To the Christians, Muslims, etc. of &totse:

Can any of you provide [compelling] evidence of your diety's existance without citing holy texts or trying to convince others of your personal beliefs just because you have a feeling?

When I say feeling don't tell me you know God, Allah, or whoever exists. Regardless of what you say, you do not know that for a fact. Believers have convinced themselves of his existance. This knowledge you think you have is merely belief and faith. Both of which are no guarantee.

EDIT: I am not bashing your God. I'm simply seeing how well you can prove your beliefs to us non-believers.

I respect those of you who have found that happiness in your life, and hope it continues to bring you happiness.

[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 08-20-2005).]

I wish happiness to everyone. I don't try to force my beliefs on anyone, but, due to the strength of my faith, I do hope people will understand my beliefs to the point where they say "Hang on!, that really is a possibility".

My belief is that we are all God, we are all the creator.

My proof is that I exist and that I create.

I will be one of the first to admit that God's existance is possible. No, I do not believe in Him, but then again, I don't know everything.

What aggrevates me is followers of a religion who cite the Bible, Koran, etc. as their proof. They recite a few verses, and expect others to accept that as a valid argument.

Well guess what... Those texts are accepted by you (believers) as the "Inspired Word of God". So how can you honestly expect a nonbeliever to accept that as proof?

I do not deny that many Biblical things display a positive message. In fact, I would back the Bible in that respect. But there's GOT to be other evidence you (believers) can come up with other than aspects or objects of your own faith.

quote:My belief is that we are all God, we are all the creator.

My proof is that I exist and that I create.

Set out as an arguemnt that would look something like -

1) I exist

2) I create

Therefore 3) We are all God and we are all

the creator.

...good one.

Koran somewhere

"I created the universe and i am constantly expanding it"

Big Bang Anyone.

Somewhere else

"All living things came from smaller living things( something like that)"

Cell Theory

But i do like that "i am god" policy *cough satanist*

I wish there was an Idol worshiper here who could send us a picture of their God.

I constantly go around saying I worship the Nordic Gods (my favorite) just to piss off all the hardcore Christian friends I have. They'll usually tell me how can I be so stupid they don't exist, when I tell them to cast that critical eye on their own supreme being they get a little flustered...

Anyways, like you said, they believe because of faith, and because almost all the time their religion is the same doctrine their parents adhere to.

Hell, I don't know why people would place their faith in something that we can't even properly define without heated debate.

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

[B]They'll usually tell me how can I be so stupid they don't exist, when I tell them to cast that critical eye on their own supreme being they get a little flustered...

B]

I like that. I like that a lot.

It seems to me that the only people willing to admit a possibility of something other than their own beliefs are the ones who believe in nothing.

quote:Originally posted by Goat Saint:

I like that. I like that a lot.

It seems to me that the only people willing to admit a possibility of something other than their own beliefs are the ones who believe in nothing.

Not really there are a lot of people who try to find god and don't really have a religion. There are even very religious people who look into other religions and into there own and they continue to believe because of there faith or stop believing for other reasons. I don't believe there is a god but I know that it would be impossible to know or prove whether there was or wasn't either way. Religions in my opinion have never been based on proof they've been based on trying to find answers. That makes it impossible to prove either way.

Some base there beliefs on the fact that some say they've been spoken to by god. Whether or not you believe they were or not is a big decision in your religion. I don't think this is a valid arguement because if it happened today most people would assume a mental illness but no one in a religion that believes in this would say that the creator of there religion was mentally ill. <--that's what everyone else is for http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by sketchy:

That makes it impossible to prove either way.



I know that, as do many of you.

I just wish everyone was as willing to entertain that notion. Not that I'll try to force it upon people. But I would be nice to think that everyone on Earth has the capability to question even their firmest beliefs.

What is it that makes us always have to be right?

Again, this thread wasn't intended to bash any religions or force my belief upon anyone.

And I've yet to see any response from an actual practicing member of a religion.

EDIT: Also.. If so many of us are wrong, and God does exist, wouldn't it make sense that when we go to Hell it wouldn't be so bad.

I mean think about it. If we reject God in our lives, don't you think Satan would treat us like kings in our deaths?

