Yes, we all know that Mormons believe in Jesus Christ being... Well... Christ, the saviour, Messiah, Son of God, et cetera... But does this really make them Christians?

They call themselves Christians but...

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>The Church of Mormon (aka Church of Latter-Day Saints) is based on the 'visions' of a teen-aged boy in 1820 during the religious revival...

<LI>In 1823 this teen-aged boy (Joseph Smith) received another 'vision' in which an 'angel' named Mormoni told him different stuff which were compiled into a new holy book... The book of Mormon... But only God is allowed to tell 'prophets' what to write... right?

<LI>One more thing is... This 'Mormoni' is NEVER mentioned in the bible... How peculiar... Could this 'Mormoni' be Satan...?

</UL>

EDIT: The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest (but quite different) version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long?

[This message has been edited by Encrypted Soldier (edited 09-16-2005).]

Depends on how you define a Christian, if the only requirement is believing that Jesus Christ was their savior then yea, they're Christians by default.

What branch do they fall under, Catholic or Protestant... or neither?

[This message has been edited by Paradise Lost (edited 09-16-2005).]

as mormons believe that jesus was the messiah then yes they are christians.

and to be fair they put most other christians to shame.

by their fruits shall ye....

mormons aren't christians, mormons are christian rejects. the lowest of the low. the majority of them know what a pack of shit their faith is but go through the motions anyway: my guess is that in a hundred years, mormonism will be similar, if not a near-exact replica, of another suspicious group of unrelated individuals: the masonic sects.

as for why they are non-christians instead of simply dumber versions of an already idiotic philosiphy, the whole christian ideal revolves around one god, who is completely in control of everything. mormons have many gods who each father a world and populate it with souls, souls which have the potential to become gods and create new worlds also. therein lies the difference between mormonism and christianity: mormons believe there are many gods, and that they can become gods. christians believe in one god and strive to act like him (which explains their almighty holier-than-thou attitude but doesn't excuse it). if I were mean, I'd point out how that's also the loophole that proves mormonism is a bunch of shit (they didn't make any allowance for an original god!), but that would be un-constructive and critical.

To be a christian is to believe Christ is your saviour... (i think?)

to be christian is to believe that christ is your savior, and that christ IS god IS the holy spirit (think of the three natures of water: liquid, ice, and vapor). mormons don't do that, because they believe that their own good works save them, not any divine intervention. they also believe that christ was the SON OF god, not god himself (as in, christ was a seperate entity the entire time).

the mormons also constructed quite a bit of bullshit about ancient native american tribes- THAT NEVER EXISTED- that jesus came over to visit after he died on the cross.

I think I'll say that again, it seems.... vaguely important! the mormons ALSO believed that jesus came over to america after he died and converted several native american tribes to mormonism. and this is pointed to as proof of the legitimacy of mormonism, forgetting of course that the mormon bible was written in america, leaving the whole thing open to the possibility of being entirely made up!

yes, they're christians. they bleieve in christ, that he will save them, and Mormonism formed from a Christian

quote:There is one major super crucial difference between Christianity and Mormonism. That difference is that Christianity believes that Christ is God. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God. Mormonism doesn’t believe that. Neither do Jehovah’s Witnesses. So while Mormons and JWs say they believe the Bible and Christ, it is not a belief in God-Christ. They believe that Christ is a god – not the God. Christianity does not believe that submitting in a god will save you, only submitting to the God.



Another way to put it is this. Let say someone is choking and you and a friend decide to use the Heimlich maneuver to save him. You know what the real Heimlich is, but your friend thinks the Heimlich maneuver is: slapping the dude in the face with a tuna fish sandwich. Even though both of you say, “The Heimlich maneuver will save you,” you are actually talking about two different things, and only one will save that dude who is choking.

Link (http://decapolis.com/faith_/pages/SalvationofMormons.shtml)

[This message has been edited by theBishop (edited 10-11-2005).]

All that posted in a little over an hour.

Look, You can say a pekengese isn't a dog all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

Christian is defined as: "Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus." That about sums up my religion.

I'm gonna start with that rediculous ascertion that my religion is not christian, then I will move on.

quote:Originally posted by Choscura:

to be christian is to believe that christ is your savior, and that christ IS god IS the holy spirit (think of the three natures of water: liquid, ice, and vapor). mormons don't do that, because they believe that their own good works save them, not any divine intervention. they also believe that christ was the SON OF god, not god himself (as in, christ was a seperate entity the entire time).

So you believe that in order to be christian you must believe in the Nicene creed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_creed)? That seems to be a little closed minded to me. There are many protestand sects who don't believe in said creed, and/or do not believe that God and Jesus Christ are one personage. Are they christian?

Most of you have missed the point of christianity. Christianity is not about sects or particular beliefs, but it is about being a good person, it is about love, not exclusion.

Homer Jay, I had been meaning to ask in the "Ask a Mormon" thread a while ago, but it has since passed on and I am not a necromancer: Is the crock about becoming gods and starting your own planet of souls true about Mormonism? Because I've done a little research into Mormonism and ahve actually found nothing saying that at all, making me think it was crafted propoganda to stop the spreading of a similiar faith that could steal aprishoners and thus money. Just wanted to clear that up. Also, it is a major point of difference between current mainstream Chrisitan beliefs and Mormonism, so ti does belong here.

quote:Originally posted by Encrypted Soldier:

The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest (but quite different) version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long?

