I had to write a thesis on this for class and outline it the other day and thought you guys would have some good ideas on this topic. I have a conclusion in my head, but I can't seem to get it on paper. This isn't an ask for homework help, but I have become very interested in this subject and hope that I might get some other opinions on it.

Here it is.

Job 7:20-21

If I sin, what do I do to you, you watcher of humanity? Why have you made me your target? Why have I become a burden to you? Why do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I shall lie in the earth; you will seek me, but I shall not be.

I. Introduction

PROBLEM: Job’s difficulty of understanding why an all-powerful, all-knowing God allows people to suffer.

THESIS: God allows Job to be tormented by Satan to show that He is sovereign and unparalleled over Satan and humanity’s suffering.

II. Definitions

• Suffering

-Tolerating or enduring evil

-To feel pain or distress; sustain loss, injury, harm or punishment

• All-powerful

- Omnipotent

- Almighty

• Satan/Evil

- That which is not God-like in nature



III. God is all-powerful

• Limits were imposed upon Satan concerning Job’s torment

• God was not imposing the suffering, Satan was

• Job’s suffering was in the hands of God because Satan was in God’s control

• God’s lack of a rational explanation for the unfair distribution of blessings among men.

IV. Deficiency of reason concerning suffering

• God does not think people should discuss divine justice since God’s power is so great that humans couldn’t justify his ways (Job 38:2)

• Bildad’s argument that misfortune is caused by great sin (Job 8:2-22)

• Job suggests that God is unjustly punishing him

• God’s response to Job when Job asks God to explain himself (Job 38:2-40:1)

• Job doesn’t need reason, he has God. Job 13:15-16: “See, he will kill me; I have no hope; but I will defend my ways to his face. This will be my salvation, that the godless will not come before him.”

V. Suffering for reasons unbeknownst to humanity

• Job’s suffering is not a result of his sins, but of Satan’s challenge to God

• Both God and Satan think Job is ‘blameless’ and ‘upright’ regardless of God’s choice to let Satan torment him.

• Eliphaz’s, Bildad’s and Zophar’s opinion on why Job is suffering angers God because they are trying to justify his ways when the three do not know why God has approved of Satan’s torment of Job.

• Does God want to test Job’s faith to prove Satan wrong, or does God want to prove his omnipotence over Satan, evil, and suffering to those to try to reason? (i.e. Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar)

Your thesis is incorrect. God didn't let Satan torment Job as a display of power, but to show the strength of a man's faith.

Satan and God are having some idle chit-chat and God mentions Job as a blameless man and a great servant. Satan's reply was that the only reason Job was so loyal was because God gave him so many blessings. God then gave Satan permission to take everything God had given Job away from him.

quote:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[b] also came among them. 7 And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

9 So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”

So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

So Satan ruins Job's life. Now, regarding your question: "Does God want to test Job’s faith to prove Satan wrong, or does God want to prove his omnipotence over Satan, evil, and suffering to those to try to reason?" Niether. God did it because it needed to be done. Satan posed a question, a question that men themselves would soon be posing to one another: Do those who worship God only do it to benifit themselves? Does God buy the faith of his believers with blessings? So God took this one man and let his life be destroyed, and the man's faith remained.

One major fact you are leaving out of your essay is, God paid him back for his troubles. After it was all said and done, God gave Job double what he had in the first place. So God gets to prove a point and Job gets his assets double, gets remarried, and 10 kids (his daughters were said to have been the hottest in the land), and he lived 140 years in wealth and happiness. Hahaha. You don't think God repaid him enough for the trouble?

As far as the suffering of humanity and why God allows it, there are many reasons. Some we may understand, others we never will. For one it is a test of faith, it improves faith. Trials also build character. The same goes for the "unfair" distribution of blessings among humanity. You have to ask yourself if fame and fortune are always blessings? One man's blessing is another's curse, and you have to look at the whole spectrum of one's life to realize whether or not something has truly helped or hurt them in the end.

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 09-22-2005).]

The one who is missing something is you, Elephantitis Man. You're missing he fact that if god is supposedly omnipotent, he didn't "need" to do anything. He could have answered Satan's question without having to make Job suffer. He could "improved our faith" without making us suffer. So the question still stands.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The one who is missing something is you, Elephantitis Man. You're missing he fact that if god is supposedly omnipotent, he didn't "need" to do anything. He could have answered Satan's question without having to make Job suffer. He could "improved our faith" without making us suffer. So the question still stands.

Of course God didn't need to do anything. Lets say he didn't. Fuck it, let's say one day God gets pissed, wipes out everything he created and decides to start over. He makes a perfect world where nobody sins against anyone else. People worship him and love him for no reason, simply because he made them that way. Humans lack sinful nature and Satan and all evil is locked away forever and ever. The world is utopia. As a matter of fact, death is sad, death makes people sad and God doesn't like his children to be sad, so he makes men immortal. There is no sadness, no poverty, no crime, no death. If anything gets out of line, by some sort of fluke, God zaps it away instantly. Is this what you want from God?

