So i was talking to a devaught christian friend of mine ( i am agnostic) and i said that it is close minded to say one thing or another... she said that its close minded to say there isnt a god... but it isnt to say there is?

WTF?!??! its the same thing!

Also, if god wanted you to pick HIM and only HIM ... then why did he dump you on the earth in a room full of religions saying "pick the right one... if you pick the wrong one you get sodomized by cattleprods"

Doesnt make sense...

I know youre supposed to have faith.. but me, i dont know what to believe in ... and i cant just believe in "god" out of fear... because if i dont believe in a different religion (muslim, judaism), an equal punishment awaits as well...i cant be all of them, so i try to stay neutral.

Religion is strange...

I suppose thats understandable, however, what if one of the religions are correct?

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

I suppose thats understandable, however, what if one of the religions are correct?

Then the majority of us are going to have a party with the devil...youre invited.

quote:Originally posted by among_the_living:

Then the majority of us are going to have a party with the devil...youre invited.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Don't be sad. BBQ party is always fun!

quote:Originally posted by 666lucifer666:

Also, if god wanted you to pick HIM and only HIM ... then why did he dump you on the earth in a room full of religions saying "pick the right one... if you pick the wrong one you get sodomized by cattleprods"



Lucifer my friend, you are intelligent and openminded, and yet you still doubt the gospel of our Lord?

Lucifer means "Lightbringer", and he was the one who cast light on all the hypocrosy and lies in Gods very own vision of the world. Therefore your name strikes me as slightly ironic. For Lucifer was appointed by God to oppose God, because as God cast his eyes over his kingdom, he saw only one Angel who was already saved-Lucifer.

Yes my friends, the first to enter the kingdom of heaven will be the Devil himself.

How do we know that our God is the one true God?

God said "Ye shall have no God before me". Why was that. Well, firstly it shows that God does not claim to be the only God. secondly it shows that God will be first among all the Gods, in other words, out Christian God is rather like Odin, the Viking God, in that Odin was the wisest God, and spent all his time preparing for Ragnarok, a final battle which the Gods were destined to lose.

In the same way, out Lord spent his time preparing for the coming of the "Son of Man" his begotten son, the lord Jesus Christ. It was this Son that the Lord offered up on the cross to atone for mankinds sins and to heal the rift between man and God. Rejoyce, for you are living in the era of penance, when mankind will set aside sin and be taken, bodily, into paradise, to live with our Gods forever in an eternity of happiness and peace and love. We wait humbly and eagerly for the coming of the lord and the ressurection of the dead.

This is not a new idea, in fact it was learnt first by manking at the Council of Trent, hundreds of years ago.

Alas, the path to neverending life is not level, and there are protestants, heathens, heretics and false prophets to overcome. Through acts of faith, YOU can redeem these fallen souls, through prayer and acts of kindness you can give them, selflessly, the gift of eternal life.

Do not preach, and do not follow, for the world already has lots of preachers and followers, but let your gentle actions be the way and the guide to these people, be as a beacon onto them, and lead them onto the light of the Lord.

Let us pray...

It's the ultimate and most transparent carrot stick you can find.

Issue, when you are finished preaching maybe you can go back and read your bible. Lucifer was not an Angel.

Agnosticism is the most open-minded spiritual designation there is... so you're friend is a moron, and a christian.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Issue, when you are finished preaching maybe you can go back and read your bible. Lucifer was not an Angel.

From Wikipedia:

Lucifer is a Latin word made up of two words, lux (light; genitive lucis) and ferre (to bear, to bring), meaning light-bearer. Lucifer does not appear in Greek or Roman mythology; it is used by poets to represent the Morning Star at moments when "Venus" would intrude distracting imagery of the goddess. "Lucifer" is Jerome's direct translation in his Vulgate (4th century) of the Septuagint's Greek translation, as heosphoros, "morning star" or "Day Star," literally "bringer of the Dawn", of a phrase in from Isaiah 14:12 that originally intended no reference to Satan (see below). From the viewpoint of the Christian mythology that developed after Jerome, Lucifer came to be seen as having been second in command to God himself; he was the highest archangel in heaven, but he was motivated by pride and greed to rebel against God and was cast out of heaven by Archangel Michael. Lucifer was also followed by some angels. Then he became the Devil, and his followers were known as demons.

