocated in the "fatima" visions, if I'm not mistaken) encompas casting anguish, fears, and troubles onto the virgin Mary, instead of jesus; therefor contradicting biblical texts? Something obviously happened, yet every catholic I've spoken to about this incident fixates on the magic tricks and not (what I believe to be) the conflicting doctrines. Does it not say within the bible that the devil will mix lies with the truth to confuse us? Are these visions misleading attributes by the devil himself to confuse and potentially destroy GOD's church? I just recently read partook of this debate, so forgive me if I'm ignorant or said something that didn't makes sense.

I thought the only difference between lutherans and catholics was that lutherans consider themselves their own priests and are in direct connection with god...

Don't they perceive everything in the bible the same way catholics do ? Sorry I haven't really payed much attention to your post. Sub-groups of the same religion just don't make sense to me, they all make mistakes in the end...

Do a search on Sola Scriptura and you will find sites that present information on both sides.

The thing I find most interesting is the idea that the oral traditions are omitted due to Sola Scriptura.

So...are Protestants missing something???

I don't know...

Beholder - I'm curious...have you found anything that resolves your questions?

I thought it was a good topic...but haven't really found definitive answers for myself.

Catholics are wrong. They believe that man can absolve u of ur sins.

Its a flawed doctrine. And they have no idea that they are all going to Hell because of it.

Man cannot save u. The only away into heaven is to except Jesus Christ as ur savior. They pray to saints(statues,not to mention Mary)...which is idoltry. Same thing with the roasary. U cannot worship things!

The problem is that they have done this for eons and won't admit that they are wrong. Their followers are all doomed. Its too much of a feel good doctrine. "be a good person and you'll go to heaven"...yeah right as if it were only so cut and dry. They also pay no attention to the book of Revelation.Which is the outline for the last days of man and time.

In the end we'll see who is right though.

[This message has been edited by xoctopusx (edited 08-15-2005).]

If their is a God that would send people to Hell who thought that they were worshiping Him correctly, then fuck him.

I'm not even sure if I believe in Heaven and Hell but if I did, I think it would be based upon the merit of the indivual, not the way someone worshipped or didn't.

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

Catholics are wrong. They believe that man can absolve u of ur sins.

Its a flawed doctrine. And they have no idea that they are all going to Hell because of it.

Man cannot save u. The only away into heaven is to except Jesus Christ as ur savior. They pray to saints(statues,not to mention Mary)...which is idoltry. Same thing with the roasary. U cannot worship things!

The problem is that they have done this for eons and won't admit that they are wrong. Their followers are all doomed. Its too much of a feel good doctrine. "be a good person and you'll go to heaven"...yeah right as if it were only so cut and dry. They also pay no attention to the book of Revelation.Which is the outline for the last days of man and time.

In the end we'll see who is right though.



If someone could misunderstand the tenets of Catholicism more than you have just done, I'd reckon that they'd be a vegetable.

Everything you just said has been brought up, and put down so many times it's laughable.

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

Catholics are wrong. They believe that man can absolve u of ur sins.

Its a flawed doctrine. And they have no idea that they are all going to Hell because of it.

Man cannot save u. The only away into heaven is to except Jesus Christ as ur savior. They pray to saints(statues,not to mention Mary)...which is idoltry. Same thing with the roasary. U cannot worship things!

The problem is that they have done this for eons and won't admit that they are wrong. Their followers are all doomed. Its too much of a feel good doctrine. "be a good person and you'll go to heaven"...yeah right as if it were only so cut and dry. They also pay no attention to the book of Revelation.Which is the outline for the last days of man and time.

In the end we'll see who is right though.





ur saying catholics have a feel good doctrine? Can I ask jesus into my heart then kill people and I will still go to heaven?

I don't want to be a grammar nazi but my lord xoctopusx do you think anyone will take any heed to what you say when you try and get your message across the way you do?

quote:Originally posted by miner69ner:

ur saying catholics have a feel good doctrine? Can I ask jesus into my heart then kill people and I will still go to heaven?

Technically I think that's right. You have to have a sincere apology for what you've done and accept Jesus into your heart and you will go to Heaven. Or at least that's one way into a magical utopia.

[This message has been edited by Paradise Lost (edited 08-16-2005).]

eh Christianity as a whole is whacked.