What is wrong with the picture painted above? It isn't earth. It is pretty much heaven. So why didn't God just make heaven full of happiness and leave it at that? You do realize God has a certain persona. He is not a mindless drone, some sort of supernatural robot. He carries a sense of pride and jealousy. Why have a heaven full of followers who you made to follow you, who know nothing else, when you can have a kingdom full of followers who are there because they chose to believe in you? And what value is their choice if they didn't have to make some sacrifices, have their faith tested, to be there?

Let me pitch something else your way...who's to say we are the first, or last "earth" God has/will ever created? The Bible never exclusively says we are the only ones, or that there will never be anymore. Who's to say that God hasn't gone through several worlds before us or will make more after this one is done? Perhaps he has made worlds that were mindless utopias, and he got bored, merged it with heaven and moved on. At one point he was so pissed, he almost killed everyone on this planet and started over.

You are blaming an omnipotent being because you do not understand His reasons for making certain decisions. There is a weakness to logic, and that weakness is a lack of knowledge. Compared to God, men have no knowledge, therefore our logic as pertained to his decisions is irrelavant.

Another point is, if there were no suffering on earth, what seperates earth from heaven? What test the faith of followers? What helps correct the ways of those who stray? There are reasons for suffering we don't always see.

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 09-22-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:



What is wrong with the picture painted above? It isn't earth. It is pretty much heaven. So why didn't God just make heaven full of happiness and leave it at that? You do realize God has a certain persona. He is not a mindless drone, some sort of supernatural robot. He carries a sense of pride and jealousy. Why have a heaven full of followers who you made to follow you, who know nothing else, when you can have a kingdom full of followers who are there because they chose to believe in you? And what value is their choice if they didn't have to make some sacrifices, have their faith tested, to be there?

Sorry, but seeing as he is omnipotent, he can make it so that everyone gets to heaven, by their choice alone. Even if they don't want to, they do in the end chose to be in heaven and believe in god. Sounds illogical right? But that's what supposedly god can do.

So you've managed to show nothing. He could have exactly what you claim he wants now (a heaven full of people who made their own choice of being there and following him) by simply uttering a word (not even that, he doesn't even have to a thing, nor does he have to waste time, nor does he have to exert energy).

So, again, the point stands.

quote:

Let me pitch something else your way...who's to say we are the first, or last "earth" God has/will ever created? The Bible never exclusively says we are the only ones, or that there will never be anymore. Who's to say that God hasn't gone through several worlds before us or will make more after this one is done? Perhaps he has made worlds that were mindless utopias, and he got bored, merged it with heaven and moved on. At one point he was so pissed, he almost killed everyone on this planet and started over.

Yes. That still begs the question of why he would allow for us to suffer...

quote:

You are blaming an omnipotent being because you do not understand His reasons for making certain decisions. There is a weakness to logic, and that weakness is a lack of knowledge. Compared to God, men have no knowledge, therefore our logic as pertained to his decisions is irrelavant.

Sorry but that goes both ways. Are we to stop talking about god because we "have no knowledge"? The I suggest you start first.

quote:

Another point is, if there were no suffering on earth, what seperates earth from heaven? What test the faith of followers? What helps correct the ways of those who stray? There are reasons for suffering we don't always see.



Wrong. If there is a reason to allow suffering, then since he is omnipotent, he must be able to fulfill that (i.e. to do what suffering supposedly does) without making us suffer. He is omnipotent after all. So the question remains, why?

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-22-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Wrong. If there is a reason to allow suffering, then since he is omnipotent, he must be able to fulfill that (i.e. to do what suffering supposedly does) without making us suffer. He is omnipotent after all. So the question remains, why?



Appearantly he has deemed suffering the best way to get the job done. For the most part, you've ignored the brunt of my argument. Like a little kid, ignoring everything I say until I specifically tell you 'why'. You want to know why? So do I. There, I don't know why. Ready for a cliche? "The Lord works in mysterious ways." That's why.

It is what it will always boil down to , Rust. Blind faith. Always. Some will ignorantly believe, some will ignorantly disbelieve, and some will rattle their minds their entire lives trying to make sense of it all.

But why does God let people suffer when he has the power to take away their suffering immediately? I'll ask Him someday. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 09-22-2005).]

Maybe because he's a petty sadistic bastard?

Anybody who kills a whole family just to prove a point counts as a petty sadistic bastard in my opinion.

But hey who am I?

I'm just a mere mortal what does my opion matter right?

quote:As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport.

[This message has been edited by FunkyZombie (edited 09-22-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Appearantly he has deemed suffering the best way to get the job done.

That or he doesn't exist as you believe in him.

So given that he has the power to do away with suffering, and does not, the only logical conclusion is that he doesn't exist as you describe him.

