As I'm sure some of you know, I'm an Atheist. I've always have my doubts in any supreme diety, and never really given a second thought to how it might affect me.

Tonight I got to talk to one of my best friends with whom I haven't had any contact with for many months. I've known Eric since we were in the 4th grade, and we were never apart for years. We were the best of friends; practically brothers (as I'm sure all of you have friends like that).

A few years ago I left town, consequently losing contact with Eric and what was going on in his life. Prior to my leaving he had gotten into drugs, been arrested and kicked out of his house, and developed certain psychological problems.

When I came back, and finally got in touch with Eric, he was a devout Christian. He teaches a bible study class, prays, goes on missionary trips, everything else a Christian loves to do.

(On to the point of this topic)

Anyhow, while speaking with him tonight, I confided in him (some things that he already knew) that I have always wrestled with the idea of God. "I don't want to be a disappointment to anybody, especially God (if He exists)." I explained.

Although I am not religious, I believe it is wonderful for those who find comfort and love in Christ. And if He does exist, I do not want to miss out. According to the Christian belief, I can not afford to.

Eric was and still is my brother, and despite the fact that we do not share beliefs, I enjoy that he has found his peace in life. He knows that I've been through some shit, and understands my position.

Well... tonight I asked Eric to do something I couldn't really believe, myself. I asked him to pray for me. I asked that if his God truly wanted me to come to know him, that He shall let it be known.

I'm sick and tired of many things in today's world. I know a strong belief whether it be misplaced or not, can do great things.

I was telling Eric that this past Saturday I was awake during the late hours of the night (as I always am). Awake thinking to myself about how I'm fed up with all the terrible things happening today. September 11th, the bombings in London, Hurricane Katrina, etc. When I woke up Sunday morning I turned on the television, and [MUCH] to my surprise it was tuned to a Christian station. The first words I heard were something along the lines of, "Are you tired of hearing about all the bad things happening in today's world?"

I was blown away.

Eric promised me that in one week, God would show me 7 signs that He is there, and He cares for me. I just have to catch them.

So on Friday, September 17, at approximately 3:45am, I should have recieved 7 signs of His existence.

I may not have always trusted God, but I sure trust my friend. I plan to post these signs as I recieve them. And hopefully I won't be flamed too much because of my display of an open mind...

Huzzah! I like this post. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Huzzah! I like this post. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Oh yeah, and why is that?

On another note, I'll have to admit that I'm seemingly more excited to see what I uncover, than I am skeptical.

Well I know that the "signs" will only be what I make of them, but the first one has already happened (not 2 hours after speaking with Eric).

I had been watching Nova on PBS. Afterwards, Mr. Rogers Neighborhood came on. I left it on, paying more attention to the computer...

Something caught my ear and I turned towards to television.

Mr. Rogers mentioned poetry, and asked the viewer (me), if I had been thinking about poetry. It struck me as odd, because for the past few days I have in fact been trying to rekindle my relationship with composition. A relationship which I had given up on until recently.

Mr. Rogers then began to recite a poem called "I'm taking care of you". Strange, no?

Later in the program a character was singing "This little light of mine" to a group of children. He also spoke of a spirit he saw in each and every child. This also struck me as odd, because I've never before heard mention of anything "spiritual" on Mr. Rogers. I used to watch this show all the time as a child, and I never heard mention of a "spirit".

This is a cool thread I like it.

Joseph Meric scares the shit out of me.

I'm not trying to belittle your Sign Searching mission, but I'd like to point out that if someone looks hard enough, they'll be able to find a metaphor or "sign" in just about everything.

Take the opposite of the God spectrum, for example. Suppose a devout Satanist told me that if I looked hard enough and was aware of my surroundings, that I'd see 7 signs that represented how evil was going to persuade me to join the dark side. Imagine how much could be symbolically represented to be the prophesied "signs".

Just pointing out that if you are looking real hard for something, you might impress upon your imagination certain things that sway you to find these things, no matter how abstract or inconsequential they are. We see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear.

I'm with AngryFemme on this one.

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

I'm with AngryFemme on this one.

You are correct.

Your mind unconsciously finds the "MESSAGES" for you. You only pick them up consciously and think they came from the divine.

Your subconsciouS: Now, how can I find something Godly so that billy can believe his crackshit religion? I know, go look at TV and music where there is bound to be something.

You: Wow, a message from god!

Angryfemme, what you say was kind of what I meant when I said:

quote:Originally posted by Goat Saint:

Well I know that the "signs" will only be what I make of them.

Trust me, I'm not naive enough to think that every little thing may be a sign. As previously stated, I'm fully aware that my mind is what [indefinitely] makes them signs.

