I did a thread similar to this on Satanism... blah blah blah.

I now wonder what you atheists believe: why do you believe there is no God? I myself cannot understand why you would be bent to think that when you dont have evidence that one does not exist. I can only conclude that it is logical to declare yourself at least agnostic.

So give me some logical reasoning here.

You're using a bad definition of atheism. I suggest you look up on the various definition of the term "atheism". You will see that it does not mean a belief that god doesn't exist, at least not necessarily so.

There is a distinction made between "strong atheism", people who believe that God does not exist, and then "weak atheism", people who don't believe in any God existing.

The first type show just as much faith as any theist.

to me it's all about how many religions have existed in the short time humans were here, Its just that humans keep changing there minds one way or another on some kind of creator. Another is the lack of intelligent design, I would believe considering predators have teeth for tearing and so on and so forth but if a creator was handing out attributes to make life easier for certain species then he would also leave out things that are worthless to us. for example (I may be wrong) but fingernails have no use whatsoever, Why do we have them? The only plausible evidence on that is maybe diminishing claws from a creuture we evolved from (forgive me if someone knows what fingernails are for, I was just finding one example to somehow explain how I think on the subject) aethiesm is complicated for myself to explain. Im not that intelligent but I do understand why I myself dont beleive in a higher power

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

There is a distinction made between "strong atheism", people who believe that God does not exist, and then "weak atheism", people who don't believe in any God existing.

The first type show just as much faith as any theist.

That it would require some faith? Of course. Just as much? Certainly not.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence; and if they are still to be believed without that evidence, then they require extraordinary faith.

To claim that a strong atheist requires the same amount of evidence (or faith) as someone who believes in an illogical being that has absolutely no material evidence supporting its existence and that would have to contradict a myriad of scientific laws based on material understanding (which would then invalidate any evidence found in the first place), is ridiculous to say the least



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-16-2005).]

Yeah athiests! Where is the evidence to support your lack of faith in something that has no evidence?

If you don't believe in my imaginary friend, there must be something wrong with you.

For most of my teens I was a "strong atheist", having spent the years before that as a very strong believer in God's existence, the Christian God's existence that is. In my case atheism was less an intellectual choice and more an emotional reaction, starting off when I prayed that a sick relative wouldn't die. When they died, I got angry at the idea of a God who lets good people die and ignores the prayers of others who believe in him, go to Church, and take part in all it's rituals.

My position against the existence of God became stronger as the years went on, but I think in large part it came down to two things: an emotional rejection of his existence, and the need for some kind of certainty about the nature of the universe. As for the first part, once you start actively holding the belief that God doesn't exist, as I said it's as much an act of faith as believing in his existence, because you're essentially holding an irrational belief about something that doesn't have evidence one way or the other. If you have any uncertainty about it, it's very unsettling, because it's hard to reconcile the literal interpretations of God's existence that Christians talk about with what goes on in this world.

The concept of the Christian God doesn't stand up to any kind of logic, there are endless contradictions. God is good and loving, and all powerful, yet he lets people suffer, etc. So in my case I rejected this belief in such a God, but the problem was that I wasn't open minded enough, hadn't read enough about religion and philosophy, and hadn't really thought about it enough to come up with any alternative theory of God. So given the choice between believing a corrupt and problematic concept of God, or not believe in any concept of God, I went for the atheist option.

Of course it's not as simple as that. For one thing, I think that believing in God is less of a choice people make, and more a sense of wonder at the universe around us, everything in it from the things and possibilities of it. I don't think you can have emotions and not have some belief in God (note: that does NOT mean the Christian god, or any other scripture based notion of him) be created within yourself. So trying to be atheist didn't stop me believing in let's say "God", but I couldn't accept those beliefs because to me they were entirely tainted with the notions fed into my mind by the Catholic Church. The more that struggle went on inside me, the stronger my attempts to disbelieve it through the typical atheist rhetoric became.

