most athiest are dumbass highschool kids trying to be rebels. so if you dont believe in god, answer these 2 simple questions:

if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, because nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite. so whats at the end? how can it just be nothing? hint: dont give me that "it goes in a loop" shit. scientist talk thereselves in circles with that, but cant answer the question: "whats outside of this loop"?

and according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff. but what was here before the stars? before the planets? what created space? how did space get here? what would it look like without space?



the point is, something cant come from nothing. there had to be something that was always here. if gas created space and the universe, where did the gas come from, or dust or whatever. there is no answer. you want to laugh at how "uncool" religious people sound saying that god is the reason for us being here, but your the dumb ones because you cant acknowlege that there are things as humans we cant understand. we cant understand the concept of infinity.

so please, you intellegent 16 year olds, tell me the answers, and i'll quit believing in god right now. since you want to act like you know everything, answer those simple questions.

[This message has been edited by sawed_off_pump (edited 08-31-2005).]

Buddy, your logic is severely flawed and Aristotle is rolling over in his grave.

and according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff. but what was here before the stars? before the planets? what created space? how did space get here? what would it look like without space?

There can be nothing before the singularity. All mass, energy, matter and time was contained within it. There was nothing before the singularity because the singularity contained everything!

We, the dreaded atheists, can turn this right back around on you. What was there before God, how did God get here. What created this supreme entity?

the point is, something cant come from nothing. there had to be something that was always here. there is no answer. you want to laugh at how "uncool" religious people sound saying that god is the reason for us being here, but your the dumb ones because you cant acknowlege that there are things as humans we cant understand. we cant understand the concept of infinity.

Once again, if something can't come from nothing then there has to be a creator of God, unless you want to say that God always existed which tosses your whole damn argument right out the window.

Which God is the reason for us being here? Which supreme being holds the most water? Ra, Zeus...? Or are they all just meme-complexes?

This will be a fun thread when the smart people get on.

By the way, amigo, I'm 15. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



[This message has been edited by Paradise Lost (edited 08-31-2005).]

you only even attempted to answer one of my questions. you didn't even successfully do that. but on to the next one, whats at the end of the universe? and once again, dont give me that loop bullshit. if you believe that, tell me whats outside of the loop. it cant just end. but according to earths math, it cant not end, because according to 15 year old genious athiest like yourself, infinity doesnt exist.

I only answered one of your questions because I don't claim to know that much about science, wait for the people who do to get on.

Nice ad hom attack you have going there, buddy.

How did I fail, by pointing out the flaws in your argument?



EDIT: I'm going to bed, so if you post anything else I'm not avoiding your argument, I'll get back to you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by Paradise Lost (edited 08-31-2005).]

and when you ask us who created god or how long he has been here we can answer you. he's been here for ever. he is the beginning and the end, ie infinite. we as intellegent religious people can understand that there are things as people we cant understand, one of those things is god. but athiest just have abunch of bullshit, to try to discredit god.

and the people who "know about science" will give me the same bullshit you have. they dont know, but try to use big words to try to sound like they're explaining something. i've asked scientist, and what not, and they say the universe is a loop, and if you travel enough you end up in the same place. but cant answer the $100,000 question, WHATS OUTSIDE?

[This message has been edited by sawed_off_pump (edited 08-31-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

most athiest are dumbass highschool kids trying to be rebels. so if you dont believe in god, answer these 2 simple questions:

if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, because nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite. so whats at the end? how can it just be nothing? hint: dont give me that "it goes in a loop" shit. scientist talk thereselves in circles with that, but cant answer the question: "whats outside of this loop"?

It is hypothesized that the Universe will simply collapse upon itself, forming a singularity. This is not limited to matter, this includes all the dimensions as well (spacial and temporal). Even if the Universe doesn't collapse upon itself, and time continues "infinitely" it will still be finite. There is a definite beginning of the Universe. There is a definite "point in time" anywhere in the future. The distance between two points is finite, hence time is not "infinite" like you claim.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

and according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff. but what was here before the stars? before the planets? what created space? how did space get here? what would it look like without space?

A singularity was here. You would do well to read The First Three Minutes.



quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

the point is, something cant come from nothing. there had to be something that was always here. if gas created space and the universe, where did the gas come from, or dust or whatever. there is no answer. you want to laugh at how "uncool" religious people sound saying that god is the reason for us being here, but your the dumb ones because you cant acknowlege that there are things as humans we cant understand. we cant understand the concept of infinity.

Like a previous poster stated, if you establish an axiom it must be applied consistently. Speaking of creation, can you explain to me why the Bible has two contradictory creation stories? Which came first, plants/animals or man. Science can come up with a consistent answer to that question. Your Bible can't.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

so please, you intellegent 16 year olds, tell me the answers, and i'll quit believing in god right now. since you want to act like you know everything, answer those simple questions.

Any other questions you have? I'd love to save you from the plauge that is christianity.

Paradise Lost is a cool band. Check out Katatonia.

Christianity owns.

Once again, if something can't come from nothing then there has to be a creator of God, unless you want to say that God always existed which tosses your whole damn argument right out the window.

Which God is the reason for us being here? Which supreme being holds the most water? Ra, Zeus...? Or are they all just meme-complexes?

This will be a fun thread when the smart people get on.

god is here from nothing because he is supernatural. are you saying the univers is supernatural?

who said i credit my being to a particular god? i was raised a christian. i read the bible. i cant tell you that jesus is gods son. if you think about it, the question "who is gods son" is the only difference in major religions. something as complex as god, i find it somewhat hard to believe that he would have a human son put on the earth, for no obvious reason. but i was raised a christian. if anything, i would lean towards wicca, because they believe the universe is god. wich sounds more reasonable than anything else. but i wouldn't consider myself any religion. i dont know who god is, or who his son was, if he had one. but i know there is most definately a god. i dont know where i go when i die, or anything like that, for sure, but i know there is a god. but i have read some about wicca, and there not as crazy as alot of people make them out to be. they believe in karma instead of heaven and hell, and that we go to something called the summerland, where we can remember past lives, and reflect on them, and thats as much as i've read. i dont claim to have all the answers, as i dont think any human should claim to have all the answers.



sure, i invite any of the "smart people" as you called them to answer this. but for me to consider them smart, they have to admit there are things like this that a human brain cant comprehend.



[This message has been edited by sawed_off_pump (edited 08-31-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

most athiest are dumbass highschool kids trying to be rebels. so if you dont believe in god, answer these 2 simple questions:

if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, because nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite. so whats at the end? how can it just be nothing? hint: dont give me that "it goes in a loop" shit. scientist talk thereselves in circles with that, but cant answer the question: "whats outside of this loop"?



what's wrong with saying the universe goes in a cycle? a lot of nature does work in cycles, after all. and if the cycle is all-encompassing, (what paradise lost said, about the singularity of everything expanding into the universe then eventually collapsing into the singularity again), it stands to reason that there's nothing outside of that cycle

quote:

and according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff. but what was here before the stars? before the planets? what created space? how did space get here? what would it look like without space?

see above, it's pointless to ask what it would look like, because the singularity encompasses everything, it's impossible to be outside it or have light reflect off of it to see it, right?

quote:

the point is, something cant come from nothing. there had to be something that was always here. if gas created space and the universe, where did the gas come from, or dust or whatever. there is no answer. you want to laugh at how "uncool" religious people sound saying that god is the reason for us being here, but your the dumb ones because you cant acknowlege that there are things as humans we cant understand. we cant understand the concept of infinity.

very hypocritical of you to say that something can't come from nothing...but as far as i know we don't exactly how everything came to be, we can't test that scientifically, that's not a reason to assume supernatural causes, as far as i know, things have existed for infinity, or the 'singularity' existed for infinity before becoming our universe, if we think that it encompassed time as well matter and energy, it existed forever and for no time at all

[This message has been edited by crazygoatemonky (edited 08-31-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Any other questions you have? I'd love to save you from the plauge that is christianity.

you assume just because i believe in god that im a christian?

as far as the bibles explination of creation, who knows? what im talking about is far beyond earths creation and mans evolution. i know the bible was saying life came from the water, long before science did. but there are alot of flaws in the bible. once again, just because i believe in god, doesn't mean that i believe 100% that he has a son. have you ever thought that the universe is god? and that that is what is infinite? i dont know, i dont have all the answers.

and you with this singularity bs. you probably didn't think i'd know what that was. it's just a math thing, it has nothing to do with what was here before the big bang. a singularity is simply an equation. was that your attempt on explaing time? these are reasons alot of scientist believe in god. because there is simply no other explination from the facts that explain these things.

and you still havn't attempted to tell me whats outside of the universe.

there are men, who are very well educated, most likely more than any of you will ever be. who have highere IQ's than any of you, who believe in god. however some men with very high IQ's choose to be like you guys and talk thereselves in circles about things they dont understand.

im about to leave for the night, but will check on this tomorrow, since i havn't been to work in a while.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

you assume just because i believe in god that im a christian?

My mistake.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

as far as the bibles explination of creation, who knows? what im talking about is far beyond earths creation and mans evolution. i know the bible was saying life came from the water, long before science did. but there are alot of flaws in the bible. once again, just because i believe in god, doesn't mean that i believe 100% that he has a son. have you ever thought that the universe is god? and that that is what is infinite? i dont know, i dont have all the answers.

First of all, the Bible claims (in Genesis 2) that God picked up a handful of sand and turned it into man. This takes away any credibility the Bible had about humans coming out of water.

Secondly, regarding your argument contemplating pantheism, why is it relevant? I don't see how it would be of any consequence if God happened to be everything. There is no evidence whatsoever to support pantheism (although no evidence contradicting it, either) as pantheism makes only one very broad truth claim (everything is God). Again, this claim really isn't of any consequence, IMHO.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

and you with this singularity bs. you probably didn't think i'd know what that was. it's just a math thing, it has nothing to do with what was here before the big bang. a singularity is simply an equation. was that your attempt on explaing time? these are reasons alot of scientist believe in god. because there is simply no other explination from the facts that explain these things.

You obviously don't know what the big bang is. Start by reading this document. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

and you still havn't attempted to tell me whats outside of the universe.

Nothing. No matter, no energy, no space, no time, just nothing.

Does the bible (or some other holy text) provide a better explaination?

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

there are men, who are very well educated, most likely more than any of you will ever be. who have highere IQ's than any of you, who believe in god. however some men with very high IQ's choose to be like you guys and talk thereselves in circles about things they dont understand.

im about to leave for the night, but will check on this tomorrow, since i havn't been to work in a while.

"There are men, who have higher IQs than any of you, who don't believe in God. However, there are some people with very high IQs who choose to believe in God and other sorts of mythology, 'cause everyone likes a good fairy tale."

You have no evidence/examples/anything. In short, you have no argument.

[This message has been edited by jsaxton14 (edited 08-31-2005).]

This is fucking stupid. You try to use the worlds lack of knowledge and understanding to prove the existence of something. Your the one here acting like some 16 year old. The trouble with your 'argument' is that because your questions are based upon things we could'nt possibly know then we fail to answer the questions. This is where you jump in and attribute everything we don't fucking know to God.

It could be infinite. Whether it loops or whatever I dont know. However just because I don't know don't try and jump in and say ' oh well it must be god then'. Thats stupid

personaly, i believe infinity does exist, its just we cant comprehend it.

