american catholicism is absolutely hilarious to me because so many americans claim to be catholic and yet know very little of the extremely litigious and extensive set of rules by which this faith operates. in particular, i find it amusing how american catholics think they can selectively choose which tenements of the church's teachings apply to their lives and which ones are safe to ignore. birth control, abortion, gay rights, euthanasia, whatever. our lawsuit happy society wants to argue it's way out every inconvenience. well, to all those would-be catholics out there, i'd like to point out the "Papal Infallibility Doctrine" as laid out in the First Vatican Council of 1870 which states:

"The Pope enjoys infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful, he proclaims in an absolute decision a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals."

this magisterium (authority to teach religious doctrine) grants the pope the status of infallibility in regards to any view point he proclaims to be the official stance of the church. the idea behind this doctrine is that, when the pope renders an official church decree, he is guarded by the holy spirit against error. in short, the stance of the church is to be seen as coming directly from god. the pope CANNOT be wrong. the church does not "interpret" god's word, whatever the church says IS god's word. god WILL NOT allow the pope to make a mistake.

but yet we argue. "i don't think being gay is that horrible, why not let them have equal rights?" hey, guess what, if you believe that YOU'RE NOT FUCKING CATHOLIC. "i think we should allow women to be ordained as priests." you know what, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL. quite waving your self-righteous moral superiority in my face.

You say that like Italians themselves aren't the worst Catholics. And with that whole Dante thing you can pretty much just repent right before you die and be safe.

What's even funnier, is your twisting of the infallibility clause.

Also, religion in general is at an all-time low in America. It seems that pretty muc no one knows what they're doing any more when it concerns their religion/faith.

Religion being at an all-time low in America:

I blame (and applaud) The Age of Information.

We are no longer sequestered in our own culture. We have broader access to science and information and philosophy. We have taken the first feeble steps in self-enlightenment through independent means, versus being spoon-fed our beliefs our entire life. We have culturally evolved into more curious, analytical, investigative people.

Inquiring Minds Want To Know.

and they want to know the facts, not the fantasy.

Hooray! *\o/*

“Civilisation seems to work itself into a corner from which further progress is virtually impossible along the lines then apparent; yet if new ideas are to have a chance, the old systems must be so severely shaken that they lose their dominance.” - Historian, Chester Starr

Edit: Added pertinent quote

[This message has been edited by AngryFemme (edited 08-30-2005).]

How many people in the world are truely capable of expanding their minds, let alone actually wanting to expand their minds?

If you think science is taking the place of religion, then you're very much delusional. The only thing taking religion's place in American society is pop culture. Instead of serving God like the 1850's, people are now serving popular culture. Materialism is what is on people's minds right now, not science.

It also isn't like now is the only time that those familiar with science have openly questioned the existence of god and/or religion. Even in the time of the Greeks the intellectuals(most of them at least) didn't believe in the gods, so intellectuals today questioning God and religion is nothing new.

Also, what percentage of the American population do you think these intellectuals compose? More than the materialists?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

How many people in the world are truely capable of expanding their minds, let alone actually wanting to expand their minds?

If you think science is taking the place of religion, then you're very much delusional. The only thing taking religion's place in American society is pop culture. Instead of serving God like the 1850's, people are now serving popular culture. Materialism is what is on people's minds right now, not science.

It also isn't like now is the only time that those familiar with science have openly questioned the existence of god and/or religion. Even in the time of the Greeks the intellectuals(most of them at least) didn't believe in the gods, so intellectuals today questioning God and religion is nothing new.

Also, what percentage of the American population do you think these intellectuals compose? More than the materialists?



Yea thats true. pop kulture is annoying and it acomplishes nothing.

Well its not like Catholicism isnt a work slavation religion anyway. But its even more annoying when you get a guy died to give you a free ticket (you dont even have to pay for it) and you get to shit on everything he believes in.

How many people in the world are truely capable of expanding their minds, let alone actually wanting to expand their minds?

What do you mean by "expanding their minds"? You present it as if the mere thought of questioning one's faith requires some kind of consciousness alteration. A mind can only expand as far as the knowledge it takes in. If you mean "expanding the mind" as in searching for other means to analyze your own existence other than what has been dictated in scripture, then I believe:

1) Any person in the world is capable of doing it, and 2) Who wouldn't want to examine all possibilities before commiting themselves to one train of thought?

If you think science is taking the place of religion, then you're very much delusional. The only thing taking religion's place in American society is pop culture. Instead of serving God like the 1850's, people are now serving popular culture. Materialism is what is on people's minds right now, not science.

Society has reached a point where it can freely sit back (without persecution) and analyze their existence by using more methods, more knowledge, and more technology to get the most accurate picture possible. We have facts, opinions, fantasies, beliefs GALORE at our fingertips. The benefit of the Information Age is that society has for once had the opportunity to gather all this "data" and take a closer look at what they REALLY want to believe.

And you're correct. People aren't serving God like in the 1850's. You say they're serving popular culture, but what is popular culture? Popular culture is a trend. And the trend is finally turning towards science and materialism in place of the supernatural and mystical. If you can't recognize that fact, whether you agree with it or not, then you're delusional.