Then again... Wouldn't that be considered faith?



[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 09-09-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Osiris89:

Your mind unconsciously finds the "MESSAGES" for you. You only pick them up consciously and think they came from the divine.

And nevermind the fact that there are hordes of messages (not just including the religious ones)that are competing for attention in your mind. Only the most successful memes will be victorious. And only memes who replicate themselves are considered successful. What an illusion of control we have!

GoatSaint:

If spiritual bliss is what you're striving for, I hope you get it. It would be interesting to hear you describe your experiences with it.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

GoatSaint:

If spiritual bliss is what you're striving for, I hope you get it. It would be interesting to hear you describe your experiences with it.

I'm not exactly sure what I'm searching for, but I appreciate your well wishing. It's people like you that make totse tolerable.

I still plan to post "signs" I come across. We've all agreed that they are only signs if you allow them to be. But what difference does it make? If you have faith they're signs from God, it makes none. It's interesting to pay attention to this sort of thing.

In the search for peace, one must always find himself first. Who knows how I'll turn out? Who knows how we will all turn out?

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

I'm not trying to belittle your Sign Searching mission, but I'd like to point out that if someone looks hard enough, they'll be able to find a metaphor or "sign" in just about everything.

Take the opposite of the God spectrum, for example. Suppose a devout Satanist told me that if I looked hard enough and was aware of my surroundings, that I'd see 7 signs that represented how evil was going to persuade me to join the dark side. Imagine how much could be symbolically represented to be the prophesied "signs".

Just pointing out that if you are looking real hard for something, you might impress upon your imagination certain things that sway you to find these things, no matter how abstract or inconsequential they are. We see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear.



There is only one way to find out for sure:

the 7 signs has to be totally unmistakeable.

That means the every single one of the seven signs have to be really, really a sign from God ie. 7 millions dollars going into your bank account.

stay strong my friend, religion is but the wool over the sheeps very eyes.

7 million dollars finding it's way into my bank account wouldn't be a sign from above. It would be the MOTHER of all data entry errors. With my luck, some overzealous and conscientious banking clerk would find it and correct it before I even got out of the country.

Epiphanies are not only questionable to even the weakest of skeptics, but they reinforce the mystery even further by only happening to a select few experiencers. You'd think if God was trying to spread the word, he'd make it more accessible to everyone.

its an obvious crock. im not going into it.

You're fed up with the way the world is? Try this:

Turn off your fucking computer and

do something about it. Talking to

imaginary friends won't help

things; if there is a (GOD),

wouldn't s/he/it be more proud of

us if we worked out our own

problems instead of begging to get

our asses saved yet again.

Well of course you're going to find seven signs. Or rather, seven could-be signs. If you look for something, if you hope for something, if you expect something - then you'll most likely delude yourself into believing that wow, what I hoped for really came!

Basing your belief off of something like this is irrational. The signs would naturally have to be things that might not be from God (otherwise, why hasn't He shown such signs before - and what are you do to with Faith if He provides proof?), and you can't be sure - the deciding factor is your subjective mind. If you really wanted to logically obtain a reason to believe, you would need to ask for specific things in carefully controlled conditions, so as to rule out coincidences and subjective reasoning and so forth. In that case, you would have proof. However, in this case, you're left with exactly what you would have had without this "test" - just faith. Not objective, and untouched by reason.

So really, I don't see the point.

Excuse me if this doesn't make much since - I was just given a drug which has made me rather drowsy and spacy. Claritin or something like that.

quote:Originally posted by Joe_the_Dead:

You're fed up with the way the world is? Try this: Turn off your fucking computer and

do something about it.

I hate it when people make assumptions. But since you don't know me, you have no idea about what I do.

I have donated to Katrina relief efforts. I volunteer some of my free time with disabled children, and just recently I joined a mentor program and have been spending time with a parentless 3rd grader.

Don't accuse me of complaining and doing nothing about it.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Well of course you're going to find seven signs. Or rather, seven could-be signs. If you look for something, if you hope for something, if you expect something - then you'll most likely delude yourself into believing that wow, what I hoped for really came!

Basing your belief off of something like this is irrational. The signs would naturally have to be things that might not be from God (otherwise, why hasn't He shown such signs before - and what are you do to with Faith if He provides proof?), and you can't be sure - the deciding factor is your subjective mind. If you really wanted to logically obtain a reason to believe, you would need to ask for specific things in carefully controlled conditions, so as to rule out coincidences and subjective reasoning and so forth. In that case, you would have proof. However, in this case, you're left with exactly what you would have had without this "test" - just faith. Not objective, and untouched by reason.

So really, I don't see the point.