Furthermore, if we went to Heaven much of our God given free will would be stripped from us. No more drugs/drinking, cursing, sex/masturbation, etc. I'm sure there are plenty other things that would no longer be an option as well.





[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 08-21-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Goat Saint:

Also.. If so many of us are wrong, and God does exist, wouldn't it make sense that when we go to Hell it wouldn't be so bad.

I mean think about it. If we reject God in our lives, don't you think Satan would treat us like kings in our deaths?

Furthermore, if we went to Heaven much of our God given free will would be stripped from us. No more drugs/drinking, cursing, sex/masturbation, etc. I'm sure there are plenty other things that would no longer be an option as well.

I see this so many times, the problem with this is you're assuming that the Judeo-Christian God is the only one.

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

I see this so many times, the problem with this is you're assuming that the Judeo-Christian God is the only one.

You're right. I was just basing this on the basis that God/Heaven and Satan/Hell were what comes after death.

According to my previous posts I realize this is faulty, as I express the acknowledged possibility of ANY diety/dieties. Whether it be God, Allah, or your beloved Norse Aegis of Odin, Tyr, Balder, etc. Or of course, none at all.

I was just recording a thought though, not necessarily saying it's either the Christian belief or none at all.

[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 08-21-2005).]

Why are you assuming I haven't questioned whether or not there is a god? But, even in this thread you are asking to find proof and there is none.

Causal Proof:

<OL TYPE=1>

<LI>I have an idea of a perfect being.

<LI>Ideas are effects, so this idea has a cause.

<LI>A cause can't be less perfect than its effect.

<LI>I am not the cause of this idea because an imperfect being cannot cause the idea of a perfect being.

<LI>A perfect being exists. Furthermore, there is exactly one perfect being.

</OL>

quote:Originally posted by sketchy:

Why are you assuming I haven't questioned whether or not there is a god? But, even in this thread you are asking to find proof and there is none.

I haven't made a single assumption about you.

And I did not ask for proof. If you look at my primary post, you'll see I requested "compelling evidence".

I am aware there is no possible way to obtain 100% valid proof of His existance. If you read my post, you'll observe I asked if anyone could argue on His behalf without using an aspect of their religion such as holy text or teachings.

quote:Originally posted by bonkers:

Causal Proof:

<OL TYPE=1>

<LI>I have an idea of a perfect being.

<LI>Ideas are effects, so this idea has a cause.

<LI>A cause can't be less perfect than its effect.

<LI>I am not the cause of this idea because an imperfect being cannot cause the idea of a perfect being.

<LI>A perfect being exists. Furthermore, there is exactly one perfect being.

</OL>

I suppose I can go with that.

In that respect God exists in you, as Christians believe He does. But he exists as an idea, not a tangible, physical entity. This kind of reminds me of herbal healing and things of that sort.

What I mean is, if you believe in something enough, positive things will happen, and one would tend to discount the negative.

Example: A devout Christian is healed of a disease because they have faith. A nonbeliever may be healed of the same disease because they have faith in their methods of treatment. It's not unheard of.

If ideas are effects then this idea must have a cause. What was the cause that led to your idea of God?



[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 08-21-2005).]

You know...I have been largely absent from this forum for a few weeks...intentionally.

I was [_______] that close to forever quitting. I have many reasons, but the most important reason was disgust (regarding many aspects of Totse as a whole).

But you know what ? This is a great damn forum. So, I think I am going to stay.

And now I have kinda shot myself in the foot, because I have SO much catching up to do...starting in THIS thread, after I have gotten some sleep. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I only wish I weren't the only Christian on this forum...Xtreem post's sometimes, but I am pretty much on my own. You can't possibly imagine how badly that sucks.

On with the show, though...cryin' about it isn't going to make any progress !

I'll be posting, shortly.

quote:Originally posted by bonkers:

Causal Proof:

<OL TYPE=1>

<LI>I have an idea of a perfect being.

<LI>Ideas are effects, so this idea has a cause.

<LI>A cause can't be less perfect than its effect.

<LI>I am not the cause of this idea because an imperfect being cannot cause the idea of a perfect being.

<LI>A perfect being exists. Furthermore, there is exactly one perfect being.

</OL>

Interesting...see this now.

<LI>A cause can't be less perfect than its effect.

<LI>We are the effect of a perfect being.