Would you like to put your money where your mouth is and come up with a link to ratify said ascertion? And I'm talking about a primary source not the rantings of some dejected, excommunicated 14 year old who just plain doesn't like us.

quote:# The Church of Mormon (aka Church of Latter-Day Saints) is based on the 'visions' of a teen-aged boy in 1820 during the religious revival...

# In 1823 this teen-aged boy (Joseph Smith) received another 'vision' in which an 'angel' named Mormoni told him different stuff which were compiled into a new holy book... The book of Mormon... But only God is allowed to tell 'prophets' what to write... right?

# One more thing is... This 'Mormoni' is NEVER mentioned in the bible... How peculiar... Could this 'Mormoni' be Satan...?

Yes, only God is allowed to tell prophets what to write. That is why God led Joseph Smith to translate the book of Mormon.

It's "moroni", not "mormoni", you just sound stupid when you say that. No, Moroni was not satan. Is it so difficult to believe that God had covenant peoples here as well as in the midlle east? Did God love only those in judea?

quote:Originally posted by Choscura:

mormons aren't christians, mormons are christian rejects. the lowest of the low. the majority of them know what a pack of shit their faith is but go through the motions anyway: my guess is that in a hundred years, mormonism will be similar, if not a near-exact replica, of another suspicious group of unrelated individuals: the masonic sects.

HAHAHA

How many mormons do you really know?

Of all the faiths I've been a part of, or observed over the years, mormons have the greatest level of faith. You'll find an aboundment of catholics who think that their religion is a pack of shit but still go through the motions, but you won't find too many mormons.

There have been studies conducted (and no, I won't provide a link, as I am too lazy and have too much to go over on this topic) which show that LDS youth are among the least likely to engage in premarital intercourse, are among the most active in their faith, and have the greatest chance of engaging in fasting or other forms of self-sacrafice.

If you really think there is a shortage of faith in a mormon congregation, go to any ward, anywhere on a fast sunday (1st sunday of the month), or speak with some of them and you will realize quickly that you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

quote:

as for why they are non-christians instead of simply dumber versions of an already idiotic philosiphy, the whole christian ideal revolves around one god, who is completely in control of everything. mormons have many gods who each father a world and populate it with souls, souls which have the potential to become gods and create new worlds also. therein lies the difference between mormonism and christianity: mormons believe there are many gods, and that they can become gods. christians believe in one god and strive to act like him (which explains their almighty holier-than-thou attitude but doesn't excuse it). if I were mean, I'd point out how that's also the loophole that proves mormonism is a bunch of shit (they didn't make any allowance for an original god!), but that would be un-constructive and critical.

We certainly strive to be like our God, how are you doing with that?

How do you picture the afterlife?

sitting on clouds, playing harps?

What do you honestly think you'll be doing?

Mormons believe that we will have an eternity to learn and grow. An eternity to become better. And with an eternity to become better, you'll eventually be like unto God, and will be worthy of having your own spirit children and your own world.

Even if we're wrong, we're still gonna end up in your version of the afterlife anyhow, so what's the fuss?

quote:

I think I'll say that again, it seems.... vaguely important! the mormons ALSO believed that jesus came over to america after he died and converted several native american tribes to mormonism. and this is pointed to as proof of the legitimacy of mormonism, forgetting of course that the mormon bible was written in america, leaving the whole thing open to the possibility of being entirely made up!

You really do have a lot of undue anger towards mormons, don't you.

Yeah, there is the possibility that the book of mormon was made up. However if you look at it critically, the witnesses to Jesus's deeds were long gone by the time of the writing of the 4 gospells, so there is a possibility that was made up too. It's a matter of faith. I have faith that the book of mormon wasn't made up.

Jesus didn't convert anyone to mormonism. Jesus helped his church allready established on the american continent (we believe) to prosper, and to foster belief in it.

Really dude, you don't know much about mormonism, all you know is what you've been told, and a lot of that is a lie. Why don't you gather up the balls to look into it yourself?

quote:Originally posted by Gorloche:

Homer Jay, I had been meaning to ask in the "Ask a Mormon" thread a while ago, but it has since passed on and I am not a necromancer: Is the crock about becoming gods and starting your own planet of souls true about Mormonism? Because I've done a little research into Mormonism and ahve actually found nothing saying that at all, making me think it was crafted propoganda to stop the spreading of a similiar faith that could steal aprishoners and thus money. Just wanted to clear that up. Also, it is a major point of difference between current mainstream Chrisitan beliefs and Mormonism, so ti does belong here.

Thank you for a decent, intelligent response, seriously lacking on this topic.

We don't believe that simply by giving money to our church and sitting in church every day we will become Gods. We do not use our belief in our own potential divinity to compare ourselves to God. We believe we are littlerally children of God. We believe that we are to God as babies are to us. A baby doesn't understand what's going on around it.

A baby can't possibly fathom becoming an adult. Focus on how voulnerable, weak and imperceptive a baby is. Now, you know that baby will probibly become a full grown adult, equivilant to it's parents.