Atheists like I used to be are very much like homos who are in the closet, in denial even to themselves. If some guy gets red in the face and starts ranting on about how evil and disgusting gay people are, you know chances are that he's in denial, they say homophobia is a sign of that right? If you're not into something you generally tend not to pay much attention to it one way or the other because it just doesn't interest you very much. Well the stronger I see a person fervently come up with every explanation why God doesn't exist, who take the idea really seriously and give theists a hard time about it, the more I think they are in denial too.

There's also a component I've seen many times in "strong atheists", who have the attitude of being so much smarter than "stupid sheep believers" etc blabla, but that's usually just arrogant dicks who are insecure about their own intelligence/dick size/whatever.

I'm undecided about which category I'd put Rust in btw

O, this is original...

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

That it would require some faith? Of course. Just as much? Certainly not.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence; and if they are still to be believed without that evidence, then they require extraordinary faith.

To claim that a strong atheist requires the same amount of evidence (or faith) as someone who believes in an illogical being that has absolutely no material evidence supporting its existence and that would have to contradict a myriad of scientific laws based on material understanding (which would then invalidate any evidence found in the first place), is ridiculous to say the least





Faith doesn't come in units. Believing the existence of something that has no proof is faith. Believing firmly that it does not exist is also faith. There is nothing scientific about believing an unprovable theory, you can only say it's improbable, beyond that you're making a claim based on faith.

You justified why a strong atheist would have faith. You failed to justify why they would need the same amount of faith.

Again, to claim that a strong atheist needs the same amount of evidence and faith as someone who believes in something that is illogical and refutes all material understanding (the very evidence needed to support the belief in the first place) is ridiculous.

They both need faith, but they most certainly do not need the same amount.

P.S. "Faith" might not come in units, but evidence does. You need evidence for it to not be faith, thus the more evidence you lack the more faith you need.

The amount of faith therefore, can certainly be arrived at, maybe not in strict mathematical equations, but in a rough understanding of which claim needs more evidence. Certainly a claim that does away with logic, and does away with countless laws of reason, necessitates much more evidence than one that does not.





[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-16-2005).]

Rust you know something, I can actually feel myself become more close minded when I read your speaking.

First of all, I see your tactic of pedantically twisting a minor issue of semantics around and basing most of your arguments around it has not changed. I said it is just as much an act of faith to posit the existence of something unprovable as to posit the nonexistence of the same thing. There is a distinction, but I've learned in the past not to try and argue semantics with you, or you'll happily seize the opportunity to stretch a thread into a five page meanderfest.

Direct your energies towards solipsism, you might eventually figure out how to escape the steel cage that is your mind.

I have no reason to believe in any higher power, especially some magical cloud creature. Why should I waste my time going to some smelly old building on sunday or talking to myself when I don't know it's going to even be worth it. Fuck that.

You said "The first type show just as much faith as any theist."

If that is not what you meant then say that. Don't accuse me of arguing semantics when you don't know how to write what you mean.

If you don't write what you mean that's your problem, certainly not mine.

How fucking pathetic that you even dare change it around.

Bollocks. I was sure I had said act of faith

Proof positive that "semantics" is just a meaningless knee-jerk response. A cop-out if you will.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-16-2005).]

i don't see how it takes as much faith to be atheist, an object/person which has no provable effect on anything whatsoever either does not exist, or for all intents and purposes doesn't exist. i think it's logical to assume that God doesn't exist, because it goes along with all the evidence we do have, unlike any god

quote:The concept of the Christian God doesn't stand up to any kind of logic, there are endless contradictions. God is good and loving, and all powerful, yet he lets people suffer, etc. So in my case I rejected this belief in such a God, but the problem was that I wasn't open minded enough, hadn't read enough about religion and philosophy, and hadn't really thought about it enough to come up with any alternative theory of God. So given the choice between believing a corrupt and problematic concept of God, or not believe in any concept of God, I went for the atheist option.