Boy...am I going to have to get into THIS one.

But...tomorrow.

Be nice, kids.

The correct answer was mormon

[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 08-16-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

Catholics are wrong. They believe that man can absolve u of ur sins.

Its a flawed doctrine. And they have no idea that they are all going to Hell because of it.

Man cannot save u. The only away into heaven is to except Jesus Christ as ur savior. They pray to saints(statues,not to mention Mary)...which is idoltry. Same thing with the roasary. U cannot worship things!

The problem is that they have done this for eons and won't admit that they are wrong. Their followers are all doomed. Its too much of a feel good doctrine. "be a good person and you'll go to heaven"...yeah right as if it were only so cut and dry. They also pay no attention to the book of Revelation.Which is the outline for the last days of man and time.

In the end we'll see who is right though.



I have to say that is sounds typically fundamentalist.

They pray to Mary, they pray to saints, they pray to loved ones for intercession...or so I have been told. That does not mean they do not pray directly to God.

[What is prayer? What is the purpose that it serves?]

The rosary strikes me as a meditative practice. They do not pray TO the rosary.

And Revelations...I doubt that very many people understand the Book of Revelations and I suspect that it is very much misused these days.

I never said they were evil people! I said they have a flawed doctrine.The whole conecpt of Catholicism is flawed. I also went to catholic school my whole life and I have a bit of knowledge on the subject.

I also believe they put way too much emphasis on saint worship,which is no no according to the 1st Commandment(if u believe). They also don't believe in accepting Jesus Christ as your saviour.

Man cannot save you! A priest cannot forgive u of your sins either! The preist will tell u to "go in peace ,don't do it again and say 10 Hail Mary's!" If thats not flawed I don't know what is.

Either way I stand behind my comment. Those who don't agree with me don't have to. And yes I'm a Christian(I know I have opened a can of worms with that statement)...Also what does my grammar have to do with the message, u can either accept it or reject it. And as for the Mod who said this was all disproved ,PROVE IT.



[This message has been edited by xoctopusx (edited 08-16-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

They also don't believe in accepting Jesus Christ as your saviour.



What? Right, they aren't Christians or anything.

Catholics are so into Christ, they'll drink his blood!

Right...

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

What? Right, they aren't Christians or anything.

Catholics are so into Christ, they'll drink his blood!

Right...

They don't believe in accepting Jesus Christ as their saviour!Perhaps u should actually read a bit on the subject matter instead being silly,this is NOT S.G. also check out John 3:16.

Listen, dumbass, I've been raised in a Catholic house and I've gone to a Catholic School since I was 4, so I know for a fact they accept Jesus Christ as their savior. He's one of their Holy Trinity; three beings in one god: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.



The Nicene Creed is a basic summation of Catholic Theology...

quote:

We believe in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth,

of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made,

of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation

he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,

and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in accordance with the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

and the life of the world to come. Amen.



Not their savior... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Ur not understanding what I posted. Perhaps I was too vauge. One must accept Jesus Christ as thier personal savior. As in being born again. Catholics are not born again Christians.

Hence this passage:

" Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. He came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God."

Jesus answered him, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again."



Catholics also believe in Purgatory. Purgatory is not in the bible anywhere but is in fact made up by the Roman Catholic Church...Another aspect of their "feel good faith".

How can u pray for the souls of dead people to enter Heaven?

2 Timothy 4:1:

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom"

Then theres John 14:6 :

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.



[This message has been edited by xoctopusx (edited 08-17-2005).]

How can you say that Catholics aren't born again? What catholic doctorine forbids rebirth of the soul? I'd love to read it.

There also is biblical support for purgatory.

Numbers 20:12 is the best example

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Read the whole thing if you want. It's perfectly supported by both logic, tradition, AND scripture.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

How can you say that Catholics aren't born again? What catholic doctorine forbids rebirth of the soul? I'd love to read it.

There also is biblical support for purgatory.

Numbers 20:12 is the best example

ht tp://www.n ewadvent.o rg/cathen/ 12575a.htm (http: //www.newa dvent.org/ cathen/125 75a.htm)

Read the whole thing if you want. It's perfectly supported by both logic, tradition, AND scripture.

