People often say religion is just something we used back in the day to control the masses, and it has no use nowadays.

I was just wondering, can anyone give me some concrete examples of this?

One thing I remember is that in the bible, when Jesus stands before some big ol' important guy, just before he's crucified, Jesus is asked about money, and whether it all should go to the emporor... He grabs a coin and says whose picture/name do you see on the coin? Then someone says "the emporor", and Jesus said well then give him what is his.

It probably wasn't emporor, but you get the picture. Was this perhaps a way that someone wanted to convince people to pay their taxes?

If Christianity was invented to control people, it's sure doing a shitty job.

quote:Originally posted by B-Phaze:

People often say religion is just something we used back in the day to control the masses, and it has no use nowadays.

I was just wondering, can anyone give me some concrete examples of this?

One thing I remember is that in the bible, when Jesus stands before some big ol' important guy, just before he's crucified, Jesus is asked about money, and whether it all should go to the emporor... He grabs a coin and says whose picture/name do you see on the coin? Then someone says "the emporor", and Jesus said well then give him what is his.

It probably wasn't emporor, but you get the picture. Was this perhaps a way that someone wanted to convince people to pay their taxes?

no. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

If Christianity was invented to control people, it's sure doing a shitty job.

baaaaaaaaahhahahahaha, you're dumb.

Christianity is the most powerful global movement

quote:Originally posted by B-Phaze:

People often say religion is just something we used back in the day to control the masses, and it has no use nowadays.

I was just wondering, can anyone give me some concrete examples of this??

Religion has the same use as ever, its power has diminished a lot though. Look at it this way: whenever religion was most powerful (middle ages, theocracies), the people were most miserable and had no control whatsoever over their own lives.

quote:Originally posted by B-Phaze:



One thing I remember is that in the bible, when Jesus stands before some big ol' important guy, just before he's crucified, Jesus is asked about money, and whether it all should go to the emporor... He grabs a coin and says whose picture/name do you see on the coin? Then someone says "the emporor", and Jesus said well then give him what is his.

It probably wasn't emporor, but you get the picture. Was this perhaps a way that someone wanted to convince people to pay their taxes?

It was Ceasar's (the roman empEror if you like http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)). Jesus here just shows disregard for money/material things in comparison to spiritual things. You can find passages in the bible to connect religion with control but I don't think they're in the gospels. Try the disciples acts and epistles. Peter and Paul explicitly teach paying the taxes and obeying even the most unfair rulers.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

If Christianity was invented to control people, it's sure doing a shitty job.

That, or you're just ignorant of history. Either one.



I think Adorkable put it quite nicely.

Peter and Paul do not teach paying taxes and obeying even the most unfair rulers.....

in my opinion: please qoute

I think "the church" in general was used as a system of control for a long time, but has since lost a lot of its power. During the middle ages and even up through the time of Darwin, scientists and what not would be jailed because their beliefs happened to differ from that of the church. Which is horrible if you think about it... I mean how much more could we know right now if the church had not been a threat?

Relegion has also basically been seen in every form of society since the earliest times, and was for sure used as control, but in a different way than what would first come to mind. For example the Egyptians saw their rulers as Gods, so there was obviously control there. Thats stepping out of the bounds of "normal" relegion I realize but to me its still control.

And even today you can see it in some churches. In some of the weird ones that are out in like Utah, which i consider more cults than anything, its just as real now as it ever has been. you get to ask your leader to do everything.

So to make is short: Yes relegion can be used as control.

We can attribute some of the 'power' religion has lost to Gutenberg, with invention of the movable type printing press ideas were spread a lot more efficiently.

Viva La Renaissance!

I believe Micheal Hart ranked Gutenberg as one of the most influential people in all of history... now there's something you can be proud of.

quote:Originally posted by Adorkable:

baaaaaaaaahhahahahaha, you're dumb.

Yeah, I'm dumb. That's why I know the Church lost power once people actually were able to read about and understand Christianity on their own, and you don't. Because I'm dumb.

The most powerful man in the world is christian. Christianity is therefor powerful

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

The most powerful man in the world is christian. Christianity is therefor powerful

do you really think the pope's the most powerful man in the world? bush is generally considered leader of the free world, china's leader controls more people, there have been many dictators with much more direct power, and even if you take into account papal infallibility, he's still severely constrained by christian laws and teachings, and has no legal power.

christianity has power, but it's grown beyond the point where anybody can even try to control all christians.

to the original question: when religions are used to directly control people, people tend to call them cults. charles manson, jim jones, it's been made to work fairly effectively. today, religion still controls radicals of any religion, i don't know why you think that religion doesn't have any power any more. it's just more common today for religion to be used to keep the masses quiet and happy, than for any radical change.

whatever dude, i dont relly care

quote:Originally posted by B-Phaze:

People often say religion is just something we used back in the day to control the masses, and it has no use nowadays.

