Other religious viewpoints are also welcome, but I was thinking of christianity.

So, in christianity, suicide is a sin which condemns you to hell. Is that, to *hell*, or just purgatory (I could deal with that)? And also, assuming that you want to avoid the hell, but you dont really want to live, would any of the following be still counted as suicide? Or can you think of any other loopholes to get around it?

1) get someone to kill you

2) get yourself in an accident on purpose (such as, go to drive drunk)

3) starve yourself

Now, I dont really believe in bible - but then again, just cuz I dont believe something, doesnt mean I shouldnt cover all the angles.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure suicide lands you in Hell. You'd be throwing away God's gift of life.

#1 is called "assisted suicide". That still ends in you dying because of your wish for it.

#2 is idiotic; an accident on purpose? But what I think you're saying is a car accident. Yup, that'd still be suicide.

#3... still suicide.



[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 09-09-2005).]

1) If someone else kills you it is not suicide, no matter what. To wish for death is also not a sin, in my opinion. However, i doubt any kind of god would look favourably on 'self - manslaughter'?

2) Very simular to 1 but in my opinion a far greater sin: if you decide you want to go out with a bang (such as, go to drive drunk)

3) Not suicide. Simular to 1: you are merely speeding up your psth to death.



On the other hand, there is something to be said for the point that a person has a right to die if they wish so. Nobody asks for life, but you do hear some horrible storys about the lifes some peoople are thrown into!?

If you really want to die then just take incredibly stupid risks. That's not suicide.

But the idea of Christians wanting to die ASAP so they can rush to their pie-in-the-sky just highlights the lunacy of their apocalyptic cult.

On a whim, I switched on the TV and turned to the Trinity Broadcasting Network (always a reliable source of unintentional humor). The televangelists were singing and preaching about Jesus, as usual. Playing the piano, chanting their hymns of praise, interrupting occasionally to give teary testimonials about how Christ has changed them - just like they do every week. Delivering the same sermons they've given a hundred times before, repeating the same arguments that atheistic philosophers refuted decades or centuries ago, reading from a book that hasn't changed in nearly two thousand years. One of them noted that she still finds inspiration in a particular song, even though they play it every week, over and over, in an endless, changeless repetition.

I don't think I can be faulted for concluding one of us is wasting their life, and it's not me.

I mean, what's the point of it all if God exists? If he doesn't, then this universe takes on so much more significance - more mystery, more excitement, more urgency. How did we get here? Why are things the way they are and not some other way? Why is there something instead of nothing? If there is no god, it might eventually be possible to answer these questions in a meaningful way, a way that actually explains something. Why aren't people electrified by this prospect? Why aren't they consumed by the hunger to know, to really know, not just to have a religious platitude in lieu of a real reason? For centuries the only answer to any of these questions was the trite and uninformative "God did it" - but now that we can actually improve on that and provide a better answer, why are there still so many people who prefer the old, comforting, familiar one? But then, I've just answered my own question.

Think of it this way. If God exists, and if his goal for us is to be saved and rejoin him in Heaven, then all he's done is deliberately create us apart from him and then set up a series of arbitrary hurdles we have to jump over to get back to him. Why not just create us in Heaven in the first place? Why create us at all? In the theistic view, our lives and the cosmos are just an experiment, a test run, a child's puzzle box. The things we do here and now have all the significance of a rat trying to find the way through a maze contrived by the experimenter. What's the point? To memorize a route through the maze and be rewarded with a piece of cheese? I refuse to believe my life has no greater purpose than that. Why is so much - an infinity, in fact - riding on our performance in this infinitesimal blip of existence in a lower sphere?

In fact, if God exists, how can anything we do in this earthly life be significant at all? Artists, writers, sculptors, composers, programmers and the like might as well just give up now - they're all one step behind. Whatever you try to create, it's been done; God's omniscient mind already thought of it, and an infinity of variants of it that are far better, billions of years before you were born. Where is the pleasure in creation if you're just reproducing someone else's work? Where is the wonder of invention if in reality all that's happening is that you're being unknowingly fed the tiniest trickle of ideas from the mind of the Almighty?