Sorry for your loss. But seriously, if God was a miracle vending machine, nobody would die and wed all be movie stars.

Most Athiests have far more honour/virtuosity in terms of justifying their beliefs than otherwise.

The fact is that anyone who believes in God has to be asked, 'why does God ignore you?'.

Now, most God fearing, 'rational' people will say that God doesn't ignore us and that it is a matter of faith.

But this debate is an unfeasible.

It's completely up to the personal experiences of the INDIVIDUAL. So many things must be taken into account:

especially -

The religous beliefs of the INDIVIDUALS parents.



No one person on this planet can be 100% correct, in my opinion.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Yeah athiests! Where is the evidence to support your lack of faith in something that has no evidence?

If you don't believe in my imaginary friend, there must be something wrong with you.

I concur with comrade Viraljimmy.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Sorry for your loss. But seriously, if God was a miracle vending machine, nobody would die and wed all be movie stars.

Perhaps you could prove to me that God has done "one" miracle that cannot be explained by anyone. I'm a christian but I don't believe God shows himself though miracles. Frankly, if there is a God, why does he ever need to show himself? People in this world will believe in the supernatural regardless.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Yeah athiests! Where is the evidence to support your lack of faith in something that has no evidence?

If you don't believe in my imaginary friend, there must be something wrong with you.

Logical fallacy - lack of evidence does not equal evidence.

My God is nature - and the laws that nature abides by... http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I just don't believe in your God, why? There is nothing to make me believe in it.

Why am I agnostic/weak athiest?

Reason 1: Inaccuracy

Every doctrine has either: misinformation, misinterpretation, mistranslation, etc. How can I put faith in something dealing with my Afterlife when it's not 100% accurate?

2: Genisis Incorrect

Observers look at light from stars that show life billians of years ago. Additionally, dinosaur bones archaeologists discover show that the Earth is millions of years old. Now compare that to the Bible, which states that Earth is about 10,000 - 4,000 years old. Don't tell me scientists are in a plot to destroy religion and cover the truth by creating uncountable frauds!

3: Balanced Mind

I don't want to "destroy my left brain" - lose my logic and analytics. Almost every religion talks about putting faith and ignoring science/logical mind. That I think is bullshit. Only a religion that has a balance of both left/right brain is something I would consider.

4: Contradictions

It says in the Christian Bible that God first created humans, and then changes his mind and says first animals and plants were created first. Additionally, the old test. says God is wrathful while the new test. says God is loving. Any contradiction is sure to spell out "DOUBLETHINK". And no, I would never believe two contradictory ideas or opinions at the same time.

5: Prophets

Did God fax the Bible from heaven? No, so-called Prophets and witnesses wrote down the Bible. Ironically, it took about 100 years or so after Jesus died to start writing it out. What if the prophets wrote all bullshit? What if religion was a took in the old days to turn people into sheep so tyrants could have more mind control? Exactly.

6: Lack of Free Will

If God gave us free will, then, ultimately, we would have the ability to express it absolutely. However, it says that there are consequences for our actions - Hell. Obviously we can't have true free will if there is an obligation to follow rules.

However, I do not consider myself a strong athiest. That requires the belief of "no god" wheras theists "yes god". The only religions I would 'consider' is either Buddhism or Christian Gnosticism.

quote:Originally posted by Shadout Mapes:

Logical fallacy - lack of evidence does not equal evidence.

It's not a logical fallacy to point out that there is nothing unusual in an atheist not having evidence of non-existence since it is impossible to have such evidence.

This therefore brings out the point that it is possible for the theist to do so, which then makes their lack of evidence much more condemning.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

It's not a logical fallacy to point out that there is nothing unusual in an atheist not having evidence of non-existence since it is impossible to have such evidence.

This therefore brings out the point that it is possible for the theist to do so, which then makes their lack of evidence much more condemning.

So you're admitting that athiestic views have no evidence?