I was just wondering, can anyone give me some concrete examples of this?

One thing I remember is that in the bible, when Jesus stands before some big ol' important guy, just before he's crucified, Jesus is asked about money, and whether it all should go to the emporor... He grabs a coin and says whose picture/name do you see on the coin? Then someone says "the emporor", and Jesus said well then give him what is his.

It probably wasn't emporor, but you get the picture. Was this perhaps a way that someone wanted to convince people to pay their taxes?

The quote is something along the lines of "give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar, and give unto God that which is God's".

I think this was just a way of telling the Jews to think about the big picture rather than just focusing on taxes. That's my take on the line.

quote:Religion has the same use as ever, its power has diminished a lot though. Look at it this way: whenever religion was most powerful (middle ages, theocracies), the people were most miserable and had no control whatsoever over their own lives.

You're making too big of a connection. Take the middle ages for example. Yes, the Church was the dominant force during this time and life was generally very shitty during this time, but that does not mean this was the Church's fault. It's a lot more accurate to place the blame on local leaders who caused the economy to stagnate. During the middle ages, the Church was the only thing that people had apart from working the land. The Church preserved all intellectual works of the time. I don't think anyone can say that religion was responsible for the middle ages, when you consider everything that was going on outside the church.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

The most powerful man in the world is christian. Christianity is therefor powerful

I thought he was talking about Bush for a second..damn..

Not only was it to control, but in more primitive times a way to unify people who didnt have very close contact with each other.

So yes, it serves a purpose that may have been good, but in unifying one group, it automatically seperated them from another group and caused alot of bad too, and it todays world we dont need such unification really.

quote:I was just wondering, can anyone give me some concrete examples of this?

I can give you a simple example in the modern world; the evangelical church (which i believe has the largest following in the US, is this correct?) urged its followers to vote for Bush over Al Gore. Since the elections were so close, this - and the high court, but lets not go there - proved decisive.

quote:bush is generally considered leader of the free world

Bush is only considered the leader of the world by Americans. The rest of the world thinks no more of the US President than they do of any other powerful leader.

[This message has been edited by darth_vector (edited 09-20-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by darth_vector:

Bush is only considered the leader of the world by Americans. The rest of the world thinks no more of the US President than they do of any other powerful leader.

i see the president (regardless of which president) referred to as 'the leader of the free world' all the time, i don't think it means anything except that the united states is supposed to be a good example and have a large influence on the rest of the world, i definitely don't think of bush as the leader of the world

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Yeah, I'm dumb. That's why I know the Church lost power once people actually were able to read about and understand Christianity on their own, and you don't. Because I'm dumb.

'Losing power' does not equal 'not having power'.

The Christian ideology has a humongous amount of control in the world, especially in the Western world. So much so that all U.S. Presidents have been Christians! As have virtually all of U.S. Senators and Congressmen.

To think it it has no power or control is idiotic.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-21-2005).]

There are thoughts that control most of our actions.

We're not always aware of these thoughts, but deep down at some level inside of us, they are there.

Thoughts and memories from past experiences that will affect the way we walk and talk. This is not some super secret universal rule, it's common fucking sense in my opinion. Study your breathing and how tense it is, how it is related to your thoughts.

You can say you are christian, YOU are not really a christian, it is simply a label that was given to you, or you gave yourself. From these rules that your parents believed were right, and their parents, and so on and so forth. It only seemed natural to accept it, didn't it? For so long, for so many years it's been like this.

People are so deeply controlled they will not be able to see it, or even worse, they will try NOT to see it. You know what? The truth is I have heard so many contradictions, rules, sketchy half-truths and arguments that I don't even know what the fuck modern day Christianity is supposed to mean anymore.

Right about now someone like Digital Saviour might come in here with a million more thoughts, repeating like a record that was nuclear bombed, but I say this: Until you know, even for a moment, for an hour, for a day, for a week even... what it feels like to NOT think, to truly NOT have any thought in your mind. Until you've reached that point, you haven't seen what I've seen, and you can just fuck off, with whatever cleverly constructed thought you have to offer.

Because no thought will ever compare to what I've seen. No words will measure up. No amount of money can be more worthy.

Once you know some things, you can never unknow, unless you ignore.

It's not religion that controls the masses, it's religious thought, it is a disease. What is stopping you from hitting on that girl you want to fuck the shit out of? What creeps up every single time and shuts you down? Or from doing that thing you've always been afraid to do? You see it's thought that controls us, WE DO IT TO OURSELVES. If we want to be free, then we must free ourselves as well. It's pretty simple

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

'Losing power' does not equal 'not having power'.

And the Catholic Church, hundreds of years after Jesus' death, had very little to do with the foundations of the faith or for what purpose it was created in the first place.

