As many of you may know I'm very pro-choice. I'm so pro-choice I don't even really like to discuss it with people who aren't, because it only annoys me and I refuse to be one of those people who tries to tell other people what to believe.

But, I have this friend (we'll call him John) who slept with a friend of mine (we'll call her Suzie) and the condom broke. I'd never known he was anti-abortion before, and when he told me I kind of laughed. I thought he was joking. I just said

"I think it's funny when men think their opinions on abortion matter. That's like me having an opinion on circumsicion." and then, just for speculation I voiced my opinion to him. Then he was all of a sudden serious and like

"No. Really. I'm anti-abortion."

and I was like "Wait. Really? Are you a Christian?"

"Yea." He said.

"O, well, then..." The conversation became difficult for me. "Well, you know she'll probably want an abortion." I told him. "If she wants one, what are you going to do?"

He tells me "Well, I'm not paying for one." He says he's trying to get her the morning after pill. So I tell him

"John, just to let you know - I mean, if this is a spiritual Christian thing - the morning after pill is a form of abortion. And under the eyes of the Christian faith it's considered just as wrong."

Suddenly he got very forklempt. He really didn't want her to get an abortion, but it was definite that she would want one if she was pregnant. So, I told him this:

"Alright, John, listen: if your back is to a wall - your back is to a fucking wall. If she wants an abortion, you may not like it and it may be against your beliefs, but it would make you an even worse Christian to make her go through all that by herself. Because then, not only aren't you stopping the abortion from happening, but you're turning your back on someone in their time of need, and a time of need you helped put them in. So, it may be wrong, but you might just have to choose the lesser of two evils. I'm sure you'll do the right thing."

I mean, John is a good guy.

I think the whole point with this thread is, in Christianity and any religion there's a lot of things that are considered wrong and bad to do. But, sometimes as living people we have to make bad choices. We can't always do the right thing because sometimes doing what seems right makes things worse someway else.

I'd also like to specify that I also said at the end that I'm not trying to change his mind about anything. I mean, if he's anti-abortion, that's fine with me - as long as he's a good Christian about it. Which means turning the other cheek for those who aren't, and means being empathetic for those in need, no matter what the situation. That's the great thing about Christianity. It allows you room for mistakes, because we're not perfect people and even if we were, we're not living in a perfect world.

I will just never sleep with him and will avoid the subject forever from here on out with him.

Cheers,

Lost

I don't understand why she is so adament about getting an abortion. I have a rather different view on abortion due to the fact that:

My father was a date rapist. I never met him. At the time that I was concieved my mother was a 4.0 college student, full ride scholarship, head nurse of her wing in a hospital, on her way to becoming a nurse practitioner. She had a life of success awaiting her and she was raped. Every one of her close friends and colleagues urged her to get an abortion. Did she? Obviously not. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Now I've shared why I, despite the fact that I am a guy, have a very good reason to be pro-life. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Also I think it is good that he refuses to pay for it. Being a good Christian does not mean support people as they make mistakes, but to support them as they realize their faults.

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 10-09-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

I don't understand why she is so adament about getting an abortion. I have a rather different view on abortion due to the fact that:

My father was a date rapist. I never met him. At the time that I was concieved my mother was a 4.0 college student, full ride scholarship, head nurse of her wing in a hospital, on her way to becoming a nurse practitioner. She had a life of success awaiting her and she was raped. Every one of her close friends and colleagues urged her to get an abortion. Did she? Obviously not. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Now I've shared why I, despite the fact that I am a guy, have a very good reason to be pro-life. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Also I think it is good that he refuses to pay for it. Being a good Christian does not mean support people as they make mistakes, but to support them as they realize their faults.



I have two things to say to that.

No. 1: I personally believe that if you had been aborted, you wouldn't've "cared". You care now because now you're an independant person with independant thought. But, I don't believe a fetus is an independant person with independant thought. So...

No. 2: I disagree with that last statement. Simply because that's assuming that Christianity is a perfect religion and by being a perfect religion it would defeat the purpose of being Christian. The point of Christianity is that it's a human religion, unlike Judaism. It has a personal god, it has prophets and mediums that god speaks through to get to people. Even Jesus was flawed.

And (not to go around in circles) helping her realize her mistake is assuming she is making a mistake. Whereas, if you were a good christian you would look the other way at her mistake and you would say that it is her mistake to make and you should be helping her in her time of need nomatter what. I'm not saying get out a knife and cut the baby out yourself, but the point is you can "assume" that she's making a mistake, but by not helping her you definitely are making a mistake. Because nobody is perfect, even good christians.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

No. 1: I personally believe that if you had been aborted, you wouldn't've "cared". You care now because now you're an independant person with independant thought. But, I don't believe a fetus is an independant person with independant thought. So...

So...am I not supposed to be thankful that I wasn't aborted because if I was, I wouldn't have cared anyway? Um...I'm sorry I'm thankful to be alive? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

quote:No. 2: I disagree with that last statement. Simply because that's assuming that Christianity is a perfect religion and by being a perfect religion it would defeat the purpose of being Christian. The point of Christianity is that it's a human religion, unlike Judaism. It has a personal god, it has prophets and mediums that god speaks through to get to people. Even Jesus was flawed.