Moreover, the question still stands. Even if he did exist as you describe him, that would make the question even more relevant since that would require something illogical, and thus it would certainly be valid to question why that contradiction.

quote: For the most part, you've ignored the brunt of my argument. Like a little kid, ignoring everything I say until I specifically tell you 'why'.

I have? Is that why you enumerated all of the instances where I didn't deal with the brunt of your argument? Oh, you didn't? Care to do it now or are you just taking this as a chance to complain?

Quote what I didn't deal with and I'll either deal with it if I had not, or I'll show you where I already had.



quote: You want to know why? So do I. There, I don't know why. Ready for a cliche? "The Lord works in mysterious ways." That's why.

Well that was evident since the beginning.. that's exactly what begs the question! His actions are most certainly mysterious, hence why we want answers.

quote:

It is what it will always boil down to , Rust. Blind faith. Always. Some will ignorantly believe, some will ignorantly disbelieve, and some will rattle their minds their entire lives trying to make sense of it all.



So then the original poster didn't ignore anything, and the question still stands? That's all I wanted.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-22-2005).]

personally i like the old joke- "Job...there's just something about you that really pisses me off"

which, theologically speaking, is as good an explanation as any i guess.

oh and if you want to go deeper into Job then reading the socalled 'babylonian Job' is a must.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Of course God didn't need to do anything. Lets say he didn't. Fuck it, let's say one day God gets pissed, wipes out everything he created and decides to start over. He makes a perfect world where nobody sins against anyone else. People worship him and love him for no reason, simply because he made them that way. Humans lack sinful nature and Satan and all evil is locked away forever and ever. The world is utopia. As a matter of fact, death is sad, death makes people sad and God doesn't like his children to be sad, so he makes men immortal. There is no sadness, no poverty, no crime, no death. If anything gets out of line, by some sort of fluke, God zaps it away instantly. Is this what you want from God?

What is wrong with the picture painted above? It isn't earth. It is pretty much heaven. So why didn't God just make heaven full of happiness and leave it at that? You do realize God has a certain persona. He is not a mindless drone, some sort of supernatural robot. He carries a sense of pride and jealousy. Why have a heaven full of followers who you made to follow you, who know nothing else, when you can have a kingdom full of followers who are there because they chose to believe in you? And what value is their choice if they didn't have to make some sacrifices, have their faith tested, to be there?



This is still Earth. Garden of Eden is that way. There is no suffering or anything there.

No death too. It was literally heaven on Earth.

to make a point to Satan that he is faihful

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The one who is missing something is you, Elephantitis Man. You're missing he fact that if god is supposedly omnipotent, he didn't "need" to do anything. He could have answered Satan's question without having to make Job suffer. He could "improved our faith" without making us suffer. So the question still stands.

Again I ask the ?, Who the hell allowed u to become a mod? (just messin)

Ok, on the subject: Rust brings up a good point, however, I don't think it's Gods' needs being met by allowing man to suffer, not directly anyhow.

And the fact that God CHOOSES not to do something does not mean He's not Omnipotent, it simply means that He chose not to do it.

But, on the other hand, it (Job) does seem to show that God MAY BE "UNSURE" of Himself and therefore, not Omniscient.

NOW, onto the main thing that Job (the story) does prove/disprove is the Christian belief that Satan is a 'Moral Dolt'. God has faith in him obviously, He puts up with him and from time to time, obviously invites/allows Satan into heaven, and they're convo, as I've stated in the past seemed very liesure and familar (to the two of them).

If these beings are real, I belief that the current bible's got it all wrong. The rift between Satan and God was caused by a MORAL issue, and the reason that Satan recieved his new name (Satan) is because he accused/accuses God of a MORAL crime/issue/whatever.

There are very many instances in the bible which supports what I've said, but I'm too high-handed and lazy to post them just yet, so if you decide you want to know then ask, I doubt anyone will.

It seems that to the ppl of these days logic and religion simply DO NOT MIX.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The one who is missing something is you, Elephantitis Man. You're missing he fact that if god is supposedly omnipotent, he didn't "need" to do anything. He could have answered Satan's question without having to make Job suffer. He could "improved our faith" without making us suffer. So the question still stands.

If God is omniscient, why does he need to make Job suffer? Satan is not omniscient.

Therefore, God allows Job to suffer, to proof his point to Satan. After causing Job a lot of trouble, God can finally tell Satan: "I told you so!"

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

If God is omniscient, why does he need to make Job suffer? Satan is not omniscient.

Therefore, God allows Job to suffer, to proof his point to Satan. After causing Job a lot of trouble, God can finally tell Satan: "I told you so!"

But God is also omnipotent, it could make Satan see that Job is faithful without having to make Job suffer.

"Question with boldness even the very existance of God, for he must surely more approve of the homage of reason moreso than of blindfolded fear."

-Thomas Jefferson



But seriously, fuck your God. To prove my faith to him I have to accept a belief that has no logical basis for it? And if I don't, he'll damn me? With a religion that has practically no original thought to it, and simply stole ideas from other faiths?