The religion was not created to control the masses. Was it USED to control the masses? Yes. But it was not intended that way to start with.

quote:The Christian ideology has a humongous amount of control in the world, especially in the Western world. So much so that all U.S. Presidents have been Christians! As have virtually all of U.S. Senators and Congressmen.

You should know full well that their pronounced faith has little to do with their morals or actions, in most cases. John F. Kennedy was a Catholic. Do you think he was being controlled by or faithful to his religion when he was fucking Marilyn Monroe on the side?

quote: To think it it has no power or control is idiotic.

I didn't say it had no power or control. Just that it wasn't very influential. You seem to be giving religion far more credit than it deserves.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

And the Catholic Church, hundreds of years after Jesus' death, had very little to do with the foundations of the faith or for what purpose it was created in the first place.

The religion was not created to control the masses. Was it USED to control the masses? Yes. But it was not intended that way to start with.

The exact purpose of the creation of Christianity is unknown to either of us, so do not claim to know why it was created.

The point was that it does control a huge aspect of Western culture, economics, and politics, and hence, it is not doing a "shitty job at it".

quote:You should know full well that their pronounced faith has little to do with their morals or actions, in most cases. John F. Kennedy was a Catholic. Do you think he was being controlled by or faithful to his religion when he was fucking Marilyn Monroe on the side?

Do you think this helps your case at all?

So JFK was not a practicing Catholic, yet he felt it necessary to play the role of one in his public life? That serves as a perfect example of just how strong the control is! So strong that he felt he had embelish his "religious record" in order to get elected!

That helps my case, that certainly doesn't hurt it.

quote:I didn't say it had no power or control. Just that it wasn't very influential. You seem to be giving religion far more credit than it deserves.

So you're saying it isn't very influential in the same post you're saying that JFK had to embelish the strongness of his religious convictions just to get elected? Could you please explain to me just exactly how that works?

Moreover, you said "That's why I know the Church lost power once people actually were able to read about and understand Christianity on their own, and you don't." which would then be irrelevant since nobody said they hadn't lost power...

So were you arguing that it didn't lose power, or did you just post something irrelevant?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

So you're saying it isn't very influential in the same post you're saying that JFK had to embelish the strongness of his religious convictions just to get elected? Could you please explain to me just exactly how that works?

You either miss my point, or are flat out lying.

Kennedy's Catholicism had little to do with his getting elected. If anything, it was a hindrance. People doubted an Irish Catholic could get elected, but that's besides the point.

I'm operating under the impression that you all are saying religon was created to control the actions of the masses, through enforcing their moral code.

Now, if this is the case, it wasn't very effective on old Jack, was it? The whole 'no adultery' rule kinda slipped past him. We don't have to talk specifically about politicians, either. Take regular people, for example.

A quick scan of the newspaper would give one the thought that people really aren't too good at following those moral codes. Rape, murder, lying, cheating, stealing, etc. are committed by Christians just as much as any other type of people.

If Christianity was so great at controlling the actions of people, the world would be a much better place. The Golden Rule is a great idea. But it isn't good at it. It's not that powerful at all.

quote:Moreover, you said "That's why I know the Church lost power once people actually were able to read about and understand Christianity on their own, and you don't." which would then be irrelevant since nobody said they hadn't lost power...

So were you arguing that it didn't lose power, or did you just post something irrelevant?

Cut the debate team shit. I am allowed to make an independent statement without it having to be a rebuttal of someone else's.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

I'm operating under the impression that you all are saying religon was created to control the actions of the masses, through enforcing their moral code.

Now, if this is the case, it wasn't very effective on old Jack, was it? The whole 'no adultery' rule kinda slipped past him. We don't have to talk specifically about politicians, either. Take regular people, for example.

Then your assumption is an atrocious one. Control doesn't mean that they are robots without any freedom to act for themselves. Not even in the height of Christianity's power was that the case. Control here means that it has a very strong influence upon the "masses".

So you're wrong in that assumption. Moreover, JFK isn't part of the "masses" is he? So the example fails as well in either case.

quote:Cut the debate team shit. I am allowed to make an independent statement without it having to be a rebuttal of someone else's.

Your hypocrisy is fucking sickening.

You said:

"I didn't say it had no power or control. Just that it wasn't very influential. "

What were you doing there? Pointing out that you never said it had no power.

What did I say?:

"which would then be irrelevant since nobody said they hadn't lost power..."

What was I doing there? Pointing that that I never said they had not lost power. I also decided to state the fact that your statement was therefore irrelevant.

There is absolutely no fucking difference in what we did, save for me deciding to state an additional fact. Just as you are "allowed to make an independent statement without it having to be a rebuttal of someone else's" so am I allowed to point out the fact that it was irrelevant.

