I am sometimes wondering when I find places on the internet where people are talking about "worshipping the old Gods", paganism, Norse religion, Asatru, and other of the same.

All this is very, very fascinating stuff. It's a part of the spiritual history of humanity, often more particularly of the west or of Europe, but I wonder if those people really take all this seriously and actually worship these deities ? Do they think they are real or do they worship things in their own minds - or are they just playing around ?

What are your ideas about this ?

I know only five individuals who are "pagans". A group of five doesn't tell much about all pagans in the west, but It's still better than nothing...

1 of them is trying to look cool.

3 are "critisizing"(or rather trying to make it sound silly) Christianity.

The rest are New Age hippies that "believe" in these deities, but in a symbolic level.

If Norse mythology was real the gods would be pretty damn pissed at us.

All I know...

Tuesday - Tyr, God of War

Wednesday - Woden/Odin, God of the World

Thursday - Thor, God of Lightning

Friday - Frigga, a goddess

quote:Originally posted by Osiris89:

All I know...

Tuesday - Tyr, God of War

Wednesday - Woden/Odin, God of the World

Thursday - Thor, God of Lightning

Friday - Frigga, a goddess

And you can complete the week with Saturn, Sun and Moon. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Todesgehen:

If Norse mythology was real the gods would be pretty damn pissed at us.

Do you believe it's not real ? In other words, imagination ? Folk tales ?

quote:Originally posted by Todesgehen:

If Norse mythology was real the gods would be pretty damn pissed at us.

Why do you say that?

What I always liked about the Aesir (Norse equivalent of a Pantheon) was that unlike the vindictive Greek gods, they were friends to man. They even helped man at Ragnarok against the Giants, Fenris, Midgard Serpant, Hel, etc.

Furthermore, I liked the idea that the Nordic Gods actually were mortal, they only maintained their youth by eating golden apples.

These were warrior gods worshipped by a warfaring group of people. It seems to me they would love the U.S. not be angry with us. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 08-22-2005).]

You have as much reason to believe in a pagan God as you do to believe in the christian God.

Yeah, except pagan/norse gods are way cooler with the whole mythical creatures and STORIES that arent boring.

Most modern religions stole from extremely old shamanic religions, idea's like heaven and hell, fuck, christianity is basically Mithraism, an old Persian religion.

"Mithra, the savior of the Mithraic religion and a god who took human form, was born of a virgin; he belonged to the holy trinity and was a link between heaven and Earth; and he ascended into heaven after his death. His followers believed in heaven and hell, looked forward to a day of judgment, and referred to Mithra as "the Light of the World." They also practiced baptism (for purification purposes) and ritual cannibalism—the eating of bread and the drinking of wine to symbolize the eating and drinking of the god’s body and blood. Given all this, Mithra’s birthday should come as no surprise: December 25th; this event was, of course, celebrated by Mithra’s followers at midnight."

If you are going to believe in fictional deities at least believe in ones that fought giants and got there hands bitten off etc.

quote:Originally posted by -Mephisto-:



If you are going to believe in fictional deities at least believe in ones that fought giants and got there hands bitten off etc.

Haha yeah! Good old Tyr...

One of my personal favorites is when the Norse Gods liked to throw things at their fellow God Balder. Loki tricked the blind god Hod into throwing a dart made of mistletoe (the only thing Balder was vulnerable to) at him, thus killing him.

I just find it humerous that a God was killed because they liked to throw shit at each other.

What's the difference from believing in Odin or Zeus rather than the Judeo-Christian God?

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

What's the difference from believing in Odin or Zeus rather than the Judeo-Christian God?

Well to me there's no difference...

But to a believer there are countless differences.

I'll bet a Christian would accept Evolution before they considered everything came from a giant cow. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 08-22-2005).]

I don't want to believe in Odin, I have no choice.

Believe me. I even tried to be a Jew, but I can't do it with that son of a bitch screaming in my ear every second of every day.