Any God worthy of worship would prefer the virtuous over the simply faithful. Yahweh doesn't make the cut.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

And the fact that God CHOOSES not to do something does not mean He's not Omnipotent, it simply means that He chose not to do it.

True, but if this is case then it means that he's not "omnibenevolent" as the Bible claims.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

True, but if this is case then it means that he's not "omnibenevolent" as the Bible claims.

"Omnibenevolent"??? I think you mean "benevolent". Another thing, if there is no suffering, how is there joy? If there is no sadness, how is there happiness? What are blessings if everyone has them? I still say that there is a purpose for suffering, to bypass suffering through His omnipotence, he would destroy the essence of joy altogether. Destruction of bad is also destruction of good, becuase the existence of both is based on a comparison of the opposite.

That is why there is suffering and why it is a necessity for a world to have both good and evil, presenting humans with free will to choose between the two, as God intended. The garden of Eden was not heaven because Satan was present, humans had free will back then, explaining why they eventually fucked up. They weren't perfect because the only thing perfect is God. The only way God is able to create perfection is to create a duplicate of himself, which in turn, is a part of himself, not a seperate being. For instance there is the Holy Ghost, Jesus, and God in heaven. All 3 are perfect, therefore all 3 are God. Duplication of his own perfection would simply be expansion of himself, thus he would remain alone.

god as the bible says is fucking fake. anyone with any logic or reasoning can see many flaws in the bible, the first of is that god himself sins, and he sins worse then even the baddest of the bad. A perfect all knowing being would never have created the universe or the earth in the first place. wake the fuck up and stop beliving in bullshit. Man belived in tons of different gods, religons and faiths before the bible was even a word. Then one day some really smart people relized there needed to be order in the world, so they wrote the bible and it worked very very well.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

"Omnibenevolent"??? I think you mean "benevolent". Another thing, if there is no suffering, how is there joy? If there is no sadness, how is there happiness? What are blessings if everyone has them? I still say that there is a purpose for suffering, to bypass suffering through His omnipotence, he would destroy the essence of joy altogether. Destruction of bad is also destruction of good, becuase the existence of both is based on a comparison of the opposite.

That is why there is suffering and why it is a necessity for a world to have both good and evil, presenting humans with free will to choose between the two, as God intended. The garden of Eden was not heaven because Satan was present, humans had free will back then, explaining why they eventually fucked up. They weren't perfect because the only thing perfect is God. The only way God is able to create perfection is to create a duplicate of himself, which in turn, is a part of himself, not a seperate being. For instance there is the Holy Ghost, Jesus, and God in heaven. All 3 are perfect, therefore all 3 are God. Duplication of his own perfection would simply be expansion of himself, thus he would remain alone.

Remember prior to the fall, Adam and Eve is happy, even though there is no suffering.

But suffering is a catalyst for the joy in the absence of suffering.

A being with omnimax powers can't have pride and envy GOD FUCKING MADE THOSE DEADLY SINS. Also if he was envious of someone he wouldn't love them so he would not be all loving, therefore the powers are not omnimax ergo your god cannot be based on the christian religion, ergo your explanation is invalid.

LOGIC

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

But suffering is a catalyst for the joy in the absence of suffering.

A being with omnimax powers can't have pride and envy GOD FUCKING MADE THOSE DEADLY SINS. Also if he was envious of someone he wouldn't love them so he would not be all loving, therefore the powers are not omnimax ergo your god cannot be based on the christian religion, ergo your explanation is invalid.

LOGIC

God made deadly sins? How can God produce an action? Sins are not something created, they are a result of ungodliness, of imperfection. And why can't and perfect being have pride? There is a difference between pride and the sin 'pride'. The former is deserved, the latter is bloated arrogance. Much like there is a difference between eating when hungry and gluttony. The former is justified, the latter is not. The idea of God being a 'proud god' is justified by the fact that He is the most powerful being in the universe. The opposite of pride is humility. Thus, if God was not proud, He would be humble. And humble to whom? There is noone for Him to be humble to.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

True, but if this is case then it means that he's not "omnibenevolent" as the Bible claims.

No it doesn't, however, He is not omnibenevolent to begin with, there are several stories in the bible that prove otherwise. He kills indiscriminantly and urges others to do so as well.

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 09-26-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

"Omnibenevolent"??? I think you mean "benevolent".

You think/thought wrong, he had it right. Though omnibenevolent isn't a word, it's meaning is still accepted and conveyed properly. They (Christians) use the prefix, omni-, in the place of, 'all'.

Benevolent means, loving, or kind, whereas OMNIbenevolent means ALL-loving; which God is said to be.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

[B]omnibenevolent isn't a word

The point I was trying to make.



quote:He kills indiscriminantly and urges others to do so as well.