Not to mention that pointing out how it was irrelevant is very important in this case, since if you post irrelevant things, you automatically leave it open for me to confuse what you're saying. If you suddenly say, "The Church lost power" then the logical assumption to make is that that is what you're arguing.

Instead of admitting this, you decide to take the idiotic approach. Pathetic.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-21-2005).]

RE:

Controling people through religion

Short answer:

Duh.

Long answer:



quote:Originally posted by MR END:

Welcome to Planet Terra.

Yes, y'all have got to give credit to whichever dolt created organized religion.

A rule from a mere Mortal can be questioned easily enough. A rule from a "God" that has absolute power, now that's a lttle harder for most to question.

What it all really boils down to is control.

King wants control, tell priest to "Translate" a rule up for him to control with.

Ignorant sheeple follow rule under fear of reprisal of "God".

This happens far less now than it did in the past, but only as most of the "Good" King empowering "Translations" have been made already.

In my opinion all religions were done for this reason. Most American Indian Religions come close to what I would believe in for a "God"; but I feel each must find thier own way, just do Good and hope for the best is about all you can really do to assure yourself a place in Heaven, Valhalla, Nirvana or where-ever you see the "Good" people going after this journey.

In the end there is only one person and event you have total control over, that person is you, the event is your life; Only you and you alone may decide whether you live as a force of Good or a force of Evil.

It is your choice and you may blame no other for it.





[This message has been edited by MR END (edited 09-21-2005).]

I'd just like to note that christianity started when the followers of Jesus, after his death, simply wanted to get together, talk about what Jesus had said and so forth, much like people do in a church nowadays. Only back then that was something you'd get persecuted and killed for, that's why they had all these secret signs like the fish/ichtys and stuff like that.

And please don't ask me how I know this so that I'll actually have to do some research... I just know :/

And yeah I have no doubt that a lot of presidents have called themselves christians just for the sake of a few extra votes. I actually think some people who aren't practicing christians, would like a christian president, because of the moral principles that come with christianity.

As many of you may know I study religion of all kinds and while I report my finds with annotations I remain neutral and agnostic.

But, this isn't about religion. This is about something real. And it the first draft of my next religious manifesto.

Religion is a byproduct of humanity and while I believe it was created with purist of intentions it was created. Religion wouldn't exist but for humanity and humanity is a rather obscure concept.

Here's where my personal-not-so-neutral beliefs come in.: I believe the problem with The Church (as I'll refer to it) is a psoriosis on the face of humanity.

Hundreds of people congregate just to listen to one mans interpretation of the bible and the people in the audience rarely even open a bible, for themselves. Instead, having it tattooed on their brains that all religious leaders at to be trusted and their opinions not questioned. So why read it anyways? In catholism, particularily, it's assumed that priests are actual vessels for god. Hence we call them "Father".

But not everyone is good all the time and this is okay because it's a human error, but what's humane is to except these faults and to educazte forgivingly the nature of humanity, not because a god wants you to, but because that's what really needs to be done. I think we can all agree that religion get way more attention than humanity.

And why? Just think - really - for a esecond what would you say if you had 50 people sitting before you, who you knew wouldn't question what you'd say? The first thing that comes to mind would be something like

"Give me your money and bring me your virgins!" And as long as you preached things you felt were good and relevent you wouldn't even feel that guilty about it.

So, yes, for whatever good intentions religion and it's establishment were built on has been corrupted; and it's not just Catholism or Christians or Protestants or Jews or Hindus, and Muslims, etc... It goes back forever and on - as long as religion has been thunk up and people tend to forgive the churches mistakes because it's concept is so vast, and wonderous, because it's so mystical, because it offers answers to so many of like tough questions.

Think about it, we're talking this is before computers, telephones, television, radio, etc... Humankind was at a lack of communications. Wouldn't it make sense that everyone would decide on a day and time to all commune? Possible like a town hall or tribal meeting and certainly the eldest and/or the supposed wisest and or most trusted member would speak.

And this is before doctors and science had a chance to fine tune nature and reproduction, a man saw his wife shat out a tiny human and he must've thought

"Women can shit babies!" I.E women give life.

And it is my firm belief that women are the givers of life and should be revered for as much as you think that's worth. I believe whether or not the baby is alive or it's own spirit inside her she is it's goddess and that state for whatever that means. The fetus inside: it's whole universe is her womb, everything outside of this is irrelevant as far as the fetus is concerned and even if it is murder I believe the woman - as the childs goddess and the giver of life - her body it's infinite universe - has the complete right to kill the fetus, abort her pregnancy, and asset her authority as the giver of life.

That is, until the child is outside the womb. Then her womb is no longer it's universe. She has given life and she sieze to become it's goddass as she becomes it's mother.