And (not to go around in circles) helping her realize her mistake is assuming she is making a mistake. Whereas, if you were a good christian you would look the other way at her mistake and you would say that it is her mistake to make and you should be helping her in her time of need nomatter what. I'm not saying get out a knife and cut the baby out yourself, but the point is you can "assume" that she's making a mistake, but by not helping her you definitely are making a mistake. Because nobody is perfect, even good christians.

Cheers,

Lost

Jesus was most definitely not flawed. Saying so almost invalidates your whole perception of Christianity, as its a crucial part of the Christian doctrine that Jesus was the only perfect man ever to have lived.

Second, you are victimizing her. "Helping her in a time of need." Did you know...there are women out there who actually would like to be pregnant? Fancy that. A women who wants to be a mother. You're acting as though she's going through some great trial or tribulation. She's not even facing it. She's aborting it. She is taking a situation that could be made good and making the worst of it. And you expect this guy to 'help' her in doing so?

Say your mother had an abortion. where would you be now? the argument is a spiritual one, and it depends on whether or not souls or reincarnation exists and other tripe like that. say you press your girl not to have an abortion, and she dies during childbirth. how much of a good christian does that make you?

not that it matters anyway. Abortion is used by senators and politicians to appeal to a certain group of people to get votes. its a stupid issue that shouldnt require debate. Its up to the girl, totally up to her.

"So...am I not supposed to be thankful that I wasn't aborted because if I was, I wouldn't have cared anyway? Um...I'm sorry I'm thankful to be alive?"

- No. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be glad you weren't aborted, I'm saying that I believe that if you were, you probably wouldn't" have cared.

[B] Jesus was most definitely not flawed. Saying so almost invalidates your whole perception of Christianity, as its a crucial part of the Christian doctrine that Jesus was the only perfect man ever to have lived.[b]

- Depends on what Bible you're reading from. If you're reading from King James (the most revised and misqouted one) then, you're right, he was flawless. In the King James version they completely neglect to mention not only Jesus' moment of doubt when approached by Satan, but they don't mention his moment of doubt on the cross. And they gloss over the fact that he savagedly beat and left several men for dead after they trashed a temple. Now, that doesn't sound very Christian to me. First of all, because it was a temple (joke), second of all because you're supposed to turn the other cheek - not respond with violence.

But, listen. I'm not telling you that Jesus isn't a prophet or man or whatever worth worshipping. He obviously was a very great man, but according to the first two versions of the bible, he was flawed.

[b]"Second, you are victimizing her. "Helping her in a time of need." Did you know...there are women out there who actually would like to be pregnant? Fancy that. A women who wants to be a mother. You're acting as though she's going through some great trial or tribulation. She's not even facing it. She's aborting it. She is taking a situation that could be made good and making the worst of it. And you expect this guy to 'help' her in doing so?"

- This isn't an argument about whether or not abortion is right or wrong. I'm not going to argue that with you. And I'm not going to take your opinion seriously because you will never even ever be able to fathom in the slightest what it might possibly be like to have to carry a child you don't want. And about other women wanting to have children - there is no shortage of children. The world is overpopulated. There are plenty of children that need homes that they could take in. There's no reason for more unwanted children to be born, in my opinion.

Cheers,

Lost

If my mother had had an abortion I probably wouldn't be here now. Or may be I would. May be I would be my little brother or sister, or may be I would be someone elses child altogether. May be I wouldn't be anything. The point is, I don't believe I was in this body until the moment I breathed my first breath, so ultimately, I don't think it would've mattered much to me either way.

And, exactly Zombie. No offense to men, but it's impossible for men to understand what it's like to be able to form a life inside of you and then birth it. It is you living off of you. A being that is a part of you and will eventually seperate and become it's own person. It's not just "O, she got pregnant. She's going to have a baby." Uh... it's not all about the baby. The baby isn't even alive if not for the mother yet, and moreover it's inside a human being.

I think it's still hard for men to understand sometimes that women are human beings. Human beings with independant thought and bodies of their own, that don't belong to their babies. The babies belong to them. And boys, just because you poured the milk doesn't mean you had anything to do with baking the cake.

It's something the woman goes through alone. All the man does is supply the seeds while the woman does all the hard work. And who is to say what's right and what's wrong and if the fetus is an independant being or if it's not. No one knows yet or else we wouldn't still be arguing this.

I'm not saying everyone should go out and get abortions. I would never pressure a woman to get an abortion - it's a horrible and hideous thing have to do. But, I would never try to make someone feel bad for having to have one. Because obviously they already feel bad or they wouldn't subject themselves to that. And not being able to empathize with that kind of pain makes a person inhumane.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

In the King James version they completely neglect to mention not only Jesus' moment of doubt when approached by Satan, but they don't mention his moment of doubt on the cross. And they gloss over the fact that he savagedly beat and left several men for dead after they trashed a temple. Now, that doesn't sound very Christian to me. First of all, because it was a temple (joke), second of all because you're supposed to turn the other cheek - not respond with violence.

He resisted the temptations of the Devil, he never had doubts. The devil told him to turn stone to bread when he was fasting and he didn't. He told him to jump from a cliff and let God's angels catch him, and he didn't. He told him to bow down, and all the kingdoms of the earth would be his and Jesus still resisted.