Being the one perfect being in the universe, He is the only one who can judge others. Therefore, he does not kill/order to kill indiscriminately, but always with a purpose for the greater good (which He knows better than any of us because He knows all and we know very little). Hahaha. You point a finger at God, one who knows every detail about everything in the universe and the outcome of every possible event, saying for certain that He has killed people unjustly?

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

[QUOTE]The point I was trying to make.

Yeah, it was a futile point, is what you don't seem to get; a flaw of your's that I've come to recognize..... And everyone else around you, save yourself.

'Uncuttable' is NOT a RECOGNIZED word, HOWEVER, it is still usable in the english language, as is OMNIBENEVOLENT. Therefore, he used the CORRECT wording, in the CORRECT way. I.E. your arguement is FUTILE. http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif)

quote:

Being the one perfect being in the universe,

Perfect by what standards???

quote:He is the only one who can judge others.

So sayeth, YOU. Whose arguements and points are flawed, invalid, and without support.

quote:Therefore, he does not kill/order to kill indiscriminately,

You REALLY need to learn to set up an argument, validate your points, and connect one thing you say to the other. Being able to judge does NOT mean one can't nor won't kill indiscriminately, the two intities are mutually EXCLUSIVE. Try again....

quote:but always with a purpose for the greater good (which He knows better than any of us because He knows all and we know very little). Hahaha.

First off, eveil laughter: LAME. Second, again, so sayeth you.

quote:You point a finger at God, one who knows every detail about everything in the universe and the outcome of every possible event, saying for certain that He has killed people unjustly?

No I don't, I said as far as the bible goes, though in different wording, get your FACTS straight. When you're speaking to me, you've jumped into the big leagues child, act like it.

ALL of what you've said thus far is based SOLELY on oppinion, here your opinions mean NOTHING if not supported by some FACT, or relateable and intelligible LOGIC.

In the story of Lot (Sodom and Gommorah), Gods' moral ineptivity (ineptitude*-I made up ineptivity, though it should be a word if I should say so myself, and I do....) becomes more apparent than any other time, up until that point into the bible, and this is very early on in the bible. He tells Lot to round of his member and leave, because He was going to destroy the cities and all those that remained, be he or she innocent of any crimes or not. Lot had to BARGAIN with God to save as many INNOCENT indivisuals as possible.

That's proof that good is morally unsound. Now if you or anyone else could be give a logical, moral reason for BRUTALLY killing a BABY then I'll shut the hell up. There are instances in the bible where God promotes the dashing a a child, have you any fucking clue what that invovles? It's what the romans used to do to the infants of their enemies. They'd take the sleeping, or screaming child and throw it into a wall (or the ground) head first to crack the skull and smash the brains, deaths that are supposed to be quick, but often not.

Immediate didn't always come immediately. It may sometimes take more than one throwing.

And for your information (which you are in great need of), indiscriminately DOES NOT mean unjustly. Try again.....

:edit:your

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 09-26-2005).]

quote:'Uncuttable' is NOT a RECOGNIZED word

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=uncuttable

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=omnibenevolent

Tsk tsk.

quote:Perfect by what standards???

By sheer power and knowledge. The most powerful, knowledgeable, and everlasting being in the universe.

quote:Being able to judge does NOT mean one can't nor won't kill indiscriminately, the two intities are mutually EXCLUSIVE.

That they are, but not if the judge is benevolent and just. God has the power and right to judge, and the benevolence and knowledge to do so with due justice.

I also find it funny you bring up Sodom and Gomorrah as evidence of God's "moral eniptitude". Allow me to quote a few verses in which Abraham pleads for God to have mercy on the righteous in Sodom:

quote:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Here we see our so-called "unjust" God was prepared to spare an entire city full of wicked men for the sake of 10 good men. And yet 10 good men could not be found. Lot never had to "bargain with God". God sent 2 angels to Lot's house to warn him. They told him to tell his family and any good men to flee the city (this was after they already failed to find 10 good men), but Lot's son-in-laws only mocked him. God was willing to spare the city for the sake of 10, and even sent angels to warn the few left to ensure that everyone got as they deserved.

As far as logic goes, evidence supporting logic is only as good as the manner in which you approach said evidence. So simply because you don't understand the way I see things doesn't automatically imply that I am the one with logical fallacies. It could be your manipulated interpretation of the evidence provided.

Like I said, NOT a RECOGNIZED word. (http://merriam.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=uncuttable&x=3&y=7)

When all the sources agree that it is indeed a word then it is considered a word. BTW, what source/organization is dictionary.com associated with? When a word is accepted by merriam or webster's, that's when it's become noted as a part of the english language.

tsk tsk

quote:By sheer power and knowledge. The most powerful, knowledgeable, and everlasting being in the universe.

Those are qualities NOT standards, you obviously don't know the difference..... And none of those things by HUMAN standards as a WHOLE are qualifies your God as perfect, I see nothing that poimts out moral superiority.