I don't advocate murder, but I do believe the fetus is in her as the universe, where she rules as goddess of her own body and just as god may destroy us: his creation, she may destroy her creation.

I believe the universe is gods proverbial womb.

And I believe that man worshipped woman because of her mysterious life giving capabilities. Her willingness and want to suffer for her creation, her strength in the pregnancy and the ability to seemingly spontaneously produce good when her creation is hundry, and the devotion, wisdom, and emotional depth - forgiveness that comes along with the responsibilities of being a goddess. Not to mention they naturally live longer on average, take up less resources, are undeniably better looking, and most importantly they were probably better educated.

I make this assumption because man, seeing the power and plight of woman, and having an instinct to mate, and that women are naturally smaller than men on average, and often die during birth, he probably imagined - since one man can impregnate thousands of women, but it takes nine delicate months for a woman to only birth one child, perhaps it would be a good idea if they: the men, went out and put themselves in harms way spearing mammoths and fight the tribal wars, while the women stayed, safe, back at the cave.

Back to why women were probably better educated: the men were spread out, hiding quietly in the bushes, while the women are at the cave killing time. Certainly there was a lot theorize considering scientifically they knew next to nothing. Most tribes probably believed that a higher - greater god was at play and sent babies to the women when they had found the proper mate. And they taught the young children probably similiar things as we teach young children today.: how to talk, get along, play, build, and shared their ideas on where we came from and why we're here.

I imagined they'd believe a higher god at play simply from the flying clouds and the constantly flowing waters. They see things moving and can't understand what's making them move. The stars change, the seasons change, people get old and die. This would explain this - perhaps philosophy that we're all the unborn children of god living in his womb - our seemingly infinite universe. And they accepted him as something important to please for all the same reasons it's important for a child to listen to his mother: they don't know any better.

And sure they see their loved ones die, and see their physical bodies rot, eyes hollow, stink and they learned to anticipate and fear their own demise. They comforted their children and themselves with tales of an afterlife. NDE's probably fueled this. Perhaps, they were reborn into gods realm becoming like god and doing amazing powerful things and because I assume the women were more educated and taught the children, they probably figured to tell their children if they do good as they're told they'll be rewarded and if they're bad god, too, would punish them because god is all their father and we are all waiting only for him to birth us.

And since there probably weren't too many better ideas or way to communicate them over large area the tale probably grew and the teaching women thought up new explanations for lifes many questions.:

Where do we come from? The mother demi goddess.

Where do we go when we die? To live with god in a good place.

What will god do if I'm bad? Deny you rebirth and condemn you to a hundred years over of the pain of darkness and decomposition rotting away in the ground.

The men, having lesser communication skills and the ancient reverence to the female live giving goddess probably took and trusted what the females taught about god and life and death, and the nature of the world around them because they had no better explanation, it explained a lot of unanswerable questions (at the time) and kept the children in line.

But, somewhere over the course of time there was a switch in the sexual power and dominance. Probably caused by tribal warring. I mean, people for the most part still lived nomadically as hunter gatherers in small, clan orientated, tribes. They probably fought mostly over land, personal despuets, and over women (who were probably now being thought of as more of a commodity than anything else) and just knowing the way the media is, this would probably be around the time the first "real" religions were solidified.

I picture them mostly pagan considering they already have a father god and a mother demi goddess. This mother and father struction is common in lot's of older religions. The concept of there being an outside but ever present, all powerful god who created everything (theyby putting us forever in his debt) encompasses everything, and makes all the tough decisions like when you're concieved, when you die, what happens when you die. While the mother demi goddess handles more domestic problems. For instance, she was at liberty to abort her child, she was the wisdom of the earth, personafied. In charge of day to day punishments, rewards, and lessons. She was also probably personafied into a singular idol - an early Virgin Mary, Diana, or Angra Mainyu.

Women almost deinitely had license by god to kill and because of the dicotomy of objectification and power men probably started thinking he does all the dirty work hunting, protecting the home, and pieced together that the big, all emcompassing, father god was male and took that and their natural extra strenght as a sign that men are stronger, more of use, and as they killed and were eager to make an excuse for this and save themselves from gods wrath took the wives tales down in a way more in their favor and probably this is around when, all of a sudden you start to hear of evil and it's characters. Who were mostly female demi goddesses. Witches, murderesses, succubi, etc... Now for the first time there is a document explaining and illustrating the difference between good and evil, what they do in the world, and how to avoid them. Suddenly the question why does a good god allow evil to exists in the world.

But, this concept of god is still like the womb to the fetus. Whether god is bad or good we were made to be as he is. So even if our god is really evil, in his reality, it's irrelevent to humans because god defines the way humans shout be.

And it was thereby assume that if god wants us to be good, and we are in his image, god must be good.