You are also generalizing. I never said science was taking the place of religion. I believe religion is necessary for those who do not have the gumption to question their own existence and who are perfectly happy living their life based on fantasies and myths. I am not a hater. To each his own.

It also isn't like now is the only time that those familiar with science have openly questioned the existence of god and/or religion. Even in the time of the Greeks the intellectuals(most of them at least) didn't believe in the gods, so intellectuals today questioning God and religion is nothing new.

Yes, but in the time of the Greeks, the intellectuals were minimalized to just the elite upperclass. Most of the general population couldn't even read, much less have the advantage of owning books. Books were a luxury back then, as was an education. The average citizen in ancient times did not have NEAR the tools handy to them as the average citizen does these days. It's not a new concept, those questioning god and religion. It's just becoming more widespread among the average citizens because of the ACCESS OF INFORMATION.

Also, what percentage of the American population do you think these intellectuals compose? More than the materialists?

Doesn't matter. Rome wasn't built in a day, nor will humanity evolve new cultural standards for thinking in a day. But the numbers are increasing. You nailed it with: No one knows what they're doing anymore with their religion/faith. That's right! They're confused! Suddenly, with all the information at hand that has built up from days gone by and is suddenly at their disposal - why, they don't know what to think! S'why they're turning to science. It just more sensible.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

What do you mean by "expanding their minds"? You present it as if the mere thought of questioning one's faith requires some kind of consciousness alteration. A mind can only expand as far as the knowledge it takes in. If you mean "expanding the mind" as in searching for other means to analyze your own existence other than what has been dictated in scripture, then I believe:

1) Any person in the world is capable of doing it, and 2) Who wouldn't want to examine all possibilities before commiting themselves to one train of thought?

I mean how many people are intellectually capable of examining their faith? I think you underestimate the amount of ignorance(not stupidity) in the world.

quote:Society has reached a point where it can freely sit back (without persecution) and analyze their existence by using more methods, more knowledge, and more technology to get the most accurate picture possible. We have facts, opinions, fantasies, beliefs GALORE at our fingertips. The benefit of the Information Age is that society has for once had the opportunity to gather all this "data" and take a closer look at what they REALLY want to believe.

And you're correct. People aren't serving God like in the 1850's. You say they're serving popular culture, but what is popular culture? Popular culture is a trend. And the trend is finally turning towards science and materialism in place of the supernatural and mystical. If you can't recognize that fact, whether you agree with it or not, then you're delusional.

Society is not turning towards science. It's turning JUST towards materialism. Materialism is replacing religion AND science. Do you think people care about modern scientific questions? I'd bet that 75% of Americans couldn't even name current issues in science, let alone discuss them.

You don't honestly believe that an age of science is ushering in though?

quote:Yes, but in the time of the Greeks, the intellectuals were minimalized to just the elite upperclass. Most of the general population couldn't even read, much less have the advantage of owning books. Books were a luxury back then, as was an education. The average citizen in ancient times did not have NEAR the tools handy to them as the average citizen does these days. It's not a new concept, those questioning god and religion. It's just becoming more widespread among the average citizens because of the ACCESS OF INFORMATION.

Access doesn't equate to use. How many Americans use this new access to information? A very small amount. The most important technology to most Americans is the cell phone. Their idea of spreading information is downloading music/movies/tv.

quote:Doesn't matter. Rome wasn't built in a day, nor will humanity evolve new cultural standards for thinking in a day. But the numbers are increasing. You nailed it with: No one knows what they're doing anymore with their religion/faith. That's right! They're confused! Suddenly, with all the information at hand that has built up from days gone by and is suddenly at their disposal - why, they don't know what to think! S'why they're turning to science. It just more sensible.

Now I definitely know you're delusional. Very few people in American society are turning towards science for answers, if there even looking for answers. There more concerned about the OC or American Idol than science/religion.

Is there anything you can show that says Americans are turning towards science? American knowledge in the sciences have decreased in the last few decades if anything.

What we need is a rebirth of Rationalism. That's where it's at. Use science to understand God's creations.

Fuck Calvinism.

I mean how many people are intellectually capable of examining their faith? I think you underestimate the amount of ignorance(not stupidity) in the world.

What does it take to examine your faith? I don’t think it would take an intellectual genius to question something they’ve been taught their entire life, given the assumption that they’ve never taken the time to “look into it” before. I will agree with you that more people than not are intellectually LAZY, but I don’t believe they are intellectually IGNORANT. I may underestimate their ignorance, but I do not underestimate their actual interest in questioning their existence.

I think you may be underestimating the level of some people’s audacity. Take into account also that even if a person questioned their faith inside their head without vocalizing it (due to fear of being labeled a heretic), they could still be having those thoughts. In all fairness to both your point of view and mine, it is apparent that something like that could not even be measured accurately. You seem to think that people aren’t informed enough to take that kind of leap. I seem to think they are.