The qualities that you've listed are those of power-hungry control-freaks, and or a narcissist.

quote:God has the power and right to judge,

So does man, and it does.....

Again your saying that God is benevolent and just is not backed by anything, and it's EASILY disputable, therefore false.

He punishes those for doing what He wants them to do, which is psychopathic if anything.

quote:I also find it funny you bring up Sodom and Gomorrah as evidence of God's "moral eniptitude". Allow me to quote a few verses in which Abraham pleads for God to have mercy on the righteous in Sodom:



I also find it funny that you are TOO BLIND to see that what you've just said corroborates what I've been saying and is proof of Gods' moral ineptivity*. If God was truly benevolent Abraham would NOT have to PLEAD with Him to SPARE INNOCENT lives.

And it amuses and astounds me how you so conveniently and slyly skipped over the whole 'baby' issue. A typical Xian tactic. O, and sorry I got Abe and Lots' old asses mixed up, that really made a diff to the point....

quote:As far as logic goes, evidence supporting logic is only as good as the manner in which you approach said evidence. So simply because you don't understand the way I see things doesn't automatically imply that I am the one with logical fallacies. It could be your manipulated interpretation of the evidence provided.

You REALLY like to double-talk, dont you? You love mixing sense with nonsense. You start out on one path and go to something that relates very little or not at all.

First off, what YOU have obviously missed is that, I, Metalligod, neither believes nor disbelieves in the existance of God. I dispute only what is apparent. I couldn't careless whether or not God was omnipotent or omnibenevolent or omniscient, but the fact remains, based on the circumstancial 'evidence' presented I find that He is NOT.

I.E. your bible and other biblical scriptures once thought to be destroyed, lost, etc.

I COMPLETELY understand your thinking, and that's why I am qualified to make such inferences as I have. Yet and still, you haven't, to date backed up a word you've said with ANY EVIDENCE, whether it be moral or scripture or anything else. Don't presume to understand my thiking as you can barely understand your own, and I am not a simple minded fool whose ideas can be reasonably cast aside.

I'd love for you to back up what you said about my interpretation of the evidence(ghost evidence) provided, being manipulated. By what, whom, may I ask?

What do you want evidence for, and what do you qualify as evidence? I wouldn't exactly call Abraham's questions to God "pleading". He asked if God would spare the city for 10 good people and God said "sure". He was pretty agreeable through their whole conversation.

If you want "proof" of God's benevolence, I believe John 3:16 wraps it up: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

If sacrificing one's own son for the good of mankind is not an act of benevolence, I don't know what is.

As far as backing up our arguments with evidence, where are your sources? You mention God 'slaughtering babies', but I see no scripture mentioning it.

You are mistaken in saying man has a right to judge. Romans 3:23 states "for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God". This is the seperation between the judgement of man and the judgement of God. Sin is imperfection, ungodliness. All men have sinned. I don't really know how to express God's perfection 'by human standards' because he is beyond any standards we can set. Take the most loving, intelligent, sinless man (aside from Jesus), and that doesn't even come close to the perfection of God.

Show me evidence in which "He punishes those for doing what He wants them to do". I can guarantee you are taking it out of context.

And for God's sake, would you QUIT capitalizing words throughout your posts in a VAIN attempt to sound DRAMATIC?

quote:What do you want evidence for, and what do you qualify as evidence?

Cuz it bothers me when people say things and they just want people to go along with it, when they can't back up what they've said, I'm left to believe the things they're saying aren't their original thoughts to begin with, they're going on hearsay.

What qualifies as evidence, something that backs up your claims.

quote:Origianlly posted by Elaphantitis Man:

I wouldn't exactly call Abraham's questions to God "pleading".

?

quote:Also Originally posted by Elaphantitis Man:

Allow me to quote a few verses in which Abraham pleads for God to have mercy on the righteous in Sodom:Ya know, you're starting to remind me of two very unlikable politicians who recently ran for president of the US.....

I won't even bother to address what you said about God's benevolence since you still seem to CONVINIENTLY pass over my statements about child dashing. You're avoiding a VERY damaging subject to your arguement.

quote:You are mistaken in saying man has a right to judge.

So sayeth you. Man has the right to govern itself through judgement and it does. When God comes down and stops man from doing it, only to take over and do it Himself, then and only then will I believe otherwise.

quote:Show me evidence in which "He punishes those for doing what He wants them to do". I can guarantee you are taking it out of context.



God created Satan, supposedly knowing all along what Satan was going to do. Yet He punished Him for The Fall, forcing Him out of Heaven and into hell. The Egyptians with plagues, He punishes man by sending them to hell for their sins, EVEN THOUGH man is supposed to be absolved for its sins via the death of Christ. He's punished many others for petty crimes and punished the innocent by urging their rapes and deaths post war. I could go on forever, but I honestly don't feel like it. O, and there's the baby thing, which you flagrantly choose to avoid.