We believe that we are the "babies" of God. We believe that we have the potential to become gods. As soon as we die will we become Gods? No. I'm sure it'll take billions of years of learning and growth to reach that level, if not more. However if you have an eternity...

Myself and my fellow mormons love our God. We follow him, we worship him, we abide by his commandments. We do not simply go to church on sunday and tell people we're going to heaven. We don't go to our religion, we live it.

It simply depends who you ask. If you ask a fidiest (one who believes only faith iss necesary for salvation) im sure you would say they are, Catholics would say no (at least the Magisterium would), Jews don't really give a damn, nor would anyone else whos not Christian really. Since Christian means "Little Christ" refering to followers of Jesus, then someone who professes themselves as such could be qualified as such, but then the question is, do they really follow Jesus, and that is open to interpretation.

quote:Originally posted by JewDude:

It simply depends who you ask. If you ask a fidiest (one who believes only faith iss necesary for salvation) im sure you would say they are, Catholics would say no (at least the Magisterium would), Jews don't really give a damn, nor would anyone else whos not Christian really. Since Christian means "Little Christ" refering to followers of Jesus, then someone who professes themselves as such could be qualified as such, but then the question is, do they really follow Jesus, and that is open to interpretation.

Catholics who believe that we're not christian generally don't believe that anyone who's not catholic isn't christian.

As far as the "salvation by faith" / "salvation by works" debate, here's the mormon position:

You are saved by faith.

However, those who truly have faith in God and Jesus Christ will do good works. If you believe in God, you believe in what he's told you to do, and he's said to be a good person.

A mobster can have all sorts of faith in God. A mobster can know that God exists and have faith in him, but he's not going to end up going where I am because he's a bad person.

No ammount of charity or good deeds will get you there without faith, but no ammount of faith will get you there if you're a bad person either.

Understand?

Questions for Mormons:

Question #1: How do you account for the egyption papyri which Joseph Smith translated into the "Book of Abraham", part of Pearl of a Great Price (LDS scripture)?

Since the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, archiologists are capable of translating egyptian heiroglyphics, and the papyri had nothing to do with Abraham. Rather, it depicted the burial of Osiris.

If you're not familiar with the papyri, read about it here: LINK (http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm)

Question #2: How do you account for the fact that there is NO evidence of a mesopotamian civilization in North America prior to formation of the colonies that would become the United States? This includes not only artifacts such as tools, but also DNA.

Sources: Source 1 (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-07-26-dna-lds_x.htm) and Source 2 (http://www.exmormon.org/whylft125.htm)

Question #3: Does it bother you that all the supposed "hard evidence" of your "faith" (i.e. the golden plates, the Urim & Thummim) were conveniently "reclaimed" by the angels before any impartial observer could examine them?

Question #4: Why does the LDS Church continue to use the King James translation of the bible even though Joseph Smith's translation has been complete since 1833?

I have many more questions, but i will stop here to keep it somewhat sane.

PS: i'm also interested to hear what your girlfriend's response to these questions are. for bonus points, what is your Bishop's response?

[This message has been edited by theBishop (edited 10-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Questions for Mormons:

Question #1: How do you account for the egyption papyri which Joseph Smith translated into the "Book of Abraham", part of Pearl of a Great Price (LDS scripture)?

Since the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, archiologists are capable of translating egyptian heiroglyphics, and the papyri had nothing to do with Abraham. Rather, it depicted the burial of Osiris.

If you're not familiar with the papyri, read about it here: LINK (http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm)

Question #2: How do you account for the fact that there is NO evidence of a mesopotamian civilization in North America prior to formation of the colonies that would become the United States? This includes not only artifacts such as tools, but also DNA.

Sources: Source 1 (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-07-26-dna-lds_x.htm) and Source 2 (http://www.exmormon.org/whylft125.htm)

Question #3: Does it bother you that all the supposed "hard evidence" of your "faith" (i.e. the golden plates, the Urim & Thummim) were conveniently "reclaimed" by the angels before any impartial observer could examine them?

Question #4: Why does the LDS Church continue to use the King James translation of the bible even though Joseph Smith's translation has been complete since 1833?

I have many more questions, but i will stop here to keep it somewhat sane.

PS: i'm also interested to hear what your girlfriend's response to these questions are. for bonus points, what is your Bishop's response?



1: A link would be nice about this, again Primary sources only.

From what I've been told the text is illegable, and the picture is dubious. Either way, it's a matter of faith. I believe that the book of Abraham is scripture and no ammount of argument from you will change that belief.

2: As far as the DNA thing goes look for stuff about that on www.fair-lds.org, (http://www.fair-lds.org,) great site for such information.

3: I'd like to see some "hard evidence" of your faith. oh, right you can't have hard evidence of faith, because that is counterintuitive to the whole concept of faith.

4: Joseph Smith translations are in the footnotes of our bibles, and in the middle of the quad.

Don't have any intention on asking these questions to other people.

I'd have more expansive answers, but something I ate with dinner is making me really sick.

EDIT: I had you move your questions to this topic because although my topic was created first, this topic got way more responses, and I'd rather not have two mormon topics going at once.

[This message has been edited by HomerJay603 (edited 10-12-2005).]