Society is not turning towards science. It's turning JUST towards materialism. Materialism is replacing religion AND science. Do you think people care about modern scientific questions? I'd bet that 75% of Americans couldn't even name current issues in science, let alone discuss them.

You don't honestly believe that an age of science is ushering in though?

Okay, I’ve recognized a small misunderstanding here. You are speaking of materialism as defined here:

The theory or attitude that physical well-being and worldly possessions constitute the greatest good and highest value in life.

I am speaking of materialism as is opposed to dualism, as defined here:

The theory that physical matter is the only reality and that everything, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of matter and physical phenomena.

And okay, you called me out. I don’t honestly believe that an age of science is ushering in. But I do believe that people are now, more than ever before in civilization , questioning their faith. Will science be the crux they fall back on? I can only hope. More than likely, they will replace their old-fashioned religions with New-Age bullshit like Scientology and various strains of mysticism.

Access doesn't equate to use. How many Americans use this new access to information? A very small amount. The most important technology to most Americans is the cell phone. Their idea of spreading information is downloading music/movies/tv.

How are you able to ascertain that only a very small amount are using this new access of information? Just curious. We’re not ALL completely eaten alive with our obsessions for worldy possessions. I could point out that several young people here on totse (as an example) have more intellectual thought to offer the MyGod or Humanities forum than they do in Spurious, etc. I’d name names, but I don’t think that’s necessary.

I still firmly believe that BECAUSE OF THE INFORMATION AGE, teenagers are more intellectually savvy than they were when I was a teenager. As a teen, I would be the epitome of what you described, concerned with little more than my Atari, my Vans and my concert tickets.

Now I definitely know you're delusional. Very few people in American society are turning towards science for answers, if there even looking for answers. There more concerned about the OC or American Idol than science/religion.

Is there anything you can show that says Americans are turning towards science? American knowledge in the sciences have decreased in the last few decades if anything.

I have nothing to “show” except for my own observations, and the “trend” YOU ORIGINALLY POINTED OUT that people seem, in this age, “to not know what to think anymore concerning their religion/faith”.

What are your sources?

You think people are questioning their faith, which is very presumptious. It's much more likely that they are abandoning their faith.

All the trends suggest that people are abandoning their faith, NOT questioning it. Lower church attendence, lower baptisms, pretty much everything that coincides with people not caring about religion/faith.

Just answer this though, what is there to suggest that Americans are becoming more aware of their faith and are questioning their faith? I've pointed out the lower church attendence rates and how people care more about pop culture than religion, so what observations do you have? I'm also not talking about a few people, I'm talking about nationwide, so none of this "a few people in Spurious" stuff.

My commute home from work was great, thanks for asking!

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

It is just as presumptious on your part to think that people are abandoning their faiths and not AT ALL questioning it.

What would trigger someone to abandon their faith? They would question it first, in some shape or form. They would think about it. They would question their own decision and how it might affect them. I just can't imagine how someone would stop their faith cold-turkey without having at least a minimal amount of inner dialogue with themselves. This inner dialogue is the questioning part that comes before the actual act of abandonment. All the trends you pointed out about lower church attendance, lower baptisms, etc - how can you be so sure of what is going on in their heads as they desert all these things? How can you be so sure they have not turned the thought over in their head time and again, struggling with "doing what's right"? This is the questioning that I speak of. And this is the trend we are talking about.

I am sure it is a personal, intimate thing they do in private, "in their own heads". So I can't provide a statistical graph, or a gallup poll count, or any other statistical data to back up what my presumption is. The subject is not even worthy of a statistical poll count. It's just human nature to mull over our thoughts and question even our OWN judgement on why we come to make certain decisions in our lives. I am not arguing that people aren't abandoning their faiths. I am arguing that what PRECEDES the act of abandonment could be very well construed as an inner "questioning", a re-evaluation of their own judgements. People who suddenly abandon their faith after years of practice most certainly feel a tinge of guilt and shame at having "dropped out". I can personally attest to that. Evaluating their feelings of guilt and shame can be defined as questioning their faith, which in turn can be defined as becoming more aware of their faith (or lack thereof).

So if I'm being presumptious about believing that their abandonment is triggered by questioning/reappraising/becoming more aware of their faith, then you are being presumptious as well to think that they are just throwing it all away so they can have more room to enjoy their material possessions, television, and pop culture ... all without giving a thought (or two or three or four) to WHY they're doing it.

Those are my observations. And pardon me for using totse people as an example. It might have been a poor one, but I felt it was something we could immediately relate to where the younger generation is concerned, being as how it is TEEMING with minors. And I feel confident in stating: Nationwide, people are becoming more aware of their faith, which was initially triggered by questioning their faith, which may (or may not) result in them abandoning their faith.

Again, I'd like to point out that I was replying to YOUR observation at the beginning of this thread where YOU pointed out the trend (that I agreed with):

quote: Also, religion in general is at an all-time low in America. It seems that pretty muc no one knows what they're doing any more when it concerns their religion/faith.