By that i mean, because as humans, we are born and die, have a begining and an end, we are unable to comprehend infinity.

but, when you think about it, we too are infinate, as a part of the universe. When we die, we go into the ground, feed the trees, trees grow, our energy moves around, feeds crops, dispurses into gasses in the air, whatever.

I'm not exactly sure how the universe is infinate, maybe it colapses back in on itself and starts anew, maybe it just does stretch on forever, but to me the idea of infinity doesnt seem to rediculous, i mean, you can trace us back, we are all made of stars, we, as matter, have been around for a long long time.

quote:Paradise Lost

We, the dreaded atheists, can turn this right back around on you. What was there before God, how did God get here. What created this supreme entity?

I got here a little late for this to go aorund poking my pennies at these questions. I suppose ill answer this one.

God, as existing between two points in time superceding our own time delta for existence (big bang or creation and now), is beyond our comprehension. As we cannot ask Him, we must then use our logic to answer this question.

A though just came to mind. To God there is no concept of time. However he says that he has always existed. Perhaps he has always existed in our our time delta, and he himself cannot say that he has existed for an infinite time? Remember that forever must have some time reference. "Forever" is an infinite limit on a time delta. If time does not exist, there is no unit of measurement for eternity. Perhaps also God does not bother to record time because his omnipotence makes its recording meaningless. Enough rambling...

Using logic we have at our disposal, we cannot conclude anything that supercedes that logic. Therefore we cannot conclude that anything existed before God and our creation, because we have no evidence from which to base such a conclusion.

Interestingly enough, since the universe obviously existed at the big bang, we can have a time delta by which to apply our logic and understanding. This answers one of the topic starters questions (in a more or les indirect way). Simply put, since we can figure out how the big bang came about, it is only a matter of time until we can figure out its mechanics...assuming however it did happen.

I am not even going to attempt to explain anything to you because you seem to retarded to understand. Read ATHEISM: The case against god, by George H Smith.

Does your theistic beliefs answer the questions that you asked? No.. I'm sorry, but you are stupid.

your using religion as an argument? Not even as an argument, but as a way to question someones life? Not even someone, but a sub-group of our culture who shares a different point of view in theology?

Just because it ends in OLOGY, doesn't make it a science where you can 'prove' people wrong. In fact, you can't prove anything. So you're saying that if I can't prove to you that there ISN'T a god, then there must be one? By a Dogma beleif? That's just as hypocritical as those who ask for proof of god. Except for you, it's excruciatingly more annoying.

Just tell them there going to hell already. What you're saying isn't deep, isn't relevant, and after reading your spiritual-moronica, I could just implode from laughing in boredom - Which is a hard thing to do... when you think of the physics and emotions.

[This message has been edited by ReavenK (edited 08-31-2005).]

I'm Waiting for Paradise_Lost to come back, he's like Moral-Machine. And (too me) he's a fucking genius at this stuff, I want you too say more!

Christianity is not a plague my friend. I am a Christian. This doesn't mean that I go around smashing Bibles over peoples head(I don't even own one ATM), or that I wear pleated pants and plaid vests. You would DEFINATELY not be able to tell that I am a Christian unless I told you so. It merely means that I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for me around 2005 years ago.

Also, God, having created the universe, is not bound by the physical attributes of it. He has 'always' been there, because time is only a property of this universe, and although asteroids\rocks\gasses\etc.(big bang) are subject to the physical laws of this world, He is not. Meaning: Planets\etc. cannot have existed 'forever', however a Divine Being not subject to the 'rules' set upon us and existing outside of this universe can.

AND BTW, I'm 15, go to a public high school where I have a shitload of friends.(I don't think anybody there knows that I am Christian though).



EDIT: I'm sorry, but you must not have read very far through the Bible, jsaxton14. Because it gives a 'consistent' description of the order of creation in the first chapter!



[This message has been edited by N0 W4RN1NG (edited 08-31-2005).]

quote:I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for me around 2005 years ago.[/B]

Wait! Wait! I though he was BORN 2005 years ago, thats why anytime before that was B.C. (Before Christ)?

quote:Originally posted by Skamoni:

[QUOTE]I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for me around 2005 years ago.

Wait! Wait! I though he was BORN 2005 years ago, thats why anytime before that was B.C. (Before Christ)?

Oh, Damn...Your right haha...well, it's 2:53 AM here.

BTW: I always seem to confuse A.D. for After Death (although I know it's not), which can confuse me sometimes lol.

[This message has been edited by N0 W4RN1NG (edited 08-31-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by IndicaSativa:

I am not even going to attempt to explain anything to you because you seem to retarded to understand. Read ATHEISM: The case against god, by George H Smith.

Does your theistic beliefs answer the questions that you asked? No.. I'm sorry, but you are stupid.



Ive just started that book, havent had time to read it though, to much college work.

Atheism the absence in the belief that a god or supernatural being exists. I just simply beleive that one does not exist, therefore it is your duty to prove me wrong.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

you assume just because i believe in god that im a christian?

as far as the bibles explination of creation, who knows? what im talking about is far beyond earths creation and mans evolution. i know the bible was saying life came from the water, long before science did. but there are alot of flaws in the bible. once again, just because i believe in god, doesn't mean that i believe 100% that he has a son. have you ever thought that the universe is god? and that that is what is infinite? i dont know, i dont have all the answers.

and you with this singularity bs. you probably didn't think i'd know what that was. it's just a math thing, it has nothing to do with what was here before the big bang. a singularity is simply an equation. was that your attempt on explaing time? these are reasons alot of scientist believe in god. because there is simply no other explination from the facts that explain these things.

and you still havn't attempted to tell me whats outside of the universe.

Let's get this straight.

1. You and I, both don't know what's outside the universe.

2. I am looking for the answer.

3. But, you have given up the search for the answer by claiming that what's outside the universe is god.

4. Conclusion, anything beyond your comprehension is god. So according to you, god can be Loch Ness Monster, Yeti, aliens or whatever.

You make good points heidegger

I don't believe in god because i like to sleep in on sunday and have sex and masturbate and do drugs.

I dont really care where I'm going in life, im sure itll all work out fine

quote:Originally posted by randomhugh:

I don't believe in god because i like to sleep in on sunday and have sex and masturbate and do drugs.

I dont really care where I'm going in life, im sure itll all work out fine

Thats the spirit!!!!!!! It always works out fine for me

quote:Originally posted by randomhugh:

I don't believe in god because i like to sleep in on sunday and have sex and masturbate and do drugs.

I dont really care where I'm going in life, im sure itll all work out fine



There will be hell to pay when you get to the other side.

quote:Originally posted by heidegger:

Let's get this straight.

1. You and I, both don't know what's outside the universe.

Yes but we can assume using logic, not some idiotic theory thats been drilled into kids for decades.

quote:

2. I am looking for the answer.

Aren't we all, its stupid not too, religous people can rely on their faith all they want, its not going to provide answers, you shall only find answers if you ask questions.



[This message has been edited by TheNihilist (edited 08-31-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by TheNihilist:

Aren't we all, its stupid not too, religous people can rely on their faith all they want, its not going to provide answers, you shall only find answers if you ask questions.

[/B]

Some people don't ask, because they already assume that god is the answer or they fell that it would be totally pointless to ask.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

most athiest are dumbass highschool kids trying to be rebels. so if you dont believe in god, answer these 2 simple questions:

if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, because nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite.

Are you sure you should post this when your knowledge of mathematics (not to mention spelling...) is nowhere near highschool??

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

and when you ask us who created god or how long he has been here we can answer you. he's been here for ever. he is the beginning and the end, ie infinite. we as intellegent religious people can understand that there are things as people we cant understand, one of those things is god. but athiest just have abunch of bullshit, to try to discredit god.

and the people who "know about science" will give me the same bullshit you have. they dont know, but try to use big words to try to sound like they're explaining something.



You're not even attempting an argument here. We can turn right back around and say the universe has always existed. This is just a slap in the face to William of Ockham.

Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate.

Get to know it.

Which god are we trying to discredit? Your god, why aren't you having this moral crusade for all the others?

I'm sorry if those bastards who 'know about science' are giving you big words. They should be able to explain the most complex ideas in a nature that any ole laymen can understand!

quote:god is here from nothing because he is supernatural. are you saying the univers is supernatural?

See above - What evidence is there that anything supernatural doesn't have to have a creator? Or are you just completely contradicting yourself from earlier for fun...

quote:*incoherent ramble about his beliefs*

This amounts to nothing.

quote:have you ever thought that the universe is god?

So are you a pantheist now?

quote:and you with this singularity bs. you probably didn't think i'd know what that was. it's just a math thing, it has nothing to do with what was here before the big bang. a singularity is simply an equation. was that your attempt on explaing time? these are reasons alot of scientist believe in god. because there is simply no other explination from the facts that explain these things.

Wrong, Jesus Christ, read the link Jsaxton put up. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:here are men, who are very well educated, most likely more than any of you will ever be. who have highere IQ's than any of you, who believe in god. however some men with very high IQ's choose to be like you guys and talk thereselves in circles about things they dont understand.

It's not about the people who believe in it, it's the evidence for it. But if we want to play this game then ok.

Familiarize yourself with William James Sidis, he was the arguably smartest man to ever live, his IQ was estimated between 250-300. He was an avid atheist at age 6.

quote:Originally posted by Skamoni:

I'm Waiting for Paradise_Lost to come back, he's like Moral-Machine. And (too me) he's a fucking genius at this stuff, I want you too say more!

No no, Rust, Dagnabitt, Napoleon, Beta - they're all way smarter than me.



[This message has been edited by Paradise Lost (edited 08-31-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

there are men, who are very well educated, most likely more than any of you will ever be. who have highere IQ's than any of you, who believe in god. however some men with very high IQ's choose to be like you guys and talk thereselves in circles about things they dont understand.

Care to name any of these mysterious people who bring religion into science.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Are you sure you should post this when your knowledge of mathematics (not to mention spelling...) is nowhere near highschool??



AHAHAHAH! Elfstone is God!

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

[B]No no, Rust, Dagnabitt, Napoleon, Beta - they're all way smarter than me.B]

Okay, I'll look out for there topics, it's just i've always been interested in what you say since you lectured me when I was being an arregant atheist afew months back. You rock!

(Sorry for spelling + gramma <---Dyslexia)

quote:Originally posted by Skamoni:

Okay, I'll look out for there topics, it's just i've always been interested in what you say since you lectured me when I was being an arregant atheist afew months back. You rock!

(Sorry for spelling + gramma <---Dyslexia)

I guess I should be flattered, I don't get much recognition on here. Sorry about the dyslexia. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by emucraphole:

Paradise Lost is a cool band. Check out Katatonia.

My username comes from Milton's epic poem, not the band.

[This message has been edited by Paradise Lost (edited 08-31-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by N0 W4RN1NG:

EDIT: I'm sorry, but you must not have read very far through the Bible, jsaxton14. Because it gives a 'consistent' description of the order of creation in the first chapter!

Did you get to Genesis 2? I did.

quote:Originally posted by N0 W4RN1NG:

Christianity is not a plague my friend.