Ur twisting my words...we both know its not true and ur reaching with ur statements. As for purgatory...theres is NO MENTION OF THE WORD IN THE BIBLE...did u even read ur own link? And once again Catholics don't believe they have to be "born again" to enter heaven! Reread my other post...They just believe one must be a "good person"...which is a bunch of hooey. Its gonna be a sad day when Christ comes back and all of those peopole who followed after the pope and the Roman Catholic church wind up burning eternally in the lake of fire...Not to sound mean or anything but just give it up already. I can back up my statments with actual bibilcal verses, not conjecture and silly inferences. Ur fighting a losing battle here give me one verse from the Bible that even mentions the word purgatory. And I'll leave this alone. But I know u can't http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)



[This message has been edited by xoctopusx (edited 08-17-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

Ur fighting a losing battle here give me one verse from the Bible that even mentions the word purgatory.

Catholic doctrine isn't based on Sola Scriptura, its based on the Papacy, as well.



Catholics don't believe you have to be just a good person: if you've been offered Christ, and turn him down, you'll most likely go to hell. You have to have faith to get to Heaven, unless you've never had the chance to hear of him, as in you're living in some obscure place, then it relies on your good actions.



Catholics believe in being "born again" just as much as any other Christian.

I've come to the conclusion that you don't know what you're talking about. Catholics usually get knocked for being the hardcore Christians, not the half-assed ones.

Let me reiterate: Catholic theology is not Sola Scriptura.

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

Ur twisting my words...we both know its not true and ur reaching with ur statements. As for purgatory...theres is NO MENTION OF THE WORD IN THE BIBLE...did u even read ur own link? And once again Catholics don't believe they have to be "born again" to enter heaven! Reread my other post...They just believe one must be a "good person"...which is a bunch of hooey. Its gonna be a sad day when Christ comes back and all of those peopole who followed after the pope and the Roman Catholic church wind up burning eternally in the lake of fire...Not to sound mean or anything but just give it up already. I can back up my statments with actual bibilcal verses, not conjecture and silly inferences. Ur fighting a losing battle here give me one verse from the Bible that even mentions the word purgatory. And I'll leave this alone. But I know u can't http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)





A lot of words aren't mentioned in the bible smart guy. This means that we have to infer from what is in the bible. Abortion isn't in the bible, but by golly we can draw an opinion on it from what is in there. Purgatory isn't in the bible, but guess what? We can do the same thing we do with abortion. We can infer and actually think about what is being said, instead of just taking everything at face value. I know it's probably hard for you fundies to understand, but I think you'll get it in due time...

It's called "contextual interpretation".

This doesn't have to become a flame war fellas, this isn't S.G !Can we keep it nice w/o being disrespectful to each other?

Catholics are NOT born again Christians ie:SAVED. They do not believe in the concept of being "SAVED" in order to enter heaven ...Do u understand that concept? I assume ur just nitpicking words,sadly. Don't distort what I'm saying in order to make yourself appear correct. And of course u were not able to find the word purgatory in the Bible [i]since it's not there and purgatory does not exsist.

[i]/Because it's made up http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)



Lastly being born again(ie:being saved) and baptism are not the same thing...Baptism is not a free pass,which is what Catholics seem to think . This and the whole purgatory debacle are just a few of the flaws of their doctrine.

And contextual interpatation leads me to point out what the thread starter obviously pointed out: Gal 1:7, in which it dictates that anyone (or perhaps, thing) preaching a gospel outside of traditional biblical texts is wrong and should be avoided.





[This message has been edited by xoctopusx (edited 08-17-2005).]

I can back up my statments with actual bibilcal verses, not conjecture and silly inferences.

I thought the bible was based on these

I know a catholic democrat.

I thought this^ was a forum for serious discussion?

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

Ur twisting my words...we both know its not true and ur reaching with ur statements. As for purgatory...theres is NO MENTION OF THE WORD IN THE BIBLE...did u even read ur own link? And once again Catholics don't believe they have to be "born again" to enter heaven! Reread my other post...They just believe one must be a "good person"...which is a bunch of hooey. Its gonna be a sad day when Christ comes back and all of those peopole who followed after the pope and the Roman Catholic church wind up burning eternally in the lake of fire...Not to sound mean or anything but just give it up already. I can back up my statments with actual bibilcal verses, not conjecture and silly inferences. Ur fighting a losing battle here give me one verse from the Bible that even mentions the word purgatory. And I'll leave this alone. But I know u can't http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)







i'm not a christian, but i was for 14 years... how can you believe that good people will suffer in hell if the're not "born again."

no offense, but i dont think i like your religion very much...