He beat the hell out of the money changers out of the temple, not because they "trashed the temple" but because they had turned it into a place of business and were swindling money from people. It was also his father's house. He had every right to beat the shit out of them. Christianity is not always about "turn the other cheek". All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Once again, the whole basis of the Christian religion is belief that Christ was the perfect son of God. If he was flawed, he was not the son of God. If he was flawed, he could not have died for the sins of man, because he would've been dying for his own sins, not ours.



quote:- This isn't an argument about whether or not abortion is right or wrong. I'm not going to argue that with you. And I'm not going to take your opinion seriously because you will never even ever be able to fathom in the slightest what it might possibly be like to have to carry a child you don't want. And about other women wanting to have children - there is no shortage of children. The world is overpopulated. There are plenty of children that need homes that they could take in. There's no reason for more unwanted children to be born, in my opinion.

Cheers,

Lost

1) If there is no shortage of children, why is the waiting list for adoption so long?

2) What does it matter if one 'wants' a child or not? Whatever happened to accepting responsibility for your actions? You fuck, you get pregnant. It's been happening for millions of years. If you are too immature to raise a child if you happen to conceive one, you shouldn't be fucking.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

If there is no shortage of children, why is the waiting list for adoption so long?



Because no one wants to adopt a child, they want a cute widdle baby of their very own.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Because no one wants to adopt a child, they want a cute widdle baby of their very own.

Ummm...except for the hundreds of thousands of couples in which either the man or woman is sterile due to testicular cancer, cirvical/ovarian cancer, or numerous other problems that can occur with the reproductive system.

He resisted the temptations of the Devil, he never had doubts. The devil told him to turn stone to bread when he was fasting and he didn't. He told him to jump from a cliff and let God's angels catch him, and he didn't. He told him to bow down, and all the kingdoms of the earth would be his and Jesus still resisted.

He beat the hell out of the money changers out of the temple, not because they "trashed the temple" but because they had turned it into a place of business and were swindling money from people. It was also his father's house. He had every right to beat the shit out of them. Christianity is not always about "turn the other cheek". All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Once again, the whole basis of the Christian religion is belief that Christ was the perfect son of God. If he was flawed, he was not the son of God. If he was flawed, he could not have died for the sins of man, because he would've been dying for his own sins, not ours.[b]

- So say The King James Version. But, it's amazing how different the story goes in the original text.

[b]1) If there is no shortage of children, why is the waiting list for adoption so long?

- dearestnight is right, first of all. Most of the child in need of adoption out there aren't infants and most people who are looking to adopt are looking to adopt infants. Not many people are on the market for an unwanted seven year old with abandonment issues... And if you didn't know the world is overpopulated, apparently you've been sitting in a cave with your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears your whole life.

2) What does it matter if one 'wants' a child or not?

- You will never understand what it's like to be unwanted by your own mother, because your mother wanted you so bad she kept you despite the fact that you were the result of a sexual assault. However, there are many people who have to wake up every day knowing that not even their own mother wanted them, hated them, resented them. Knowing that may be even they ruined their parents lives and there's nothing that can be done about it. It's a nasty feeling.

Whatever happened to accepting responsibility for your actions?

- Whatever happened to making a mistake. And you talk as if abortion is a walk in the park. It's not an easy or fun thing to do. Nobody does it because it's fun. If you go through an abortion, you are taking responsibility for your actions in a very big way.

You fuck, you get pregnant. It's been happening for millions of years. If you are too immature to raise a child if you happen to conceive one, you shouldn't be fucking.

- If only everything were that black and white.

Cheers,

Lost

i have a niece that i thank god every day is here. her mom, my sister, decided to not make her child pay for an accident.

and i disagree with you about him going with her as christianly.

lets call this as it is: shes making a decision where his feelings wont even be taken into account. i dont see why, with that, as well as a legitimate moral revulsion to the practice, that hes compelled to do anything. indeed, being involved spills some blood on his hands.

you are asking him to go back on his beliefs, regaurdless of your feelings on them, and then be apart of the action. thats incredible. its also incredible that youd try to guilt trip him over this.

the only thing thats sad here is that your friend may want to murder someone because she opened her legs. does your friend not have the strength of charecter to own and 'woman up' to her responsibilites?

life is rough. but at what age do you stop passing the fucking buck?

i have not read the rest of this thread.

well since theres somuch christian bashing, i think its worthwhile to point out that losts background is jewish, if you couldnt guess.

in the most cheerfull ad hominem bashing spirit: with such a streak of vile inherent in your tribe, is it any wonder every so often massive amounts of ppl rise to make jews exist only in museaums?

like it or not, men have opinions too. your judgement as to the validity of mine or anyone elses carries all the weight of the breath you use to speak it. since our opinions arent considered or needed, i fail to see why it matters to you at all.

as an aside, equal rights and all, i think that since abortion is the sole decision of the woman, any duty borne on that man should be just as voluntary.

Nihilist, you're a chauvinist twat. Get off totse.

quote:Originally posted by TheMelancholyZombie:

Nihilist, you're a chauvinist twat. Get off totse.

care to explain?

#1: i think the "men don't have a say in abortion" argument is horseshit. Anyone has a right to voice a position in any honest debate. Discluding 50% of the population from such an important issue suggests that you're not secure enough in your arguments to debate them honestly.

Also, women don't just magically get pregant (unless they are giving birth to a messiah), there's a man who is going to be impacted by the outcome of the decision, so screw you for suggesting he doesn't get a say.

#2: your "good christian" friend is having sex outside of marriage. it looks like one sin is going to become 2 sins. not that i'm judging; i sin hundreds of times a day, i'm just saying ...