<LI>We are imperfect.

<LI>A perfect being does not exist.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You know...I have been largely absent from this forum for a few weeks...intentionally.

I was [_______] that close to forever quitting. I have many reasons, but the most important reason was disgust (regarding many aspects of Totse as a whole).

But you know what ? This is a great damn forum. So, I think I am going to stay.

And now I have kinda shot myself in the foot, because I have SO much catching up to do...starting in THIS thread, after I have gotten some sleep. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I only wish I weren't the only Christian on this forum...Xtreem post's sometimes, but I am pretty much on my own. You can't possibly imagine how badly that sucks.

On with the show, though...cryin' about it isn't going to make any progress !

I'll be posting, shortly.

Don't go, please... I want you to stay.

quote:Originally posted by heidegger:

Don't go, please... I want you to stay.

So do I, I love watching her and Rust get it on.

quote:Causal Proof:



1. I have an idea of a perfect being.

2. Ideas are effects, so this idea has a cause.

3. A cause can't be less perfect than its effect.

4. I am not the cause of this idea because an imperfect being cannot cause the idea of a perfect being.

5. A perfect being exists. Furthermore, there is exactly one perfect being.

Causal Proof:



1. I have an idea of a perfect invisible elephant that controls the tides.

2. Ideas are effects, so this idea has a cause.

3. A cause can't be less perfect than its effect.

4. I am not the cause of this idea because an imperfect being cannot cause the idea of a perfect elephant.

5. A perfect elephant that controls the tides exists. Furthermore, there is exactly one perfect elephant that controls the tides.

Put simply that argument could be used to prove just about anything...not only that, why can't a cause be less perfect than its effect - order can come from disorder.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



I'll be posting, shortly.

I look forward to it. I'm anxious to finally read a Christian's response to my initial post.

And you don't have to worry, I won't criticize anything you have to say. I'm one of the [rare] well behaved totse members who enjoys a good conversation/debate. As opposed to a spamming, illiterate adolescent.



[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 08-21-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Causal Proof:



1. I have an idea of a perfect invisible elephant that controls the tides.

2. Ideas are effects, so this idea has a cause.

3. A cause can't be less perfect than its effect.

4. I am not the cause of this idea because an imperfect being cannot cause the idea of a perfect elephant.

5. A perfect elephant that controls the tides exists. Furthermore, there is exactly one perfect elephant that controls the tides.

Put simply that argument could be used to prove just about anything...not only that, why can't a cause be less perfect than its effect - order can come from disorder.



Even better. Why would a perfect being create an imperfect being that doubts?

Where God is defined as "the being that created the universe", God has to exist. The Christian idea of a guy who lives on a cloud is either ridiculous or a metaphor, depending on how you interpret it.

quote:I only wish I weren't the only Christian on this forum...Xtreem post's sometimes, but I am pretty much on my own. You can't possibly imagine how badly that sucks.

uhm no you're not the only christian here...not even judging by what you call chrisitanity (what i call neo-mithrian).

you just the most vocal of the yokels :P

Religion is nothing more than heresay and conjecture. The bible and other majour religious texts were written before we even new the earth was round, and voices in your head were god's voice, and not a case of schitzophrenia. All I have to ask is, what is the purpose of religion, or what does it do to help society? I don't see religion doing anything other than collecting money, and being a symbol of power. Religion is brainwashing for profit, nothing less and nothing more. If you believe in something that doesn't make sense, and worst of all except it as truth, you're either stupid or brainwashed. Blind faith is the irrational, idiotic thing I've ever even heard of, it's proof or shut the fuck up.

quote:Originally posted by bonkers:



Even better. Why would a perfect being create an imperfect being that doubts?

Well, you're not entirely correct here.

(Someone please correct me if I'm wrong) According to the Christian belief, Adam was the first man, so you are a direct descendant of him.

When he ate the fruit of the tree he was commanded not to, he plunged us all into sin. We are sinners from the moment we are born, because of Adam's diliberate disobedience.

But there was a second Adam (Jesus), who did the opposite of the first man, and obeyed God's every word.

Soooo. Being born of Adam results in sin. Being reborn in Christ results in absolution.

Again, according to the Christian belief.

quote:Originally posted by Goat Saint:

Well, you're not entirely correct here.