Past popes have had questionable activities. Like butt fucking each other. There are better churches out there. Case and point. I was helping at vacation bible school. It's a summer activity that brings a lot of kids to the church for a God centered sunday school with all sorts of fun activites. One of the ladies there was Catholic and told me they never do anything like that in their church.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

What's even funnier, is your twisting of the infallibility clause.

Really? I think she pretty much has it nailed down. No pun intended.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

I think she pretty much has it nailed down. No pun intended.

Ahahaha, that was still a great pun.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

What would trigger someone to abandon their faith? They would question it first, in some shape or form. They would think about it. They would question their own decision and how it might affect them. I just can't imagine how someone would stop their faith cold-turkey without having at least a minimal amount of inner dialogue with themselves. This inner dialogue is the questioning part that comes before the actual act of abandonment. All the trends you pointed out about lower church attendance, lower baptisms, etc - how can you be so sure of what is going on in their heads as they desert all these things? How can you be so sure they have not turned the thought over in their head time and again, struggling with "doing what's right"? This is the questioning that I speak of. And this is the trend we are talking about.

You greatly underestimate American apathy. There is nothing to say they're questioning anything at all though. If there is, I'd love to read it. The only fact is that more Americans are abandoning their faith. What observations lead you to conclude that they are questioning that decision first?

quote:It's just human nature to mull over our thoughts and question even our OWN judgement on why we come to make certain decisions in our lives.

You're giving too much credit to the average American intellect I am not arguing that people aren't abandoning their faiths.

quote:I am arguing that what PRECEDES the act of abandonment could be very well construed as an inner "questioning", a re-evaluation of their own judgements. People who suddenly abandon their faith after years of practice most certainly feel a tinge of guilt and shame at having "dropped out". I can personally attest to that. Evaluating their feelings of guilt and shame can be defined as questioning their faith, which in turn can be defined as becoming more aware of their faith (or lack thereof).

Well I know catholics, muslims, and a few Jews that have simply stopped being religious, no questions asked. They simply stopped living a religious lifestyle when they got to high school. It would be nice to assume that these people would have a tinge of guilt, but the culture simply doesn't suggest that they do. Culture suggests that Americans today are impulsive, which is far from being a gross generalization. I think most people in the world are impulsive, and when you combine impulsiveness with apathy, you do not get a pondering person.

quote:So if I'm being presumptious about believing that their abandonment is triggered by questioning/reappraising/becoming more aware of their faith, then you are being presumptious as well to think that they are just throwing it all away so they can have more room to enjoy their material possessions, television, and pop culture ... all without giving a thought (or two or three or four) to WHY they're doing it.

Do you think the average person wants to answer the 'why?'? No! They want what pleases them. This has been proven time and time again. If something is easy and feels good, people will not think much about doing it. Do you think much when getting a massage, or doing something you enjoy? I know I don't. Why ruin pleasure(materialistic possessions) with thinking? That is the mindset of the average American.

Also, religion in general is at an all-time low in America. It seems that pretty muc no one knows what they're doing any more when it concerns their religion/faith. [/b] [/QUOTE]

This can be attributed to apathy though and not a deep pondering of faith.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Really? I think she pretty much has it nailed down. No pun intended.

quote:the pope CANNOT be wrong. the church does not "interpret" god's word, whatever the church says IS god's word. god WILL NOT allow the pope to make a mistake

Oh yeah, how could I overlook how correct she was. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Silly me!

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Oh yeah, how could I overlook how correct she was. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Silly me!

Yes. Silly you. Silly you for thinking I would not notice how you took that out of context. Silly your for thinking that would be an appropriate response.

She said:

"this magisterium (authority to teach religious doctrine) grants the pope the status of infallibility in regards to any view point he proclaims to be the official stance of the church. the idea behind this doctrine is that, when the pope renders an official church decree, he is guarded by the holy spirit against error. in short, the stance of the church is to be seen as coming directly from god. the pope CANNOT be wrong. the church does not "interpret" god's word, whatever the church says IS god's word. god WILL NOT allow the pope to make a mistake."

That clearly shows how "the pope cannot be wrong" and is in the context of official church decree, which is entirely correct.

Yes. Silly you.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 08-31-2005).]

That doesn't explain why she said that God will not allow the pope to make a mistake, when that clearly isn't true.

It also doesn't make this: "the church does not "interpret" god's word, whatever the church says IS god's word" any less wrong.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

That doesn't explain why she said that God will not allow the pope to make a mistake, when that clearly isn't true.



If the pope is infallible when it comes to church mandate, then he cannot make a mistake when it comes to church mandate (by the definition of "infallible"). Now, how does god not allow him to do so? By granting him the infallibility in the first place.

The "evidence" for the papal infallibility, if you didn't know, is taken from the bible. Thus, to the Catholic Church, god is who is granting the pope this infallibility, and thus god doesn't allow the pope to make a mistake in church mandate (remember the context).

quote:

It also doesn't make this: "the church does not "interpret" god's word, whatever the church says IS god's word" any less wrong.



Wrong again. If the pope's decree, pertaining to church mandate, deals with interpretation of the bible (which they often do) then what they say the bible says is the word of god, and ceases to be up to the interpretation of each person, unless otherwise stated.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

This can be attributed to apathy though and not a deep pondering of faith.