You are anti sex/drugs/red bull/pot. you automatically suck.

1. The pictures are clearly legible in the link. You can see all the pictures from which the book of abraham is derived clearly, and legibly. Your final bit that started with "no amount of argument..." pretty much sums up your whole approach to defending your faith. You're confusing faith with gullibility.

I believe God calls us to question our faith:

quote:2 Tim 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2. I'm well aware of the FAIR organization. Their rebuttle of the DNA/physical-evidence question is sorely lacking. The Book of Mormon depicts various wars between the Lamenites and Nephites. That means weapons, arrowheads, shields, etc. Kids find native American Arrowheads all the time where i live, why don't we find any Lamenite weaponry/tools? Once again ignoring the devastating DNA question entirely.

3. My Religion wasn't established 200 years ago. Maybe that's unfair, my religion could be false, but its harder to prove because its older. I'll give you that, but that doesn't make the case against Mormonism any less damning. And anyway, if my Religion is false, so is yours.

The actions of your Prophet are well documented, and they are not actions of a person i would devote my life to.

And as to the question of "Faith", literally, you are correct, that's why the nature of my question was not "EXPLAIN THESE THINGS!" it was asking how it makes you feel that there are so many examples of potential PROOF of Mormonism that turnout to be false, or conveniently "retrieved" by Angels.

Not to mention the dozens of prophecies made by JS that haven't come true, many of which WONT come true because key people invovlved are dead.

4. Fair enough, but if Mormonism restores "the fullness of the gospel", why cling to an incomplete bible? Its not like Protestant pastors preach out of a children's bible that has King James or NIV added in the footnotes.

"Don't have any intention on asking these questions to other people."



I don't blame you. I didn't ask my mormon girlfriend these questions either. But i also didn't convert to the faith, even though i wanted to at the time.

I know what it feels like, you have a great girl who you truly love and can't imagine living without, but there's the chasm between you. And you know its up to you to bridge that chasm. All the while, you're surrounded by genuinely nice people who are encouraging you to walk this path.

Adults who you respect are telling you this is the right thing to do. Some are even telling you your parents don't know what's best for you. They are telling you everything you want to hear and it makes this conversion feel like your own choice.

Except its a lie. And there's so many proofs of that, its just sad.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

Catholics who believe that we're not christian generally don't believe that anyone who's not catholic isn't christian.

Yup, just didn't think that fact was relevant.

quote:

As far as the "salvation by faith" / "salvation by works" debate, here's the mormon position:

You are saved by faith.

However, those who truly have faith in God and Jesus Christ will do good works. If you believe in God, you believe in what he's told you to do, and he's said to be a good person.

A mobster can have all sorts of faith in God. A mobster can know that God exists and have faith in him, but he's not going to end up going where I am because he's a bad person.

No ammount of charity or good deeds will get you there without faith, but no ammount of faith will get you there if you're a bad person either.

Understand?

So basically its not an either/or or to what extent, its both to the fullest extent. Right?

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

1. The pictures are clearly legible in the link. You can see all the pictures from which the book of abraham is derived clearly, and legibly. Your final bit that started with "no amount of argument..." pretty much sums up your whole approach to defending your faith. You're confusing faith with gullibility.

I believe God calls us to question our faith:

2. I'm well aware of the FAIR organization. Their rebuttle of the DNA/physical-evidence question is sorely lacking. The Book of Mormon depicts various wars between the Lamenites and Nephites. That means weapons, arrowheads, shields, etc. Kids find native American Arrowheads all the time where i live, why don't we find any Lamenite weaponry/tools? Once again ignoring the devastating DNA question entirely.

3. My Religion wasn't established 200 years ago. Maybe that's unfair, my religion could be false, but its harder to prove because its older. I'll give you that, but that doesn't make the case against Mormonism any less damning. And anyway, if my Religion is false, so is yours.

The actions of your Prophet are well documented, and they are not actions of a person i would devote my life to.

And as to the question of "Faith", literally, you are correct, that's why the nature of my question was not "EXPLAIN THESE THINGS!" it was asking how it makes you feel that there are so many examples of potential PROOF of Mormonism that turnout to be false, or conveniently "retrieved" by Angels.

Not to mention the dozens of prophecies made by JS that haven't come true, many of which WONT come true because key people invovlved are dead.

4. Fair enough, but if Mormonism restores "the fullness of the gospel", why cling to an incomplete bible? Its not like Protestant pastors preach out of a children's bible that has King James or NIV added in the footnotes.

"Don't have any intention on asking these questions to other people."



I don't blame you. I didn't ask my mormon girlfriend these questions either. But i also didn't convert to the faith, even though i wanted to at the time.

I know what it feels like, you have a great girl who you truly love and can't imagine living without, but there's the chasm between you. And you know its up to you to bridge that chasm. All the while, you're surrounded by genuinely nice people who are encouraging you to walk this path.

Adults who you respect are telling you this is the right thing to do. Some are even telling you your parents don't know what's best for you. They are telling you everything you want to hear and it makes this conversion feel like your own choice.

Except its a lie. And there's so many proofs of that, its just sad.

Bottom line:

-There may be criticisms of mormonism that I can't explain. All I know, for a sureity, is there is an explanation out there somewhere. It doesn't make me feel uneasy or restless that the "proof" exists.

