I read it over and over, "for God so loved the world..." "Jesus loves you" "etc."

Okay, God loves me. Why? If I created something in my image and it cursed me, broke my rules, defiled my temple, killed my son and my freinds, etc, I wouldn't love them. Why does God love something so vile as humanity?

When a parent has a child that curses them, breaks their rules, destroys their house, and hurts their siblings, do the parents hate the child?

When Jesus was on the cross He cried, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". That is it. Those who don't know God. They do not know what they do. We are all like children to Him.

How can a perfect being be constrained by love to begin with?

Hmm I don't know if one should say he's constrained by love. Maybe it's more of a strength than a weakness, who's to say?

Maybe love is all that god is?

If God is love then doesn't it destroy the whole notion of the creator in the sky, the personal God?

Like people who advocate God being a superstring, it destroys the other notions of God.

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

How can a perfect being be constrained by love to begin with?

He chooses to. The same reason you yourself constrain to not run over animals when you see them.

A perfect being doesn't have the luxary of choice - everything it does must be perfect or it couldn't possibly be perfect ergo the question still stands.

simple answer: its all bull

its odd. im no christian but i go to church with my gf sometimes - she likes that. anyhow, they read out of the new testament and the old, but they seem to pick the bits that suite them. they talk about god loving them and neglect to mention "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," and all the other vengefull god stuff from the old testament.

im told that 80 years ago - according to the church - god was a lot less forgiving than he is today. is this a fad or does god have moodswings?

[This message has been edited by darth_vector (edited 09-26-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by darth_vector:

its odd. im no christian but i go to church with my gf sometimes - she likes that. anyhow, they read out of the new testament and the old, but they seem to pick the bits that suite them. they talk about god loving them and neglect to mention "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," and all the other vengefull god stuff from the old testament.

im told that 80 years ago - according to the church - god was a lot less forgiving than he is today. is this a fad or does god have moodswings?



80 years ago the church didn't have to contend with contraception and consumerism.

But then their market share started to shrink. The spiritual shoppers were turning their backs on churchs block-busting GOD brand, collection boxes weren't rattling anymore more and their stalwart confession and holy communion products where becoming so last summer.

So in 1962 the CEO (the pope) called the board of directors (the cardinals) to an extended (3yr) meeting and decided the time had come to change the packaging and rebrand to a fresher, shinier, smiley new GOD product.

And that's the story of how God became Mr Nice Guy.

You can seriously believe that humanity is loved by a supreme being? If you see how the largest percentage gets by, you would reach the conclusion that we are simply ignored, if not hated.

^^ lol, i love it!

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

When a parent has a child that curses them, breaks their rules, destroys their house, and hurts their siblings, do the parents hate the child?

When Jesus was on the cross He cried, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". That is it. Those who don't know God. They do not know what they do. We are all like children to Him.

^^ That's right. They don't know love either, they look for it, but until you know God's love you don't know love. That's why we are to be the light of the world and love them where they are. Our lifestyles are to be witnesses to the world.

Sadly, alot of the 'christians' have turned so many people away from wanting to go to church. We have the highest divorce rate, and the highest abortion rate. What that says is, the world has gotten into the church, and not the church into the world.

We should be living the life, we say they should be living. "Practice what you preach." We should be living it before we even think about preaching it. I know, it's "Don't look at me look at Jesus." Well, Jesus lives in us, no we're not perfect, but we shouldn't be like the world either, especially if we're not of the world.

Reason why! You have christians who are too content, and don't read their bibles. Well, how are you suppose to discern what you're hearing if you're not reading the word of God yourself? You have unbelievers who can quote more scripture than a believer, granted they don't have the eyes of their heart flooded with understanding, but we are able to understand. There isn't a lack of revelation, there's a lack of unction to read the word of God, a lack of discipline, rather.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



Sadly, alot of the 'christians' have turned so many people away from wanting to go to church.

If i recall rightly ,hellzshellz, it was you (and people like you) who made me faintly disgusted by christians in general. I remeber that post that sprang up where upon saying everyone with beliefs that were'nt the same as your own were stupid.