Would 9-11 have happened if it were not for religion?

like, omg, im being bombarded with complete ignorance.

ok i read all the post but cant remember who said what. something about somebody with an IQ of 250-300, wich doesn't exist and a whole lot of other stuff.

let me explain something. the universe is constantly expanding. there is something outside. because if i have a house, and i tear down a wall, and build on, that means there is something beyond it. however, if my house was inside a cement box, i couldn't build on to it. you say "nothing" is outside of the universe. "nothing" doesn't exist. their cant just be "nothing".

most of you have admitted to being 15, and have tried to answer questions college professors cant answer, and admit they have no clue of, not to mention try to discredti me by attacking my spelling, because im typing fast. very smart. throw insults at me because you cant answer my questions.

is that why your so mad? because i finally gave you questions that the all-knowing 15 y/o athiest cans answer? lol.

you keep saying "science cant explain this, but neither can your religion". but religion doesn't have to. any religious person believes in infinity. they believe that god was always here. so me, nor any other religious person will attempt to explain it, rather just point out flaws in athiesm. and like i said, im not what i would consider a christian, but all athiest throw stones at christians, but theirs more flaws in athiesm than christianity. i dont care if jesus was supposed to have children with his own mother, rather than mary magdolin, christianity still wouldn't have the same kind of flaws that im pointing out.

i believe jesus was a great person, possibly the best person ever to walk the earth. however, i doubt that something as complex as god would have sent a human son. i dont know that he even claimed to be the son of god. it was debated a long time ago wether he even existed or not. so how can we know what he said. he was a good person who died for what he believed in.

im gone for today, i'll leave you 15 y/o's to scramble to try to explain things nobody knows the answers to, except religious people. and throw insults at me whenever you cant answer something.

If God can be infinite and have always been there, why is it not possible for the Universe to be so?

Your logic is flawed.

To quote you - 'something cannot come from nothing'.

God is something?

Perhaps God is the Universe. But regardless, your logic is flawed.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

you say "nothing" is outside of the universe. "nothing" doesn't exist. their cant just be "nothing".



Why?

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

like, omg, im being bombarded with complete ignorance.

ok i read all the post but cant remember who said what. something about somebody with an IQ of 250-300, wich doesn't exist and a whole lot of other stuff.

let me explain something. the universe is constantly expanding. there is something outside. because if i have a house, and i tear down a wall, and build on, that means there is something beyond it. however, if my house was inside a cement box, i couldn't build on to it. you say "nothing" is outside of the universe. "nothing" doesn't exist. their cant just be "nothing".

most of you have admitted to being 15, and have tried to answer questions college professors cant answer, and admit they have no clue of, not to mention try to discredti me by attacking my spelling, because im typing fast. very smart. throw insults at me because you cant answer my questions.

is that why your so mad? because i finally gave you questions that the all-knowing 15 y/o athiest cans answer? lol.

you keep saying "science cant explain this, but neither can your religion". but religion doesn't have to. any religious person believes in infinity. they believe that god was always here. so me, nor any other religious person will attempt to explain it, rather just point out flaws in athiesm. and like i said, im not what i would consider a christian, but all athiest throw stones at christians, but theirs more flaws in athiesm than christianity. i dont care if jesus was supposed to have children with his own mother, rather than mary magdolin, christianity still wouldn't have the same kind of flaws that im pointing out.

i believe jesus was a great person, possibly the best person ever to walk the earth. however, i doubt that something as complex as god would have sent a human son. i dont know that he even claimed to be the son of god. it was debated a long time ago wether he even existed or not. so how can we know what he said. he was a good person who died for what he believed in.

im gone for today, i'll leave you 15 y/o's to scramble to try to explain things nobody knows the answers to, except religious people. and throw insults at me whenever you cant answer something.

youve been answered numerous times buddy. Your just one of those jackasses who refuses to be wrong and you keep complaining and insulting about "supposed" qeustions that havent been answered and about how all you hear is insults. When you yourself will not only answer qeustions thrown back at you (you know far too little) but you also seem to be the only one with a smug sense of self satisfaction for no reason whatsoever. And in response to your response on Wicca- That is the most ridiculous explenation of my religion I ever heard, From that alone I can see that your opinions are by no means rooted in fact and if you ever claim to know what your talking about when speaking of wicca please dont make us sound like idiots

Religion is just another theory

Your questions dont stand to prove much of anything no matter what answer I give, they sure as fuck wouldn't point to some higher intelligence as I feel that is what you are trying to get at.

I'm in high school and I am an atheist. I've also read 6 Richard Dawkin books and have one of his debates on vhs. I doubt you could even understand the first few pages of a Dawkins book, so quit fucking stereotyping me in with hot topic kids.

I don't fight the idea of a creator, it just seems much less probable when you are informed about how natural selection has worked in the last 4.6 billion years. This is still no reason for me to flock to a religion. With time comes answers. We haven't been around for THAT long anyway compared to the 4.6 billion years the earth has. This is just the religious type getting ancy/nervous as science advances and disproves more and more of their core belief.

[This message has been edited by Terio (edited 08-31-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Speaking of creation, can you explain to me why the Bible has two contradictory creation stories? Which came first, plants/animals or man. Science can come up with a consistent answer to that question. Your Bible can't.

Genesis 1:11

11And God said, Let the earth put forth [tender] vegetation: plants yielding seed and fruit trees yielding fruit whose seed is in itself, each according to its kind, upon the earth. And it was so.

Genesis 1:24

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creeping things, and [wild] beasts of the earth according to their kinds. And it was so.

Genesis 1:26

26God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness.... 27So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Ive nver heard anything about the bible contradicting itself. if you find anything you tell me. (bottom of the page..) [URL=http: //bible.go spelcom.ne t/quicksea rch/?quick search=The +creation+ &x=0&y=0]h http://bible.gospelcom.net/quicksearch/?quicksearch=The+creation+&x=0&y=0



[This message has been edited by arson221 (edited 08-31-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

ok i read all the post but cant remember who said what. something about somebody with an IQ of 250-300, wich doesn't exist and a whole lot of other stuff.

Jesus fucking Christ! I can't take it anymore, why are you so dumb?

The Prodigy - William James Sidis (http://tinyurl.com/dedu4)

What the hell is with your constant ad hom attacks, pal?

quote:most of you have admitted to being 15, and have tried to answer questions college professors cant answer, and admit they have no clue of, not to mention try to discredti me by attacking my spelling, because im typing fast. very smart. throw insults at me because you cant answer my questions.

I believe I was the only one who admitted to being 15, and where does everyone attack your spelling/grammar?

quote:you say "nothing" is outside of the universe. "nothing" doesn't exist. their cant just be "nothing".

Why is that?

quote:is that why your so mad? because i finally gave you questions that the all-knowing 15 y/o athiest cans answer? lol.

I'm not mad, I'm annoyed by your close-minded ignorance, the only question I didn't answer was the universe one.

quote:you keep saying "science cant explain this, but neither can your religion". but religion doesn't have to.

Who is this directed at? I never once said that. Religion doesn't have to explain it, what kind of basis for belief is that?

quote:any religious person believes in infinity. they believe that god was always here. so me, nor any other religious person will attempt to explain it

Then your whole argument has been defenestrated! You can't posit that something can't come from nothing and then turn right back around and say it can!

quote: rather just point out flaws in athiesm.

Go on, point out the flaws in weak atheism.

quote:and like i said, im not what i would consider a christian, but all athiest throw stones at christians, but theirs more flaws in athiesm than christianity.

Take your stereotyping strawman arguments elsewhere, not all atheists do anything. And once again, point out the flaws in weak atheism.



[This message has been edited by Paradise Lost (edited 08-31-2005).]

What's an athiest? I do know what an atheist is, but an athiest?

wow........this is sad.

topic starter has made numerous logical flaws. my favorite is the one he bases his whole argument on. he makes a claim and expects people to answer it before he has proven his own claim. it's an argument from ignorance. "since you can't prove your position mine is obviously right." well no, not quite. just because things aren't yet proven or understood doesn't mean god exists. it's the "God of the gaps" idea. You just fill up what science hasn't yet explained with "god did it." that's great, except it doesn't advance humanity at all and simply serves to satisfy your world-view so that you don't need to learn anymore. you satisfy the crave to learn by feeding yourself some "this solves everything" idea which isn't proven, and thus you will always remain ignorant.

I will now answer the two original questions.

what's outside of the universe? nothing.

read "fabric of the cosmos" by Brian Greene. It's a nice intro to string theory as well.

what was the universe like before the big bang?

there wasn't anything. before the singularity there was nothing. God is simply an outdated explanation. Again, read Brian Greene's book. It explains these points rather well.

So now that I've used a noted theoretical physicist to answer your questions, you can please shut the fuck up and quit being ignorant. You can't simply disregard things because they don't sound good to you. That's like saying "Dinosaurs didn't exist because I don't like that idea." Or "I don't like cancer so I don't think it can exist." It's exactly the same mode of thinking.

About the Genesis thing...........seriously you people are sad. Read the 1st AND 2nd chapters!!!!!!!! Let me post it.



Genesis 1 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



Genesis 1

The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,

in the image of God he created him;

male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Genesis 2 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



Genesis 2

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Adam and Eve

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [b] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man [e] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin [f] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. [g] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.

But for Adam [h] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [i] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [j] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,

"This is now bone of my bones

and flesh of my flesh;

she shall be called 'woman, [k] '

for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.



In Genesis 1 man was created last. In Genesis 2 man was created first. That is the contradiction. I hope it's plain to see now.

[quote] i was raised a christian. i read the bible.[quote]

this is why you wont change your beliefs. you want to believe that god is real, because likely most of your life was based on this idea. for you to realise that christianity is bs, you have to realise it on your own. no one can just tell you something and you go " o ic", because you'll fight it by saying well god is super all powerful and blah blah..

so if your going to come on here asking people to tell u why christianity is bs, come here wanting more reasons to help yourself move away from it.

go read the pagan christ its a very interesting book.

Why are we paying this guy any heed? It's just a half-assed tirade with no logical backing. The best part is he really thinks he has us beat. Like someone else said, he's the only one in this thread with a sense of smug self-satisfaction.

[This message has been edited by Paradise Lost (edited 08-31-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by arson221:



Genesis 1:11

11And God said, Let the earth put forth [tender] vegetation: plants yielding seed and fruit trees yielding fruit whose seed is in itself, each according to its kind, upon the earth. And it was so.

Genesis 1:24

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creeping things, and [wild] beasts of the earth according to their kinds. And it was so.

Genesis 1:26

26God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness.... 27So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Ive nver heard anything about the bible contradicting itself. if you find anything you tell me. (bottom of the page..) h [URL=http: //bible.go spelcom.ne t/quicksea rch/?quick search=The +creation+ &x=0&y=0]h ttp://bible.gospelcom.net/quicksearch/?quicksearch=The+creation+&x=0&y=0 (http: //bible.go spelcom.ne t/quicksea rch/?quick search=The +creation+ &x=0&y=0)



I explained this. You just failed to read both Genesis 1 and 2. Please read Fanglekai's post.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:



if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, because nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite. so whats at the end?



Holy crap you mean they discovered the last digit to Pi?!

Care to fill the rest of us in on what the last digit in Pi is?

He's not coming back, He's been exctensivley owned

Um isnt the universe always expanding or something?

But dude seriously theres so much we dont know, so why bother?

I'd just like to say I hate you sawed_off. That is all.

ok well ill give this ago although im pretty sure most of this is beyond me. I forget who but someone said that this stuff is way beyond us. I agree. I don't think the human mind can even comprefend infinite. This discusion will never be resolved because there are WAY to many arguments, theories, yadda yadda yadda. And unfortunately most of sawed_offs questions are things that renowned scientists cannot even answer. I doubt a hig-school atheist or even a totsean can answer them.