Likewise for scientists. If there is a god, science is not about the deep wonder and mystery of discovering the fundamental rules of the cosmos that has, incredibly, brought forth intelligent life that can look back through time and space and consider its own origins - rather, it is about determining what arbitrary values God picked for the things he decided to create. Presumably, if God created the universe there's no deeper significance to the way things are other than that he wanted them to be that way; if he had any reasons for those decisions, they are in all likelihood unknowable.

Some famous scientists, past and present, have said that their work is an effort to know the mind of God. But how much inspirational power could this really possess? Nothing is more exciting in science than an unsolved problem; why follow in the footsteps of someone who's already been down this road? Why recreate work that's already been done by another? Again, this worldview reduces the universe to the lab rat's maze. Dark energy, gamma-ray bursters, neutrinos, quasars - these are not fundamental components of existence, but little diversions God inserted into his creation to keep us busy, like Rubik's Cubes or blacksmith's puzzles. There would be no necessity, no deep reason for being for anything we find in our investigations of physical reality. Creation is here as it is just so we can figure out how it works - and whether we can is a foregone conclusion, because before he ever created the first atom, the first proton, the first quark, God knew exactly how far our science would go and what questions we would be able to unlock. We are merely actors in a cosmic stage, playing out our predetermined parts before a critic who already knows how the whole thing's going to end.

In fact, theistic belief renders practically every field of human endeavor worthless. Whatever we build or invent or engineer, the greatest triumphs of civilization and technology, is like ants scrabbling in the dust to build a pile of sand as far as God is concerned. Our momentary triumphs were known to him eons ago; our failures were planned out by him before the Big Bang. Our daily, workaday lives are just going through the motions, running the maze, a pointless and futile endeavor that will eventually be swept away regardless. When we go to church, we're just endlessly telling him things he already knew. What's the point of it all?

Under theism there is no good reason to be an environmentalist, no reason to preserve the sanctity and health of this planet or the life it supports. Why bother? God could snap his fingers and create a dozen brand-new Edens if he wanted, and if we all die as a result of our own depredations, at worst there will be a mass exodus to Heaven where human life will continue. If the Earth has any value under this belief system, its value is not inherent, not something it possesses in and of itself; it is valuable only because God arbitrarily said so. Likewise, there is no real reason why the planet needs or deserves our protection, other than that God told us to do it.

Indeed, in this framework there would also be no good reason to preserve one's own health. Why get inoculations against deadly diseases? Why wear a condom when having sex, wear a seatbelt when driving, wash one's hands before eating, or even strive to eat a healthy diet or exercise? What's the worst that will happen - you'll die and go to Heaven? Why is life valuable, why is it something to be preserved, in a belief system that views the flesh at best as a momentary distraction before the real thing and at worst a positive source of sin and temptation that may earn us eternal damnation if we succumb to it - and the longer we live in this coat of skin, the more likely we are to succumb, right? Again, under theism we are all lab rats running a maze, and the sooner we get out of the maze, the sooner we'll be rewarded. There's no reason to lengthen our stay there and every reason to get it over with as soon as possible. (Lest one think this viewpoint is an atheist-invented straw man, there is a popular religious song entitled "This World Is Not My Home (http://tinyurl.com/bsu3u)" that expresses precisely this sentiment.)

What better way could there be to rob life of its meaning and its wonder? How better to deny the value of human freedom, human intelligence, human accomplishment? In other words, what's the point of it all? I can't see any. Why would God need to create other life in the first place, being perfect and completely self-sufficient, and even if he did choose to do so, why would he create life so unbelievably vulnerable and limited as our own? We can't surprise him; we can't improve him. All we can do is tell him what he already knows and jump through the hoops he's set in our way, over and over, until everything reaches heat death and the saved souls in Heaven face an eternity of sterile, unchanging monotony stretching out endlessly before them. (See "Those Old Pearly Gates" for more on this.) In the end, it all seems pointless. What will have been accomplished? Those preachers on TBN can't really be looking forward to an infinity of repeating the same hymns they sang here on Earth every week - can they?