-------------

-To play devil's advocate here: Even if mormonism turns out to be wrong, and I'm sure it won't, God will welcome me with open arms and praise my decision to join the LDS church for the immensly positive effect it's had on my life and spirituality.

----------------

-I've read the "prophecies that haven't come true" thing, and most of them are really stupid. ex:

quote:Paraphrased:

Joseph Smith predicted the world would end in 18XX

No, JS said God told him that if "he lived to be 80 something he'd see the end of the world". He didn't live that long. I think that's just God's sense of humor. How do you explain the prophecies that havecome true?Revelation and prophecy on war, given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, December 25, 1832. HC 1:301–302. This section was received at a time when the brethren were reflecting and reasoning upon African slavery on the American continent and the slavery of the children of men throughout the world.

1–4, War foretold between the Northern States and the Southern States;

5–8, Great calamities shall fall upon all the inhabitants of the earth.

1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.

8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 87)

--------------------------

-We don't cling to an incomplete bible. All we need for the JST is in the footnotes or within the middle of the quad bible. The JST is not really a different book doctrinally or anything like that, it's simply a clarification in every example I've come across. Plus it makes it easier to debate with non-members if you have the same bible.

-I really don't care that you don't believe in my faith. As long as you're a good person and a good christian we'll all end up in the same place eventually.

------------------

-I truly believe in these things. I'm not going through the motions to seem mormon when I'm really not. I am mormon. I'd die for my faith.

----------------------

-There is no chasm between my fiancée and myself. I'm just as mormon as she is. In fact at times, I'm more so. You really don't know my fiancée, do you. She was never the "molly mormon" type. I smoked with her on several occasions. She'd have married me and lived with me my whole life even if I'd never converted. I never felt pressure to join the church. I never felt that I couldn't make a life with her without joining the church.

------------------

-What the hell are you talking about "my parents don't know what's best for me"? My parents never questioned my decision, my parents never told me "don't". You really need to realize that I'm a better person because I became mormon. Because I'm mormon I don't smoke, don't drink, don't get stoned, I'm better off.

----------------

-Whatever you might want to say about the church being true or not, the truth is: Mormonism works. Mormons are more charitable, more loving, more spiritual and more christ like than any church I've ever seen or even heard of.

Some Unfulfilled Prophesies of JS:

September 1, 1842. D&C 127:2. Joseph Smith prophesies that he "shall triumph over all my enemies."

Reality: His enemies murdered him less than two years after this prophecy.

Jan 19, 1841. D&C 124:56, 60. God orders the building of the Nauvoo House, a hotel, in which Joseph Smith and his "house" will have "place" "from generation to generation."

Reality: Nauvoo House was never fully completed. Joseph Smith never lived in it; his widow Emma was living in it at her death, but his family have not owned or occupied it since then. It is owned by the Reorganized Church of LDS.

Jan 19, 1841. D&C 124:20-21. Revelation and prophecy regarding George Miller. He "is without guile; he may be trusted...; I, the Lord, love him... Let no man despise my servant George, for he shall honor me."

Reality: On December 3, 1848, George Miller was disfellowshipped by the Mormons.

April 23, 1834. D&C 104: 78-83. God's promise to deliver the Saints from their debts. "It is my will that you shall pay all your debts." The Lord will soften the hearts of their creditors.

Reality: Joseph Smith and other prominent Mormons had to flee Kirtland to avoid their creditors, leaving debts of thousands of dollars unpaid. Smith ultimately filed bankruptcy.

D&C 130:14-17. Joseph Smith prophesies that "there of those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes." He prophesies "in the name of the Lord God - let it be written: that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890."

Reality: Its 2005, the 2nd coming has not yet occurred.

*** This is Merely a fraction of the known false prophecies of Joseph Smith ***

quote:Whatever you might want to say about the church being true or not, the truth is: Mormonism works. Mormons are more charitable, more loving, more spiritual and more christ like than any church I've ever seen or even heard of.

Whether true or not (and i'm very skeptical of this claim), any religion could "work" if there were a human authority requiring you to admit every sin to him on a regular basis under penalty of excommunication.

quote:Originally posted by Choscura:

the majority of them know what a pack of shit their faith is but go through the motions anyway

That's only true about Mormons.

You can't say that about REAL christians.

Originally posted by theBishop:

Some Unfulfilled Prophesies of JS:

September 1, 1842. D&C 127:2. Joseph Smith prophesies that he "shall triumph over all my enemies."

Reality: His enemies murdered him less than two years after this prophecy.



-Were his enemies goals really to kill him? No. His enemies could have given a shit less about Joseph Smith the man, they wanted to kill what he stood for. They wanted to kill his church. Did they do that? If they had I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

Jan 19, 1841. D&C 124:56, 60. God orders the building of the Nauvoo House, a hotel, in which Joseph Smith and his "house" will have "place" "from generation to generation."

Reality: Nauvoo House was never fully completed. Joseph Smith never lived in it; his widow Emma was living in it at her death, but his family have not owned or occupied it since then. It is owned by the Reorganized Church of LDS.

Seemed fine when I stayed in it.