[This message has been edited by Knave (edited 08-17-2005).]

Listen to napoleon complex, he knows what he's talking about. he's good people. Prove them wrong, man, you're better at it than me

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

Listen to napoleon complex, he knows what he's talking about. he's good people. Prove them wrong, man, you're better at it than me

napoleon complex may be the mod of this forum. But I know what I'm talking about. I have some experience wiht this particular subject.

I was just out to prove that the Catholic doctrine was flawed. Which I proved. And anyone with half the brain of myself can research this and realize it for themselves...

I also made an effort to supply the passages and verses so the naysayers could read the truth for themselves. I under stand that ones religion or lack of is quite a touchy subject. I'm still waiting for someone to show me where purgatory is mentioned in the Bible.Or rosary's(sp) for the matter http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

xoctopusx





[This message has been edited by xoctopusx (edited 08-18-2005).]

You haven't even cited catholic doctorine once in this thread, yet you've managed to disprove it?

Anyways, what about abortion or euthenasia? These aren't mentioned in the bible, so what is your stance on them?

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

I'm still waiting for someone to show me where purgatory is mentioned in the Bible.Or rosary's(sp) for the matter http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

xoctopusx

Even if it's not in the Bible, it wouldn't matter, because Catholic faith (for maybe the third time?) isn't based on Sola Scriptura.

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

" Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. He came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God."

Jesus answered him, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again."







Just one question...are you born again???? If so...then may I presume you have seen the kingdom of God personally?

If not...then it seems to me that you have not yet been 'born again'...???

What is 'born again'....???

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

And contextual interpatation leads me to point out what the thread starter obviously pointed out: Gal 1:7, in which it dictates that anyone (or perhaps, thing) preaching a gospel outside of traditional biblical texts is wrong and should be avoided.





Another question...but at that time wouldn't the traditional biblical texts have been the Old Testament texts???

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

napoleon complex may be the mod of this forum. But I know what I'm talking about. I have some experience wiht this particular subject.

I was just out to prove that the Catholic doctrine was flawed. Which I proved. And anyone with half the brain of myself can research this and realize it for themselves...

I also made an effort to supply the passages and verses so the naysayers could read the truth for themselves. I under stand that ones religion or lack of is quite a touchy subject. I'm still waiting for someone to show me where purgatory is mentioned in the Bible.Or rosary's(sp) for the matter http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

xoctopusx







I don't think you have sufficiently proved anything at this point. Purgatory could very well be an oral tradition that was missed out on because of Sola Scriptura.

...come on fellas u have to do better than that, give me some passages or something. I deal with whats in the bible not conjecture...it gets murky when people take artistic lisecne with the bible, which is what some of u are doing. I'm simply stating what is written...

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

...come on fellas u have to do better than that, give me some passages or something. I deal with whats in the bible not conjecture...it gets murky when people take artistic lisecne with the bible, which is what some of u are doing. I'm simply stating what is written...

What about abortion and euthenasia? What about blackmail? What about slavery?

Three of those things aren't mentioned in the bible, and the other is allowed in the bible, so I take it those things would all be perfectly acceptable according to you, correct?

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

...come on fellas u have to do better than that, give me some passages or something. I deal with whats in the bible not conjecture...it gets murky when people take artistic lisecne with the bible, which is what some of u are doing. I'm simply stating what is written...

So...You must be unable to answer my questions.

quote:Originally posted by outcast:

So...You must be unable to answer my questions.



Don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back.

The doctrine of sola scriptura is,the idea of an absolute right of private judgment in the interpretation of the Scriptures...this goes against Gal 1:7.

Once again more proof that Catholics have to bend scripture to fit their doctrine...Did u even read any of my posts? Why should there be any interpretation to the word? Do u even know anything about the Bible? If it's not there it's not there...I understand ur need to want to be correct but seriously this is non factor. The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority!Sola Scriptura ...is nowhere to be found in the Bible.Just like the rosary,purgatory,praying to anyone other than the Lord. I would love for any of u to find this in the Bible. I welcome it. But alas u won't find it. Because it was made up...once again the deviously flawed Catholic doctrine does it's followers a disservice.