I am a very strong atheist, who happens to dislike all organised religion immensly. Religion is a major excuse for prejudiced and separating people. And the second largest cause of war. (Which is rather ironic as I plan on joining the Royal Marines.)

I feel that you do not need science or mathematics to disprove religion, using history is so much simpler; the first homo-sapiens who could imagine and create, asked themselves "Why does the Earth's functions happen?"

"Why does it rain?"

"Why does the sun move across the sky?"

We now know the answers to this seemingly impossible questions, but these first humans saw these happenings as actions of higher beings. The first Gods if you will.

Examples

In Egyptian mythology, Ra passes through Duat (the underworld) every night. Apep has to be defeated in the darkness hours for Ra and his solar barge to emerge in the east each morning.The barge then travels across the sky.

In Japanese mythology, the sun goddess Amaterasu is angered by the behavior of her brother, Susanoo, and hides herself in a cave, plunging the world into darkness.

In Norse mythology, both the gods Odin and Tyr have attributes of a sky father, and they are doomed to be devoured by wolves (Fenrir and Garm, respectively) at Ragnarok. Sol, the Norse sun goddess, will be devoured by the wolf Skoll.

(I admit I do not know enough about prehistoric beliefs to show examples, apart from the belief in spirits that controlled the elements.)

I look at history and I see that religions adapt as the questions that were originally acts of Gods are answered.

At the time of Ancient Egyptians, they believed strongly in the likes of Ra and Isis.

The Romans/Greeks thought that Jupiter/Zeus were the kings of the Gods.

If all these Gods have become obsolete throughout time, how do Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Jews (same God as the Christians), etc, know for certain that their God is the true creator of the universe?

I posed this question to a firm believer in the Christian faith. He gave me some shit about feeling an “indescribable warmth”.

Throughout history, science as overstepped religion; every time another as taken its place.

If that makes any sense, then people on this thread will not have to look to the stars for answers on religious credibility, yet instead past civilisations.





[This message has been edited by CrazyStoner (edited 08-31-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

most athiest are dumbass highschool kids trying to be rebels. so if you dont believe in god, answer these 2 simple questions:

.......... .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... .................................................. ..

so please, you intellegent 16 year olds, tell me the answers, and i'll quit believing in god right now. since you want to act like you know everything, answer those simple questions.

Just because we are atheists does not mean we know these answers. It means we believe there is another answer to the questions than you believe.

I have a feeling that sawed_off_pump doesn't know very much about his religion.

I am guessing that you are a Christian, because only people of that religion are as aggressivly insecureas you. Hell, the Jews, who have been persecuted for millenia aren't as bad as you guys.

Do you know how much of your religion contains "pagan" symbols and stories. Your religion is an adapted hybrid of other religions, which are now extinct. This causes me to think that somehow you bible isn't exactly the truth, if it is a variation on obselete believes.



[This message has been edited by CrazyStoner (edited 08-31-2005).]

I only read about half the posts so forgive me if this is a repost.

No matter what you believe in, it's always better to keep seeking knowledge instead of being certain and numb from religion or science. Scientist's can't answer some questions, and neither can religous peoeples, the important part is that there is a struggle with knowledge which leads to discovery.

quote:Originally posted by MMs:

I only read about half the posts so forgive me if this is a repost.

No matter what you believe in, it's always better to keep seeking knowledge instead of being certain and numb from religion or science. Scientist's can't answer some questions, and neither can religous peoeples, the important part is that there is a struggle with knowledge which leads to discovery.

well put, I like that

i second that

These questions are irrelevant to the existence of a god. What you are attempting to argue is on par with claiming that because fairies do not exist leprechauns most exist. The theist always carries the burden of proof just as the Leprechanunist always does. I do not have to prove anything to justify my lack of belief in leprechauns and if one scientific explanation for the universe is proven false you can not pop in with you particular brand of theism. Your argument is no more suitable for Christianity than it is for Islam or Leprechanism. Even if I have only adopted my atheistic beliefs to be a dumbass highschool rebel it is also irrelevant as motives are only significant when one is asked to take ones word or believe on faith. What matters is the arguments behind a belief not the motives for having it.



[This message has been edited by Perspicacious (edited 09-01-2005).]

Fanglekai and Paradise Lost's posts rocks. Here is my 2 cents on this dumbass:

quote:

and according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff. but what was here before the stars? before the planets? what created space? how did space get here? what would it look like without space?



Before the stars, planets, there was a big bang. Before that, either A) complete vacuum of space, an inversion of time B) time goes in a loop, you see the world collapsing into a big bang, and then exploding.

quote:

the point is, something cant come from nothing. there had to be something that was always here. if gas created space and the universe, where did the gas come from, or dust or whatever. there is no answer. you want to laugh at how "uncool" religious people sound saying that god is the reason for us being here, but your the dumb ones because you cant acknowlege that there are things as humans we cant understand. we cant understand the concept of infinity.



ANTIMATTER my friend, read about it. Regarding a source, both a universe and a god needs a source. God was created before physical law? Then why not the universe transcending science as well?

You can't acknowledge that "there are things as humans" that we can understand, through science, math, and common logic. We CAN understand anything, lest you be a dumbass creationist.

quote:

so please, you intellegent 16 year olds, tell me the answers, and i'll quit believing in god right now. since you want to act like you know everything, answer those simple questions.



I am a 16 year old agnostic (weak atheist). How the FUCK should I give you answers that you should say to real scientists?

quote:

and when you ask us who created god or how long he has been here we can answer you. he's been here for ever. he is the beginning and the end, ie infinite. we as intellegent religious people can understand that there are things as people we cant understand, one of those things is god. but athiest just have abunch of bullshit, to try to discredit god.



The same logic can be applied to a god-less universe, being eternal. Intelligent religious people, if religius people were as intellectually inept as you, is an oxymoron. A bunch of bullshit is called research, theories, and observations. More than you have.

quote:

and the people who "know about science" will give me the same bullshit you have. they dont know, but try to use big words to try to sound like they're explaining something. i've asked scientist, and what not, and they say the universe is a loop, and if you travel enough you end up in the same place. but cant answer the $100,000 question, WHATS OUTSIDE?



Big words? HAHhahaha! They sound big because you have an absense of knowledge. BECOME AND SCIENTIST and ye shall know!

The universe can so go on forever. Numbers do; according to many beliefs, so does life.

It may go in a loop, it may be symmetrical. Scientists don't know, there are only theories. Just as religion is only theory.

What's more, the Bible was written by men. The English Bible is not even the original wording, I believe it's the International Standard Version that's the most accurate.

Never before has their been a book so gutted so many times...and people still base their lives on it.

You say you believe in the Bible, which one?

Before the Universe was nothing. Period. There can and there can't be nothing. A new verb must be invented to describe what nothing actual does, seeing as it cannot "be" because that would contratict its very nonexistance.

I bet that made sense.

Now are there more loops outside the loop theory? I'm forgetting.

Lack of comprehension for things yet to be studied does not mean that these things don't exist.

No one has ever proven God exists, but there it is. I believe Douglas Adams put it best with Hitchhiker's Guide. I don't remember the exact quote. It was about the Babel fish and the fact that such a useful creature exists proves there is a God, in turn proving there is no God. If one can prove that there is a God, then there won't be because God is faith. Faith vanishing in the face of fact.

You're trying to find truth by process of elimination. I'll tell you what, that only works when you're trying to decide what shirt goes with what pair of pants.

Loves,

Lynne

quote:Originally posted by Lynne le Fay:

The universe can so go on forever. Numbers do; according to many beliefs, so does life.

It may go in a loop, it may be symmetrical. Scientists don't know, there are only theories. Just as religion is only theory.

What's more, the Bible was written by men. The English Bible is not even the original wording, I believe it's the International Standard Version that's the most accurate.

Never before has their been a book so gutted so many times...and people still base their lives on it.

You say you believe in the Bible, which one?

Before the Universe was nothing. Period. There can and there can't be nothing. A new verb must be invented to describe what nothing actual does, seeing as it cannot "be" because that would contratict its very nonexistance.

I bet that made sense.

Now are there more loops outside the loop theory? I'm forgetting.

Lack of comprehension for things yet to be studied does not mean that these things don't exist.

No one has ever proven God exists, but there it is. I believe Douglas Adams put it best with Hitchhiker's Guide. I don't remember the exact quote. It was about the Babel fish and the fact that such a useful creature exists proves there is a God, in turn proving there is no God. If one can prove that there is a God, then there won't be because God is faith. Faith vanishing in the face of fact.

You're trying to find truth by process of elimination. I'll tell you what, that only works when you're trying to decide what shirt goes with what pair of pants.

Loves,

Lynne

Ive never seen you here before. your a goddess, wanna E-sex?

Does Biblical knowledge turn you on?

That's kinda kinky, but you might be better suited for a priest. They're more lacking in erotic satisfaction that I.

MSN me: lynnelefay@hotmail.com

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

most athiest are dumbass highschool kids trying to be rebels. so if you dont believe in god, answer these 2 simple questions:

if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, because nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite. so whats at the end? how can it just be nothing? hint: dont give me that "it goes in a loop" shit. scientist talk thereselves in circles with that, but cant answer the question: "whats outside of this loop"?

and according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff. but what was here before the stars? before the planets? what created space? how did space get here? what would it look like without space?



the point is, something cant come from nothing. there had to be something that was always here. if gas created space and the universe, where did the gas come from, or dust or whatever. there is no answer. you want to laugh at how "uncool" religious people sound saying that god is the reason for us being here, but your the dumb ones because you cant acknowlege that there are things as humans we cant understand. we cant understand the concept of infinity.

so please, you intellegent 16 year olds, tell me the answers, and i'll quit believing in god right now. since you want to act like you know everything, answer those simple questions.



you idiot. just because you have to put an invisible man in charge of this doesn't mean we have to.

to answer your first question, the universe *DOESN'T* end. gee, I may have hurt your head with that one, so I'll explain it a little bit using simple logic that even a christian could understand: if it ended, there would be some physical barrier- in that case, the space between stars would be slightly more illuminated, as the light would bounce off of the edge of the universe (and theoretically come back).

now, small minded-question number two: we don't know, but we aren't trying to say we know either. we have ideas, we have some proof for the ideas- proof being considerably more valuable than 'evidence' of god's existance- but we aren't sticking an invisible man in there and saying "we have bigger dicks than you!" like all the creationist shit-heads you emulate.

edit: you're holding up the progress of humanity. accept that you don't know, that your god doesn't explain away everything, and get out of the fucking way of progress. I'm tired of being held back from really cool shit because knowlege is a 'sin'.

[This message has been edited by Choscura (edited 09-02-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

and when you ask us who created god or how long he has been here we can answer you. he's been here for ever. he is the beginning and the end, ie infinite. we as intellegent religious people can understand that there are things as people we cant understand, one of those things is god. but athiest just have abunch of bullshit, to try to discredit god.



Errrm, which God?

Oh...God. That God, that God, thaaaat God. Is your God my God? Or is it G-d, or is it Jehovah, or Allah, or Jesus, or Buddha, or Mother Earth, Satan, God 1, God 2, God 3, the Great White Spirit in the Sky, Neo, Britney Spears, myself.....ad infinitum, ad nauseum, etc.

You know what, I once heard my sister say that Justin Timberlake was, like, so, totally, just, way, a God. He must be the God we're talking about. Hey, my sister and you can go worship God (Justin Timberlake) together.

quote:Originally posted by Lynne le Fay:

If one can prove that there is a God, then there won't be because God is faith.