Jan 19, 1841. D&C 124:20-21. Revelation and prophecy regarding George Miller. He "is without guile; he may be trusted...; I, the Lord, love him... Let no man despise my servant George, for he shall honor me."

Reality: On December 3, 1848, George Miller was disfellowshipped by the Mormons.



Could you be a little more specific? Was he defellowshipped becayse he did something untrustworthy, or because of something else. Back then you'd get excommunicated for so much as not attending church.



April 23, 1834. D&C 104: 78-83. God's promise to deliver the Saints from their debts. "It is my will that you shall pay all your debts." The Lord will soften the hearts of their creditors.

Reality: Joseph Smith and other prominent Mormons had to flee Kirtland to avoid their creditors, leaving debts of thousands of dollars unpaid. Smith ultimately filed bankruptcy.

I don't really know the history behind this one, so I can't speak to it. My assumption is that neither do you.

D&C 130:14-17. Joseph Smith prophesies that "there of those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes." He prophesies "in the name of the Lord God - let it be written: that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890."

Reality: Its 2005, the 2nd coming has not yet occurred.

The words spoken from God to Joseph smith were something to the effect of "if you live to be 85 you will see the second coming". Smith was probibly not supposed to know he wouldn't see his 85th birthday.

*** This is Merely a fraction of the known false prophecies of Joseph Smith ***



You forgot to even mention my prophecy. I spoke to each of the "false" prophecies you mentioned, why don't you comment on mine? (d&c 87)

Whether true or not (and i'm very skeptical of this claim), any religion could "work" if there were a human authority requiring you to admit every sin to him on a regular basis under penalty of excommunication.

Didn't you claim to have had a mormon girlfriend? How can you be skeptical of this claim if you have been around mormons? Go to a mormon ward and you'll see far more people of honor and integrity than in any other church.

I fail to see this whole "requiring you to admit every sin" thing. I've never had to admit sins to my bishop. Big ones I suppose you should tell your bishop about, but little pithy sins aren't worth his time. Besides, it's not that easy to get excommunicated these days. Unless you molest children or something like that you won't get excommunicated.

Bottom line: Active mormons tend to be better people than active members of other churches.



[This message has been edited by HomerJay603 (edited 10-13-2005).]

quote:

Didn't you claim to have had a mormon girlfriend? How can you be skeptical of this claim if you have been around mormons? Go to a mormon ward and you'll see far more people of honor and integrity than in any other church.

I fail to see this whole "requiring you to admit every sin" thing. I've never had to admit sins to my bishop. Big ones I suppose you should tell your bishop about, but little pithy sins aren't worth his time. Besides, it's not that easy to get excommunicated these days. Unless you molest children or something like that you won't get excommunicated.

Bottom line: Active mormons tend to be better people than active members of other churches.



Yes i had a mormon girlfriend, and yes for the most part mormons are great people. I'm also a non-denominational christian, and i think its incredibly arrogant of you to suggest that mormons "tend to be better people" than the people that attend any of the churches i frequent.

Before you go to temple, you are required to disclose any sins to the bishop. Depending on where you live, you may or may do this often. But there are other times where mormons frequently meet with a bishop and disclose their sins. Also, these meetings are sometimes disclosed to other members of your ward.

In response to your claim that Smith conditioned his prophecy of the second coming on if "if lived to be 80 something", this is a subject of many revisions and paperings-over by church historians.

DHC 5:336 - "I prophecy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written, the Son of Man wi1l not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty five years old."

DHC 2:182 - "the coming of the Lord, which was nigh * even fifty*six years should wind up the scene." (this statement was made in 1835)

D&C 110:16 - "The great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors."

And anyway, it think its incredibly bizarre that god would condition a prophecy on something he knew would not happen. "God's sense of humor" is a bit of a stretch.



PS: Your very example of a true prophecy of Joseph Smith isn't even true:

"And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place."

Last i checked the Civil War did not "pour out upon all nations". There's more to say about this "prophecy", but i'll leave it at that for now.

PPS: My girlfriend's sister was disfellowshipped because she got pregnant out of wedlock.

[This message has been edited by theBishop (edited 10-13-2005).]

Whoever told you about these "frequent" meetings with the bishop must really have been exagurating.

You don't have to get a meeting with the bishop every time you go to the temple, just every time you get a temple recommend, every two years. You also might get called in for an interview with a new bishop, say every couple years, so let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that an active mormon might meet with the bishop every 6 months. Whis is exactly as often as an active catholic is supposed to go to confession. Plus, these meetings aren't for confessing little sins, but big things like breaking the law of chastity, or having a drug habbit, etc. And these meetings are never to be disclosed to other members of the ward. You really need to get your facts straight.

In response to your prophecy thing...

Wow, you really do have a love for semantics don't you. The emphasis on the end of the world is to keep us prepared for it. If one believes that he has 100 years left to live, he may decide to spend a few of those in sin, but if he thinks his god might he meet tomorrow, he will stand richeous.

The civil war did "pour out onto all nations". Do you realize the huge international impact that the civil war had? In an increasingly global economy, the american civil war effected everyone. And to imply that "joseph smith predicted the civil war but said it would be bigger than it was" sounds pretty stupid to me.