#3: John and Suze made an adult decision to have sex. Adult decisions sometimes carry adult consequences. Suze probably wouldn't want to hear this, but i think she should have the baby and put it up for adoption. Turn a bad choice (i.e. having sex before you're prepared) into a positive one (i.e. give a wanting couple the oppurtunity to raise the child you aren't ready for).

I'm very moderately pro-choice. I think the government should stay the hell out of it, but i think adults should have the strength of character to take responsibility for their adult actions. Your friends are a perfect example.

quote:Originally posted by Nihilist:



lets call this as it is: shes making a decision where his feelings wont even be taken into account. i dont see why, with that, as well as a legitimate moral revulsion to the practice, that hes compelled to do anything. indeed, being involved spills some blood on his hands.

you are asking him to go back on his beliefs, regaurdless of your feelings on them, and then be apart of the action. thats incredible. its also incredible that youd try to guilt trip him over this.

the only thing thats sad here is that your friend may want to murder someone because she opened her legs. does your friend not have the strength of charecter to own and 'woman up' to her responsibilites?

life is rough. but at what age do you stop passing the fucking buck?

i have not read the rest of this thread.

I'm not asking him to do anything! I was telling him that if he is anti-abortion he wouldn't want to get the morning after pill because that's considered abortion, too! I was trying to be considerate of his beliefs, but apparently you didn't read that part...

My point was, though, is that she would get an abortion anyways, with or without him. But, if she did it alone it would be because he turned his back on a problem he helped put her in because apparently she's not good enough for him to associate with.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Ummm...except for the hundreds of thousands of couples in which either the man or woman is sterile due to testicular cancer, cirvical/ovarian cancer, or numerous other problems that can occur with the reproductive system.

Sorry, I didn't phrase that specifically.

I mean, they want to adopt a BABY, not a CHILD.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nihilist:

well since theres somuch christian bashing, i think its worthwhile to point out that losts background is jewish, if you couldnt guess.[/qoute]

Don't be stupid, Nihilist. This is not Christian bashing. If you looked at the title I mentioned The Good Christian And Abortion. I have nothing against Christianity.

And as far as my background, yes, I grew up Messianic Jew (though you probably don't know what that is), and if you do know what it is you'd know that it's more or less Christianity. Aside from that fact, I've read the top three most popular bibles at least twice each, not to mention lots of Judaic, eastern, middle eastern, and african doctrines. I make this my field of study, if you haven't picked up on that.

in the most cheerfull ad hominem bashing spirit: with such a streak of vile inherent in your tribe, is it any wonder every so often massive amounts of ppl rise to make jews exist only in museaums?

- I hope you don't call yourself a Christian...

like it or not, men have opinions too.

- Yea, but in my personal opinion I don't care about male opinions on abortion. Just as I'm sure you could care less about my opinions on circumcision.

as an aside, equal rights and all, i think that since abortion is the sole decision of the woman, any duty borne on that man should be just as voluntary.

- When the fetus forms as a part of the mans body, then it can because a concern of the mans. Until then, it's not.

Besides, this thread isn't even supposed to be about abortion - which I'm not going to argue with people. Arguing over the internet is like bashing your head against a wall... And frankly, I don't care if you agree with me. This thread is about good christians being good christians and trying to figure out what's right, in their way, in a flawed world.

But, no one apparently can see pass the abortion thing. Your lives must be really boring...

Cheers,

Lost

by theBishop:

#1: i think the "men don't have a say in abortion" argument is horseshit. Anyone has a right to voice a position in any honest debate. Discluding 50% of the population from such an important issue suggests that you're not secure enough in your arguments to debate them honestly.

That's just my opinion. You don't have to agree with me. This thread isn't about abortion. This thread is about good christians finding their way on the christian path through a flawed world.



#2: your "good christian" friend is having sex outside of marriage. it looks like one sin is going to become 2 sins. not that i'm judging; i sin hundreds of times a day, i'm just saying ...

- That was the major point to begin with. That a major sin had already been commited. I had no idea he was such a devout Christian. I don't know how that slipped by me. But, that's why I was telling him: if he's really concerned with sin he shouldn't get the morning after pill either. I told him he really needed to talk to her and sort things out. But, ultimately, he had to be there for whatever she decides to do, because ultimately he can't stop her. He may not like it, but there's not much he can do after the fact.

#3: John and Suze made an adult decision to have sex. Adult decisions sometimes carry adult consequences. Suze probably wouldn't want to hear this, but i think she should have the baby and put it up for adoption. Turn a bad choice (i.e. having sex before you're prepared) into a positive one (i.e. give a wanting couple the oppurtunity to raise the child you aren't ready for).

- As if there aren't enough unwanted children in the world already, let's bring in another one.

I was just surprised it was an issue to him. He's kind of a punk rock guy. I assumed he was very pro-choice. I mean, I'm not freaked out that he's not or anything. I just found it kind of facinating that here he is: a good christian who has sinned and now has his back to a wall and it appears that all his choices are bad. So, what bad choice to make? And what's worse is that it's really not his choice to make? What would be his choice, would be to turn his back on her or to stick with it nomatter what.

Cheers,

Lost

Her body. Her choice.

Her fucking problem then.

If males have no rights as

to the outcome of impregnation,

then they should not have any

responsibilities.

No taxation without representation.

Frankly, she's probably not pregnant. Just cause the condom broke doesn't mean it was the right time of the month to conceive.

But yeah, the best thing he can do is figure out what he thinks the godly choice is and encourage her to see the same. But support, or at least don't attack her final decision.