I dislike Odin. He brings out the asshole in me.



[This message has been edited by The_Rabbi (edited 08-22-2005).]

Also, you can't just call Thor "God of Lightning," or Odin "King of the Gods." The Norse Gods just don't work like that. These aren't Greek or Roman cocksuckers we're talking about here. These are real spiritual entities that like to get involved in people's lives and fuck shit up.

They don't confine themselves to just one natural phenomenon so that we can look back and say that all the pieces fit nicely to form a picture of a simpler people trying to explain their world. No God does.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

These aren't Greek or Roman cocksuckers we're talking about here. These are real spiritual entities that like to get involved in people's lives and fuck shit up.

The Nordic Gods were considered friends to the human race by those that worshipped them. The Greco-Roman Gods were feared by all - And worshipped because they intimidated the weak.

Examples:

-Hera caused Echo to only speak the words of others.

-Poseidon caused Odysseus to sail offtrack.

-Athena turning Arachne into a spider.

However, the Aegir considered man an ally against the giants, Loki, Hel, Midgard Serpant, Fenris, etc. at Ragnarok.

Fallen warriors were even said to dwell in Valhalla alongside Odin, where they would march from when Ragnarok took place.

I guess man was friend to the Aegir, because the Norse gods were capable of dying. They needed all the help they could get against their foes. The Olympians were immortal and never had to worry about an uprising.

quote:Originally posted by Goat Saint:

The Greco-Roman Gods were feared by all - And worshipped because they intimidated the weak.

Examples:

-Hera caused Echo to only speak the words of others.

-Poseidon caused Odysseus to sail offtrack.

-Athena turning Arachne into a spider.



That's really quite one-sided. The greek pantheon was basically a powerful version of mortal qualities. The gods were vengeful and nasty but they were also protective and generous. Also, they had sex with mortals all of the time, so the people could feel even related to them.

The diversity of the greek pantheon allowed mortals to have no fear of the gods. Even if a god was angry with you, you could count on another for protection.

With reference to the Greek/Roman Gods, the Greeks did indeed FEAR the spitefulness and anger of the Gods.

The Romans however, were totally different. Considering that they came along a good 300 years after the decline of the Greeks, a lot had changed. Most of Roman society only used the Gods to get what they want - If a person wanted to curse another they would make an offering to the Gods and inscribe the curse on a tablet and hope it came true.

Only the uneducated, usually poorer classes feared the Gods. For example when Caesar was about to go into battle (Not sure where, perhaps Gaul), an Eagle flew across the army's path from the left. According to ancient bird lore, this was an ill omen from the Gods. The rank and file refused to fight that day, and Caesar lost the element of surprise.

This has not much relevance to the thread. Just wanted to share.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Also, they had sex with mortals all of the time, so the people could feel even related to them.

True, but most of the time it was a god seduced, tricked, forced, whatever a mortal to have sex.

Zeus is a prime example. He took the form of one soldier's (I forget his name) in order to seduce his wife. There are plenty other instances of something to this extent occuring.

Yes, I suppose I showed a few instances where the Greek gods were vengeful, without offering similar occurances with the Norse gods. Truth is I found none, which only furthered my belief that they were friends to man.

Not to say that the Greek gods were ALWAYS vindictive.

quote:Originally posted by Twiggy:

Only the uneducated, usually poorer classes feared the Gods. For example when Caesar was about to go into battle (Not sure where, perhaps Gaul), an Eagle flew across the army's path from the left. According to ancient bird lore, this was an ill omen from the Gods. The rank and file refused to fight that day, and Caesar lost the element of surprise.

This has not much relevance to the thread. Just wanted to share.

You're right, it's not relevant. I still enjoyed learning it, though.

quote:Originally posted by Goat Saint:

The Nordic Gods were considered friends to the human race by those that worshipped them.