Why would God need to create other life in the first place, being perfect and completely self-sufficient, and even if he did choose to do so, why would he create life so unbelievably vulnerable and limited as our own? We can't surprise him; we can't improve him. All we can do is tell him what he already knows and jump through the hoops he's set in our way, over and over, until everything reaches heat death and the saved souls in Heaven face an eternity of sterile, unchanging monotony stretching out endlessly before them. (See "Those Old Pearly Gates" for more on this.) In the end, it all seems pointless. What will have been accomplished? Those preachers on TBN can't really be looking forward to an infinity of repeating the same hymns they sang here on Earth every week - can they?

Atheism, by contrast, frees us and reinvests our lives with meaning. Our existence as thinking, conscious beings becomes all the more mysterious, wonderful and significant without the benefit of a god to guide it and pull the strings behind the scenes. Our lives become full of purpose when we realize that we can set our own paths, make our own goals, that the things we do are original and significant and entirely our own. Science becomes a worthy enterprise again - once again we are able to learn why the cosmos is intrinsically the way it is, learn the deep reasons why things are as we find them and not different. Our planet, the cradle of life and our only home in the cosmos, becomes unique and precious, worthy of our deepest respect and protection, as do the countless other species we share it with. We can once again recognize that when we've lost these things, we've lost them forever, and if we destroy our home then we will destroy ourselves, and whatever potential we had will irretrievably vanish. Our technological and cultural triumphs truly will become our own, noble and worthy achievements to be proud of. And our own individual lives will take on far more value by virtue of the fact that they're the only lives we'll ever have.

Under theism, we are nothing more than rats in a maze, running out our prearranged lives through arbitrary predetermined scenarios to a foreordained conclusion, never actually making any progress or accomplishing anything except satisfying the unknowable whim of the experimenter. I say this view of reality is both false and depressing. We can do better. We can tear down the walls of the maze and set our own course, throw the puzzles aside and find out the real reasons for things. We are awake, alive and free right here, right now, and we have lives to live and the whole wide universe to explore. Who needs a god?

- Ebon Musings (http://tinyurl.com/7r33o)

"

I mean, what's the point of it all if God exists? If he doesn't, then this universe takes on so much more significance - more mystery, more excitement, more urgency

"



please focus on this:

WHY? HOW WOULD the universe takes on so much more significance?

You said:

Why aren't they consumed by the hunger to know, to really know, not just to have a religious platitude in lieu of a real reason? For centuries the only answer to any of these questions was the trite and uninformative "God did it" - but now that we can actually improve on that and provide a better answer, why are there still so many people who prefer the old, comforting, familiar one? But then, I've just answered my own question.

To say that all christians are closed minds toward the "hunger to know, to really know, not just to have a religious platitude in lieu of a real reason?" is rediculous...



shoot...

You're worried about hell? This is it, this is as bad as it gets. Life is painful, mysterious, and suffering is almost inevitable. Yet we choose to be born into this life as a stranger, because the experience is so unique (not to mention necessary for spiritual advancement).

The only hell you'll face if you commit suicide is reincarnation. We choose to be reincarnated, because this experience we call "life" is the most novel existance to us. When you are spiritually ready, your soul will not be reincarnated, instead you will move on to the next level of existance, whatever that may be.

hmmmm!



i like these:

1)excellent thread http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=6769&pagenumber=5

2)good read, even if a bit long http://www.ghg.net/redflame/rational.htm

I can't speak for chistians,but in Satanism giving up like that is severly frowned uppon. It's said that if you live a happy life, the after life should be similiar, but i think if your living life to the fullist you really wont notice what happends after. Giving up is stupid, and a sin, in a sence.