You can't be polytheistic and be Christian. Mormons are polytheistic. Mormons are not Christians, they just want to be. Think about it, Jesus said he was the last prophet, yet Joseph Smith claims to be one. Same thing, and Muslims claim Muhammad was a prophet. They both believe in Jesus, but so what. That doesn't make them Christians.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:



You really do have a lot of undue anger towards mormons, don't you.

Yeah, there is the possibility that the book of mormon was made up. However if you look at it critically, the witnesses to Jesus's deeds were long gone by the time of the writing of the 4 gospells, so there is a possibility that was made up too. It's a matter of faith. I have faith that the book of mormon wasn't made up.

Wait, the witnesses to Jesus' deeds weren't dead by the time of the writing of the Gospels, b/c they are the ones who wrote the Gospels. The Gospels were starting to be written only 30 years after Jesus' death. Your just kinda mixed up. The Gospels &lt;b&gt; weren't put together into books&lt;/B&gt; until after the death of the apostles or witnesses.

They believe in Christ (and the bible) so they must be christians, how can it be argued any other way?

As for this

'and this is pointed to as proof of the legitimacy of mormonism, forgetting of course that the mormon bible was written in america, leaving the whole thing open to the possibility of being entirely made up!'

Theres no special reason why the bible wasnt made up if the book of mormon wasnt made up?!

Whether the mormon church is right or wrong (I think wrong) is irrelevant btw bishop and whether it was made up or not they believe in the christ from the bible, the same christ that is reffered to by the term christians.

[This message has been edited by farq (edited 10-15-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Shylok:

You can't be polytheistic and be Christian. Mormons are polytheistic. Mormons are not Christians, they just want to be. Think about it, Jesus said he was the last prophet, yet Joseph Smith claims to be one. Same thing, and Muslims claim Muhammad was a prophet. They both believe in Jesus, but so what. That doesn't make them Christians.

We aren't polytheistic. We worship one God and his son, Jesus Christ. That is all.

Where did Jesus say he was the last prophet? I'd like a verse please.

If Jesus was the last prophet, then what do you call Paul? His writings are scripture, you believe that he heard the voice of God, is that not a prophet?

What do you call John? God showed him the end of the world, his writings are scripture, was he not a prophet?

Both of those men were alive after Jesus's death, so if Jesus was the last prophet you had better pull corinthians out of your bible.

Thank you for your enlightened opinion farq.

K, so not all of the witnesses to jesus's deads were dead by the time the books were written, but my point stands that there weren't many around to refute what was being written in the gospels. If they had wanted to, the apostles could have easily imbelished the deeds of Jesus christ, to validate the fact that they'd spent their entire life following him.

I don't believe a word of that, but my point is that there is a possibility that the bible was forged, just as there is a possibility that the book of mormon was. A rational person would take that to mean that we shouldn't believe in either. A faithful person would not.

Honestly, I don't know. I don't care to know either. I'll stick to my bible (kjv, amplified). I know that our church had received serveal prophecies over the past 7 years. We do record them and give them to our local body of believes, but we don't make it into a holy book. We take it as what God wants us to do, to reach the world. Our mission, if you will. Phophecies are used to edify the church. I personally just don't see God giving a man a holy book this day in age by an angel not mentioned in the Holy Bible. Other than that, Mormons are generally nice people. I know a few mormons, but I don't engage myself in a debate with them. People are very, um, narrow-minded when it comes to their religion, and religious beliefs. Therefore, I live the life before them, and keep my mouth shut.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Honestly, I don't know. I don't care to know either. I'll stick to my bible (kjv, amplified). I know that our church had received serveal prophecies over the past 7 years. We do record them and give them to our local body of believes, but we don't make it into a holy book. We take it as what God wants us to do, to reach the world. Our mission, if you will. Phophecies are used to edify the church. I personally just don't see God giving a man a holy book this day in age by an angel not mentioned in the Holy Bible. Other than that, Mormons are generally nice people. I know a few mormons, but I don't engage myself in a debate with them. People are very, um, narrow-minded when it comes to their religion, and religious beliefs. Therefore, I live the life before them, and keep my mouth shut.



Prophecies? May I ask what church you belong to?

From reading that, it just sounds like Joseph Smith could have been crazy. Or had a little too much of the drink, if you know what I mean.

A theory to play on:

Hey wait...that could be the way other religions started too! Wow, crazy...just to think that someone could have made this crap up or convinced other people to believe them.

I wonder if someone tried the same thing today if it would work. I think it would harder since millions were already tricked by Joseph or the authors of the bible.

BUT there was 'scientology' recently. And they seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.

***************************

Maybe I should start my own. It seems to be pretty rewarding ---&gt; Money and lots of followers to do your bidding.

quote:Originally posted by Choscura:

to be christian is to believe that christ is your savior, and that christ IS god IS the holy spirit (think of the three natures of water: liquid, ice, and vapor).

That's ridiculous. To think the Holy-trinity is really a Holy-solo, or Holy-uni.

How can Jesus be God, if God was his father, who is technially the father of everyone. It's like a Jerry Springer episode.

"I am my own grandpa!".

I am pretty sure that Jesus was the son of Jehova.

quote:Originally posted by Aeon:

That's ridiculous. To think the Holy-trinity is really a Holy-solo, or Holy-uni.