Read my post^, and all of ur answers are there. I'm not saying this stuff up to be a jerk. Revisionist Biblical text is to be AVOIDED.

Gal 1:7= distorting the word is wrong.

As I said give me a verse from the Bible to disprove what I have said here. But u can't http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by xoctopusx (edited 08-20-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

What about abortion and euthenasia? What about blackmail? What about slavery?

Three of those things aren't mentioned in the bible, and the other is allowed in the bible, so I take it those things would all be perfectly acceptable according to you, correct?

^^^

Man is not perfect so he will go against what is right and sin and commit evil acts...

Man will rebel until he submits to the Lord...it's that simple.Though most(submit) won't sadly. It's all a matter of whats important to a person in the long run.

Also theres plenty of instances of slavery and evil(all kinds of wild goings on) doing in the bible. Remember the Jews were held in bondage(slaves) to the Egyptians until they were freed...

Both David and Samson killed people...in fact many of Gods chosen were flawed in their make up. But eventually they did what they had to do... because they wanted to. But truthfully they didn't have anything!

Lastly man is a sinner! This is a fact! It's in his nature to want to go against whats right even when he knows it's wrong and a sin.

Look at Adam and Eve, they had it made. All they had to do is listen,and trust God.

But because of free will they paid dearly. Thus we all suffer now http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

God gives us all free will to deny or accept him. No one has to do anything. Though I'm quite sure he would like us to.





[This message has been edited by xoctopusx (edited 08-20-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

Don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back.

The doctrine of sola scriptura is,the idea of an absolute right of [b]private judgment in the interpretation of the Scriptures...this goes against Gal 1:7. [/b

Hmm..."sola" meaning "only", and "scriptura" meaning "scripture", means "only scripture". That is, following this doctrine, one's faith is based on nothing but a literal interpretation of the bible.

quote:

The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority! Sola Scriptura ...is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

Are you Protestant?

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Are you Protestant?

...I am a proud practicing Baptist which would make me Protestant. I also went to Catholic school for 12 years...and yes I am an active member of a church.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

What about abortion and euthenasia? What about blackmail? What about slavery?

Three of those things aren't mentioned in the bible, and the other is allowed in the bible, so I take it those things would all be perfectly acceptable according to you, correct?

Would you please answer this fucking question?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

If someone could misunderstand the tenets of Catholicism more than you have just done, I'd reckon that they'd be a vegetable.

Kind of a pointless post on my part, but you don't know HOW hard I laughed after that.

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

This doesn't have to become a flame war fellas, this isn't S.G !Can we keep it nice w/o being disrespectful to each other?

Catholics are NOT born again Christians ie:SAVED. They do not believe in the concept of being "SAVED" in order to enter heaven ...Do u understand that concept? I assume ur just nitpicking words,sadly. Don't distort what I'm saying in order to make yourself appear correct. [b]And of course u were not able to find the word purgatory in the Bible since it's not there and purgatory does not exsist.

Because it's made up http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)



Lastly being born again(ie:being saved) and baptism are not the same thing...Baptism is not a free pass,which is what Catholics seem to think . This and the whole purgatory debacle are [b]just a few of the flaws of their doctrine.

"Jesus answered him, 'Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again.'"

Alright. Where in the Bible does it say what being "born again" is?

How do I get myself saved? Do I have to become Baptist and start giving the Baptist Church 10% of my income? Do I have to attend your banquets, and buy your Bible? Do I have to accept Jesus as my savior? Must I attempt to clone myself so I can be truly "born again"?

I was always taught at Religious Education (I used to be Catholic) that Baptism absolves me of original sin, not all sin. EDIT: It only absolved me of original sin because I was baptized as an infant. If I had been baptized when I was older, I would have been absolved of all sin. So Baptism isn't a "free pass", if you're baptized as an infant.



[This message has been edited by Inti (edited 08-21-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority!Sola Scriptura ...is nowhere to be found in the Bible.



quote:

Hmm..."sola" meaning "only", and "scriptura" meaning "scripture", means "only scripture". That is, following this doctrine, one's faith is based on nothing but a literal interpretation of the bible.