"I am so happy that I am alive, in one piece and short. I'm in a world of shit... yes. But I am alive. And I am not afraid." -Full Metal Jacket



Suicide is for pussies. Ask Ernest Hemmingway http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif).

most of those assume that people give up because they are afraid to live. Now, I agree that *that* is a stupid reason to give up -what is in life really to fear, save the death which comes to you eventually anyway?

But I think that more often the reason to give up is simply - it's not worth the trouble anymore. And it is hardly fair that religions concider it a sin not to want anymore something you never asked for in the first place. So it is not as much running away from life, than handing it back -altho that is ungrateful, it's hardly caused by fear.

<shrugs> just my two cents.

EDIT: it really pisses me off that in most major religions, you can slaughter innocent people in the name of your god, and you'll get to heaven to bask in eternal glory.... but you want to end your life, harming no one, THAT is forbidden.

[This message has been edited by LockeTM (edited 09-10-2005).]

Oh you fag. You just copied ebonmusings. GAY. You're a piece of shit because you can't even come up with your own arguements.

By the logic used in ebonmusing's little piece, it is pointless for humans to have athletic competitions because there are animals that are faster and stronger and more agile than any human can ever be. But we still do. Likewise for science and God.

quote:Originally posted by Sentinel owl:

Oh you fag. You just copied ebonmusings. GAY. You're a piece of shit because you can't even come up with your own arguements.

By the logic used in ebonmusing's little piece, it is pointless for humans to have athletic competitions because there are animals that are faster and stronger and more agile than any human can ever be. But we still do. Likewise for science and God.

Or mayb he agrees with whats said? Or thinks that himself? Or mayb thts just a better , more thought way of portreying what he thinks, and would give TOTSE a better idea? You should really factor that in before you rag on someone for posting an article.

I can and have come up with my own arguments on almost every single occasion.

However, I saw no need to take the time to retype the same points I was trying to get across when they're already there.

To the poster: Christians have this thing called the "spirit of the law." This means that yes, there are loopholes, but when it comes down to you and God chatting about your sins, and you say "it was a loophole!", He's just going to give you a look like "I'm God, you can't play that shit with me."

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Suicide is for pussies. Ask Ernest Hemmingway http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif).

It's widely speculated that Ernest Hemingway was diagnosed with a terminal cancer, and that's why he committed suicide.

quote:Originally posted by Sentinel owl:

[B]Oh you fag. You just copied ebonmusings. GAY. You're a piece of shit because you can't even come up with your own arguements.

If you had any experience whatsoever with debate and discussion, or if you (god forbid!) had the capacity for abstract thought, you would realize that using things other people have created is a big convenience--in the same way that it would suck to have to develop internal combustion just to get to the supermarket, Magneto is making use of something somebody else has done.

On another note, I can personally attest to Magneto's expertise, or at least, well-formed opinions, on matters like this.

I heard a rumor that when the Church was converting the Scandanavian areas, the newly converted were killing themselves to get to heaven faster; the Church then officially outlawed suicide to prevent this. What power would they have if all their followers were dead?

Anyone know if this is true?

Yeah, itz the new way to go in Scandanavia apparently!

How about jumping off a burning building? As in September 11. Suicide? Or just a really cool thrill before you die?

quote:Originally posted by Goat Saint:

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure suicide lands you in Hell.

I'm raised christian, and yes they claim you go to hell. But isn't that strange? God gives you a gift, but you can't do whatever you want with it.

We get free will, but we can't use free will. Or else we go to hell. Yeah, free will, cheers mate. Real nice gift. -_-

"There's a lot of different ways to kill yourself." - John Travolta as Tony in Saturday Night Fever.

*does a disco dance*

Cheers,

Lost

you are purposefully trying to kill yourself in some way. though it may not be a knife to the wrists, its still killing you, gods gift, and is a sin...thats just my opinion though.