As for your cynical "as if there aren't enough..." point, if there truly are "enough unwanted children", then how do you explain the waiting lists filled with primarily upper middle class couples looking to adopt infants?

PS: i'm pretty "punk rock" and me and my girlfriend of 5 years are waiting to get married to have sex. I'm not saying i expect everyone to do the same, but its not impossible to live a christian life in this "flawed world".

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Her body. Her choice.

Her fucking problem then.

If males have no rights as

to the outcome of impregnation,

then they should not have any

responsibilities.

No taxation without representation.



hahaha... that's a pretty cynical thing to say, but i can't disagree. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Her body. Her choice.

Her fucking problem then.

If males have no rights as

to the outcome of impregnation,

then they should not have any

responsibilities.

No taxation without representation.

Makes sense.

Also, Lost, http://www.biblegateway.com has 19 versions of the Bible. Please show me the one in which Jesus sins. Jews obviously believe Jesus sinned, because they deny that he is the Christ.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by theBishop:

Frankly, she's probably not pregnant. Just cause the condom broke doesn't mean it was the right time of the month to conceive.



I told him that, too. Besides, the girl he got knocked up is in her mid thirties and I know that women are still very fertile at that point, but it's not like he's fucking a twenty year old who can get pregnant just by sharing soap with a guy.

As for your cynical "as if there aren't enough..." point, if there truly are "enough unwanted children", then how do you explain the waiting lists filled with primarily upper middle class couples looking to adopt infants?

- Because most of the unwanted children aren't babies, or their not in the right country to be easily accessable. People want a little baby of their own, not some eight year old with abandonment issues. But, nevertheless there is no shortage of unwanted children. Have you ever tried to adopt a child? My aunt has twice and I was with her through the whole process, so I happen to know for a fact.

PS: i'm pretty "punk rock" and me and my girlfriend of 5 years are waiting to get married to have sex. I'm not saying i expect everyone to do the same, but its not impossible to live a christian life in this "flawed world".

When I said that I was making a generalization. It just didn't seem like something he would suddenly say. I mean, he's a very liberal guy and all of a sudden he sprung that on me - I was just kind of surprised.

Anyways, whatever I guess you kind of get what I'm talking about.

Cheers,

Lost

First off I don't like out of marriage sex. My mother got pregnant at 19 and my dad ran off to america. Also its pretty unchristian.

Second, for Nihilist, LostCause is a self destructive Jew, just like Abbie Hoffman, or Naom Chomsky, or Allen Ginsberg, or Jesus. She can't help it, its in her genes, anymore than you can help being you.

Third, the morning after pill is not an abortion. It causes the fertilised egg to be unable to bind or draw nutrients from the womb lining. I don't know why Lost Cause is against it, but for abortion.

Fourth, only one in six fertilised eggs(zygotes I think) actually bond to the womb lining, so I wouldn't really worry.

And I totally agree with the argument that what goes on in a womans womb is noone else's business but hers. Just as what goes on in my basement is noones business but mine.....

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

As many of you may know I'm very pro-choice. I'm so pro-choice I don't even really like to discuss it with people who aren't, because it only annoys me and I refuse to be one of those people who tries to tell other people what to believe.

But, I have this friend (we'll call him John) who slept with a friend of mine (we'll call her Suzie) and the condom broke. I'd never known he was anti-abortion before, and when he told me I kind of laughed. I thought he was joking. I just said

"I think it's funny when men think their opinions on abortion matter. That's like me having an opinion on circumsicion." and then, just for speculation I voiced my opinion to him. Then he was all of a sudden serious and like

"No. Really. I'm anti-abortion."

and I was like "Wait. Really? Are you a Christian?"

"Yea." He said.

"O, well, then..." The conversation became difficult for me. "Well, you know she'll probably want an abortion." I told him. "If she wants one, what are you going to do?"

He tells me "Well, I'm not paying for one." He says he's trying to get her the morning after pill. So I tell him

"John, just to let you know - I mean, if this is a spiritual Christian thing - the morning after pill is a form of abortion. And under the eyes of the Christian faith it's considered just as wrong."

Suddenly he got very forklempt. He really didn't want her to get an abortion, but it was definite that she would want one if she was pregnant. So, I told him this:

"Alright, John, listen: if your back is to a wall - your back is to a fucking wall. If she wants an abortion, you may not like it and it may be against your beliefs, but it would make you an even worse Christian to make her go through all that by herself. Because then, not only aren't you stopping the abortion from happening, but you're turning your back on someone in their time of need, and a time of need you helped put them in. So, it may be wrong, but you might just have to choose the lesser of two evils. I'm sure you'll do the right thing."

I mean, John is a good guy.

I think the whole point with this thread is, in Christianity and any religion there's a lot of things that are considered wrong and bad to do. But, sometimes as living people we have to make bad choices. We can't always do the right thing because sometimes doing what seems right makes things worse someway else.

I'd also like to specify that I also said at the end that I'm not trying to change his mind about anything. I mean, if he's anti-abortion, that's fine with me - as long as he's a good Christian about it. Which means turning the other cheek for those who aren't, and means being empathetic for those in need, no matter what the situation. That's the great thing about Christianity. It allows you room for mistakes, because we're not perfect people and even if we were, we're not living in a perfect world.

I will just never sleep with him and will avoid the subject forever from here on out with him.