As in the case of your high-school religious dropouts who simply quit their religion - it still required a conscious decision on their part to NOT partake in their belief system any longer.

You are making it necessary for a conscious decision, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant, to require a great deal of intellectual strain - something you say that the average american simply isn't up to.

Copping a sense of awareness when you decide to abruptly end your religious lifestyle takes more self-questioning and decision-making than you are willing to give creedence to. Why would a person have to be of above-average intellect to experience this?

Apathy is a lack of emotion, not a lack of the ability to ponder your own thoughts. Intellect is the ability to think abstractly or profoundly. Is intellect required in this case? No. Is apathy even applicable? No.

quote:There is nothing to say they're questioning anything at all though. If there is, I'd love to read it.

And there is nothing to say that they absolutely ARE NOT questioning anything at all.

They may have lack of EMOTION about why they are abandoning their religions, but they are not having lack of AWARENESS as to why they feel it is no longer necessary.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Wrong again. If the pope's decree, pertaining to church mandate, deals with interpretation of the bible (which they often do) then what they say the bible says is the word of god, and ceases to be up to the interpretation of each person, unless otherwise stated.

Then they're interpreting, which would be the opposite of what the original poster said they do. She said the Church does not interpret God's word. You don't honestly agree with that, do you?

quote:If the pope is infallible when it comes to church mandate, then he cannot make a mistake when it comes to church mandate (by the definition of "infallible"). Now, how does god not allow him to do so? By granting him the infallibility in the first place.

The "evidence" for the papal infallibility, if you didn't know, is taken from the bible. Thus, to the Catholic Church, god is who is granting the pope this infallibility, and thus god doesn't allow the pope to make a mistake in church mandate (remember the context).

Was the word "mandate" in the sentence I quoted? I don't think it was. If she meant mandate, she would have said mandate.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

As in the case of your high-school religious dropouts who simply quit their religion - it still required a conscious decision on their part to NOT partake in their belief system any longer.

A conscious decision does not equate to questioning, which is what you're saying they're doing. A conscious decision can be made in a few moments, questioning cannot.

quote:You are making it necessary for a conscious decision, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant, to require a great deal of intellectual strain - something you say that the average american simply isn't up to.

I'm not saying that, you are. You're saying that every decision involving something serious like religion involves a lot of thought and pondering, something I think is false, as evidenced by society.

quote:Copping a sense of awareness when you decide to abruptly end your religious lifestyle takes more self-questioning and decision-making than you are willing to give creedence to. Why would a person have to be of above-average intellect to experience this?

Why does it have to require questioning? It's very easy to stop going to church or caring about God. It requires ZERO effort to stop doing something; i.e. no questioning.

quote:Apathy is a lack of emotion, not a lack of the ability to ponder your own thoughts. Intellect is the ability to think abstractly or profoundly. Is intellect required in this case? No. Is apathy even applicable? No.

I'll refresh you on the definition of apathy:

apathy: lack of interest or concern

Apathy certainly applies in this situation.

quote:And there is nothing to say that they absolutely ARE NOT questioning anything at all.

They may have lack of EMOTION about why they are abandoning their religions, but they are not having lack of AWARENESS as to why they feel it is no longer necessary.

What leads you to believe that. Can you give me your freaking observations already that tells you that the average American who abandons religion is questioning it first? That is all I want. I've provided my observations, so I'm still waiting for yours.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Then they're interpreting, which would be the opposite of what the original poster said they do. She said the Church does not interpret God's word. You don't honestly agree with that, do you?

They interpreting the word of the bible does not refute the fact that it becomes the word of god by virtue that what ever was uttered in the bible is supposedly his word. They are therefore saying (when something is interpreted to mean 'X'), 'X' was god's word. She was completely justified in using that phrase.



quote:Was the word "mandate" in the sentence I quoted? I don't think it was. If she meant mandate, she would have said mandate.

Stop graping at straws, she said "decree" before. Again, this has every thing to do with a context which you conveniently ignore in order to do away with her post as if it were meaningless (the reason why I even bothered to reply here) when she clearly had a very good grasp of what the doctrine of infallibility is.

LOU REED:

Stop giving me credit for napolean_complexes's ridiculous statements, wouldya?!

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

[BIf anyone wishes to add anything DO...[/B]

I'd like to add:

Misquoting people isn't cool.

Lay the pipe down for awhile and rethink your entire post.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Stop graping at straws, she said "decree" before. Again, this has every thing to do with a context which you conveniently ignore in order to do away with her post as if it were meaningless (the reason why I even bothered to reply here) when she clearly had a very good grasp of what the doctrine of infallibility is.

If she had a good grasp then why would she seemingly say something so stupid?

If she means what you claim she meant, then she can come out and say it, otherwise her understanding of infallibility is severely flawed.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

LOU REED:

Stop giving me credit for napolean_complexes's ridiculous statements, wouldya?!