Not always the case. Odin's not a nice guy. He inspires rage, hatred, and violence. This can be to your advantage, but can also be disastrous. Egil Skallagrimsson didn't like Odin too much when he took his son, and I don't like him all the much, either.

I don't know too much about the other Gods, they leave me alone. But Odin's a different matter. He's given me a lot, but he's taken plenty, too. Sometimes I'd prefer that he fuck off, but other times I'm thankful of the gangr. Basically, the Norse Gods are like humans. They aren't one sided, they're capable of both great good and incredible evil.

http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/

lots of stuff on paganism..

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

I am sometimes wondering when I find places on the internet where people are talking about "worshipping the old Gods", paganism, Norse religion, Asatru, and other of the same.

All this is very, very fascinating stuff. It's a part of the spiritual history of humanity, often more particularly of the west or of Europe, but I wonder if those people really take all this seriously and actually worship these deities ? Do they think they are real or do they worship things in their own minds - or are they just playing around ?

What are your ideas about this ?

I think that the most of these 'followers' are just following in their mind, looking for a group to belong to. I'm pretty sure that only a small fraction are kidding around. I also believe that there are a few hardcore followers outthere, that follow their occult/pagan religions the same way it was in the past, or with minor adjustments. Among these few were Hitler, Eichmann, and other top Nazi officials who believed that the Aryan/Nordic Race was the most powerful because of their direct decendece of Aryan high priests, that made up the "Superrace".

quote:Originally posted by -Mephisto-:

christianity is basically Mithraism, an old Persian religion.

Haha... I sort of was a Mithraic follower for a while... But Mithra comes from an older religion, the ancient Persian religion of Zoroastrianism (sp?), with it's chief (later only) god, Azu Manda, which, I believe, means "Wise One".

EDIT: Cannibalism is NOT a ritual of Mithraists, the Early Church said that of Mithraism to discredit it, they even went so far as to say that Satan started Mithraism because of all of the similarities. If it weren't for the miraculous rise of Christianity, Mithraism would be the chief religion, because of it's immense popularity in the Roman world. There are ancient Mithraeums (Mithraic Churches) found everywhere from Britain, to Persia, to Japan. If you want to know anything about Mithraism, ask me.

[This message has been edited by Encrypted Soldier (edited 08-23-2005).]

I know no one offline, but many online who follow it. As far as I can tell, they're genuine. Some worship the gods as real entities, some as metaphors for our traits, it depends on the individual.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Not always the case. Odin's not a nice guy. He inspires rage, hatred, and violence. This can be to your advantage, but can also be disastrous. Egil Skallagrimsson didn't like Odin too much when he took his son, and I don't like him all the much, either.

I don't know too much about the other Gods, they leave me alone. But Odin's a different matter. He's given me a lot, but he's taken plenty, too. Sometimes I'd prefer that he fuck off, but other times I'm thankful of the gangr. Basically, the Norse Gods are like humans. They aren't one sided, they're capable of both great good and incredible evil.

Ok, I'll agree with that.

Both the Greco-Roman along with the Norse gods had their tempers. Everybody goes through those periods.

Hell, even the Christian God was once, vengeful, right?

I'm descended from the Nords...I personally value the stories of Thor, Tyr, and Njord for the most part. I'm not sure if my belief in the norse gods is just metaphorical or literal...I suppose it's a bit of both; I do believe they existed atleast as men; probably great warriors and priestesses that grew to legendary stature through battle...maybe actual gods though.

All I know for certain about the Nords is that the Berzerkergang is the real shit. The effects of that started when I was 12...I almost killed my brother and a friend of mine in a friendly 'fight' on my trampoline. I blacked out for a minute or two and just went nuts. The second time it happened, I figured out what triggered it.

I'm normally an above-average fighter now days, but if my trigger is around (blood is the primary trigger, but moonlit blood really fucking does it) I can take out just about anyone. I've yet to come even close to losing a fight after blood's drawn.

I avoid fighting for that very reason. I don't like going berserk, it only gets me in trouble.

