As Genesis says, before eating the fruit, basically Adam and Eve were very naive, they don't know what is right (obedient to God) or wrong (against God). How can God hold them responsible for their wrong doing, they are ignorant! Is the tree a trap/snare setup by God to purposely condemn human?

Please explain.

They knew that he told them not to eat it. That SHOULD be enough.

But you know us humans. We're always fucking shit up.

It's really an analogy to the difference between man and animals. We are responsible for our actions, we know the difference between right and wrong. We are not running on instincts(doing what God TELLS you to do or not do.)

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

They knew that he told them not to eat it. That SHOULD be enough.

But you know us humans. We're always fucking shit up.

It's really an analogy to the difference between man and animals. We are responsible for our actions, we know the difference between right and wrong. We are not running on instincts(doing what God TELLS you to do or not do.)

At that time one could suppose for argument and simplicities sake that they did operate on instinct with some limited logic. They did not know evil, therefore they could run around dicks in hand fucking everything in sight and get away with it.

But remember Eve was able to reason and change her mind when Satan talked to her. Therefore both still had some logical capabilities, and i would presuppose they were able to use the same logic we have today.

It all comes down to accountability and the concept of good and evil. Let us say Adam kept saying "Fuck" one day. It wasnt sin because he didnt know that that word was meant as a bad meaning.

When he ate the fruit, however, he disobeyed God, and then knew the concept of evil. He had a direct command from God NOT to eat.

The same with a retarded child. He doesnt understand the concept of good and evil. He does sin, but since he does not know he sins and doesnt have a concept for it, God cannot hold him responsible.

I asked my Christian friennd to explain this to me. He said that although Adam and Eve does not know what is evil, what they did was wrong. One can be wrong by disobeying, even if the person does not know what is good or evil. As in I told a child to not eat a candy on the table, although the child does not know whether eating that candy is good or evil, the child is expected to know that not disobeying my command is wrong. Therefore, I can punish the child for this. This is what

The_Rabbi says.

However, many Christians, believed that Satan commited the sin of pride, when he rebelled against God. Similarly, "When Adam took and ate the fruit from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 3) this was not due to the temptation of Satan but because he already had a corrupted heart ('For when the will abandons what is above itself, and turns to what is lower, it becomes evil - not because that is evil to which it turns, but because the turning itself is wicked' (Hick quoting Augustine p.60)). " ( A quote from http://tinyurl.com/bvaxz) Therefore, in this way, it can be said that Adam is not created innocent.

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

This is what

The_Rabbi says.

I did not say he was "wrong," "evil," or anything of that sort.

Like I said, I consider it a story to explain the difference between humans and other animals. I said that he should have been able to follow orders like all the other creatures of the Garden of Eden. Animals run on instinct, and that's it. He SHOULD have been able to, but he couldn't. Humans are different.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

I did not say he was "wrong," "evil," or anything of that sort.

Like I said, I consider it a story to explain the difference between humans and other animals. I said that he should have been able to follow orders like all the other creatures of the Garden of Eden. Animals run on instinct, and that's it. He SHOULD have been able to, but he couldn't. Humans are different.



Basically, that's what you said.

Adam and Eve was wrong for disobeying, not because they sinned.

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:



Basically, that's what you said.

Adam and Eve was wrong for disobeying, not because they sinned.

Oh, Christ. THEY ARE NOT WRONG, AND THERE IS NO SIN!

Not as far as this story is concerned.

Fuck, I think I know what I said and why I said it.

Disobedience is not evil. Had god asked Adam to kill eve, he would not have done evil by disobeying.

One can not do good or evil per se without having a concept of what it is to do good or evil.

Besides, they didnt really commit a sin. They ate "the fruit of knowledge". There is nothing wrong with trying to reduce ones ignorance, and there is a lot wrong in trying to stop others from doing likewise. If anyone was doing "the wrong thing", it was god.

Either way, this argument is academic as far as im concerned, but an interesting one nonetheless.

[This message has been edited by darth_vector (edited 09-18-2005).]

So, the questions that remain are:

-Have Adam and Eve done anything wrong?

-If they had, what is the wrong part?

Disobeying or sinning?

It's pretty obvious they did, otherwise they wouldn't have been punished (at least, judging from Biblical perspective). Some people would argue that they would not have done wrong otherwise, as some have suggested, but basically committed a sin of omission, where they disobeyed God (similarly to the whole obeying parents deal). Understand that in most languages, the verb "to know" has several words including various meanings. Biblically, to know can mean sexually, conceptually, or familiarly. Adam and Eve may have somewhat conceptually understood the wrongness implied in disobedience, but obviously didn't understand it, as they ended up losing out.

Edit- I don't know a single Christian denomination that will say disobedience isn't a sin, so I can only say that's what it's interpreted as.

[This message has been edited by Random_Looney (edited 09-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by darth_vector:

Disobedience is not evil. Had god asked Adam to kill eve, he would not have done evil by disobeying.

What about when God asked Abraham to kill Issac(sp)?

The dilemma we have here:

-If disobedience is wrong, but not a sin, then why were Adam and Eve punished so severely?

-If disobedience is wrong and is a sin, how could they have committed a sin, when Adam and Ee did not understand what is good or bad?

quote:What about when God asked Abraham to kill Issac(sp)?