Evils in the world were explained by things such as bad karma, you bisobeyed or displeased god, witches, curses, and plagues, ghosts, spirits, vampires, etc... Other beasts who whatever else they'd been told the document probably insisted that these creatures disliked humans and existed in the name of our misery. They should never be delved in - even thinking about it could result in bad luck and eternal damnation.

As the human race continued to spread and populat the world men built monument in gods honor. Places for the community to congreate in to hear the latest godly instructions.

In order for men to keep women out of the religion business they probably tried to convince them that they were unsafe in the world, and needed men to protect them. They probably also tried to convince them that they were extra suseptable to evils because they give life to humans and the evils hate human life. They also probably convinced them then that marriage was a holy union and that god didn't want procreation of humans with out a clear cut human father, theyby strengthening the important of men to the survival of the species.

This way they took all the power from the woman - leaving the once integral goddess figure an empty idol, no more powerful than a succubi. The mother goddess was probably assigned other purposes: keeper of children, a medium to god, proverbial dictator of the seasons (that way they could blame poor crops, weather, or plagues on the female.)

Certainly this is when women became the subservient homemakers. They'd been convinced this was all in their benefit and that men were just trying to protect them from the evils and preserve their purity and holiness. Virginity became important for obvious reasons - since women couldn't work and were warned against the evils that so eagarly awaited them in all sorts of "mens work" they hid at home, believing it was in their best interest.

Virginity before marriage and monogamy was historyically created as both a population and disease control device, but also as a way to make peace with other tribes. A woman was doing her holy duty as a goddess preserving her offspring for her one mate. Convinced this was protecting them, and seeing how man so exuberantly persued gods approval with new test, new rules, new characters, and new buildings, etc... They trusted men and the father god.

The men probably - for the most part, thought they were doing a good thing, and were convinced of the evils and of an attraction between evils and women, possibly linking evil with women. They were protecting the delicate childbarers who they so needed for survival and the women accepted this and in the name of god - as the men now preached it - she lived her life in a docile fear and state of perpetual weakness which has become it's own psoriosis on the famle side of the species.

There certainly were woman who defied this and there were secret midnight masses to pray to their fertility mother goddess (who akin to them for obvious reasons, so therefore dear, but al they believed she still controlled fertility, and the seasons - the harvest and that she would even cast curses and spells for them.) tied them with the other evils of the night and that prey on reckless women who roam around, alone, at night.

Myths of more evils are born and witches become a common scapegoat. The Church sends out their forces to find and dispose of the evils and whenever there was a poor harvest, it was never too hard to find a woman who fit a witches description to blame it on.

They justified their murders by saying the evils had already taken over her and she was no longer really alive. Or that it's in gods name or to protect the species from succumbing to the ways of evil.

By then it was the middle ages, and the bible had long been written and there were many powerful religious establishments, with pagan religions demonized and moreover highjacked by Christianity into Catholism. The Church of Catholism now had huge monuments, cathedrals, churches, The Vatican, and thousands of clergy members, including females (most of them probably oined to get out of marrying someone or allegations of witch craft). The Church itself now had much of the world under it's thumb. They kept everyone scared of Satanic shadows and witches, performing witch hunts and excorcisms in mass, often ending in violence public displays: beheadings, burning, drownings, crucifixions.

Though I imagine a lot of the clergyt thought they were doing a good thing defending gods way, the purity of women, and ridding the world of the pesky evils who want us to stray from the path of god. But, I think this is probably where it bacme apparent to a lot of the clergy that something was awry in The Church.

Know this: The Catholic Church controls much of the school system and since they'd venomously demonized Judaism in the same of King Harrah - chalking them all up to cannibalistic, desert dogs, who preyed on gentile women and are greedy.

They demonized Hindus and successfully colonized much of the Middle East in an attempt to convert the pagans and save them from eternal damnation and Hell fire under the rule of a new major biblical character: Satan. An arch angel who act smore like a demi god, having tasted free will, and given by god his own domain and angels to serve him in his quest to prove the humans aren't worthy of gods love and should be eliminated. The explanation for why a good god would do this to his children is said that he believes in our devotion to his name so much he's willing to bet on it on an even playing field.

Seems a little reckless to me.

Science, itself was evolving, too and suddenly some previously believed to be mystical phenomenon can be explained and the gore and macabra of all the witch hunting wasn't making them look any better, and while they traveled the world with their charities to feed, and clothes, and save the helpless heathen souls, and totally relishing in and egging on all of the intense conflict between the Jews and the Muslims, in hopes that they would destroy each other.

But, instead the Jews said

"Fuck this shit. We're moving to Europe, where there's more good, more work, and more blonde chicks." Leaving the desert to the Muslims rule, more or less.

Of course that was the last thing The Church wanted the jews to do. And The Church controlled the hospitals, educational system, scientific research, and basically everything else, threatening failure to assemilate with eternal damnation. But, they're threats were lost on the jews.