Nice job. Really.

*waits for someone to add something interesting or even intelligent to this thread*

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

*waits for someone to add something interesting or even intelligent to this thread*

How about making that 'someone', you...?

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

*waits for someone to add something interesting or even intelligent to this thread*

I guess someone else will have to do that, since it appears you're incapable of the task... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

^^^I didn't mean it in that way...I like to hear his views on things like this...

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I guess someone else will have to do that, since it appears you're incapable of the task... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

well when they do, please let me know!

because at the moment all i can see (with a couple of exceptions) is some catholics whose lack of knowledge of their own confession is only matched by their lack of knowledge of the opposite denominations.

and the 'protestants' in this thread make the catholics look intelligent.

And because you say it, it must be true!

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

You spend more time talking yourself up than you do talking about religion.

Sometimes I think the only reason you come in this forum is to grandstand, because the lord knows you don't do much else in here...

quote:Originally posted by xoctopusx:

Don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back.

The doctrine of sola scriptura is,the idea of an absolute right of private judgment in the interpretation of the Scriptures...this goes against Gal 1:7.

Once again more proof that Catholics have to bend scripture to fit their doctrine...Did u even read any of my posts? Why should there be any interpretation to the word? Do u even know anything about the Bible? If it's not there it's not there...I understand ur need to want to be correct but seriously this is non factor. The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority!Sola Scriptura ...is nowhere to be found in the Bible.Just like the rosary,purgatory,praying to anyone other than the Lord. I would love for any of u to find this in the Bible. I welcome it. But alas u won't find it. Because it was made up...once again the deviously flawed Catholic doctrine does it's followers a disservice.

Read my post^, and all of ur answers are there. I'm not saying this stuff up to be a jerk. Revisionist Biblical text is to be AVOIDED.

Gal 1:7= distorting the word is wrong.

As I said give me a verse from the Bible to disprove what I have said here. But u can't http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



Well...I have to say that with this response I have no idea whether you are in agreement with Sola Scriptura or against it...(you do know that Sola Scriptura is not a Catholic doctrine, but rather, a Protestant doctrine...right? That scripture is to override tradition whenever a conflict is found.)

[quote]"the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura ("Scripture alone") teaches that every teaching in Christian theology (everything pertaining to "faith and practice") must be able to be derived from Scripture alone. " [quote]

However, you still have not answered my questions. But that's okay...they're not really all that relevant to this thread anyway.

[This message has been edited by outcast (edited 08-22-2005).]

I'll address this point by point, then the thread can die.

quote:Originally posted by Beholder:

Then someone told me of the "Fatima" visions/secrets; and I quite honestly have reason to believe it's demonic.

The Fatima apparition is just one of many apparitions over the centuries. However, this is probably the most believed since upwards of 50,000 people witnessed it in person(including journalists). A vision of mary or Jesus, in my book at least, is no more demonic than a baptist feeling the presence of God in their body; or someone saying they saw God/Jesus/Mary on their deathbed.

quote: I've reached this thesis (although not much of one) due to the simple verse Gal 1:7, in which it dictates that anyone (or perhaps, thing) preaching a gospel outside of traditional biblical texts is wrong and should be avoided.

The Fatima apparition isn't preached though. It is simply an incident that many look to for inspiration. It's a spiritual tool, prayer by a different name.

quote:If I'm not mistaken, dosen't praying the rosary (which was advocated in the "fatima" visions, if I'm not mistaken) encompas casting anguish, fears, and troubles onto the virgin Mary, instead of jesus; therefor contradicting biblical texts?

This is biblically supported though. Mary comforts Jesus in the bible. Catholics believe that Mary can also comfort them, through meditation(which is what saying the Rosary is basically). They also don't believe that they should pray to Mary and not Jesus, they just recognize the qualities or Mary and pray to her during certain times(just like they'll pray to certain saints during a specific situation like childbirth).

quote:Does it not say within the bible that the devil will mix lies with the truth to confuse us? Are these visions misleading attributes by the devil himself to confuse and potentially destroy GOD's church?

Yes, but who can say what is real and what isn't? What makes your perception of what is true more valid than the Catholics perception?

IMO, you're all equal.