It was actually a question...

quote: A conscious decision does not equate to questioning, which is what you're saying they're doing. A conscious decision can be made in a few moments, questioning cannot.

I never commented on the length of time the decision to abandon their religion takes people. I just asserted that conscious decision does equate to questioning. And it's done on some level when people decide to drop out of their faiths. You insist that apathy is what is driving this. You are blaming apathy's indifference and lack of concern characteristic as to what facilitates the entire process of coming to that decision.

Decision-making is a complex, recursive and incremental process. It's carrier is an intelligent entity. It is characterised by the necessity of a choice which requires a reasoning capability of the subject. It is performed through various reasoning levels. It requires both conscious and subconscious abilities to "come to a conclusion".

Reasoning and questioning are very closely intertwined here. Just because the people are able to flow into their new lifestyle so easily and without much concern points more to how they LIVE with their decision, not how they ARRIVED at their decision.

Maybe this happens in a flash for some, and yet still others wrestle with it in their heads and ponder it to great lengths. But, it still stands, a conscious decision does equate to a level of questioning.

I also disagreed with you when you said that the average person doesn't have the intellectual capability of questioning their faith. I disagreed with your claim that apathy prohibited "questioning". They may be indifferent to the road they left behind and the path they choose to follow, but they still arrived at that point by means of reasoning and questioning.

quote:Can you give me your freaking observations already that tells you that the average American who abandons religion is questioning it first?

I just did.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

If she had a good grasp then why would she seemingly say something so stupid?

If she means what you claim she meant, then she can come out and say it, otherwise her understanding of infallibility is severely flawed.

So stupid that you failed to provide a reply to what I said?

What I see is a poor choice of words at the end of her post, but a very nice description of what it entails before that; which would lead any rational human being to conclude that just that: poor choice of words.

She can clear that up herself then, because I'm pretty sure you're in no position to state what she meant for her.

If she meant what you say she meant, then I'll believe her, because it does make more sense that way. Until then, I can only go by the gross generalizations that she typed herself.

Post by n comp:

“Civilisation seems to work itself into a corner from which further progress is virtually impossible along the lines then apparent; yet if new ideas are to have a chance, the old systems must be so severely shaken that they lose their dominance.” - Historian, Chester Starr

yeah fucking right...



...itz a matter of givin a crap

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

I never commented on the length of time the decision to abandon their religion takes people. I just asserted that conscious decision does equate to questioning. And it's done on some level when people decide to drop out of their faiths. You insist that apathy is what is driving this. You are blaming apathy's indifference and lack of concern characteristic as to what facilitates the entire process of coming to that decision.

I think I've realized what your main assumption is. You think most people are like you. You think that faith and religion are important aspects of most everyone's lives, when that isn't the case, especially among young Americans. It simply doesn't register high on most people's importance scale, so they're not going to spend much time at all thinking about, or feeling guilty about abandoning their faith.

quote:Decision-making is a complex, recursive and incremental process. It's carrier is an intelligent entity. It is characterised by the necessity of a choice which requires a reasoning capability of the subject. It is performed through various reasoning levels. It requires both conscious and subconscious abilities to "come to a conclusion".

I agree. In a perfect, sane world, everyone would spend time, a lot of time, on making decisions. American society is not perfect nor is it sane. Most Americans don't reason through things, especially things as complex as religious faith.

quote:Reasoning and questioning are very closely intertwined here. Just because the people are able to flow into their new lifestyle so easily and without much concern points more to how they LIVE with their decision, not how they ARRIVED at their decision.

Maybe this happens in a flash for some, and yet still others wrestle with it in their heads and ponder it to great lengths. But, it still stands, a conscious decision does equate to a level of questioning.

No it doesn't. I could make a conscious decision in a split second. No questions asked. A conscious decision only requires one fragment of time where a person decides whether they will or won't do something. I believe society shows that most Americans make such important decisions in a few seconds. Sleep in, or go to church. Watch tv, read the bible. This could be fleshed out further into people's actions(sex, drugs, drinking, and violence are all examples where faith and religion can be cast aside in a split second). You take all these small split second decisions and you add them up. Once you do that, you ahve someone abandoning their faith, without any serious questioning of that decision.

quote:I also disagreed with you when you said that the average person doesn't have the intellectual capability of questioning their faith. I disagreed with your claim that apathy prohibited "questioning". They may be indifferent to the road they left behind and the path they choose to follow, but they still arrived at that point by means of reasoning and questioning.

I never said it prohibited questioning, I simply believe it's the secondary reason that people are abandoning their faith. If people don't care about religion, then they likely aren't going to spend much time thinking about it. Makes sense, no?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

She can clear that up herself then, because I'm pretty sure you're in no position to state what she meant for her.

If she meant what you say she meant, then I'll believe her, because it does make more sense that way. Until then, I can only go by the gross generalizations that she typed herself.

Quit being a snob.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

You think most people are like you. You think that faith and religion are important aspects of most everyone's lives, when that isn't the case, especially among young Americans.

^ And you accuse ME of suggesting that I know what everyone thinks?!