Now I'll be waiting for that garauntee of yours.....

quote:And for God's sake, would you QUIT capitalizing words throughout your posts in a VAIN attempt to sound DRAMATIC?NO. Lol. And I don't aim for drama, I do it to make it stand out, hard to miss, etc. It's a very common literary tactic. http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

God created Satan, supposedly knowing all along what Satan was going to do. Yet He punished Him for The Fall, forcing Him out of Heaven and into hell. The Egyptians with plagues, He punishes man by sending them to hell for their sins, EVEN THOUGH man is supposed to be absolved for its sins via the death of Christ. He's punished many others for petty crimes and punished the innocent by urging their rapes and deaths post war. I could go on forever, but I honestly don't feel like it. O, and there's the baby thing, which you flagrantly choose to avoid.

Now I'll be waiting for that garauntee of yours.....

Lucifer did not have to rebel. It was his choice, a choice God gave him. Which is better: to be given a choice between right and wrong and chosing wrong? Or not having a choice and doing nothing but right? Once again, if God had made Lucifer a perfect being, Lucifer would have been the same as God. I already went over how God cannot create a seperate being from Himself that is perfect because he is the 1 true perfection.

The Egyptians were plagued because they denied God's existence and His orders. Defy His orders, he punishes you.

Men still go to hell because they deny that Jesus was who he said he was. All the sins of man have been forgiven, but men must still acknowledge that they are sinners in the first place. That's like, half of salvation is just admitting that you're a sinner. The gift of salvation is something a man must accept, God's not going to force it into your hands. And many men will reject the gift, despite how easy it is to accept, simply because men are not perfect.

Please detail scripture in which God encourages rapes. I don't believe this. You chastise me for not including enough "evidence" when you provide no sources yourself. As far as the "pleading" issue, I missused pleading in the former post. The fact of the matter is, if you read the scripture I provided, that is not pleading.

The concept that you cannot seem to comprehend is God's state of perfection. Or perhaps it's the concept of absolute perfection itself. You cannot realize that because God knows all, He makes desicions we don't see as 'benevolent' because we are only capable of seeing part of the picture.

Once again, show me where He has killed indiscriminately. I have pointed out examples of his forgiveness and his justice. You enter this thread claiming he kills indiscriminately. I want to see some examples from you now.

quote:Lucifer did not...

Who said anything about Lucifer?

Anyhow, you're missing the point so I give up, He fucking created the guy, supposedly KNOWING the whole time what Satan was going to do, I.E. Satan NEVER REALLY HAD A CHOICE. IT WAS PREDESTINED, IT WAS SET IN MOTION BY GOD.

You've made it palpable that your ideals aren't completely your own, and that they're tainted. I'm done with you moving along.

quote:The Egyptians were plagued because they denied God's existence and His orders.

Yet God knew all the while that they would, and He is the one who instilled us with reasonable doubt, they had reason to doubt His existance as do humans of today. Nevermind that, there were CHILDREN senselessly killed in His plaguing of Egypt another detail you're too blind to acknowledge.

quote:Men still go to hell because they deny that Jesus was who he said he was.

Again, reasonable fucking doubt, the world of men is a world of TRICKERY we don't even have the power to stop our own minds from decieving us, doubting something that seems to good to be true is REASONABLE and a being that would punish its creation for the doubt it instilled in it is unintelligent and IMMORAL.

Again, you're blind. A FOOL for a God who may or may not exist.

quote:Please detail scripture in which God encourages rapes.

First off, you being a Xian or w/e you are, you obviously follow God, you should already know these things, Following something you know little about and understand minutely what you do know is very unintelligent.

Here's friggin scripture: Deuteronomy 20:13-14,Due Deuteronomy 22:28-29, Lev 19:20-22, Genesis 7:20-23.

Wake up. I could post more, but I fail to see the point.

I've grown bored of you, you tactis are lame and annoys me. I've given you examples of His ordering the immoral deaths of infants, get over yourself.

Reply if you wish, if it makes you feel better, but I won't respond nor will I bother to read it.

quote:Originally posted by bangbangsilverhammer:

I had to write a thesis on this for class and outline it the other day and thought you guys would have some good ideas on this topic. I have a conclusion in my head, but I can't seem to get it on paper. This isn't an ask for homework help, but I have become very interested in this subject and hope that I might get some other opinions on it.

Here it is.

Job 7:20-21

If I sin, what do I do to you, you watcher of humanity? Why have you made me your target? Why have I become a burden to you? Why do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I shall lie in the earth; you will seek me, but I shall not be.

I. Introduction

PROBLEM: Job’s difficulty of understanding why an all-powerful, all-knowing God allows people to suffer.

THESIS: God allows Job to be tormented by Satan to show that He is sovereign and unparalleled over Satan and humanity’s suffering.