Excuse me if this doesn't make much since - I was just given a drug which has made me rather drowsy and spacy. Claritin or something like that.

Don't worry, it made sense. Although, I thought Claratin (Loratadine) was a nondrowsy drug. But whatever.

Anyway, it is my understanding God will not perform specific tasks unless you already have faith in Him. It is necessary for you to believe in Him through faith, not proof.

[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 09-13-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Goat Saint:

Don't worry, it made sense. Although, I thought Claratin (Loratadine) was a nondrowsy drug. But whatever.



Ah, good. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) As for Claritin (just FYI):

quote:

What are the possible side effects of Claritin?

· drowsiness or dizziness;

· headache;

· nervousness;

· nausea, diarrhea, or abdominal discomfort;

· dry mouth;

· dry skin or itchiness; or

· discoloration of urine.

• Side effects other than those listed here may also occur. Talk to your doctor about any side effect that seems unusual or that is especially bothersome. http://www.drugs.com/claritin.html

quote:Anyway, it is my understanding God will not perform specific tasks unless you already have faith in Him. It is necessary for you to believe in Him through faith, not proof.

Hmm... still seems illogical to me, but then that's faith for ya. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif) If you already have faith, of course you'll see His hand in everything, right?

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 09-13-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Goat Saint:

Mr. Rogers mentioned poetry, and asked the viewer (me), if I had been thinking about poetry. It struck me as odd, because for the past few days I have in fact been trying to rekindle my relationship with composition

What does that have to do with God?

You will have to be more scrutinous if you want to seriously look for God's signs.

i think the skeptics need to loosen up a bit

surely God, if he does such things, will make signs for Goat Saint that have special significance for him, and may seem illogical to us? similarly, won't He make signs that will mean something to those with faith, and not to those without faith?

personally, i don't like the idea of a god, but i commend you for your faith and having an open mind about religion

quote:Originally posted by crazygoatemonky:

i think the skeptics need to loosen up a bit

surely God, if he does such things, will make signs for Goat Saint that have special significance for him, and may seem illogical to us? similarly, won't He make signs that will mean something to those with faith, and not to those without faith?

personally, i don't like the idea of a god, but i commend you for your faith and having an open mind about religion

My thoughts exactly. Why do my signs have to mean something to everyone? They don't.

And as of now, I have no faith. And I don't expect God to perform miracles for me. But yes, I do have an open mind as I feel I've made very clear. Whatever the outcome, I give myself props for being willing to avoid any skepticism.

Also I'd like to add my appreciation for the lack of flaming. This proves my belief that My God is one of the more mature forums on totse.



[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 09-13-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by crazygoatemonky:

i think the skeptics need to loosen up a bit

surely God, if he does such things, will make signs for Goat Saint that have special significance for him, and may seem illogical to us? similarly, won't He make signs that will mean something to those with faith, and not to those without faith?

personally, i don't like the idea of a god, but i commend you for your faith and having an open mind about religion

But they're worthless then. He is preaching to the choir, so to speak. The people who need the signs are the ones without faith... surely I can have just one miracle? Y'know, so I can avoid that whole eternal-torment bit?

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Originally posted by crazygoatemonky:

i think the skeptics need to loosen up a bit

surely God, if he does such things, will make signs for Goat Saint that have special significance for him, and may seem illogical to us? similarly, won't He make signs that will mean something to those with faith, and not to those without faith?

personally, i don't like the idea of a god, but i commend you for your faith and having an open mind about religion

But they're worthless then. He is preaching to the choir, so to speak. The people who need the signs are the ones without faith... surely I can have just one miracle? Y'know, so I can avoid that whole eternal-torment bit?

There is no such thing as hell. The Bible is a fiction book... you DO realize that?

How do you know?

Goat Saint, it's been a week, have you found your 7 signs?

I was wondering about that, too.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

I was wondering about that, too.

God probably got too lazy.

quote:Originally posted by Osiris89:

There is no such thing as hell. The Bible is a fiction book... you DO realize that?

Do YOU realize that you are providing no argument whatsoever for this claim ?

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

Do YOU realize that you are providing no argument whatsoever for this claim ?



Yea... I'm getting a bit lazy.

The whole notion of "hell" in the past was created as a scare-tactic to further evolve Christianity and to undermine Paganism. Guess who has the trident of Posedian, the hooves of a bull (bull was thought as a fertility/storm diety), the horns of wisdom (horns were signs of intellect)? Nobody but our good friend Satan (or should I say Shaitan - an arabic word for adversary). Basically, Hell was created to scare people and turn them away from older traditions.