----



"Lucifer" in the Christian tradition

Jerome, with the Septuagint close at hand and a general familiarity with the pagan poetic traditions, translated Helel as "Lucifer". Much of Christian tradition also draws on interpretations of Revelation 12:5 ("He was thrown down, that ancient serpent"; see also 12:7 and 12:100) in equating the ancient serpent-god with the serpent in the Garden of Eden and the fallen star, Lucifer, with Satan. Accordingly, Tertullian (Contra Marrionem, v. 11, 17), Origen (Ezekiel Opera, iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan.

Homer's description of the supernatural fall

"the whole day long I was carried headlong, and at sunset I fell in Lemnos, and but little life was in me"

relates the fall of Hephaestus from Olympus in the Iliad I:591ff, and the fall of the Titans was similarly described by Hesiod; through popular epitomes these traditions were drawn upon by Christian authors embellishing the fall of Lucifer.

In the fully-developed Christian interpretation, Jerome's Vulgate translation of Isaiah 14:12 has made Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel, who must lament the loss of his original glory as the morning star. This image at last defines the character of Lucifer; where the Church Fathers had maintained that lucifer was not the proper name of the Devil, and that it referred rather to the state from which he had fallen; St. Jerome transformed it into Satan's proper name.

It is noteworthy that the Old Testament itself does not at any point actually mention the rebellion and fall of Satan directly. This non-Scriptural belief assembled from interpretations of different passages, would fall under the heading Christian mythology, except that the very idea of a Christian mythology is widely attacked as offensive. For detailed discussion of the "War in Heaven" theme, see Fallen angel.

In the Vulgate, the word lucifer is used elsewhere: it describes the Morning Star (the planet Venus), the "light of the morning" (Job 11:17); the "signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32) and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). In the New Testament, "Jesus Christ" (in II Peter 1:19) with "lucifer".

Not all references in the New Testament to the morning star refer to Lucifer, however; in Revelation:

Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

In the Eastern Empire, where Greek was the language, "morning star" (heosphorus) retained these earlier connotations. When Liutprand, bishop of Cremona, attended the Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus II in 968, he reported to his master Otto I the greeting sung to the emperor arriving in Hagia Sophia:

"Behold the morning star approaches, Eos rises; he reflects in his glances the rays of the sun— he the pale death of the Saracens, Nicephorus the ruler." [1]

---

Pwned.

quote:Originally posted by 666lucifer666:

So i was talking to a devaught christian friend of mine ( i am agnostic) and i said that it is close minded to say one thing or another... she said that its close minded to say there isnt a god... but it isnt to say there is?

WTF?!??! its the same thing!

She might be equating closed mindedness with thinking negatively...???

quote:Originally posted by 666lucifer666:

I know youre supposed to have faith.. but me, i dont know what to believe in ... and i cant just believe in "god" out of fear... because if i dont believe in a different religion (muslim, judaism), an equal punishment awaits as well...i cant be all of them, so i try to stay neutral.

Then believe in "god" out of love, not fear. Just remember...it's the religion, or the religious teaching that you don't believe in...it doesn't have to mean that you don't believe in God.



[This message has been edited by outcast (edited 09-25-2005).]

Lucifer was God's highest angel, as stated previously. When he rebeled (which he did because he thought he was equal to God), one third of all the angels in heaven were on Lucifer's side. So 1/3 of all angels were cast out.

To the original poster, who said "I know you're supposed to have faith, but I don't know what to believe in"; faith is about feeling. CS Lewis describes man's desire for religion as such:

"Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exist. A baby has hunger; there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim; there is such a thing as water. A man has sexual desires; there is such a thing as sex." He then implies we have a deep-seated desire to have a relationship with our Creator, but many of us mistake it for something else. He goes on to say, "If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probably explanation is that I was made for another world. If none of my earthly pleasures satisfy it, that does not prove that the universe is a fraud. Probably earth pleasures were never meant to satisfy it, but only to arouse it, to suggest the real thing. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consiousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever."

Freud recognized a similar desire himself. He used the German word "Sehnsucht", the same word Lewis used to describe the desire.

Source: "The Question of God" by Dr. Armand Nicholi

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Lucifer was God's highest angel, as stated previously. When he rebeled (which he did because he thought he was equal to God)

Which shows God is not omnipotent for serveral reasons.

Issue: I told you to go read your bible. Did you? Doesn't look like it. Maybe you should actually read it for a change. (see bellow)

It's damn amazing how many christians don't seem to read their own holy book, or worse, quote mine from it. How can anyone trust their religion as the one and true correct path if they can't even get their book right?

below:

You didn't even read the wikipedia article.