I also remeber my ramble on about love ,and you simply said "believe or go to hell" (I admit to a little editing there and your words were not so blunt ,but still..) It is this attitude that sickens me . You tell me that god loves me and forgives me. Yet you then say if i don't fall on my knees i go to hell. God loves and forgives me ,yet even though I attempt to live a good life because i blaspheme i burn for eternity.

Surely no Loving being could do this?

The church has corrupted god ,they have corrupted christianity. There are so few christians and good people ,some of the most stupid and selfish people are religious hiding behind a cloak of self righteous piety ,thess same people who claim to want to save your soul will oly do so through threats.

Any true god would not want worship ,he wwould want the happiness of his childeren. Does a parent demand love form there children or else eternally damn them? no ,and neither would god.

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

If God is love then doesn't it destroy the whole notion of the creator in the sky, the personal God?

Like people who advocate God being a superstring, it destroys the other notions of God.



We 'know' God via the expression of 'love' that has been given us. In that way, 'God is love'...

I believe it is how we recognize God, ourselves, and others.

Love is falling into the sacred.

Or, at least that's how I see it.

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

How can a perfect being be constrained by love to begin with?

Since when would love be a constraint for a perfect being?

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

If i recall rightly ,hellzshellz, it was you (and people like you) who made me faintly disgusted by christians in general. I remeber that post that sprang up where upon saying everyone with beliefs that were'nt the same as your own were stupid.

I also remeber my ramble on about love ,and you simply said "believe or go to hell" (I admit to a little editing there and your words were not so blunt ,but still..) It is this attitude that sickens me . You tell me that god loves me and forgives me. Yet you then say if i don't fall on my knees i go to hell. God loves and forgives me ,yet even though I attempt to live a good life because i blaspheme i burn for eternity.

Surely no Loving being could do this?

The church has corrupted god ,they have corrupted christianity. There are so few christians and good people ,some of the most stupid and selfish people are religious hiding behind a cloak of self righteous piety ,thess same people who claim to want to save your soul will oly do so through threats.

Any true god would not want worship ,he wwould want the happiness of his childeren. Does a parent demand love form there children or else eternally damn them? no ,and neither would god.





I was wrong for that, and I apologize. God does love you, and I should have been representing the love of God, not sowing seeds of fear, but of love. I'm seriously sorry.

No, but our parents do let us make our own mistakes, and love us anyway. Paul said NOTHING can keep us from the love of God.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God's patient. We're not waiting on him, He's waiting on us. He's patient enough to wait for you to come to him, but he knows that alot will not accept him. Nonetheless Jesus died for ALL sinners.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 10-04-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

When a parent has a child that curses them, breaks their rules, destroys their house, and hurts their siblings, do the parents hate the child?

Such a terrible analogy. I've heard it waaay to often.

a.) The parents did not not only create the child, but also the situation he was in and everything else that would influence how he acted. They do not know what he will do.

b.) Do parents torture their child?

c.) Parents are not all-powerful. They punish because they cannot just make their child see. "Punishment" as in pain is a primitive human alternative.

d.) Parents would prevent the action if possible, but they usually can't.

e.) Finally, no parent punishes their child forever with no chance of repentance. It defeats the purpose of punishment in the first place, that is, to discipline and make better. If you never stop being punished, what's the point?

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Such a terrible analogy. I've heard it waaay to often.

a.) The parents did not not only create the child, but also the situation he was in and everything else that would influence how he acted. They do not know what he will do.

b.) Do parents torture their child?

c.) Parents are not all-powerful. They punish because they cannot just make their child see. "Punishment" as in pain is a primitive human alternative.

d.) Parents would prevent the action if possible, but they usually can't.

e.) Finally, no parent punishes their child forever with no chance of repentance. It defeats the purpose of punishment in the first place, that is, to discipline and make better. If you never stop being punished, what's the point?

First of all, God chastises those that are his children. He knows everything we're going to do before we do it, but there is still a decision to be made. Chances are those who do end up going to Hell, did get see punishment,or the consequences of their decisions. God's speaking to everyone, it's a matter of us making a situation so bad that we're finally able to be in a position to HEAR what God has to say. I know it was like that for me. It's like, "Alright, I can do nothing apart from you, SHOW ME, TELL ME! I'm listening NOW."

Not just that, I find if I'd had listened to other people before I did more than half of the things I did do, I wouldn't have done them. God speaks through people to, it's a matter of being open enough to receive.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 10-04-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Since when would love be a constraint for a perfect being?