Cheers,

Lost

I dont want to sound like an asshole or anything, but your opening statement makes you sound more close minded than any Christian I know of.

Anyway, I would suppose that if your friend is stupid enough to be a "good Christian" and fuck a little on the side without commiting to a real relaionship (*cough* marriage *cough*), he pretty much deserves what he gets.

The Bible has alot of stuff in it, you know... and they arent suggestions either.

Personally, since I am a Christian too, I would rather not have abortions period. Then again, you have to determine where the line between the life of the mother and the life of an unborn child lies. Personally I have to draw the line when the child is capable of sentient thought, or able to live outside the mother (whichever comes first as cases may be). When the baby has the ability to think and feel, then I must say that life has begun.

[This message has been edited by ArgonPlasma2000 (edited 10-10-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

"I think it's funny when men think their opinions on abortion matter. That's like me having an opinion on circumsicion."

That's really all I object to here.

I have strong opinions regarding circumcision...

The mere fact that he is male does not exclude him from having an opinion regarding abortion and does not make his opinion any less valid than that of a womans...

Personally, I'm all for 'choice'...in all aspects of a persons life, but when a decision involves more than one person, the one[s] holding the power usually has/have the final say.

But I think that if she chooses to abort it, that it would not be a bad thing for him to accompany her while she is having it done. I think that would show compassion, if nothing else. It doesn't mean he agrees or concents to it.

Either way, he should be there to face the consequences of his choices.

I also agree that the morning after pill could be considered abortion as well. The only difference is that no one would know for sure if the egg had been fertilized or not.





[This message has been edited by outcast (edited 10-10-2005).]

Personally, i think the bible is pretty vague about abortion, but pretty damn clear about fornication.

Sin is sin, but "good christians" should value the bible more than the evangelical political agenda.

I shall now give my enlightened opinion on this subject.

1)Abortion is bad. If you took a perfectly healthy adult who had broken several key bones and needed 9 months to recover, would it be okay to not feed that adult because they would be a burdeon? No. Whether or not you think that's life, 9 months later if given the chance that "tissue" will become a human being. Those two consenting adults made a choice to have sex, and they should live with the consequences. If the mother was raped, that's different because there was no choice there.

2) The father should have a say. That's his baby too. That's his child. If she can't handle it, she should carry the baby to term and either put it up for adoption or let him handle it. Let the baby grow up to be old enough to make the decision, and see if it thinks that it should've been aborted.

3) If this man feels about abortion the way that I do, he can not go with her to support the action of having an abortion. He needs to make his feelings known that her getting this done would be wrong. If she does carry his child he should protect, support, and love her through the pregnancy, but this is his child that will cease to be.

4)These two made a decision as consenting adults. They should live with the consequences. I cannot stress that enough. Yes, it will be difficult for her, yes, this could seriously impact her life in negative ways, but she should have thought of that before she had sex. My fiancée and I have been going out for a year and a half. I would love nothing more than to make love with her. I cannot think of another woman I could ever find more attractive than her. However, I have kept the mouse away from her house for this long and I will continue until we get married, for that is what is right. This guy and this girl have sinned, and God will forgive that if asked, but there is no reason to make the sin greater. Neither party will feel good about it.

5) That all being said, I believe that the government should stay out of the question of abortion. Too many bad things happen when the government illegalizes it. (coathangers anyone). I think it should be strongly discouraged, but not illegalized. I vote libertarian.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

I shall now give my enlightened opinion on this subject.

1)Abortion is bad. If you took a perfectly healthy adult who had broken several key bones and needed 9 months to recover, would it be okay to not feed that adult because they would be a burdeon? No. Whether or not you think that's life, 9 months later if given the chance that "tissue" will become a human being. Those two consenting adults made a choice to have sex, and they should live with the consequences. If the mother was raped, that's different because there was no choice there.

2) The father should have a say. That's his baby too. That's his child. If she can't handle it, she should carry the baby to term and either put it up for adoption or let him handle it. Let the baby grow up to be old enough to make the decision, and see if it thinks that it should've been aborted.

3) If this man feels about abortion the way that I do, he can not go with her to support the action of having an abortion. He needs to make his feelings known that her getting this done would be wrong. If she does carry his child he should protect, support, and love her through the pregnancy, but this is his child that will cease to be.

4)These two made a decision as consenting adults. They should live with the consequences. I cannot stress that enough. Yes, it will be difficult for her, yes, this could seriously impact her life in negative ways, but she should have thought of that before she had sex. My fiancée and I have been going out for a year and a half. I would love nothing more than to make love with her. I cannot think of another woman I could ever find more attractive than her. However, I have kept the mouse away from her house for this long and I will continue until we get married, for that is what is right. This guy and this girl have sinned, and God will forgive that if asked, but there is no reason to make the sin greater. Neither party will feel good about it.

5) That all being said, I believe that the government should stay out of the question of abortion. Too many bad things happen when the government illegalizes it. (coathangers anyone). I think it should be strongly discouraged, but not illegalized. I vote libertarian.



1) This point hinges on whether or not an unborn fetus/blastocyst/etc should be considered a human with rights. I don't have an anwer for this, and you don't have a 100% factual answer either.

2) agreed, for the most part.

3) This depends on your definition of "support". Ultimately, Lost is right that the woman can make the decision no matter what he thinks is right, so if she aborts the pregnancy against his wishes, do you think his role should be to abandon her emotionally? I don't.