"phrase in from Isaiah 14:12 that originally intended no reference to Satan (see below)"

You dishonestly cut out the part that shows the bible never says Lucifer is satan and actually says he is a man.

"Isaiah 14 starts out discussing the King of Babylon, and the reference "morning star, son of the dawn" originally applied specifically to that king's pride:

14:4 And you shall bear this parable against the king of Babylon, and you shall say, "How has the dominator ceased, has ceased the haughty one!

14:10 All of them shall speak up and say to you, 'Have you too become weak like us? Have you become like us?'

14:11 Your pride has been lowered into Gehinnom, the stirring of your psalteries. Maggots are spread under you, and worms cover you.

14:12 How have you fallen from heaven, Lucifer, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations.

(Isaiah, Judaica Press Tanach)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

You also pasted, "From the viewpoint of the Christian mythology that developed after Jerome, Lucifer came to be seen as having been second in command to God himself;"

In other words, Lucifer as satan is a man made idea and doesn't specifically exist in the bible.

Again, if you are dishonest, how can we trust you about religion?

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

Which shows God is not omnipotent for serveral reasons.

Mind stating them? Oh wait, you can't. Because it proves the opposite. Satan's rebellion only further proves that God is omnipotent. How?

Omnipotence is a single state of absolute perfection and absolute power. Being an absolute, there can be no 2 conflicting perfections. Therefore, the only way for God to create a being seperate from himself is to create an imperfect being. Should He create a perfect being, that being would be omnipotent as He is, all-knowing, all-powerful. It would also think the same as God thinks, as God's thoughts are the only true perfect thoughts. So God has not created a perfect being, but just another reality of Himself.

An omnipotent being cannot create omnipotent beings, it can only further its own omnipotence by creating mirrored realities of itself. There is only 1 perfection. So in all of God's creations, angels, humans, there is a level of imperfection so that they are a seperate being from God, so they can have their own thoughts. There are two kinds of beings, those which are perfect and those which aren't. God, the Holy Ghost, and Jesus were all perfect beings. Therefore, they are all God. They all know all, they are all eternal, they all think the same. They are one, but seperate. All other beings in the universe must carry some form of imperfection else they are simply another image of God.

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 09-25-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Omnipotence is a single state of absolute perfection and absolute power. Being an absolute, there can be no 2 conflicting perfections. Therefore, the only way for God to create a being seperate from himself is to create an imperfect being.

An omnipotent being cannot create omnipotent beings, it can only further its own omnipotence by creating mirrored realities of itself. There is only 1 perfection. So in all of God's creations, angels, humans, there is a level of imperfection so that they are a seperate being from God, so they can have their own thoughts.



Thats a fascinating idea Elephantitis Man.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Issue: I told you to go read your bible. Did you?

It's damn amazing how many christians don't seem to read their own holy book,

Again, if you are dishonest, how can we trust you about religion?



you are a heathen and a sinner. May god have mercy upon your soul.

(Also you are an idiot for not getting it. Shut up.)



[This message has been edited by Issue313 (edited 09-25-2005).]

"you are a heathen and a sinner. May god have mercy upon your soul."

Ahahaha, awesome reply.

Now go read your bible.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

"you are a heathen and a sinner. May god have mercy upon your soul."

Ahahaha, awesome reply.

Now go read your bible.



Haha. Self Pwn.

I love the way these kiddy atheists latch on to a trendy philosophy and act all snooty, lording it over everyone else with their menial intelligence and simplistic intellect.

You sir, will most assuredly end up in hell.

its funny how people just concentrate on my screenname...



http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)



Oh well, but yeah i have faith that there is a god, just what? i dont know...

Lots of people may consider that to be antiagnostic... but ... i dunno...



[This message has been edited by 666lucifer666 (edited 09-27-2005).]

There may be a god. There may not. To me, that is open mindedness. Personally, when I see the marvels of evolution in the fossil record, the complexities of the human body, or how my nephews are growing from tiny blobs into magical human beings, that makes me think there must be some sort of god nudging all this along.

Then I get some preaching from some BONEHEAD telling me if I don't worship god as he is described in the King James Version of the Bible I'm going to burn in hell, and then I think I know that THAT god doesn't exist!

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Again, if you are dishonest, how can we trust you about religion?



And this is coming from someone who uses Jerome to back up his statements...

SELF-PWNED!