"God" is not faith. Religion is; however, the God that most posit certainly doesn't depend on people believing in Him.

Probably gonna come out wrong and I'll just sound like some fucked up stoner, but...

By your own admission "something can't come from nothing", therefore God - by your logic - is nothing. Therefore, you have nothing to believe in.

[This message has been edited by Gith (edited 09-03-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

"God" is not faith. B]

Why not?

quote:Originally posted by Lynne le Fay:

Why not?

Why? I see no reason to think that God somehow depends on the faith of puny humans. The religion is faith. God, at least in Islam/Christianity/Judaism, is the All. He's an omnipotent and omniscient intelligence; why would such a thing subsist on faith? What does faith have to do with Him? Besides which, He apparently created the entire universe and human race as well, meaning He must have existed before our faith in Him. Then there's the afterlife in which we apparently have direct contact with Him; that would prove that He exists.

You're confusing the idea of God and the idea of religion. If we could prove that God existed, that would have no bearing on Him; however, religion and faith itself would disappear.

I'm not sure if someone covered this but...

Most atheists are not teenagers, maybe you were thinking of satanists.

Most atheists are buddhists, taoists, Humanists and non religious. Of those groups a large percentage are adults.

It might surprise people to find out that the largest atheist religion/philosophy/belief in the world is buddhism.

If I had to guess I would say that percentage wise christianity is made up of more children and teenagers than atheism. Since most atheists don't believe in indoctrination, their religion isn't forced onto their kids unlike many christian sects.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

most athiest are dumbass highschool kids trying to be rebels. so if you dont believe in god, answer these 2 simple questions:

if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, because nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite. so whats at the end? how can it just be nothing? hint: dont give me that "it goes in a loop" shit. scientist talk thereselves in circles with that, but cant answer the question: "whats outside of this loop"?

and according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff. but what was here before the stars? before the planets? what created space? how did space get here? what would it look like without space?



the point is, something cant come from nothing. there had to be something that was always here. if gas created space and the universe, where did the gas come from, or dust or whatever. there is no answer. you want to laugh at how "uncool" religious people sound saying that god is the reason for us being here, but your the dumb ones because you cant acknowlege that there are things as humans we cant understand. we cant understand the concept of infinity.

so please, you intellegent 16 year olds, tell me the answers, and i'll quit believing in god right now. since you want to act like you know everything, answer those simple questions.



I'm not an Atheist, but let me flame you anyways.

You are a complete dumbass. We have scientists to answer those questions. Plus, there is no way for knowing for sure until we 'travel' to the end of the universe, if there is an end... except for the fact we'd have to travel faster than light...

Atheists are like any other human... They don't know everything.

Oh wait... Adam and Eve ate the apple of knowledge, right? So shouldn't humans know everything? Hmmmm... There seems to be a major flaw in your religious thinking.

Dude, I'll get back on this topic to flame you later... I've got a MAJOR brain fart from my AGS homework...

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, because nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

the point is, something cant come from nothing. there had to be something that was always here.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

and when you ask us who created god or how long he has been here we can answer you. he's been here for ever. he is the beginning and the end, ie infinite.

"i was raised a christian. i read the bible."

I think we've found the problem guys!

he's well brainwashed, it'll be a hard one to fix; this one.

also what amazing advancement has religion and christianity ever given to man or human society?

say ONE thing!

say ONE thing god has Ever done since he supposedly created the universe.

have YOU or ANYONE YOU KNOW, or ANYONE YOU HAVE HEARD OF, AT ANY TIME EVER, seen (or detected in ANY WAY) ANYTHING, in the slightest bit SUPERNATURAL?????

think carefully, question what you have been led to believe.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:



if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, ...

... but your the dumb ones because you cant acknowlege that there are things as humans we cant understand. we cant understand the concept of infinity.



Maybe the Universe CAN go on forever. You just cannot understand the concept of infinity.

I think he's a troll.

Multiverse!

The thread starter totally got his ignorant lttle face pwnd.

He could have masturbated instead.

[This message has been edited by dae (edited 09-04-2005).]

Hey dumbass, at the end is the same "nothing-ness" as before you were born... Can you remember stuff before you were born? No. Its the same thing.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

like, omg, im being bombarded with complete ignorance.

ok i read all the post but cant remember who said what. something about somebody with an IQ of 250-300, wich doesn't exist and a whole lot of other stuff.

let me explain something. the universe is constantly expanding. there is something outside. because if i have a house, and i tear down a wall, and build on, that means there is something beyond it. however, if my house was inside a cement box, i couldn't build on to it. you say "nothing" is outside of the universe. "nothing" doesn't exist. their cant just be "nothing".

most of you have admitted to being 15, and have tried to answer questions college professors cant answer, and admit they have no clue of, not to mention try to discredti me by attacking my spelling, because im typing fast. very smart. throw insults at me because you cant answer my questions.

is that why your so mad? because i finally gave you questions that the all-knowing 15 y/o athiest cans answer? lol.

you keep saying "science cant explain this, but neither can your religion". but religion doesn't have to. any religious person believes in infinity. they believe that god was always here. so me, nor any other religious person will attempt to explain it, rather just point out flaws in athiesm. and like i said, im not what i would consider a christian, but all athiest throw stones at christians, but theirs more flaws in athiesm than christianity. i dont care if jesus was supposed to have children with his own mother, rather than mary magdolin, christianity still wouldn't have the same kind of flaws that im pointing out.

i believe jesus was a great person, possibly the best person ever to walk the earth. however, i doubt that something as complex as god would have sent a human son. i dont know that he even claimed to be the son of god. it was debated a long time ago wether he even existed or not. so how can we know what he said. he was a good person who died for what he believed in.

im gone for today, i'll leave you 15 y/o's to scramble to try to explain things nobody knows the answers to, except religious people. and throw insults at me whenever you cant answer something.



Dude... This is my opinion, first of all, I'll get it out of the way, I'm 15, and I don't believe in God, Jesus, or any of that bull, but, I'm not an athiest. I also didn't read most of the posts because of the length and such, so I might be saying something totally off topic.

Ok, this basically goes back to "Santa Claus". We know he isn't real. Basically, we all wondered when we were little, how can one man, in one night, go all over the world and give everyone presents? Well, how can one man create everything that is before us? The ground we walk on, the sky we look into everyday, the sun that gives us heat... Is the man invincible? I don't think anyone can make something as hot as the sun without killing himself.

I have a question for you... How can you ask us these questions if you yourself can't answer them? This is proving nothing. You can't just say, God is real and made the world. There is no proof. And we can't say God isn't real. We have no proof either. God is real if you believe in him, and if you believe in him, all the more to you.

I think that they made up God and stuff back in the day, when the church ran everything, so people would be scared about going to hell. They would do something and feel guilty about it, so they would go to church and confess their sins, then the collection plate would come around. Still not feeling better? Put some money in it, then you'll feel fine. Basically, I think that the church is just a giant scam to make money.

Wow, this whole thing is rediculous. trying to say that someone on totse is going to answer the question of how the universe got here, etc... Sawed-pimp, you seem to think since nobody has all the answers to your stupid questions makes you right by saying (summed up) "god has always been here, he made everything and i am too scared of reality so i am going to keep telling myself this." i know for sure that i do not have any of these answers but i do know that giving "god" all the credit is just pure ignorance. find some physical proof of a god or any of his doings, show them to me, please. more than "oh the ground you are walking on and the world you live in", because that is so very unproven. noone knows exactly why or how the world is here but just simply taking the easy way out and crediting some unkown force or being that has never been seen and that nobody has any evidence of is putting your head in the sand. and also i know its a little off topic but i hate it when people say things like "look at what the creator has provided for us" when they talk about civilization or anything in the modern world. people need to start taking some damned credit for how good we have it. god did not give us vaccines to cure illnesses, or any other things that have saved us and made our lives better we gave them to ourselves, god did not make the world around us the way it is, we did.

any thoughts?

sorry about any spelling/grammar errors and sorry if all this sounds like rambeling, im very tired, but i wanted to get my point across.

Nothing --> Matter/Antimatter.

[Nothing] (Universe) [Nothing].

It's not so hard to comprehend. Outside of all matter there's just nothing. Simple huh?

A lot of people have spoken their mind here. Some things have been rather brilliant, regardless of who they're casting their lot with. Others, including but definately not limited to, Paradise lost and Sawed off have said some things that seem astoundingly backwards.

I think it's important to realize that a definite answer just isnt available to us.

True, it MUST be considered possible that Christianity/God is a farce because, as seemingly complex and lengthy as the Bible is, essentially it was still created by humans. We also have other "Holy" texts, if one can be true, the others could be true. However there is one thing that the Atheists among us may or may not have overlooked. And this is the experience one has as a Christian, or even possibly, though I dont know, that of those who have a true close personal relationship with their God.

I realize that there are probably atheists here who have not been so there whole lives. I would venture to say that its possible their prior belief may have lacked the genuine quality that one needs to see the hand of God in their everyday life.

If God can be, then God can not be just as easily. If God can have created everything, then there can just as easily be 'absolutely nothing'. If space can go on forever, then space can just as easily have a endpoints. If God can create everything, then something like the big bang can be possible. Though something like that in reality seems quite infeasible. As does evolution. When you look at the complexity in nature, it could seem more logical to believe that a supreme, (omni -potent, -scient, -present), being created all things to work as perfectly as they do, rather than believe that it simply all fell in to place in that manner.

For example, and this comes from a website called www.aboundingjoy.com/beetle/htm: (http://www.aboundingjoy.com/beetle/htm:)

"The bombardier beetle is a small insect that is armed with a shockingly impressive defense system. Whenever threatened by an enemy attack, this spirited little beetle blasts irritating and odious gases, which are at 212 degrees F. out from two tail pipes right into the unfortunate face of the would be aggressor.

"Dr. Wermann Schildknecht, a German chemist, studied the bombardier beetle to find out how he accomplishes this impressive chemical feat. He learned that the beetle makes his explosive by mixing together two very dangerous chemicals (hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide). In addition to these two chemicals, this clever little beetle adds another type of chemical known as an inhibitor. The inhibitor prevents the chemicals from blowing up and enables the beetle to store the chemicals indefinitely.

"Whenever our beetle friend is approached by a predator, such as a frog, he squirts the stored chemicals into the two combustion tubes, and at precisely the right moment he adds another chemical (an antiinhibitor). This knocks out the inhibitor, and a violent explosion occurs right in the face of the poor attacker.

"Could such a marvelous and complex mechanism have evolved piecemeal over millions of years? The evolutionist is forced to respond with a somewhat sheepish "yes," but a brief consideration of this opinion will reveal its preposterous nature.

"According to evolutionary "thinking" there must have been thousands of generations of beetles improperly mixing these hazardous chemicals in fatal evolutionary experiments, blowing themselves to pieces. Eventually. we are assured, they arrived at the magic formula, but what about the development of the inhibitor? There is no need to evolve an inhibitor unless you already have the two chemicals you are trying to inhibit. On the other hand. if you already have the two chemicals without the inhibitor, it is already too late, for you have just blown yourself up. Obviously, such an arrangement would never arise apart from intelligent foresight and planning. Nevertheless, let us assume that our little beetle friend somehow managed to simultaneously develop the two chemicals along with the all important inhibitor. The resultant solution would offer no benefit at all to the beetle, for it would just sit there as a harmless concoction. To be of any value to the beetle, the antiinhibitor must he added to the solution. So, once again, for thousands of generations we are supposed to believe that these poor beetles mixed and stored these chemicals for no particular reason or advantage until finally, the anti inhibitor was perfected. Now he is really getting somewhere! With the antiinhibitor developed he can now blow himself to pieces, frustrating the efforts of the hungry predator who wants to eat him. Ah yes. he still needs to evolve the two combustion tubes, and a precision communications and timing network to control and adjust the critical direction and timing of the explosion. So, here we go again; for thousands of generations these carefree little beetles went around celebrating the 4th of July by blowing themselves to pieces until finally they mastered their new found powers.