I live by whats in the Bible...Though sometimes common sense must come into play when dealing with the scripture, this is obvious! But if it's not right it's simply not right. I hope this clears up some of the confusion...

If not I don't know what else to say. All of my arguements are supported by the proper Biblical passages.

And I don't hate Catholics...I pity them though. everyone feels like they are following the word of the God...no one feels that their religion is wrong. Some people are willing to strap bombs for their God...go figure.

[This message has been edited by xoctopusx (edited 08-22-2005).]

quote:This is biblically supported though. Mary comforts Jesus in the bible. Catholics believe that Mary can also comfort them, through meditation(which is what saying the Rosary is basically). They also don't believe that they should pray to Mary and not Jesus, they just recognize the qualities or Mary and pray to her during certain times(just like they'll pray to certain saints during a specific situation like childbirth).

i rest my case.

---------------------------------

and why do i come to this forum? well believe it or not , there are a few people here who 1. actually know what they are talking about and 2. have interesting and informative points of view that are often at great variance with my own.

for example there's Seph who knows more than i would ever want to know about the jewish faith and who has corerected several of my mistakes.

there's DS who is always happy to give me a blow by bllow account of the evangelical view on things.

there's Rust who could argue the hind legs off a paraplegic donkey and get it to walk again.

there's Inq , whose knowledge of the scriptures betters my own.

there's xteem ,who is one of those rare evangelicals who doesn't see scholarship as a threat to his personal faith.

and Outcast who has an unerring abiltiy to find flaws in my arguements ....

You've managed yet again to make a post with ZERO substance.

You really really have shown your worth here. You talk down others while providing NOTHING to the discussion.

I applaud your inability to do anything worthwhile.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

and Outcast who has an unerring abiltiy to find flaws in my arguements ....

I do? Thanks... http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I find I have more questions than answers...

quote:Originally posted by outcast:

Another question...but at that time wouldn't the traditional biblical texts have been the Old Testament texts???



xoctopusx: [or anyone else, really]

I'm still looking for this answer.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

You've managed yet again to make a post with ZERO substance.

You really really have shown your worth here. You talk down others while providing NOTHING to the discussion.

I applaud your inability to do anything worthwhile.

remember that old saying about 'better to be thought a fool and keep your mouth shut , than to open it and remove all doubt'?

well when you post things this idiotic and just plain wrong : quote:This is biblically supported though. Mary comforts Jesus in the bible. Catholics believe that Mary can also comfort them, through meditation(which is what saying the Rosary is basically). They also don't believe that they should pray to Mary and not Jesus, they just recognize the qualities or Mary and pray to her during certain times(just like they'll pray to certain saints during a specific situation like childbirth

then there is little point in me saying anything because you obviously first need to get to grips with the basic tenets of the catholic faith.



post something intelligent, informed and worth my spending time considering and i'll discuss it .

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

then there is little point in me saying anything because you obviously first need to get to grips with the basic tenets of the catholic faith.



post something intelligent, informed and worth my spending time considering and i'll discuss it .



WOW!

Yet again you manage to make a post with ZERO substance. What does that bring your total up to? Has to be at least triple digits by now, right?

Edit:If you got off your grandstand, and actually pointed out what you think is wrong, maybe this could move forward...

Whay do Catholics pray to Mary? (http://www.udayton.edu/mary/questions/faq/faq17.html)

Let me guess, is that beneath you too?



[This message has been edited by napoleon_complex (edited 08-22-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by outcast:

xoctopusx: [or anyone else, really]

I'm still looking for this answer.



yes...and no, the Gospel was meant to be "The New Covenant" between God and man. But that does not mean to abandon the commandments...or to forget the struggles of Noah,Moses,Job or David. If u think about it the 3 major religions use the old testament to some point. Jews,Muslims,Christians. There is obviously something there.

The New Testament is about Jesus...And the forshadowing of the end of time. Once again John 3:16 comes into play.

Let me pose this question...

Go to this link and read:

http://tinyurl.com/9gb24



If all the books are not the same...how do you know which ones are correct???

When reading the OT I go to my copy of the Tanakh because I trust that more than the others.

But when you have versions of the Holy Bible that have books added, verses added, (or maybe even omitted), etc...

How do you know what is 'God's words' and what is not???