Argon,

are you sure you read things right? I didn't use Jerome to back up my statements. I used the bible. Although it contains Jerome's translation to Lucifer, it also shows that Lucifer wasn't satan. You can replace Lucifer with Venus if you want, and it would kill the verse that most christians claim Satan fell from heaven.

Is it possible someone on totse can make a more intelligent statement than Pwnd? Or has that becoming a sign of wanting to run away but not have your pride hurt (such as Issue).

quote:Originally posted by Issue313:

I love the way these kiddy atheists latch on to a trendy philosophy and act all snooty, lording it over everyone else with their menial intelligence and simplistic intellect.

You sir, will most assuredly end up in hell.

Uhuh



As opposed to kiddy zealots latching on to a trendy creed and then lording it over everyone else with their over-zealous idiocy and their illogical creed

quote:Originally posted by Issue313:

Lucifer my friend, you are intelligent and openminded, and yet you still doubt the gospel of our Lord?

Lucifer means "Lightbringer", and he was the one who cast light on all the hypocrosy and lies in Gods very own vision of the world. Therefore your name strikes me as slightly ironic. For Lucifer was appointed by God to oppose God, because as God cast his eyes over his kingdom, he saw only one Angel who was already saved-Lucifer.

Yes my friends, the first to enter the kingdom of heaven will be the Devil himself.

How do we know that our God is the one true God?

God said "Ye shall have no God before me". Why was that. Well, firstly it shows that God does not claim to be the only God. secondly it shows that God will be first among all the Gods, in other words, out Christian God is rather like Odin, the Viking God, in that Odin was the wisest God, and spent all his time preparing for Ragnarok, a final battle which the Gods were destined to lose.

In the same way, out Lord spent his time preparing for the coming of the "Son of Man" his begotten son, the lord Jesus Christ. It was this Son that the Lord offered up on the cross to atone for mankinds sins and to heal the rift between man and God. Rejoyce, for you are living in the era of penance, when mankind will set aside sin and be taken, bodily, into paradise, to live with our Gods forever in an eternity of happiness and peace and love. We wait humbly and eagerly for the coming of the lord and the ressurection of the dead.

This is not a new idea, in fact it was learnt first by manking at the Council of Trent, hundreds of years ago.

Alas, the path to neverending life is not level, and there are protestants, heathens, heretics and false prophets to overcome. Through acts of faith, YOU can redeem these fallen souls, through prayer and acts of kindness you can give them, selflessly, the gift of eternal life.

Do not preach, and do not follow, for the world already has lots of preachers and followers, but let your gentle actions be the way and the guide to these people, be as a beacon onto them, and lead them onto the light of the Lord.

Let us pray...



Are you running for Jesus or something?

I'd vote for you

quote:Originally posted by 666lucifer666:

So i was talking to a devaught christian friend of mine ( i am agnostic) and i said that it is close minded to say one thing or another... she said that its close minded to say there isnt a god... but it isnt to say there is?

WTF?!??! its the same thing!

Also, if god wanted you to pick HIM and only HIM ... then why did he dump you on the earth in a room full of religions saying "pick the right one... if you pick the wrong one you get sodomized by cattleprods"

Doesnt make sense...

I know youre supposed to have faith.. but me, i dont know what to believe in ... and i cant just believe in "god" out of fear... because if i dont believe in a different religion (muslim, judaism), an equal punishment awaits as well...i cant be all of them, so i try to stay neutral.

Religion is strange...



You know what, I am a christian. To me to be narrow minded is to be unteachable. If you're teachable, you're not narrow minded, if you're not, then chances are, that you are. So, are you teachable?



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 10-07-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Issue313:

I love the way these kiddy atheists latch on to a trendy philosophy and act all snooty, lording it over everyone else with their menial intelligence and simplistic intellect.

You sir, will most assuredly end up in hell.



Actually after that comment I won't vote for you and you should read your bible retard. Thou shall not judge the living for only God may judge.

FAG!

quote:Originally posted by Tr1p:



Actually after that comment I won't vote for you and you should read your bible retard. Thou shall not judge the living for only God may judge.

FAG!

Man, I'll judge whoever I want. Are you not allowed to point out the faults of another.

Actually I want to make something clear, I'm atheist/polytheist and I just wrote that to amuse myself because I was thinking of some things some preachers had said to explain the events in the new Testament to atheists. Now that I have, I don't think of it anymore. Catharsis!

I hope my scrawl brought you amusement.