Also, I am completely unconcerned with who is "more wrong" here, the point of this thread was for athiests to justify their beliefs using logical reasoning.

quote:Originally posted by Shadout Mapes:

So you're admitting that athiestic views have no evidence?

Also, I am completely unconcerned with who is "more wrong" here, the point of this thread was for athiests to justify their beliefs using logical reasoning.

Strong atheism. That's the point that was made: that there are two different definitions. Strong atheists do require faith, weak atheists do not. So no, "atheistic views" do not require faith, at least not all of them.

Furthermore, the point was it wasn't a logical fallacy if it points out the difference in the need for evidence.

As for justifying the beliefs: for a justification of weak atheism, see Osiris89's post. For a justification of strong atheism using logic and reason, one need only see that since it is impossibe to have evidence of non-existence, the burden of proof cannot be reasonably imposed on a strong atheist.

In logic, with cases such a these where the burden of proof is impossible to fulfill, the claim is taken as true until proven otherwise (see prepositional logic, first-order logic, high-order logic, etc.)

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-17-2005).]

I don't believe there's a god because of all the shit I see going on around me.

call me perverse (and fuck you if you do), but the way I see it, any god who has created all of us- our world, our species, our environment, etc- and who would let all that go to hell the way things have lately doesn't deserve to be worshipped. to quote george carlin, "in any decently run universe he would have been out on his all-powerfull ass a long time ago" and "this is not the kind of work that belongs on the resume of a supreme being. it seems more like the work of an office temp with a bad attitude".

add to that a few drops of my personal philosiphy, such as people should tend to their own affairs and for the most part mind their own business- and the same goes for all spirits. when we become incorporeal and start floating through walls and shit, THEN I think listening to your invisible friends who say they died hundreds of years ago or whatever the hell their story is should be acceptable.

we haven't reached that point yet, so FUCK THAT.

being in a nice mood (such as my moods are) right now, I've decided not to bite your (the original topic starter's) head off for the small minded bullshit borne of the arrogance of his faith. if you can't fathom it on your own, trying to confuse people dumber than you, when you can find them, isn't going to help.

My nuts, your ass.

That's why I believe God lives in Disney Land.

What's the question again, you FAGGOT?!

To answer the question, even though its already been given.

No evidence and no need.

I see no evidence for God to exist, and no need for God to exist, thus I don't believe in God.

I consider myself a defiant atheist, at least in contrast to any of the major Monotheistic religion. I activly disbelieve that their God exists in the form they believe, and if I were proven wrong, I would still deny him, even if I admitted his existance.

Hinduism and Buddhism are kinda hard. There's really not much you can do if they're right. Hinduism is too cultural to apply to me, and in Buddhism belief is irrelevant.

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

Perhaps you could prove to me that God has done "one" miracle that cannot be explained by anyone. I'm a christian but I don't believe God shows himself though miracles. Frankly, if there is a God, why does he ever need to show himself? People in this world will believe in the supernatural regardless.

But God did show a miracle that cannot be explained by science, ressurection of a person.

There are those people that will not believe unless they can see. I myself am that way. I am becoming a wayward Christian because im seeing less and less of what God does for me.

But there are also those people who will not believe n matter what. Take Judas for example. He was there with Jesus his entire ministry and still sold him out. Even the Pharisees knew of Jesus' miracles and still did not believe.

Sometimes people get too caught up and steadfast in themselves and ther wn thinking to ever think of letting someone help them get to heaven.

But frankly, why do you think that God allowed Jesus to die and do miracles if it wasnt necessary to show Himself to get people saved?

Not only that, what makes you so sure that people would ever recognize any god left to themselves?

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

If you're not into something you generally tend not to pay much attention to it one way or the other because it just doesn't interest you very much. Well the stronger I see a person fervently come up with every explanation why God doesn't exist, who take the idea really seriously and give theists a hard time about it, the more I think they are in denial too.