This proved frustrating and up until then The Church had done a very good job keeping everyong just poor, and scared, and uneducated enough to believe whatever they said and that they were doing a godo thing by executing suspected evils, and moreover they had the general population convinced that intellectualism and education led to corruption. Their justification for this was simple "God was mad at Eve and Adam for eating from The Tree Of Knowledge Of Good and Evil, so therefore, knowledge must be bad."

Over intellectualizing was actually targeted as a womans disdease and women were encouraged not to think ro read or go to school. All they would need to know god would teach them through church and prayer.

They were encouraged to leave scholarly business to the men, who were supposedly now more intelligent and capable of handling and understanding those kinds of things. And it was mostly only the very rich, royalty, and clergy who were even able to afford a formal education. A girl who read or spoke too intelligently would be warned of Eves date - which really wasn't that bad - and they demonized Ever to further intimidate and turn femininity into a disease to be embarrassed of and that men would just have to put up with in order to serve god and preserve the human race. Pregnancy and child birth became humiliating ordeals of which it was the womans duty to deal with silently, ashamed, and alone. The state of the world and the rampid poverty in Europe was blamed on Eve eating the apple. Temptess over the innocent Adam. Menstruation and painful prengancies were said to be Eves punishment for the female side of the species and so women should not complain, but submit to their male counterparts who are taught to be the womans keeper, master, and dictator. A woman was nothing without a man to take care of her and she was doomed to be ashamed of her sexuality and that she was all over a lesser human than a male, loved less by god, and cursed.

However, in Judaism intellectualism was encouraged and had a solid public school system. So, as they spread out through Europe and it was apparent that they were commonly more educated and cultured (as they traveled) The Church couldn't rightfully outwardly genocide or even refuse the jews sanction, since their main god was historically Jewish and they're religion contrived from Judaism.

(Judaism originated in Ethiopia. It was based on a Father God/Mother Goddess combo thing like many of the Central African religious beliefs and societies were matriarchle. The concept of god being completely sexless and just being Elohim "God of all gods" very Zen Buddhist, almost there was no Heaven or Hell. It was believed that each person had lessons to learn from life and after death we spend time learing the lessons we missed until we are perfect and pure enough to become one with god, whose actual form and state of being remain a mystery.

Judaism changed when an Ethiopian religious leader sparked a mass pilgrammage on foot to Egypt, believing it was "the holy land". In Egypt they were immeadiately enslaved and their religion meshed with the Eygptian beliefs the same way pagasnism and christianity melded into catholism.

Egypt brought the Judaism it's first document of religion - The Torah, and several other tests, which are basically poorly trasnlated versions of Egyptian religious texts.)

So the Jews, for allt heir wandering were known for being well educated and crafty. And to a culture who feared these things intensely the entire race was made out to be evil diddling tarot card reading, crystal ball gazing, theiving, gypsy, people with slutty women. Also, since they were mostly still nomadic and unwanted they were mostly traveling peddlars, traveling to and from North Africa and Northern Europe and Russia baring exotic tinkets and drugs.

Moreover it was believed in those days that money was dirty, and women being so suspectable to evil were not to touch it, and the men from respectable families - it was just so they never had to deal in money. INstead Jews were popularily employed as bookkeepers and bankers for the bank of the Catholic Church and later The Church Of England. They were only so popular for this because they were the only people around with a formal education.

This leads to the explanation to why so many of the famous mathematicians and scientists have been Jewish.

Now with the Jews culturally permeating the entire continent with free thinkers who dared to defy the all powerfull church and study in new independant colleges in East India were making silly of The Churchs witch hunting, and ghost busting, and as they intermarried and worked became more fruitfull women finally started realizing they weren't - at least - all stupid and weak. They could learn and they could do a lot of things men could do.

Moving things to a scientific age. The birth of the Americas.

For the first time there was a country based on the concept of free spech, freedom of religion, and the persuit of happiness whatever that may be. I mean, unless you want to be anything other than puritan/protestant, also being a race other than white was a big problem for them.

The first tragedy I suppose was the first winter, when the Pilgrams turned on the practically unarmed natives with their guns. This was sad but not surprising, considering their history. Native Americans, aside from being incredibly complicated and self sufficient cultures, their pagan life styles sparked the fear of starvation into an all out blood bath. Especially since, at the time, thousands of them were dying already from Small Pox, brought over from Europe.

Many of the Pilgram justified the death/killing/genocide accidental or as a plague god sent to get to get rid of the evil pagans who were liars who delved in the evils of mysticism like the pagan who'd been assimiliated back in Europe. It was there belief that god didn't want the pagans because he let them be killed off, assimiliated, thereby taking the human responsibility and placing it as gods will.