II. Definitions

• Suffering

-Tolerating or enduring evil

-To feel pain or distress; sustain loss, injury, harm or punishment

• All-powerful

- Omnipotent

- Almighty

• Satan/Evil

- That which is not God-like in nature



III. God is all-powerful

• Limits were imposed upon Satan concerning Job’s torment

• God was not imposing the suffering, Satan was

• Job’s suffering was in the hands of God because Satan was in God’s control

• God’s lack of a rational explanation for the unfair distribution of blessings among men.

IV. Deficiency of reason concerning suffering

• God does not think people should discuss divine justice since God’s power is so great that humans couldn’t justify his ways (Job 38:2)

• Bildad’s argument that misfortune is caused by great sin (Job 8:2-22)

• Job suggests that God is unjustly punishing him

• God’s response to Job when Job asks God to explain himself (Job 38:2-40:1)

• Job doesn’t need reason, he has God. Job 13:15-16: “See, he will kill me; I have no hope; but I will defend my ways to his face. This will be my salvation, that the godless will not come before him.”

V. Suffering for reasons unbeknownst to humanity

• Job’s suffering is not a result of his sins, but of Satan’s challenge to God

• Both God and Satan think Job is ‘blameless’ and ‘upright’ regardless of God’s choice to let Satan torment him.

• Eliphaz’s, Bildad’s and Zophar’s opinion on why Job is suffering angers God because they are trying to justify his ways when the three do not know why God has approved of Satan’s torment of Job.

• Does God want to test Job’s faith to prove Satan wrong, or does God want to prove his omnipotence over Satan, evil, and suffering to those to try to reason? (i.e. Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar)



Job suffered because he came into this world only wanting a physical reward. So G-d gave it to him and then took it away to show that the reward in this world does not mattered compared to the reward in the world to come. At least I think so, I haven't read that yet but I have heard a talk on it.

In response to Metalligod's post (regardless of whether or not he reads this), I think our key point of disagreement was regarding predestination. I do not believe in predestination. Predestination has been debated for years, without reaching any solid conclusion. Thus, our arguing was pointless.

Ghaaaa! http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by bangbangsilverhammer:

I had to write a thesis on this for class and outline it the other day and thought you guys would have some good ideas on this topic. I have a conclusion in my head, but I can't seem to get it on paper. This isn't an ask for homework help, but I have become very interested in this subject and hope that I might get some other opinions on it.

Here it is.

Job 7:20-21

If I sin, what do I do to you, you watcher of humanity? Why have you made me your target? Why have I become a burden to you? Why do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I shall lie in the earth; you will seek me, but I shall not be.

I. Introduction

PROBLEM: Job’s difficulty of understanding why an all-powerful, all-knowing God allows people to suffer.

THESIS: God allows Job to be tormented by Satan to show that He is sovereign and unparalleled over Satan and humanity’s suffering.

II. Definitions

• Suffering

-Tolerating or enduring evil

-To feel pain or distress; sustain loss, injury, harm or punishment

• All-powerful

- Omnipotent

- Almighty

• Satan/Evil

- That which is not God-like in nature



III. God is all-powerful

• Limits were imposed upon Satan concerning Job’s torment

• God was not imposing the suffering, Satan was

• Job’s suffering was in the hands of God because Satan was in God’s control

• God’s lack of a rational explanation for the unfair distribution of blessings among men.

IV. Deficiency of reason concerning suffering

• God does not think people should discuss divine justice since God’s power is so great that humans couldn’t justify his ways (Job 38:2)

• Bildad’s argument that misfortune is caused by great sin (Job 8:2-22)

• Job suggests that God is unjustly punishing him

• God’s response to Job when Job asks God to explain himself (Job 38:2-40:1)

• Job doesn’t need reason, he has God. Job 13:15-16: “See, he will kill me; I have no hope; but I will defend my ways to his face. This will be my salvation, that the godless will not come before him.”

V. Suffering for reasons unbeknownst to humanity

• Job’s suffering is not a result of his sins, but of Satan’s challenge to God

• Both God and Satan think Job is ‘blameless’ and ‘upright’ regardless of God’s choice to let Satan torment him.

• Eliphaz’s, Bildad’s and Zophar’s opinion on why Job is suffering angers God because they are trying to justify his ways when the three do not know why God has approved of Satan’s torment of Job.

• Does God want to test Job’s faith to prove Satan wrong, or does God want to prove his omnipotence over Satan, evil, and suffering to those to try to reason? (i.e. Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar)



I think you missed the whole key part, when Job said, "The thing I've FEARED the most has come upon me." Did you not read where Job was making sacrifices unto God for the sins his Children MIGHT commit. This is why we have to TRUST God, and not fear, but know. Job had been plotting something out in his mind all the while, and offering sacrifices "just incase". It's a sin to worry, because you then say, God isn't good enough to meet your needs, or you're saying, I trust God, but not enough, I better make sacrifices incase, God can't. God and Can't, don't go together at all.

Job was a righteous man, he did remain faithful, but I bet he learned to trust God too.