Since I tend to get pretty passionate in my debates on religion, I feel obligated to comment on this.

I do take the idea very seriously. For one, my best friend is a very very very devout Christian, and that stands in the way of our friendship sometimes. Plus, I would just like to free him from what I see as dogma and useless clutter. So I am always on the lookout for ways to refine my debating skills and philosophy and so forth, hoping to one day use them on him. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) Another reason is that he's forced me to challenge myself a lot, so much that I have a lot more doubt than I used to. Finally, this is sort of an important subject here - it could mean my eternal life! I feel it's important to find out the truth of these matters. Note though that I don't have an objection to the idea of God itself, just to most religions.

Edit: And I see a problem with this thread, too. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Why are we being questioned about our lack of belief? Shouldn't the burden be on those who make the claim?



[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 09-19-2005).]

Why don't I believe in God?

Well it all comes down to semantics.

I don't believe in God as the concept is currently defined.

I don't believe in the concept of a sentient God that man can sum up in a belief system. Every religion seems to be based on a humanized concept of God that we can relate to and communicate with. I don't believe in that and I find the very concept illogical (no offense).

God is alien in its very nature to humanity.

I do believe in God in the sense that God is the will of the universe. The ebb and flow of cause and effect on collossal and stellar levels. God has no will God is will.

[This message has been edited by FunkyZombie (edited 09-20-2005).]

to make it simple and short, i havent seen enough evidence to prove that there is god. on the other hand, i have seen overwhelming evidence that has proved logic and science right, as well as the evolutionary theory.



if angels flew from the sky on horseback, i would believe there was a god. but i doubt thats going to happen =]

Because if you saw the way we forced out beliefs on other countries hundreds of years ago, you would see how much it is like nowadays with the muslim fundimentalists, it was like if you dont believe in our god then your not worth anything and can be killed or something, if you didnt believe in their god that was it, you couldnt do most things.

Plus, lack of evidence, because i wouldnt like the idea of a god who is supposed to be kind basically forcing you to believe in him or you go to hell...because i dont think if there were a god the world would be like it is, because certain types of religious nuts are completely ignorant, its their way or no way, they dont listen to reason, and because if i said to a christian say...i believe in little green goblins that frollick in the woods, and dragons, and tree elves, then they would say im crazy, but if i asked why they believe in god they would say....because of the bible or something stupid like that, what makes their book any more real than my books about goblins.

quote:what makes their book any more real than my books about goblins.

If you had any religion youd know.

I just find it hard to reconcile a God that has complete and utter dominance of the universe with a world where prior to a certain date there is no evidence that people were even aware of his existence let alone worshipped him.

Call me an unreasonable skeptic but I prefer science to unsubstantiated religious myth.I mean the world is complicated enough without throwing angels and demons into the mix.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

If you had any religion youd know.

Trekkies. Jedi. People can gain spirituality from the most asinine bullshit. The only thing special about Christianity is that there are alot more people following it.

Sorry if this has been similarly stated, but I didn't read everything...the idea just struck me and I went with it. In response to imperfectcircle's loss, and the comment made about God being a miracle vending machine...I have a theory on that. God is a capitalist, of sorts. The bible and every success story that can be attributed to religion is like hearing about the early American dream...The Rockefellers, Henry Ford, all kinds of success stories. Capitalist God creates opportunity for success, and if at all possible everyone attempts to achieve it. Moses, Jesus, anybody with a profound message in the bible had their opportunities and became "successful," if you will. We don't hear about all of the religious failures in the name of the Christian God just as we don't hear about the shitty inventors or the guys who just didn't catch a good break in American History class. Now I'm not voicing my opinion on wether it's good, bad, or otherwise that I view God like this...and I also realize that this is slightly off topic, but I figured I'd say it while it was on my mind.

Who cares, atheists are all going to hell anyways...