Is there such a thing as hell? In my opinion, we are standing - living - and breathing in it.

well, i really hope you find your 7 signs, whatever they may be, however you may interperet(sp) them. i wish you the best of luck in finding your faith, or just being happy with being an atheist.

You seem to be happy/excited about finding God, and if you're happy, I'm happy http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) I would like to remind you that Christianity is only one explanation of God, and that there are squillions out there, and I urge you to look at many different sources to find a spirituality or relationship with God you're happy with (if indeed you do move away from atheism). To be honest, I'm telling you this because *I* don't like some of Christianity's ideas (like the idea of a God that would punish his beloved creations with eternal pain and suffering). Then again Christianity has some ideas I do like, like "love thy neighbour" and whatnot.

In conclusion, my advice is search everywhere until you find something you like.

Heh I myself have been contemplating seeking out religion once again. I was once christian, but then I got to this point where I prayed less and less, never read the bible and... The I found totse and all my beliefs went down the drain.

Now I've of course come to realize that the bible probably was written by people more mature then the pubescent losers who come on here, and have just as much credibility. So though I have a completely different and more sceptical mind at this point, I will once again try to look into the bible, see if I can find anything cool.

I kind of miss being religious, it was nice, believing that one day, all these troubles would be gone, and I'd go to another place where things weren't so complicated.

Also, when you're religious, you really really feel a contact with God, all the scientific jibberish people will tell you doesn't matter shit. It's like an imaginary friend where you honestly believe it's the real thing, and it can fill you with such happiness... It was like a drug. I miss it http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

^ You oughta read "Mere Christianity" by C S Lewis. He was a devout atheist the first 30 years of his life, following all the same humanistic philosophies of Freud. Then he converted to Christianity. The book is targeted for those who like the idea of religion, but find their intelligence stops them. Another good read is "The Question of God", written by a Harvard professor as a debate between the beliefs of Freud and Lewis. The book is slightly biased toward Lewis (some say simply because Lewis was a warmer, kinder person why Freud was often cynical and cold), but a good read nonetheless.

quote:Originally posted by B-Phaze:

Heh I myself have been contemplating seeking out religion once again. I was once christian, but then I got to this point where I prayed less and less, never read the bible and... The I found totse and all my beliefs went down the drain.

Now I've of course come to realize that the bible probably was written by people more mature then the pubescent losers who come on here, and have just as much credibility. So though I have a completely different and more sceptical mind at this point, I will once again try to look into the bible, see if I can find anything cool.

I kind of miss being religious, it was nice, believing that one day, all these troubles would be gone, and I'd go to another place where things weren't so complicated.

Also, when you're religious, you really really feel a contact with God, all the scientific jibberish people will tell you doesn't matter shit. It's like an imaginary friend where you honestly believe it's the real thing, and it can fill you with such happiness... It was like a drug. I miss it http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Meet Agent Smith and tell him to plug you back into the Matrix.

Hmm thanks for the advice Elephantitis man, I'll see if I can get my hands on those books... I'd noticed a few cool quotes by this Lewis guy in people's signatures, on some other site...

To those of you who asked:

Nope! Didn't find my signs. The ones I noticed were the ones I posted. Perhaps others were shown to me and I was too damn tired to catch them.

I've been working a lot lately and haven't been on totse for a while, let alone the computer.

I read somewhere on this thread (I forget who posted) that they were excited that I was excited. I can't say I was exactly excited or even hopeful - just in a kind of anticipation(?) I gave it the chance it deserved by not being skeptical. Yet, nothing happened.

If a God does exist, he certainly is prideful in that he feels he has nothing to prove to us. But I guess that's not the point is it?

Proof has been done over and over again (especially here), and when it comes down to it... Who gives a fuck about proof? It would seem 99.9% of our minds are already made up.

I have a feeling I'll be an Atheist until (a) I die and end up in Hell, or (b) God smacks me in the back of the head.

You know alot of times affirmation can make things happen. Whether it's through prayer, spells or goals. I doubt it's divine intervention

At least when things are in your hands, you have a more vivid picture of where things are going. Any follower of any religion might argue against that. Let them.

On another note: I'd like to thank those of you Theist or not, who showed genuine interest in this little... experiment(?) of mine. In my mind, whether or not I found God is not the issue. The fact that an Atheist abandoned his skepticism for awhile shows a great deal of willingness and maturity.

And as for now I do not believe this is a case of "if at first you don't succeed, try, try again."

On a side note: I start working all the fucking time again tomorrow... And totse will once again be one of the many things I think about while being at work from 10:30pm-7am. Working a 3rd shift job is an amazing oppurtunity to sort out your thoughts, and work things out in your life...



[This message has been edited by Goat Saint (edited 09-28-2005).]