She was also thought to be the most desirable of all goddesses, owner of the attractive piece of jewellery Brosingamen (Brísingamen), which she bought from four dwarfs (Dvalin, Alfrik, Berling, and Grer). She had to sleep with each of the four dwarves in order to receive it. This necklace is sometimes seen today as embodying her power over the material world; the necklace has been the emblem of the earth-goddess since the earliest times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freya

That>any sex in xian religions. I though you have to kill a whole bunch of people in battle or something to go to vahalla?

You've got to die in battle honorably, far as I know.

I don't fight without good reason and without knowing I can win, so I probably won't go to Valhalla. I don't think it's real, anyway.

Norse Gods are more akin to angels and demons, in the Christian viewpoint. There's the big guy, the "God," which might not be a persona at all, and then there's everything else. The God phenomenon doesn't seem to be too interested in getting involved in human's lives, but no so for the Gods. This also applies to other culture's dieties, as well.

It all gets very complicated, but someday I might write out an essay explaining it all.

oh yes, people still take the old gods seriously. I myself used to worship the ancient egyptian gods and practiced a very oblique form of necromancy.

of course, then I realized that the 'special feeling the gods gave me' was the gut reaction to the stupid shit I was doing, and stopped looking through the smoke and mirrors and started to live my fucking life, and I've never gone back. religion has nothing on reality.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

You've got to die in battle honorably, far as I know.



I'd hardly consider myself an expert, but I got the impression that that was the guaranteed in, but you can be chosen just 'cause Odin likes ya.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

I'd hardly consider myself an expert, but I got the impression that that was the guaranteed in, but you can be chosen just 'cause Odin likes ya.

It's happened. Also of interest, you can die in battle honorably and NOT go to Valhalla as well. The Valkyries only take about half of the candidates to Valhalla, or so the story goes. The other half go to Hel, I believe.

I don't buy it, personally. It's entirely conceivable that such a place could exist in the afterlife, though, created by the psyches of all the Nordics who believed in it.

There's an alternate hall where Freya lives. The other half of the honorable dead go there.

^ Yes, he's correct, my mistake.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

There's an alternate hall where Freya lives. The other half of the honorable dead go there.

Hey, havn't seen you around lately.

Is Freya's hall different from Valhalla?

I'd assume so, if only in locale.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

I'd assume so, if only in locale.

I meant more along the lines of entry requirements, I know it has another name I can't think of, and if daily life is the same (get up, kill all your friends, respawn, giant beer-b-que).

Well, just thinking of the differences in their personalities, I'd also assume the Freya would have different things in mind than Odin would.

The more I think about it, the more I am suspicious of Valhalla. From my experiences with Odin, he's more concerned with inspring rage than training warriors.

I think that the ruling classes have in the past used his mythos to play into their hands and goals. I'm not entirely certain, but I think that only a berserker could understand what Odin's really about. Anybody that thinks he's a noble, valiant "King of the Gods" obviously has never interacted with the entity.

You have a point, but aren't the warriors in Valhalla supposed to be the army for Ragnarok? Odin only takes them when he wants, if they've allready learned all they can or need to or something, then an semi-eternity of keeping their edge until needed is plausable.

I'm no literalist, just playing devils advocate. Plus the whole idea beats the hell out of most religions "Everyone hit the hash pipe and be content" afterlife.

The "berserkergang" mentioned here has its equivalent in the Malay "running amok"/amuk".

It would be wrong to think it is particular to the Norse mythology and psyche.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

The "berserkergang" mentioned here has its equivalent in the Malay "running amok"/amuk".

It would be wrong to think it is particular to the Norse mythology and psyche.

Indeed. I don't think anybody is claiming that. I'm not, at least.

It's physiological, also. I refer to Odin because that's who's giving me shit. I'm sure if I were Malaysian, their God(or whatever the fuck) would be up my ass. I'm Danish, so that's who's interested in me.