I've never had any reason to believe in a god.

prove one thing god has EVER done.

and i will believe

where is god?

what has it/he/she done?

why would god need us to believe in him?

why would he/she/it need us at all?

why would he she it need the universe at all?

why would he/she/it care?

god and the supernatural is just something created by the first early humans/sentient apes to explain things they didn't understand, such as fire, lightning, the sun, the moon, death, disease, other living things.

now the human race has acrued enough knowledge about the world around us to give a true explanation of these phenomena, we don't need to give stopgap explanations.

god or gods or the supernatural are like the appendix of humanity, usefull far back in an early evolutionary stage but now utterly useless, and sometimes gets infected(religion now only serves to separate people and cause wars)

Fuck whoever says my army of super-strong, invisible, intangible, undetectable, flying monkeys doesn't exist.

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

prove one thing god has EVER done.

-God does many things for his children, depending on how you interpret novel occurances-

and i will believe

where is god?

-It is not possible to speculate on that because he has not been found.-

what has it/he/she done?

-Created the universe?-

why would god need us to believe in him?

-The Christian God doesnt need anyone to believe. He just happens to give us a chance not to face eternal punishment for disobedience-

why would he/she/it need us at all?

-No man can speculate on that. Only God can possibly answer that question-

why would he she it need the universe at all?

-Same as above-

why would he/she/it care?

-Shits and giggles?-

god and the supernatural is just something created by the first early humans/sentient apes to explain things they didn't understand, such as fire, lightning, the sun, the moon, death, disease, other living things.

-What makes you so sure of that? Thats what i find so comical for that argument. Is that it must be assumed and cannot be proven.-

now the human race has acrued enough knowledge about the world around us to give a true explanation of these phenomena, we don't need to give stopgap explanations.

god or gods or the supernatural are like the appendix of humanity, usefull far back in an early evolutionary stage but now utterly useless, and sometimes gets infected(religion now only serves to separate people and cause wars)

The appendix cultivates bacteria which help break down your shit. Clearly it does serve a purpose.

quote:Originally posted by Adorkable:

Fuck whoever says my army of super-strong, invisible, intangible, undetectable, flying monkeys doesn't exist.

I also have such an army. Your ass will be mine.

quote:Originally posted by Adorkable:

Fuck whoever says my army of super-strong, invisible, intangible, undetectable, flying monkeys doesn't exist.



I'd pay good money for front row seats to a fight between them and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

I cant challenge an argument in its entirety because its general thrust completely disproves everything i believe in, so why don't i split the post up and take each sentance out of context, then i can pretend it never happened

Because god can not be scientifically proven, because god can not be researched. Because when people wrote about heaven being above the clouds they never expected humans to rise as far as to see that there is nothing above them.

I believe in things i can see, feel, hear or research.

It's called the burden of proof. You theists claimed there was a god long ago and have provided absolutely NOTHING on which to base your truths.

I don't believe in a higher power because belief in one makes me uncomfortable.

Likewise people believe in a higher power so they can suck up to him/her/it and feel safe.

I know the reasons for my belief are not exactly logical. BNut i can show why manyt religions are bs

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

Im such a badass.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

I don't believe in a higher power because belief in one makes me uncomfortable.

Likewise people believe in a higher power so they can suck up to him/her/it and feel safe.

I know the reasons for my belief are not exactly logical. BNut i can show why manyt religions are bs

yes, belief in a higher power WOULD make me uncomfortable, ONLY because there is no rationally understandable proof for such a higher power existing.

i would have to have myself commited to a mental asylum.

argon plasma: you suck at politics now you are sucking at religion.

My spelling sucks.

I don't believe in the christian god because the idea of a prideful, vengeful god that made pride and killing sins is completely ludicrous.

I don't believe in the jewish and Islam gods because I haven't been exposed to them



Edit: I also do not believe in the existence of god for the same reason I do not believe in aliens; I do not have objective evidence for the existence of aliens.



[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 09-28-2005).]