(Someone please correct me if I'm wrong) According to the Christian belief, Adam was the first man, so you are a direct descendant of him.

When he ate the fruit of the tree he was commanded not to, he plunged us all into sin. We are sinners from the moment we are born, because of Adam's diliberate disobedience.

But there was a second Adam (Jesus), who did the opposite of the first man, and obeyed God's every word.

Soooo. Being born of Adam results in sin. Being reborn in Christ results in absolution.

Again, according to the Christian belief.





First, Adam was not the one who ate the fruit first, Eve did. And then Eve persuaded Adam to eat it. Second, that has nothing to do with my question. I'm questioning a "perfect being," not the Judeo-Christian god.

quote:Originally posted by bonkers:



First, Adam was not the one who ate the fruit first, Eve did. And then Eve persuaded Adam to eat it. Second, that has nothing to do with my question. I'm questioning a "perfect being," not the Judeo-Christian god.

Yes, I am fully aware the talking serpant tricked Eve into eating of the fruit, who consequently convinced her husband to eat it.

And touche, you did make mention of a "perfect being", not "God". My apology.

It was applicable to the Judeo-Christian God, however, as you said and as I realized, you did not specify which "perfect being" was being discussed. Force of habit, I suppose. I'll need to break that.

So to [not answer your question] no one can know why a perfect being created an imperfect one. Perhaps it was to rule over the land. Perhaps it was to keep the entity company or entertained. Perhaps it was to have man question everything, and make an individual decision.

Just as we can never know for sure if there is a "perfect being", we can never know the meanings of our lives, and we can never know which is the right religion (only the right one for ourselves).

EDIT: I know if I were the creator of the universe I would take great pride if I created man as he is now. I would love to know that I made a being capable of thinking, reasoning, and concluding for themselves. I do not like to force my ideas upon people now - I would not enjoy it as God either.

Maybe that's why a creator made us the way we are. He/She may take great pride in observing the intellectual, free-willed, and every growing race they created.

Who knows...



[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 08-22-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You know...I have been largely absent from this forum for a few weeks...intentionally.

I was [_______] that close to forever quitting. I have many reasons, but the most important reason was disgust (regarding many aspects of Totse as a whole).

But you know what ? This is a great damn forum. So, I think I am going to stay.

And now I have kinda shot myself in the foot, because I have SO much catching up to do...starting in THIS thread, after I have gotten some sleep. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I only wish I weren't the only Christian on this forum...Xtreem post's sometimes, but I am pretty much on my own. You can't possibly imagine how badly that sucks.

On with the show, though...cryin' about it isn't going to make any progress !

I'll be posting, shortly.

Perhaps these might help some with some insight and rekindle some passion (i've worded that wrong--- The Holy Spirit takes care of that, but i think what i'm trying to say, comes across well enough):

http://tinyurl.com/dbfpa

http://tinyurl.com/bj4x8

Keep the Faith... Trust in the Lord. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Goat Saint:

Well, you're not entirely correct here.

(Someone please correct me if I'm wrong) According to the Christian belief, Adam was the first man, so you are a direct descendant of him.

When he ate the fruit of the tree he was commanded not to, he plunged us all into sin. We are sinners from the moment we are born, because of Adam's diliberate disobedience.

But there was a second Adam (Jesus), who did the opposite of the first man, and obeyed God's every word.

Soooo. Being born of Adam results in sin. Being reborn in Christ results in absolution.

Again, according to the Christian belief.





In other words, we are sin-poisoned at birth, and the antidote comes with a price. Quite a powerful blackmail.

The idea of original sin, taken at literal value anyway, is one of the most insanely unfair concepts ever.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:



In other words, we are sin-poisoned at birth, and the antidote comes with a price. Quite a powerful blackmail.

The idea of original sin, taken at literal value anyway, is one of the most insanely unfair concepts ever.

I whole-heartedly agree.

[Gen. 2:17] You must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it, you shall surely die.

Adam and Eve did eat the forbidden fruit, and doomed all of mankind to one day die. I think Adam lived 900 some years, but in the end he DID die.

Because of THEIR mistake, we will one day keel over. So it's accept God, or else.