How can Jesus be God, if God was his father, who is technially the father of everyone. It's like a Jerry Springer episode.

"I am my own grandpa!".

I am pretty sure that Jesus was the son of Jehova.





its the subject of centuries of debate. i admit that i am sometimes skeptical of the holy trinity, but the biblical evidence seems pretty sound.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:



its the subject of centuries of debate. i admit that i am sometimes skeptical of the holy trinity, but the biblical evidence seems pretty sound.

However, the point is that you don't have to believe in that crap to be a christian.

Yes you are polytheistic, you just worhsip one god head. But you worhsip God, jesus and the holy spirit as seperate gods that make up one god head. Also, mormons think that God is a physical being that was chosen by the god before him on a planet called kolob. The thing is is that Jesus didn't have to say he was the last, but if he wasn't, what was his purpose? He was the ultimate ssacrifice to allow people into heaven, he paid for man's sins.And Paul and John and the rest of the Apostles were not profits. The last old testament profit beign John the Babtist (a little bible trivia!)and the new testamnt being Jesus. Anyway, just because you believe in Jesus doens't make you christian. Muslims believe in Jesus, they say he was a profit. Are they Christian? NO!

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

However, the point is that you don't have to believe in that crap to be a christian.

I can begrudgingly with that.

However, that doesn't mean Mormons are Christians. Mormons believe in the same key players as Christians, but they are totally different people and play different roles.

For instance, take the movies The Godfather, and Scarface. Different movies. If Al Pacino's character was named "Michael Corleone" in both films but everything else stays the same, that doesn't make it the same character.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I can begrudgingly with that.

However, that doesn't mean Mormons are Christians. Mormons believe in the same key players as Christians, but they are totally different people and play different roles.

For instance, take the movies The Godfather, and Scarface. Different movies. If Al Pacino's character was named "Michael Corleone" in both films but everything else stays the same, that doesn't make it the same character.

We Believe that Jesus Christ, the son of God came down to earth and suffered and died for our sins, being dead for 3 days before being resurrected.

We believe the God the father, created us all, put us all here and then sent his only begotten to die for our sins.

I honestly don't know how that makes either God of Jesus Michael corleone.

quote:

Yes you are polytheistic, you just worhsip one god head. But you worhsip God, jesus and the holy spirit as seperate gods that make up one god head. Also, mormons think that God is a physical being that was chosen by the god before him on a planet called kolob. The thing is is that Jesus didn't have to say he was the last, but if he wasn't, what was his purpose? He was the ultimate ssacrifice to allow people into heaven, he paid for man's sins.And Paul and John and the rest of the Apostles were not profits. The last old testament profit beign John the Babtist (a little bible trivia!)and the new testamnt being Jesus. Anyway, just because you believe in Jesus doens't make you christian. Muslims believe in Jesus, they say he was a profit. Are they Christian? NO!

Lots of branches of christianity worship God and Jesus Christ seperately. Are they polytheistic? I've even heard the term "godhead". We were not the coiners of that term.

Jesus did have to say he was the last if he was. I agree that he was the ultimate sacrifice, however that doesn't make him the last prophet. If Paul wasn't a prophet, then why do you read corinthians? Why do you quote it as scripture? In order for it to be scripture in a true sense, it must therefore be the inspired word of God and the only persons who write that are prophets. If John was not a prophet, how did he see the future? If you believe that revelation is a true vision of the future, then you must believe that the author falls under the category of prophet. Otherwise he falls under the category of medium, which is strictly forbidden by the bible.

Muslims say that Jesus Christ was a "good teacher". They don't believe he was a prophet, and they certainly don't believe that he was the son of God, as we do.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

We Believe that Jesus Christ, the son of God came down to earth and suffered and died for our sins, being dead for 3 days before being resurrected.

We believe the God the father, created us all, put us all here and then sent his only begotten to die for our sins.

I honestly don't know how that makes either God of Jesus Michael corleone.



Yes, yes, its all so carefully worded to sound like we're talking about the same thing.

Christians believe in God. Who is the alpha and omega. He created the universe and everything in it. Jesus is god in the flesh. He was crucified and his death is a sufficient sacrifice to forgive the sins of humanity. If you accept that sacrufice.

Mormons also believe in God. Except he isn't the alpha and omega. He was a man who lived on another planet. By following the doctrines of the God from the world he lived in, he was able to acheive God-status (aka the Celestial Kingdom), and was able to create his own universe (i.e. this one).

The mormon god also brought one of his wives from his previous life to be the Heavenly Mother. Through sexual intercourse with the heavenly mother, spiritual children are born, which we all were before we became human. Jesus was the first of these spiritual children, and Satan was the second. Contrast this with the bible, which says Jesus was God's only son. He certainly isn't brother to Satan.

Furthermore, Christians belief that it is our faith in Jesus which will ultimately save us. Accepting the gift of the crucifixtion and resurrection is all you need to be forgiven of sin.

Mormons believe that in addition to faith in Christ, we must also follow the ordinances of the Church of Latter-day Saints to be saved (Article of Faith #3). This stands in sharp contrast to the Christian bible (Eph 2:8-9):

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.



[This message has been edited by theBishop (edited 10-23-2005).]