My apologies I meant omnipotent.

Even then, how would love be a constraint?

Well an omnipotent being that has to love you, as with the Judeo-Christian God (all loving, all powerful, all knowing) would be constrained by it.

Then again I guess since it's omnipotent it could not love you and love you at the same time, I don't know how that'd effect the all loving part though.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Even then, how would love be a constraint?

Emotional attachment.

quote:Originally posted by quasicurus:

Emotional attachment.



I think that what Paradise Lost is saying is that God cannot be defined nor constrained.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

quote:Originally posted by TerminatorVinitiatoR:

simple answer: its all bull

That is not the simple answer. It raises an infinite number of questions more complex and difficult than the one asked here.

quote:Originally posted by Paradise Lost:

Well an omnipotent being that has to love you, as with the Judeo-Christian God (all loving, all powerful, all knowing) would be constrained by it.

Then again I guess since it's omnipotent it could not love you and love you at the same time, I don't know how that'd effect the all loving part though.

If we're talking from a christian perspective, God doesn't love us all because he is obligated to, he does it because he loves us all. It's like parents who continues to love their child, through thick and thin.

God would be in no way, shape, or form constrained by his love for us.

http://www.greatbooks.org/library/religions/christianity/love/corinthians.shtml

Maybe you can explain how the biblical definition of love would constrain god, because I just don't see it.

this may seem like alittle much, but this is where movies got it right. when some of you say Gods turned his back on us or hates us. i always think about the futurama epi where bender met "god". and "god" told him 'if you do too much people become too dependent, if you do too little people begin to lose faith, but if you do things just right people can't be sure you did anything at all.'God dosnt hate us, why would he. the Bible says he has infinate patience and compassion for his children. i know i couldnt and thats why i sin im inperfect and being it makes it that much harder for me to understand and comprehend God and his actions. also when someone breaks your rules, are you nessicerly going to hate them? they pay the consequence and ask for forgivness why continue hating them. God will punish those who deserve it so we really dont have to worry about that. its just like what your parents told you 'we punish you because we love you' and about the original question why does God love us. i say we'll never know until we go to heaven

quote:Originally posted by another god:

this may seem like alittle much, but this is where movies got it right. when some of you say Gods turned his back on us or hates us. i always think about the futurama epi where bender met "god". and "god" told him 'if you do too much people become too dependent, if you do too little people begin to lose faith, but if you do things just right people can't be sure you did anything at all.'God dosnt hate us, why would he. the Bible says he has infinate patience and compassion for his children. i know i couldnt and thats why i sin im inperfect and being it makes it that much harder for me to understand and comprehend God and his actions. also when someone breaks your rules, are you nessicerly going to hate them? they pay the consequence and ask for forgivness why continue hating them. God will punish those who deserve it so we really dont have to worry about that. its just like what your parents told you 'we punish you because we love you' and about the original question why does God love us. i say we'll never know until we go to heaven



I agree, God will punish those who deserve it, but Matthew 5:44 comes into play. Love your enemies, bless those that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use and persecute you. If you LOVE your enemies, then you're not going to be praying a prayer like this, "God, Ya know I forgive them, but I want to be there when they are paid back." No, because then you just lied to yourself. If you love them and really forgive them you're going to be praying, "Father God, open the eyes of their heart and flood them with revelation, give them insight and and understanding, into the deep and intimate knowledge of You. Get them into a position to HEAR you, in Jesus name. Amen(So be it)." You don't say to them, "God's going to get you." No, you say, "God's going to show you something." You have to be careful of the seeds you sow as a christian. You have to be careful not to sow bad seeds into someone's life, because Christians do have the authority in Jesus name, and can speak into other people's lives. We all know, there is a harvest to the seeds we sow. Don't you want a good and fruitful harvest?

Personally, I like to get the last word when I'm talking to someone. So even if they offend me I'll end up saying something along the lines of, "Well, it's alright, I'm just going to LOVE the hell out of." And that's what we have to do. We have to Effectually and fervently pray, and love the hell out of people, the love God has for us should flow through us towards them. When they ask, "How? Why?" Then you say, "God." God want's to show off through us.



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 10-07-2005).]