Isnt that interesting? I find it so.

My objective here isnt to convert anybody, or impress you with my knowledge, after all you are all just a bunch of faceless names at different points all over the world. I just wanted to add something that I thought was interesting to this discussion.

I wish I could be an atheist. I dont like the idea of being forced in to either heaven or hell. I dont like the idea that my creator, at best, allowed Hell to be created, at worst is essentially the cause of it. However because HE is the supreme being and I am the puny mortal and logic seemingly points more to him than to any other possibility I continue on my daily journey.

What I have said may seem conflicted. What with my talk of experiencing a genuine relationship with God/Jesus and my simultaneous desire for nonexistence. But an atheist can never know what I am speaking of until they too take the plunge and pursue a close relationship with God. At worst I have spent my life following the Bible, living for God, feeling fulfilled day to day, having hope and security in times of strife, helping others, and being happy. At best I have done all that and will go to Heaven where, according to God's word I will experience a divine fulfillment and a perfect love with the rest of His population and spend eternity in fellowship with these others and Him.

Really it seems like a win win to me.

If you dont believe me that's fine. You may think "he doesnt know what he's talking about, he's prob never gotten high, never known what its like to experience what seems to be an almost divine or supernatural enlightenment after having eaten only a few grams of some particularly potent Psilocybe Cyanescens. Or he has never gotten drunk with his mates and experienced first hand what its like to have a real good time. Why, he's prob never had a day of fun in his whole life."

Or maybe that's not what you're thinking. Either way, I have. I've taken my fair share of substances. Frankly I find them fascinating. Not neccessarily always fulfilling, but definately fascinating. Right now I move large quantities of reefer. I do it for the money. But I dont do it for the money as a means itself. I do it to have the money to go on a spiritual journey, like many have gone before me. To travel the world in search of answers, my own answers, not those that pastors, preachers, politicions, the famous or any others have put their own spin on. Just as close to the origin of the truth as possible.

Because if theres no God, then theres not much point to going on day to day really. I mean you could do some interesting things if you had a free reign over your life, no outside influences to hold you back, no rules to live by. But at the same time, as you will die, why not speed up the process and see whats beyond the grave.



[This message has been edited by CitrusHigh (edited 09-05-2005).]

God killed itself to create the universe

quote:Originally posted by CitrusHigh:



If you dont believe me that's fine. You may think "he doesnt know what he's talking about, he's prob never gotten high,

To the contrary, I think you must have been very high when you wrote this. And here's what you need to know about the bombardier beetle : http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bombardier.html

thread started made me lol

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

like, omg, im being bombarded with complete ignorance.

lik omg, u are stupid... are you a 13 year old girl by any chance? quote:

ok i read all the post but cant remember who said what. something about somebody with an IQ of 250-300, wich doesn't exist and a whole lot of other stuff.



to use your own logic, it cannot exist to you because it is above your understanding.

yes i am saying you have an iq of 3, how do you breathe?

quote:

let me explain something. the universe is constantly expanding. there is something outside. because if i have a house, and i tear down a wall, and build on, that means there is something beyond it. however, if my house was inside a cement box, i couldn't build on to it. you say "nothing" is outside of the universe. "nothing" doesn't exist. their cant just be "nothing".



just because you cannot comprehend "nothing" does not mean it doesn't exist.

quote:

most of you have admitted to being 15, and have tried to answer questions college professors cant answer, and admit they have no clue of, not to mention try to discredti me by attacking my spelling, because im typing fast. very smart. throw insults at me because you cant answer my questions.



we insult you because you are a moron, deserving of being insultted. compare yourself to college professors when you too are as educated as they are.

...

also I'm typing fast and my typing is fine.

quote:

is that why your so mad? because i finally gave you questions that the all-knowing 15 y/o athiest cans answer? lol.



which question was this?

quote:

you keep saying "science cant explain this, but neither can your religion". but religion doesn't have to. any religious person believes in infinity. they believe that god was always here. so me, nor any other religious person will attempt to explain it, rather just point out flaws in athiesm.



im not going to even bother to point our the flaws in your logic (read: he has an iq of 3), it would be too much for you too accept

quote:

and like i said, im not what i would consider a christian, but all athiest throw stones at christians, but theirs more flaws in athiesm than christianity.



yes it has a lot more flaws but that is only until you apply ratioinal though

quote:

i dont care if jesus was supposed to have children with his own mother, rather than mary magdolin, christianity still wouldn't have the same kind of flaws that im pointing out.



your the one saying he had sex with his mum not me, maybe you have an inscest fetish, i suggest help.

quote:

i believe jesus was a great person, possibly the best person ever to walk the earth. however, i doubt that something as complex as god would have sent a human son. i dont know that he even claimed to be the son of god. it was debated a long time ago wether he even existed or not. so how can we know what he said. he was a good person who died for what he believed in.



if you are trying to present an argument this section has no point and should have been ommited

quote:

im gone for today, i'll leave you 15 y/o's to scramble to try to explain things nobody knows the answers to. Religious people think they know the answers.



fixed

quote:

and throw insults at me whenever you cant answer something.



again, its not because we cannot answer your questions, I belive they were answered in the first post.

also, they wern't questions, they were statements.

we insult you because you have an iq of 3.

This is so funny...

Whoopsidaisy, what I wanted to say was, that it's so much fun to see a 16yo christian rebel fighting with atheists...

For thousands of years people BELIVED, that world is just a big flat surface and you could even fall off of it. Nowdays we are allready starting to learn something about the universe.

It is just a matter of time, when "science" (Which is just a theory) can explain whats beyond our universe (the same way "Science" is trying to find out, what electrons, neutrons and protons are made of)

Maybe there are many universums, that will form somekind of fraction from a "bigger matter"

or there just isn't nothing...

People just can't (yet) comprehend that nothing. That emptyness.

And some of your questions are just ridiculous, it's like asking If there is no god, why can't we have 10 feet carrots?

I like the question "what at the end of the universe" because it just shows complete lack of knowledge of the big bang and expansion.

the big bang is not an explosion like you might think from the name of it. the big bang is merely an expansion of space. the important thing is that space ITSELF is expanding. it is not expanding INTO something...because space (the universe blablabla) is EVERYTHING. there is nothing beyond it, because there is no other side!

of course, in the end this is a theory and there are certain flaws in it, but if you're going to complain about the big bang, at least know whats actually going on.

btw. i'm not a 15 year old athiest. I'm a 21 year old athiest. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

[This message has been edited by Zombi (edited 09-05-2005).]

sawed off pump, is a 13 year old that got raped by the priest and is trying to get others raped so he isnt alone, look how stupid he is in this tread.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum7/HTML/016192.html

oh, and by the way why the fuck do you want to murdur innocent people if you belive in god, jesus christ you one stupid retard.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

most athiest are dumbass highschool kids trying to be rebels. so if you dont believe in god, answer these 2 simple questions:

if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, because nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite. so whats at the end? how can it just be nothing? hint: dont give me that "it goes in a loop" shit. scientist talk thereselves in circles with that, but cant answer the question: "whats outside of this loop"?

and according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff. but what was here before the stars? before the planets? what created space? how did space get here? what would it look like without space?



the point is, something cant come from nothing. there had to be something that was always here. if gas created space and the universe, where did the gas come from, or dust or whatever. there is no answer. you want to laugh at how "uncool" religious people sound saying that god is the reason for us being here, but your the dumb ones because you cant acknowlege that there are things as humans we cant understand. we cant understand the concept of infinity.

so please, you intellegent 16 year olds, tell me the answers, and i'll quit believing in god right now. since you want to act like you know everything, answer those simple questions.





sawed_off_pump, your hipocracy is exceeded only by your arrogance.

First, let me tell you, I am no athiest. I am agnostic. Agnosticism is the belief that nothing is or can be known about the existance or nonexistance of god.



Philosophers have debated since the dawn of time whether or not there is a god, and the ONLY thing that they have concluded is that it is impossible to know whether god exists. Even with todays sciences it is impossible to prove or disprove anything relating to god.

I know you may not see it, but your argument is just as arrogant as the "highschool athiest's" argument is. You tell the athiests to disprove god? Then first you must prove god yourself. All you have proven is that you are stupid.

Infinity is a concept that can't be rendered by the human brain. You say, "if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever..."

Hey, more arrogance... Since when were you a fucking mathematician? Isn't it JUST as possible that the universe has been continuously expanding/collapsing in a series of infinite big-bangs?

My point is, both arguments are flawed. There is no way of finding out if this supernatural force you call god exists or doesn't exist.

All of the major world religions today stem off of the same principle theories. How has religion benefited mankind? Well, if you consider constant warring between opposing religions a benefit, then religion is one of the main benefactors to mankind.

Man created god. God created man. Man created god. This whole argument pisses me the fuck off because both sides of the spectrum are flawed. I used to consider myself an athiest because I thought it was more "probable" that god didn't exist... but then it dawned on me, where and what the fuck was I basing these alleged "probabilities" on? The fact is, there is no probability of god, and there never will be.

quote:Originally posted by CitrusHigh:



For example, and this comes from a website called www.aboundingjoy.com/beetle/htm: (http://www.aboundingjoy.com/beetle/htm:)

"The bombardier beetle is a small insect that is armed with a shockingly impressive defense system. Whenever threatened by an enemy attack, this spirited little beetle blasts irritating and odious gases, which are at 212 degrees F. out from two tail pipes right into the unfortunate face of the would be aggressor.

"Dr. Wermann Schildknecht, a German chemist, studied the bombardier beetle to find out how he accomplishes this impressive chemical feat. He learned that the beetle makes his explosive by mixing together two very dangerous chemicals (hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide). In addition to these two chemicals, this clever little beetle adds another type of chemical known as an inhibitor. The inhibitor prevents the chemicals from blowing up and enables the beetle to store the chemicals indefinitely.

"Whenever our beetle friend is approached by a predator, such as a frog, he squirts the stored chemicals into the two combustion tubes, and at precisely the right moment he adds another chemical (an antiinhibitor). This knocks out the inhibitor, and a violent explosion occurs right in the face of the poor attacker.

"Could such a marvelous and complex mechanism have evolved piecemeal over millions of years? The evolutionist is forced to respond with a somewhat sheepish "yes," but a brief consideration of this opinion will reveal its preposterous nature.