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I stated how "questioning" is done, even if it's subtle, by people who ditch their religions. You are the one who applied the label of "apathetic" on the average citizen and proposed that Americans aren't intellectual enough to question their own decisions regarding their faith.

Faith and religion is not a big part of my life, yet you insinuated that I just assume everyone is like me, in that sense. It seems as though you are the one labeling people (myself, and these other "average citizens") to just automatically fit in a category that you have placed them in - that the average american is lazy, apathetic and too distracted to give their spiritual existence one iota of thought.

People are more introspective than you are giving them credit for.

quote: If people don't care about religion, then they likely aren't going to spend much time thinking about it.

But I believe we were discussing the strain of people who once HAD religion, who was once EXPOSED to religion, who once PRACTICED religion ... who then ABANDONED their religion. They once cared. They once lived it. They come to a moment of reason in their lives where they find that it is no longer important, practical, or the pay-off just isnt worth the commitment. It is at this crossroads where there is some level of questioning going on introspectively.

We've heard it referred to as a "moment of clarity".

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

^ And you accuse ME of suggesting that I know what everyone thinks?!

I stated how "questioning" is done, even if it's subtle, by people who ditch their religions. You are the one who applied the label of "apathetic" on the average citizen and proposed that Americans aren't intellectual enough to question their own decisions regarding their faith.

And I gave evidence in support of that, so it wasn't just a gross generalization with no factual basis.

quote:Faith and religion is not a big part of my life, yet you insinuated that I just assume everyone is like me, in that sense. It seems as though you are the one labeling people (myself, and these other "average citizens") to just automatically fit in a category that you have placed them in - that the average american is lazy, apathetic and too distracted to give their spiritual existence one iota of thought.

I guess I should have been more clear. I meant that it appears that you spend a lot of time thinking about religion and faith(otherwise you wouldn't spend your free time on a religious and faith internet forum). I was simply saying that the Average American does not share your passion for this type of thinking. I also repeat, the social evidence supports that Americans are apathetic concerning their faith and religion. I'm not simply passing out labels, I'm assigning them based off valid observations.

quote:People are more introspective than you are giving them credit for.

There is nothing to support that though, NOTHING!

quote:But I believe we were discussing the strain of people who once HAD religion, who was once EXPOSED to religion, who once PRACTICED religion ... who then ABANDONED their religion. They once cared. They once lived it. They come to a moment of reason in their lives where they find that it is no longer important, practical, or the pay-off just isnt worth the commitment. It is at this crossroads where there is some level of questioning going on introspectively.

Which I responded to with this:

"No it doesn't. I could make a conscious decision in a split second. No questions asked. A conscious decision only requires one fragment of time where a person decides whether they will or won't do something. I believe society shows that most Americans make such important decisions in a few seconds. Sleep in, or go to church. Watch tv, read the bible. This could be fleshed out further into people's actions(sex, drugs, drinking, and violence are all examples where faith and religion can be cast aside in a split second). You take all these small split second decisions and you add them up. Once you do that, you ahve someone abandoning their faith, without any serious questioning of that decision."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:Quit being a snob.

Start contributing.

quote:Originally posted by napolean_complex This could be fleshed out further into people's actions(sex, drugs, drinking, and violence are all examples where faith and religion can be cast aside in a split second). You take all these small split second decisions and you add them up. Once you do that, you ahve someone abandoning their faith, without any serious questioning of that decision."

No. It does not add up to abandoning the faith. It adds up to sinning - or slacking, if you will. I'll even use your words: "casting it aside in a split second". Even the most hardened sinners will turn to God at the very last minute and reclaim their faith. This especially happens when they are facing death or serious hardship. But they never really made the conscious decision of abandoning their faith, with the intentions of finding alternative reasons for their purpose. They just ignore it until they really feel they need it, but it's still inside of them, and they call on it whenever needed.

However, all that is irrelevant to the discussion, for we aren't talking about those lazy Christians who are too hungover to go to Sunday Services. We aren't talking about the disenchanted youth who abandon their church youth group in lieu of more exciting things like sex, drugs and R&R. You blame the apathy of America for their intellectual laziness. But these aren't the faith-abandoners! You're applying your logic to the wrong group, and what's worse, you're calling them "the average citizen".

We were talking about people who were once a believer of the Good Book who convert to atheism or materialism (in place of religion and duality). We are not even discussing the same group of people. The only evidence you gave in support of people giving up religion was: "If people don't care about religion, then they likely aren't going to spend much time thinking about it. You suggest that people who COMPLETELY ABANDON RELIGION do so without a moment's thought.

For someone to come to the conclusion that atheism is preferable to Catholicism, or that being a Secular Humanist is preferable to being a Southern Baptist, or being an Agnostic as opposed to a Pentacostal ... THAT is what takes questioning, decision-making, pondering, thinking, etc.

This is pointless if you are talking about sinners and religious slackers and I'm talking about people who have ditched supernaturalism for materialism.