Shit, if I lived in the garden, and I saw and spoke with God, I would believe in Him. Furthermore, I wouldn't have disobeyed, as I'd probably shit my pants if I saw God.

Why do I have to go to Hell because two people ate some fruit I never even laid eyes on?



[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 08-22-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:



In other words, we are sin-poisoned at birth, and the antidote comes with a price. Quite a powerful blackmail.

The idea of original sin, taken at literal value anyway, is one of the most insanely unfair concepts ever.



I disagree. If you look at sin also as a genetic defect, it is an understandable picture.

As far as "unfair", how "unfair" was it for God to send Himself to come to the rescue?

Not only that, but we can refuse the "antidote" if we choose. That's not blackmail. That is an offer of a gift. A Gift that has already been paid for.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Not only that, but we can refuse the "antidote" if we choose. That's not blackmail. That is an offer of a gift. A Gift that has already been paid for.

Then it seems it's both. Yes, one may choose the "gift". But if one doesn't, one is threatened with eternal damnation.

Maybe one day in my life I will take God's gift and go to Heaven. Maybe one day I'll go to Hell. Maybe one day I'll die, and nothing.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



I disagree. If you look at sin also as a genetic defect, it is an understandable picture.

Huh?

I'm not sure I got this correctly, but do elaborate cause it should be funny.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



As far as "unfair", how "unfair" was it for God to send Himself to come to the rescue?

Rescue from something he caused? Rescue from something even babies are supposedly guilty of? I still don't see any fairness enter into it.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Not only that, but we can refuse the "antidote" if we choose. That's not blackmail. That is an offer of a gift. A Gift that has already been paid for.

Please. A gift is for free. No conditions whatsoever. This is not the case here.

Religion is is more or less of a nuetral thing. It brings order and also chaos, It brings love and also hate you get the point. It is an essential thing in society to have faith in God whether he exists or not. I'm a Christian and I believe in an afterlife and it makes me feel better when I think about it when im feeling down. God created us to test our faith in him. In order to have free will one must be imperfect. But then again Jesus was perfect and he had free will like all the rest of us.

So that doesnt make much sense does it? That makes me think about how the greys claimed to have created Christ. The greys have long been on earth even in ancient times in Japan maybe even longer who knows ill have to do more research on that, but i strongly doubt they have anything to do with this. If God didn't give us free will and our intellectual powers knew it than we would know there is no God because God wouldnt create us for no reason.

He put us on earth to test our faith in him.

Incase anyone is thinking that if God is all-knowing than he must already know how our lives are going to end up - NO God does not know what choices we will make with our free will he only knows what will be the outcome of a choice we make. Hell is not what everyone thinks. Read the book of Revelations in the bible it says that all the things,beings,whatever whose names werent written in the book of life (Like death,stuff,etc) will be cast into the second death were they will be wiped out of existence. Then theres purgatory where people are purged of there sins and made clean so they can enter heaven. Nows this brings us to the conclusion that we cannot do those things that we were purged of in heaven - NO we can do all those things just as long as it isnt hurting anybody or pissing of God. My idea of the afterlife is that its simply what you want it or believe it to be. But remember there is nothing that you can do in this world or the other that God cannot forgive. The apocalypse is very near. Im not going to explain the whole thing so you can just read the book of revelations in the bible or better yet read the whole bible. The apocalypse is where the freemasons come in. They are the beast they will try to fool people into thinking that they will bring peace but I really dont feel like going on about this, but one last thing: read this site http://www.av1611.org/666.html

If you count atheism/agnosticism as a religion, then evolutionism is the best PROOF&gt;

quote:Originally posted by Osiris89:

If you count atheism/agnosticism as a religion, then evolutionism is the best PROOF&gt;

Elaborate, I'm curious as to where you're going on this.

quote:Originally posted by Osiris89:

If you count atheism/agnosticism as a religion, then evolutionism is the best PROOF&gt;

I don't see how atheism or agnosticism could be considered religions when they have no practices, rituals, etc.

And evolution is not proof, it is a scientific theory. Yes, there is evidence of evolution - probably more solid evidence than the existence of God. However, just as there will never be solid proof of Him, there will never be that of evolution.

Even if there was, I don't think too many theists would accept it. Just as I tend not to accept their proof.





[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 08-23-2005).]