It is my belief that god doesn't want these things and that god probably doesn't want anything.

Contraversy surrounding this caused a sudden uprising in piety. Peoples often have increase in piety during times of struggle and transition, both of which the settling inAmerica was for the Pilgrims. I believe humans psychologically need to have something to believe that they can't fully unstand to full appreciate and understand their mysterious existence.

I also believe that in our so-called modern world of robots made in our image, computers take the place of human brains, nuclear bombs, and rockets that invade other planets - and let me be specific: there's a large part that's pretty sure this problem is particuarlily bad in the USA: the problem being - not even so much the sagging educational system, or the constant gnawing of the big liberty gears. Never stopping, constantly producing until don't even know what you're producing it all for. The constant push to consume until we've eexhausted all our natural resources. But, no mind it what's the real trouble is the lack of relf reflection. The way the USA can sit on top of the rest of the world without knowing a thing about it, plant out flag there, and never one thinking of the other countries and cultures (or how they impact up as a country).

The school system is being neglected for several reasons.:

No 1: People who are uneducated are easy to scare.

No. 2: People who are scared are easy to control/manipulate.

No. 3: To Big For Your Britches Syndrom.

North America is surrounded on all sides by thousands of miles of ocean to cross to be invaded, unless we were invaded by some central/southern american country or if some country started a covert operation (as is being done right now) and ate it's way from the inside out.

But, the government never worried/worries about that and is still hand in hand with The Church. And in the depth of a war our government has built on slander and lies just to keep the president from going brankrupt. And they simple keep us busy producing and consuming and worrying, hating ourselves for not producing enough and consuming more evn though we don't know why. But, that's all they ever leave us with.

"Why?" and no one ever gives a straight answer.

It's hard to tell if anyone actually even knows the answer and if they're buying time and saving space. And here were are, ruling the world with a phoney smile and ignoring the fact that if the USA thinks they're such a superior country, culture, and form of government, I dare just one person to be well educated and interested enough - capable of reading this entire post.

Depression, obesity, and anxiety disorders run rampid in the USA, which I believe is caused by two things:

No. 1: Calling the US school system just basic, I think is stretching it. If the USA really supposes itself the great example of humanity, so great we should be ruling the world and converting all cultures into our new and improved produce and consumer obsessed lives, shouldn't we be thinking about our humanity just a little bit more?

How can a country seemingly blind to or simply lacking in empathy for (empathy being the cornerstone of humanity) the many serious problems we have caused or worsened in the world dare to try to rule the world and claim to be an example of humanity and/or the supposed right way to live.

No. 2: The average high school senior cannot locate Russia on a map, does not know the difference between a qoutation mark and a coma, and cannot define the word empathy. Knowing this state is the near future of the USA, what do we have to teach the rest of the world? What kind of enlightenment are we really offering?

The point of all this goes back to humans needing to believe in something they can't fully know is true or possible yet, so they can better understand their own existence.

The government never gives us time to think. Just like when men first figured out how to manipulate women into becoming a subservient side of the species (subconciously encouraging them to fear control, be ashamed of their bodies, and capabilities.) They weren't just denied education and we're not just being denied education, we are made to feel guilty, unproductive, stupid, or crazy to even question the intentions of our nation. I mean, what are out intentions? For the world, of course, but first for ourselves? Why must we produce and consume and made to feel worthless if you simple ask a rhetorical question, especially since we don't appear to be producing anything useful to humanity and that's what we're supposed to be doing, as humans, right? We fancy ourselves real pillars of humanity, right? What is the government/media/church trying to distract us from? If there was an answer would you care? What would you do if you found out what it was?

And forget about the USA government. Forget about being a good American and recognize an American is just a human. What would make this country true would be if we were humane humans, just recognizing we are all sleeping in the same bed together. If someone loses it and pisses the bed, you're not going to just lie there. And you may not like it or want to do it, but it's your job to create humanity. If ever you look around and everything looks like shit and everyone is a production consumption company, unfeeling, and apathetic, and you finally find a second to self reflect and realize The cannot be the human race! You only have yourself to balme.

I believe it is absolutely our jobs as a semi-intelligent species to self reflect, to ask rhetorical questions, to give someone directions, to have freedom, give freedome, and take advantage of freedom. To believe what we do and not be made to feel stupid or useless for believing in something can't yet be proven. To pursue knowledge, and spread knowledge of any kind - without judgement. To speak up and claim you humanity, your sexuality, your philosophy, your capabilities.

Only we can figure out the meaning of our lives, our existence. and whether it matter or not or whether there is a meaning or not just wondering about the facets and possibilities of existence is a step at understanding humanity and making it a reality.

--------------------------------------------

Granted it's a bit off vein, but it clearly illustrates the evolution of religion and a good theory purpose.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

Christianity is the most powerful global movement