[This message has been edited by AngryFemme (edited 09-03-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

No. It does not add up to abandoning the faith. It adds up to sinning - or slacking, if you will. I'll even use your words: "casting it aside in a split second". Even the most hardened sinners will turn to God at the very last minute and reclaim their faith. This especially happens when they are facing death or serious hardship. But they never really made the conscious decision of abandoning their faith, with the intentions of finding alternative reasons for their purpose. They just ignore it until they really feel they need it, but it's still inside of them, and they call on it whenever needed.

Is there anything to suggest that they do that? Also, would you consider someone who does that truely faithful?

quote:However, all that is irrelevant to the discussion, for we aren't talking about those lazy Christians who are too hungover to go to Sunday Services. We aren't talking about the disenchanted youth who abandon their church youth group in lieu of more exciting things like sex, drugs and R&R. You blame the apathy of America for their intellectual laziness. But these aren't the faith-abandoners! You're applying your logic to the wrong group, and what's worse, you're calling them "the average citizen".

These people are most definitely part of the people that this discussion pertains to. This discussion applies to those that seriously ponder whether they truely believe in their faith, and those who cast aside their faith by not living it out like they're supposed to. It applies to everyone who was religious, but who is no longer faithful.

quote:We were talking about people who were once a believer of the Good Book who convert to atheism or materialism (in place of religion and duality). We are not even discussing the same group of people. The only evidence you gave in support of people giving up religion was: "If people don't care about religion, then they likely aren't going to spend much time thinking about it. You suggest that people who COMPLETELY ABANDON RELIGION do so without a moment's thought.

I've never once mentioned atheism, so you can forget that right now. I'm talking about people who simply put faith behind other things, such as materialism and a pleasure filled lifestyle. I also showed how they can think and still abandon it, but the thinking doesn't extend past a few split seconds. Stay focused please, you even responded to that post first.

quote:For someone to come to the conclusion that atheism is preferable to Catholicism, or that being a Secular Humanist is preferable to being a Southern Baptist, or being an Agnostic as opposed to a Pentacostal ... THAT is what takes questioning, decision-making, pondering, thinking, etc.

We're not talking about becoming agnostic or atheist. This is the first post that mentions them. In your other posts, you don't mention them once, so I suggest you don't try and change the discussion, otherwise this is just fruitless(moreso than it already is).

quote:This is pointless if you are talking about sinners and religious slackers and I'm talking about people who have ditched supernaturalism for materialism.

Are the sinners I mentioned also materialistic? Sex, money, and pleasure all are facets of materialism. Not going to church to sleep in is self serving, which is a materialistic "virtue". The people I described apply perfectly to materialism, which is why I'm right.

OhNoSir. That's not how it went down at all.

You said: Religion is at an all-time low in America

I said: I blame and applaud the Age of Information for people becoming more enlightened as to their purpose.

You retorted: How many people in the world are truely capable of expanding their minds, let alone actually wanting to expand their minds?

Thus, the tangent went off somewhere in the direction of "Do they question it in their minds prior to ABANDONING their religion?"

People who SLACK in their faith don't require mind-expanding. I asserted in every post thereafter that people who ABANDON their faith (which translates into agnosticism or atheism) do so with more intellectual thought than you gave them credit for. It was you who clarified later in the thread that the people you are talking about are the slackers, the sinners, the lazy christians. I spoke of materialists as opposed to dualists. One doesn't believe in a soul, the other does.

You spoke of materialists as the SOUL BELIEVERS who still typically choose physical pleasures from time to time, due to spiritual laziness and being distracted.

quote: Originally posted by napolean_complex We're not talking about becoming agnostic or atheist. This is the first post that mentions them. In your other posts, you don't mention them once, so I suggest you don't try and change the discussion, otherwise this is just fruitless(moreso than it already is).

It is clear here that I was speaking of agnostics/atheists:

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme We have broader access to science and information and philosophy. We have taken the first feeble steps in self-enlightenment through independent means, versus being spoon-fed our beliefs our entire life.

*Replacing your traditional religious beliefs with a science or philosoph-based mindset. (atheism or agnosticism)

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme And the trend is finally turning towards science and materialism in place of the supernatural and mystical.

*Wouldn't a materialistic worldview be considered atheistic?

quote: Originally posted by AngryFemme Suddenly, with all the information at hand that has built up from days gone by and is suddenly at their disposal - why, they don't know what to think! S'why they're turning to science. It just more sensible.

*Yet again, speaking of people who once held religious viewpoints and abandoned them in search for more concrete knowledge, using science as a reference. (doesn't that ultimately lead to atheism, or at the very least, agnosticism?)

quote: Originally posted by AngryFemme People who suddenly abandon their faith after years of practice most certainly feel a tinge of guilt and shame at having "dropped out". I can personally attest to that.

Again, practioners abandoning their faith, not simply breaking a few rules.

And I still maintain that more people are examining their faith (which often leads to abandoning it) than you are giving them credit for.

And you yourself posted: Well I know catholics, muslims, and a few Jews that have simply stopped being religious, no questions asked.

If asked, what would these people call themselves? Atheists or Agnostics? Seems plausible.

To kick a dying a horse... The people I described apply perfectly to atheists and agnostics. You are not right.