Indeed! I am questioning the integrity of god, not that of adam and eve.

Do you not think it abhorrent that god could have asked a man to kill his only child? That he intervened at the last moment is no excuse, such a request could not possibly come from an caring god. He did not ask Abreham to act moraly, he asked him to obey blindly.

The way i see it there is no virtue in acting moraly if you do so only bacause you are coerced by others. True goodness comes only from the desire to do good, not from fear of the wrath of god. Abraham should have thought about what god asked him to do; if he had done so he would have reached the conclusion that gods command was evil and should not be followed.

[This message has been edited by darth_vector (edited 09-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

What about when God asked Abraham to kill Issac(sp)?

That was just an underhanded trick done to test Abraham's faith. The old boy was going to go through with it, too! Then lo and behold, God's voice booms down at the very last second and spares Issac's life, producing a ram instead for sacrifice.

I love reading Bible passages, just for content like this. It strengthens my belief in the old saying:

God is a comedian (with a dark sense of humor)playing to an audience who is too afraid to laugh.

I am in agreement with darth here:

quote: The way i see it there is no virtue in acting moraly if you do so only bacause you are coerced by others. True goodness comes only from the desire to do good, not from fear of the wrath of god. Abraham should have thought about what god asked him to do; if he had done so he would have reached the conclusion that gods command was evil and should not be followed.







[This message has been edited by AngryFemme (edited 09-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

The dilemma we have here:

-If disobedience is wrong, but not a sin, then why were Adam and Eve punished so severely?

-If disobedience is wrong and is a sin, how could they have committed a sin, when Adam and Ee did not understand what is good or bad?

Disobedience to God is a sin.

Adam and Eve committed a sin when they disobeyed God. Adam and Eve knew that disobeying God was wrong, so when they did it they committed a sin.

Also, to whomever is talking about "evil". That isn't the point. A lot of sins aren't evil. Adam and Eve's actions were not evil, but they still would have been sins.

quote:Adam and Eve committed a sin when they disobeyed God. Adam and Eve knew that disobeying God was wrong, so when they did it they committed a sin.

Adam and Eve were ignorant and naive, because God made them so and wished to keep them so - hence the reason for the fruit of knowledge being forbidden. Just as a small child cannot be held solely resposible for their actions Adam and Eve cant be held responsible for eating the fruit. Their creator and "educator" must take part of the blame. To punish others for your own mistakes seems harsh at the very least.

quote:Also, to whomever is talking about "evil". That isn't the point. A lot of sins aren't evil. Adam and Eve's actions were not evil, but they still would have been sins.

Technically this is true. However in a less technical sence most people consider sin and wrongdoing to be identical. What kind of god prohibits things that are not wrong, and on what grounds? If god decreed loving your spouse a sin, would you bow to his wishes or decide "he" (ive tried to avoid that word) has gone potty? I know the example is silly, but it is meant only to prove a point. If it is a sin to simply disobey an irrelevant and unreasonable order then there is no wrong in commiting it.

I suppose what it comes down to is that I dont see the relevance of a sin that isnt evil - unless God is the mother of all dictators. If "he" is, then he isnt worth worshiping.

What are your ideas on this?



[This message has been edited by darth_vector (edited 09-18-2005).]

Disobeying god is the sin. But, what I don't get is before eve did anything shouldn't god have known what she was going to do? He's omnicient is he not? And even if he isn't he made Adam and Eve he should know the complexities of their minds and how it would react with the enviroment he built. If god was reasonable he would have had some leniency in Eve doing this "sin" or "wrong or whatever you want to call it. Especially because by her doing that wrong it just shows that god made her wrong.

[This message has been edited by sketchy (edited 09-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

The same with a retarded child. He doesnt understand the concept of good and evil. He does sin, but since he does not know he sins and doesnt have a concept for it, God cannot hold him responsible.

If you don't believe in God you have no concept of sin. Therfore you can't be held accountable for the sin of not believing.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Disobedience to God is a sin.

Adam and Eve committed a sin when they disobeyed God. Adam and Eve knew that disobeying God was wrong, so when they did it they committed a sin.

Also, to whomever is talking about "evil". That isn't the point. A lot of sins aren't evil. Adam and Eve's actions were not evil, but they still would have been sins.

So, Adam and Eve was punished for sinning.

But, their sin is not evil, it's just disobeying.

Satan is potrayed as evil, but the first sin he commited is the same as Adam's and Eve's---disobeying.

Either Adam and Eve were as evil as Satan, or Satan is not evil. You decide.



[This message has been edited by quasicurus (edited 09-23-2005).]

Okay...my take on it...was not so much that they disobeyed...but that they passed the buck...Eve told me to...Satan (the serpent) told me too...

They did not attempt to take responsibility nor to make atonement for what they had done...

...sound familiar?



[This message has been edited by outcast (edited 09-23-2005).]

adam's sin was listening to his wife...there's a moral in that somewhere..christian husbands take note :P

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

adam's sin was listening to his wife...there's a moral in that somewhere..christian husbands take note :P



Nah...it was a set-up. Like when you tell your child not to do something...then wait and watch for when they do... http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)