"According to evolutionary "thinking" there must have been thousands of generations of beetles improperly mixing these hazardous chemicals in fatal evolutionary experiments, blowing themselves to pieces. Eventually. we are assured, they arrived at the magic formula, but what about the development of the inhibitor? There is no need to evolve an inhibitor unless you already have the two chemicals you are trying to inhibit. On the other hand. if you already have the two chemicals without the inhibitor, it is already too late, for you have just blown yourself up. Obviously, such an arrangement would never arise apart from intelligent foresight and planning. Nevertheless, let us assume that our little beetle friend somehow managed to simultaneously develop the two chemicals along with the all important inhibitor. The resultant solution would offer no benefit at all to the beetle, for it would just sit there as a harmless concoction. To be of any value to the beetle, the antiinhibitor must he added to the solution. So, once again, for thousands of generations we are supposed to believe that these poor beetles mixed and stored these chemicals for no particular reason or advantage until finally, the anti inhibitor was perfected. Now he is really getting somewhere! With the antiinhibitor developed he can now blow himself to pieces, frustrating the efforts of the hungry predator who wants to eat him. Ah yes. he still needs to evolve the two combustion tubes, and a precision communications and timing network to control and adjust the critical direction and timing of the explosion. So, here we go again; for thousands of generations these carefree little beetles went around celebrating the 4th of July by blowing themselves to pieces until finally they mastered their new found powers.

Here you go, you genius.

Bombardier beetle evolution (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB310.html)

Guess how long that took? 5 seconds. I googled beetle + evolution.

Next time try thinking.

quote:Originally posted by CitrusHigh:

Others, including but definately not limited to, Paradise lost and Sawed off have said some things that seem astoundingly backwards.

Elaborate?

quote:For example, and this comes from a website: *lengthy article that has already been refuted numerous times*

See elfstone's post.



[This message has been edited by Paradise Lost (edited 09-05-2005).]

OMG GUYS!!! Its beautiful me and my friends were debating about this on my roof last night for about 5 hours and came to one conclusion... The somthing and the nothing are the same... Ok think of it this way, how many numbers are there between 0 and 1? infinite. But, if you count forever you WILL get there. Butm, it being infinite also means you can NEVER get there. Here is another example: Think of a penny. It has 2 sides. One side of the penny signifies something and the other side of the penny signifies nothing. Now they meet in the middle and are one. You have as much nothing as you do something. Also another example: Material things matter to us why: we are here, tangible, real. Ok thats short term when the something, us, is existing. Now if you look at the big grand scheme of things, a life means nothing. A human life is but a dot in the over all tangle of how everything works. This is our theory.



[This message has been edited by SOTChainfire (edited 09-05-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

most athiest are dumbass highschool kids trying to be rebels. so if you dont believe in god, answer these 2 simple questions:

if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, because nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite. so whats at the end? how can it just be nothing? hint: dont give me that "it goes in a loop" shit. scientist talk thereselves in circles with that, but cant answer the question: "whats outside of this loop"?

and according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff. but what was here before the stars? before the planets? what created space? how did space get here? what would it look like without space?



the point is, something cant come from nothing. there had to be something that was always here. if gas created space and the universe, where did the gas come from, or dust or whatever. there is no answer. you want to laugh at how "uncool" religious people sound saying that god is the reason for us being here, but your the dumb ones because you cant acknowlege that there are things as humans we cant understand. we cant understand the concept of infinity.

so please, you intellegent 16 year olds, tell me the answers, and i'll quit believing in god right now. since you want to act like you know everything, answer those simple questions.



read the book a brief history of time by steven hawking... im sorry if i spelt his first name wrong... but that book explains many theories on the formation of the universe and such.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

most athiest are dumbass highschool kids trying to be rebels. so if you dont believe in god, answer these 2 simple questions:

if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, because nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite. so whats at the end? how can it just be nothing? hint: dont give me that "it goes in a loop" shit. scientist talk thereselves in circles with that, but cant answer the question: "whats outside of this loop"?

and according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff. but what was here before the stars? before the planets? what created space? how did space get here? what would it look like without space?



the point is, something cant come from nothing. there had to be something that was always here. if gas created space and the universe, where did the gas come from, or dust or whatever. there is no answer. you want to laugh at how "uncool" religious people sound saying that god is the reason for us being here, but your the dumb ones because you cant acknowlege that there are things as humans we cant understand. we cant understand the concept of infinity.

so please, you intellegent 16 year olds, tell me the answers, and i'll quit believing in god right now. since you want to act like you know everything, answer those simple questions.



Well I'm an Agnostic because I believe it is ignorant in a sense to claim there is a god or that there is not a god because when you come right down to it know one knows and know one will ever know for sure.

But, I think I'd have to answer all of your questions here with some questions of my own, "If the is a 'God' where in the hell did 'God' come from?" or even better, "What was there before 'God'?"

Drawing a blank? Exactly what I thought, I might not be able to prove that there isn't a 'God' but you sure as hell can't prove that there is one.

You wasted you time and everyone elses asking completely pointless questions.

ok first of all, if god has always existed that there is proof that the universe is a loop. the reason being because if the universe as we know it had all started at a finite time, also explained as started at one point in time that means that the universe has a finite end. If the big bang did occur at a finite time, then there is a point in time where the universe WILL collapse in on itself. This cannot be disputed. So if god has always existed as previously stated, that means that the universe is in a loop because he will always exist. But I do see the errors of my argument that god may have started the big bang so then that would throw this entire argument out the window, but if he did do that then that would mean that everything that christians believe in would have to be changed... or i dont know if this makes any sense... im really tired right now and i have to start going back to school tomorrow.

cheers

Ok, first of all atheism as a temporary state can actually be quite therapeutic and often brings people closer to god. St. Augustine went through the rejection of god.

"Lord make me chaste, but not yet" St. Augustine.

Reguardless of what I just said noone needs to prove their faith or lack thereof to you. Mmmkay, Pompous (shit) pump?

Oh, and huff some raid. If you use some Earth Options maybe you'll get closer to the divine mother.

This is a great discussion to have but as far as sitting here and arguing it, this debate has gone on for thousands of years noone will ever prove god to exist nor prove it doesn't. If you get some kind of satisfaction by believing in god good for you. Humans have turned to "gods" to answer questions that can't be answered since humans were here.

Aah, yes. The Bombadier beetle debacle.

But I have better:

Organisms that Look Designed (http://www.winace.andkon.com/designed_organisms/)

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 09-09-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

Organisms that Look Designed (http://www.winace.andkon.com/designed_organisms/)



Great read. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Bacterial colonies can be contaminated; similarities can be explained by similar design; computer simulations can be rigged; at least some fossils are likely planted by Satan; and finally, there's nothing preventing God from creating an IG system here or there through evolution.

[This message has been edited by Paradise Lost (edited 09-09-2005).]

quote:Mange. This (unrelated) condition is caused by a subcutaneous mite. God appears to have been doubly thorough here

Nice site Paradise http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

Great read.

maybe if it werent incredibly and blatantly biased and said anything not retarded.

quote:Originally posted by Adorkable:

Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

Great read.

maybe if it werent incredibly and blatantly biased and said anything not retarded.

Heh heh you said nothing not reterded wich doent make very much sense, Unfortunatley I agree with what your TRYING to say

quote:Originally posted by Adorkable:

maybe if it werent incredibly and blatantly biased and said anything not retarded.

It's a satire.

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 09-10-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

It's a satire.

Whew, I thought only Dark Magneto and I would get it.

I didn't at first, but then it got stranger and stranger and I started to get suspicious... http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by HarryBalzak:

Well I'm an Agnostic because I believe it is ignorant in a sense to claim there is a god or that there is not a god because when you come right down to it know one knows and know one will ever know for sure.

But, I think I'd have to answer all of your questions here with some questions of my own, "If the is a 'God' where in the hell did 'God' come from?" or even better, "What was there before 'God'?"

Drawing a blank? Exactly what I thought, I might not be able to prove that there isn't a 'God' but you sure as hell can't prove that there is one.

You wasted you time and everyone elses asking completely pointless questions.

Thats pretty much exactly what I was going to say. The topic creator may as well be asking the question 'Could god make a burrito so hot he himself can not eat it?'

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:



the point is, something cant come from nothing.

Haven't you ever heard of an atom?

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:



and according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff. but what was here before the stars?

Nothing, dumbass.

And your expecting us to prove far more then this god of your's has, you think anyone could pull shit like the bible and start anew religion now? no. I wish i coudl go back in type and smack jessus. You do realize theres more than just our universe, and probably more life?And who says god ends our universe? For all we know there could b a black whole surrounding whatever the outside of everything is, now fuck you and go to "hell", BTW thats made up too, no go drink and get layed for once you useless chistian.

And i hate to come out of no where in this arguement, and i do love this forum so it wont happen again. But in his first post did eh not say that nothing is infinit when talking about the universe? Then in his second post say that god is infinit? good job.

[This message has been edited by PossesedSmurf (edited 09-10-2005).]

Sawn of pump is a dumbass

All we can do is theorize about how the universe was created, unless you're a sollipsist in which cae the only thing that was created is you

He's not going to reply. He's had his shit ruined.

quote:

Dr. Behe (begrudgingly) puts forth a rock-solid scriptural case that the God of the Bible could not have created these flowers. While the other organisms listed here have dramatic precedent in the plagues, devastations, etc. of both Old and New Testaments, a flower specifically designed to promote kinky, cross-species sex is out of the question.

Gahahah funny shit. Great find http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:whats at the end of the universe? and once again, dont give me that loop bullshit. if you believe that, tell me whats outside of the loop. it cant just end. but according to earths math, it cant not end, because according to 15 year old genious athiest like yourself, infinity doesnt exist.

I'm an atheist, and I can tell you for certain that infinity does exist. For example, there is a infinite number of numbers! You'd need infinite energy to reach the speed of light. There are an infinite number of points in spacetime between me and my computer screen.

We'll never know what there was before whatever is the earliest event we know about, or after the last event we predict, but that's no reason to go making up nonsensical beings. Science provides facts, and admits what it just... doesn't know. Religion provides stories for those afraid of the unknown.

Anyway, a cyclical universe isn't entirely implausible, there are plenty of closed systems that exhibit cyclical behaviour to be observed, why should that closed system we call 'all space and time' be any different? The question of how it got like that would still have to be addressed though...

A supernatural being having started the Big Bang seems a highly unlikely thing to me. There's no evidence to support it. I don't know why my socks go missing from the washing, but if I said that my socks go missing because they were being eaten by The Sock Monster you'd think I was crazy.

quote:By that i mean, because as humans, we are born and die, have a begining and an end, we are unable to comprehend infinity.

Yes we can. The problem is, most people try to think of infinity in the same way as they think of, say, 7. They try to see infinity of something. You can't have infinity of something, infinity is a concept, not a number. Infinite space means you can travel forever and you won't reach the end. Infinite time means the same for time. No real mystery. These fucking stupid spiritualists who ascribe something special to 'infinity' just because they don't understand what the word means should be shot. I don't understand what "atactic" means, but I don't try to worship it.

quote:Religion is just another theory

Religion is not a theory. Religion can't be used to make accurate predictions about natural phenomena.

[This message has been edited by sp0rkius (edited 09-11-2005).]

May I ask why you have to believe in something just to answer the unknown. I mean trying to answer it is alright but shutting down science just because we don't understand the whole universe is more childish then being an atheists. A lot of people aren't even atheist but agnostic. But because I am a mere highschooler I feel I have to fall into the category you put me into so here it goes. Shut the fuck up bitch you are a worthless peice of shit that is to stupid to look beyound a fucking book that has no evidence.

Ah, I'm glad my "Designed Organisms" spoof was well-received here. Every time it gets any publicity, I get indignant emails from the clueless, arguing that it's not really proof of God. One time, a whole board (SciForums) fell for the ruse, leading to many a good time as I posted increasingly bizarre replies...

outside that loop is another loop, its that simple

the universe is like a buble in an ocean of infinite depths filled with other bubbles

quote:Originally posted by Lynne le Fay:

The universe can so go on forever. Numbers do; according to many beliefs, so does life.