4) Agreed. Sex is not a bodily need. Actions have consequences and there's no condom in the world that claims 100% effectiveness. These people knew the risks.

5) also agreed. Safe, Legal, and Rare, just like my man John Kerry said. I miss that guy ...

PS: did you go through with the Mormon conversion? If so, i have some things to say about that.

[This message has been edited by theBishop (edited 10-10-2005).]

I think LostCause is forgetting that babies just dont happen without two partners.

Chalk up another reason why feminism is bad.

abort,abort,abort.

HomerJay, very intelligent post,

even though you sound like a

christian.

If god hates abortion, why does

he cause so many himself, naturally?

The problem as I see it, like with

alot of issues, is where to draw

your arbitrary line.

Just like with age laws, drug laws,

obscenity laws...

I can't help but think it is

strange, that the second your

head pops out of the pussy,

you magically transform into

a valuable person with rights.

One last problem I have...

the mother can choose to abort

the "fetus" as it is only tissue

and part of her body.

But if a pregnant woman does drugs,

they put her in jail for endangering

a "child".

If you hurt a pregnant woman and

she loses the "fetus", you can

be charged with "manslaughter" for

killing her "baby".

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

I think LostCause is forgetting that babies just dont happen without two partners.

Chalk up another reason why feminism is bad.

No, I mentioned it before. But, just because you pour the milk doesn't mean you baked the cake. The woman forms the baby, feeds the baby, keeps the baby alive, and then births the baby. All the man does is provide the sperm, which can be done with a turkey baster. Frankly, men hardly do anything in the process and are really unneccisary considering that now we can get sperm from sperm banks...

And you may not like my views and you may not agree with me, and I'm okay with that.

This thread wasn't meant to be about abortion. But, apparently you people can't see the point. You're blinded by the mention of the word "abortion" because ooo, that's a taboo word. You all have an opinion on abortion so instead of actually reading what I said you just decided to go ahead and voice your opinion on something this thread isn't even about.

"Just waiting for your turn to talk" I guess... Pathetic.

Cheers,

Lost

First of all, in my experience, morning-after pills aren't considered abortion except by right-wing christians trying to deny teenagers prescriptions. I would have urged him to let her use the morning after pill, just to avoid abortion crap.

Basically, they're in this together. John should tell Suzie what he thinks about abortion and why, and they should talk it over, even if the final decision is Suzie's. But whatever happens, John is in this with her. This was a joint choice and responsibility, from conception, to birth or abortion, and beyond, so they screwed up, they need to fix the mistake, not abandon each other over whether a few cells count as a person.

I'm very anti-abortion. Why? 50 million babies from the 80's generation alone have been MURDERED. "What about my life?" Well, If you cared much for your life, you would have kept a dime between those knees and did what you were going to do. What about the babies life? Life is a gift from God. For us to chose if a baby lives or dies, it's wrong. It's murder, that can not be dressed up. If abortion is ok, why not make it ok up until the age of 35? I can just walk up to a 35 year old with a gun and say, "ABORTED!" And not even be tried for it. If you're old enough to do adult things, then you're old enough to take responsibility for your actions. If the land can have sin, and cry out to God, the innocent blood shed of those babies cry out to God as well. America has ALOT of blood on her hands, that can not, for too much longer, be unacknowledged. Murder is not a birth control. "Oh, it's not murder." Yes, it is. That's a living organism in your womb. Protien is the building blocks of life.

quote:Originally posted by crazygoatemonky:



Basically, they're in this together. John should tell Suzie what he thinks about abortion and why, and they should talk it over, even if the final decision is Suzie's. But whatever happens, John is in this with her. This was a joint choice and responsibility, from conception, to birth or abortion, and beyond, so they screwed up, they need to fix the mistake, not abandon each other over whether a few cells count as a person.

That was my point. Thank you. Somebody got it.

Cheers,

Lost

hmmm i couldve swore i posted something here last night.

dreaming of totse?

You caused the page stretch.

[This message has been edited by LostCause (edited 10-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

No, I mentioned it before. But, just because you pour the milk doesn't mean you baked the cake. The woman forms the baby, feeds the baby, keeps the baby alive, and then births the baby. All the man does is provide the sperm, which can be done with a turkey baster. Frankly, men hardly do anything in the process and are really unneccisary considering that now we can get sperm from sperm banks...

And you may not like my views and you may not agree with me, and I'm okay with that.

This thread wasn't meant to be about abortion. But, apparently you people can't see the point. You're blinded by the mention of the word "abortion" because ooo, that's a taboo word. You all have an opinion on abortion so instead of actually reading what I said you just decided to go ahead and voice your opinion on something this thread isn't even about.

"Just waiting for your turn to talk" I guess... Pathetic.

Cheers,

Lost

The issue was you Christian friend and his attempted abortion (or whatever). You begged that one were to debate on if he was right to abort the child.

The topic of this discussion is the good Christian and abortion. If this thread is not about abortion, why is it a main point?

And good luck making sperm out of nothing. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

No, he does not have to be supportive. No he should not "be there for her". If she aborts and he feels strongly about it, he needs to do the right thing and stay the hell away from it.

If she just couldn't take her parents any more and she decided to gun them down should he "be there" for her? No.

If she had the baby and decided to dump it in the colorado river, should he watch?

If he believes, as most christians do, that abortion = murder, then he can't have anything to do with it. even if he doesn't believe that strongly, he has to believe that she is sinning, and if he goes with her, he's party to that sin.