It may go in a loop, it may be symmetrical. Scientists don't know, there are only theories. Just as religion is only theory.

What's more, the Bible was written by men. The English Bible is not even the original wording, I believe it's the International Standard Version that's the most accurate.

Never before has their been a book so gutted so many times...and people still base their lives on it.

You say you believe in the Bible, which one?

Before the Universe was nothing. Period. There can and there can't be nothing. A new verb must be invented to describe what nothing actual does, seeing as it cannot "be" because that would contratict its very nonexistance.

I bet that made sense.

Now are there more loops outside the loop theory? I'm forgetting.

Lack of comprehension for things yet to be studied does not mean that these things don't exist.

No one has ever proven God exists, but there it is. I believe Douglas Adams put it best with Hitchhiker's Guide. I don't remember the exact quote. It was about the Babel fish and the fact that such a useful creature exists proves there is a God, in turn proving there is no God. If one can prove that there is a God, then there won't be because God is faith. Faith vanishing in the face of fact.

You're trying to find truth by process of elimination. I'll tell you what, that only works when you're trying to decide what shirt goes with what pair of pants.

Loves,

Lynne

The quote from Hitchhiker's Guide is this:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

And on a side note,that made perfect sense, out of everything he, maybe because that was put the simplest.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

you say "nothing" is outside of the universe. "nothing" doesn't exist.

If 'nothing' DID exist it wouldn't be nothing: it would be something. Therefore, you sir, are an idiot. Nothing is a definition for non-existance, in the same way that shiny does not exist, but objects CAN be shiny.

It's impossible to pass the edge of the universe, see beyond it, or exist outside it, because time doesn't exist out there either.

Exactly, we're talking about space here, not just the ground or something. If spacetime is the 4d equivalent of a sphere, that means that if you travel for long enough you end up back in the same place. You can't reach the 'outside' because in conventional physics the regular four dimensions are everything.

You have to understand that a physics diagram isn't a picture of the workings of nature exposed. It's an analogy. Just like any analogy, I'm sure there are plenty of other possible analogies for the same thing. It's like we have an answer and we have to find the question that created it - there could be hundreds of questions for any one answer. That's why there's nothing 'outside' space - our 'four dimensions' concept of spacetime isn't actually real, it's just a way of considering what we observe in such a manner that we can make astonishingly accurate predictions. For this very reason I think metaphysics is still valid, proper physics is entirely empirical.

Now I get it... this is a joke. These classic knee-slappers will go down through the ages:

"nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite"

"according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff."

"he's been here for ever. he is the beginning and the end, ie infinite. we as intellegent religious people can understand that there are things as people we cant understand"

"if anything, i would lean towards wicca, because they believe the universe is god."

"but for me to consider them smart, they have to admit there are things like this that a human brain cant comprehend."

"and you with this singularity bs. you probably didn't think i'd know what that was. it's just a math thing, it has nothing to do with what was here before the big bang. a singularity is simply an equation. was that your attempt on explaing time? these are reasons alot of scientist believe in god. because there is simply no other explination from the facts that explain these things."

THIS ONE'S A KEEPER: "like, omg, im being bombarded with complete ignorance."

""nothing" doesn't exist. their cant just be "nothing"."

"something about somebody with an IQ of 250-300, wich doesn't exist and a whole lot of other stuff."

I don't understand how I could have taken that seriously.





[This message has been edited by Joe_the_Dead (edited 09-12-2005).]

www.mchawking.com (http://www.mchawking.com)

I wish to say one thing a commet to this question:

What would it look like without space?

My comment is:

Where does the bible explain this? You can't just say, it's God or God did it, because that doesn't explain anything. And you can't say nothing because for you that doesn't seem like a suseptable answer. So, lets see you try and answer that, please inform me in the bible where it talks about this.

By the way, I'm 14.



Edit: That's just my 2 cents.

[This message has been edited by Ali G in da house (edited 09-13-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Joe_the_Dead:

Now I get it... this is a joke. These classic knee-slappers will go down through the ages:

"nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite"

"according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff."

"he's been here for ever. he is the beginning and the end, ie infinite. we as intellegent religious people can understand that there are things as people we cant understand"

"if anything, i would lean towards wicca, because they believe the universe is god."

"but for me to consider them smart, they have to admit there are things like this that a human brain cant comprehend."

"and you with this singularity bs. you probably didn't think i'd know what that was. it's just a math thing, it has nothing to do with what was here before the big bang. a singularity is simply an equation. was that your attempt on explaing time? these are reasons alot of scientist believe in god. because there is simply no other explination from the facts that explain these things."

THIS ONE'S A KEEPER: "like, omg, im being bombarded with complete ignorance."

""nothing" doesn't exist. their cant just be "nothing"."

"something about somebody with an IQ of 250-300, wich doesn't exist and a whole lot of other stuff."

I don't understand how I could have taken that seriously.





Can someone translate this from Moron into English?

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

[B]most athiest are dumbass highschool kids trying to be rebels.



False. Go fuck a bible.

I suggest if you would like to know the "whats at the end of the universe" question read prof. stephen hawkings latest theory on it...its actually a theory on black holes..but if you read it actually mentions how a black hole..eventually when it destroys itself...most scientists said well..we all know you cant destroy something..its mearly changed into something else..ot cut or or whatever, but stephen hawking brought up the well known multiple universe idea...that one black hole dies...but there are universes without that black hole to start with..so in theory...it didnt get destroyed...as it didnt exist in the first place.

Its all very very interesting and complex stuff...but if you read it and understand it..then basically its saying there is no "end" as such..but a multiple universes...and what humans have to grasp the concept of is...nothingness...its hard to believe theres a space with nothing in..because we would like to believe theres..oxygen atleast there...but..yeah anyway...another guy answered it with what mine would have been...your arguments for what created the universe of there was nothing...can be turned on you..who created god...who created the creator..and so on....and if he was..just....there....why also..couldnt the universe all of a sudden....just be there.

"Beyond the universe" is an irrelevant question. Beyond the universe there is no space, or time. Those dimensions simply don't exist. I doubt any human can understand what that means, beyond how irreconcilable to our minds that concept is.

Seriously, please read a bit on the subject before making asinine claims about spacetime which supposedly prove God.

alright lets try this, as if the topic hasnt been completely slaughterd. and sense it seems to matter to yall im 20 years old, graduated 2nd im my class with distingusihed honors ( not in spelling mind you)

zero divided by one is a perfect example of infinite, if any body doubts me go ask your little math teachers, the math teacher i happend to ask was my mother, who holds a masters degree in abstract/finite math.

secondly, you say nothing cannot exist in which i will agree with you...for if you choice not to decide you still have made a choice...correct? if there is nothing, and since you can assumably grasp the idea of nothing...which im positive no one here can...then there is something.....anybody follow...no? thats the idea, religion or science it doesnt matter these are all symatics, bitch and moan all you want nothing gets figured out and all that happens is you "talk yourself in circles"

and finally...who was the scientist you supposedly spoke with before creating this post...i am postive an 15 year old little shit in chattanoga, fuckoff usa has never met some one who can be called a scientist, maybe your family phyisican or in your case, family head shrink

not to mention the whole space thing is a fucking THEORY so asking a scientist or what not doesnt prove jack shit, i say theory becuase no one has proven it or disproven it, can you prove it? been to space lately? didnt think so.

on a side note im no longer atheist, i now worship a goat god named shiner bock who has blessed this world with good beer, brewed right here in texas...and now its time for mass...drinking that is

Uh, 0/1 is zero. It's not even an equation, it's simply another way to write zero, like 2/1 is still just 2. Mathematically, infinity can only be expressed by a limit.

Unless you're using some hippy, liberal arts kind of math where nothing makes sense because you use asinine assumptions.

quote:Originally posted by sawed_off_pump:

[b]most athiest are dumbass highschool kids trying to be rebels. so if you dont believe in god, answer these 2 simple questions:

if there is no god, where does the universe end? it cant just go on for ever, because nothing according to earths mathimatics is infinite. so whats at the end? how can it just be nothing? hint: dont give me that "it goes in a loop" shit. scientist talk thereselves in circles with that, but cant answer the question: "whats outside of this loop"?

ever take geometry, moron? lines continue infinitely. so according to earth's mathematics*** the universe can be infinite.



quote:and according to the big bang, gases, joined and alot of other stuff. but what was here before the stars? before the planets? what created space? how did space get here? what would it look like without space?

then what was here before god? who created god? how did god com eabout? moron



quote:the point is, something cant come from nothing. there had to be something that was always here. if gas created space and the universe, where did the gas come from, or dust or whatever. there is no answer. you want to laugh at how "uncool" religious people sound saying that god is the reason for us being here, but your the dumb ones because you cant acknowlege that there are things as humans we cant understand. we cant understand the concept of infinity.

and as humans, we cant understand why we exist, thats why religion began. ape.

quote:so please, you intellegent 16 year olds, tell me the answers, and i'll quit believing in god right now. since you want to act like you know everything, answer those simple questions.

you should just quit on life period. yes, there are many dumb atheists, but for every idiotic atheist there are 1,000 moronic bible thumpers such as yourself



[This message has been edited by impact (edited 09-20-2005).]

Man this is ridiculous. You put all this effort into writing these long posts about theories of all sorts... And you know you won't convince anyone into believing anything. That's the funny thing, people who like to argue about things usually have strong opinions, and people with strong opinions are very unlikely to actually change their minds...

As for my own beliefs, I'm undecided really... I was raised a christian but don't really consider myself a real believer at this point, I'm still undecided. Though there are a million flaws in the bible, some of the basic principles of it kind of make sense...

In fact I believe this whole board would be much more interesting, if the non-believers would just read the whole bible with an open mind. And obviously it'd help a lot if everyone knew way more about evolution and the various sciences...

The thing is that, there are people with brilliant minds who are religious, people who believe in science as well as religion...

OK, I just read most of this thread (took a fucking while...) and I can safely say the thread starter has been owned as a motherfucker!

Anyway, it's incredibly difficult to prove the existance or non-existance of a God. As soon as science finds a way to do so (if they ever do) the religions will no doubt find a flaw in it. Science has already proved so many things are not true (the Earth being flat, for instance) so I'm sure that, given time, there will be a proof of God's non-existance (or existance, of course).

But I would like to propose a challenge to those who are firm believers of a God. I would like to ask you to pray for a miracle to happen, one which we will all see. It should be completely impossible if there was no God, but if there is infact a God, then He will quite easily be able to do this(seeing as it's God...).

I personally think that this, if the miracle was in fact a miracle, not just something which hardly ever happens, or something insanely improbable, would give the religious side a bit more of an edge(at least until science comes up with a suitable explanation).

To me, this is simpler than all the string theory, dimensions and whatnot, as I'm not a professor (but I am studying physics).

Normally I wuold go on and answer some of the questions, complain about something that was said, or just something like that, but from reading all that, I think that the questions have already been answered, and I think this is a long enough reply for what I wanted to say.

By the way; I'm 17 and am not in the slightest but religious, I am agonistic.

quote:Originally posted by Choscura:

www.mchawking.com (http://www.mchawking.com)

"Straight out of Oxford a crazy motherfucker named Hawking."

Classic.