And seriously this "you can pour the milk, but that doesn't mean you helped bake the cake" shit is just that, shit. Now, if I was helping you bake a cake, and I put in half the ingrediants, and then we put it in the oven and you suddenly decided that you didn't want the responsibility and so you took the cake, with my ingrediants in there and spilled it all over the floor, would that be cool? No. That's my stuff you ruined. Who cares who's oven it is? That's my stuff. Now if I just left the house and told you to deal with the cake, that might be okay, as I have abandoned my stuff. However if I supported the oven, and did everything I could do to facilitate a better cake-baking, then you have no right to destroy my stuff just because you're too goddamn lazy to follow through. Look, suze and whoever started baking a cake together. They knew that if they did certain actions, they might bake one, then suze decides to be a bitch and go destroying john's stuff, and not just any stuff, but john's most important stuff, well that's just being a bitch.

And I would like to clarify something. I heard a rumor that you, lostcause have had somewhat of a checkered past as far as abortions go. Someone, and I will not tell you who said that you "don't even know how many abortions you've had."

Is this true?

If not I will immediately delete this section of my post.



[This message has been edited by HomerJay603 (edited 10-11-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HomerJay603:



If she had the baby and decided to dump it in the colorado river, should he watch?

[b]

The baby would have to alive for her to do that, and that would be wrong. But, again this isn't about my opinions on abortion. This is about figuring out what's right when it's not always clear.

[b]And seriously this "you can pour the milk, but that doesn't mean you helped bake the cake" shit is just that, shit. Now, if I was helping you bake a cake, and I put in half the ingrediants, and then we put it in the oven and you suddenly decided that you didn't want the responsibility and so you took the cake, with my ingrediants in there and spilled it all over the floor, would that be cool? No. That's my stuff you ruined. Who cares who's oven it is? That's my stuff. Now if I just left the house and told you to deal with the cake, that might be okay, as I have abandoned my stuff. However if I supported the oven, and did everything I could do to facilitate a better cake-baking, then you have no right to destroy my stuff just because you're too goddamn lazy to follow through. Look, suze and whoever started baking a cake together. They knew that if they did certain actions, they might bake one, then suze decides to be a bitch and go destroying john's stuff, and not just any stuff, but john's most important stuff, well that's just being a bitch.

- I don't think it really matters if you think she's being a bitch. You form a life inside of you and let it barrel it's way out of you, ripping through your ballsack and then tell me she has no right to be a bitch about it. Besides that, like I said before, you can get sperm from sperm banks now. As far as I'm concerned you're lucky the government doesn't have millions of you sterilized like they do in China.

Damn Chinese are smart bastards.

And I would like to clarify something. I heard a rumor that you, lostcause have had somewhat of a checkered past as far as abortions go. Someone, and I will not tell you who said that you "don't even know how many abortions you've had."

Is this true?

- Clarify what? That you spread inane gossip? Not that it's any of your business, but no I have no had a billion abortions and I don't keep the fetuses under my bed, and I don't sit up at night chanting evil encantation to the spirits of all the dead children who's lives I've savagedly ripped from their little bodies.

What has happened, is I have had a miscarriage. I had a miscarriage and had to go to the hospital for a DNC with is like an abortion, only the fetus is already dead. But, I did have to go to an abortion clinic. And there were petitioners for anti-abortion outside calling me evil because my husband beat the crap out of me and my baby was dead. I did have to go under, and bleed for a week, there were complications. It was the most horrific experience of my life and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Therefore, I would never suggest abortion as a quick fix for anything. I only had a DNC and it was godawful.

But, whatever. You wouldn't know anything about that.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HomerJay603:



If she had the baby and decided to dump it in the colorado river, should he watch?

[b]

The baby would have to alive for her to do that, and that would be wrong. But, again this isn't about my opinions on abortion. This is about figuring out what's right when it's not always clear.

[b]And seriously this "you can pour the milk, but that doesn't mean you helped bake the cake" shit is just that, shit. Now, if I was helping you bake a cake, and I put in half the ingrediants, and then we put it in the oven and you suddenly decided that you didn't want the responsibility and so you took the cake, with my ingrediants in there and spilled it all over the floor, would that be cool? No. That's my stuff you ruined. Who cares who's oven it is? That's my stuff. Now if I just left the house and told you to deal with the cake, that might be okay, as I have abandoned my stuff. However if I supported the oven, and did everything I could do to facilitate a better cake-baking, then you have no right to destroy my stuff just because you're too goddamn lazy to follow through. Look, suze and whoever started baking a cake together. They knew that if they did certain actions, they might bake one, then suze decides to be a bitch and go destroying john's stuff, and not just any stuff, but john's most important stuff, well that's just being a bitch.

- I don't think it really matters if you think she's being a bitch. You form a life inside of you and let it barrel it's way out of you, ripping through your ballsack and then tell me she has no right to be a bitch about it. Besides that, like I said before, you can get sperm from sperm banks now. As far as I'm concerned you're lucky the government doesn't have millions of you sterilized like they do in China.

Damn Chinese are smart bastards.

And I would like to clarify something. I heard a rumor that you, lostcause have had somewhat of a checkered past as far as abortions go. Someone, and I will not tell you who said that you "don't even know how many abortions you've had."

Is this true?

- Clarify what? That you spread inane gossip? Not that it's any of your business, but no I have no had a billion abortions and I don't keep the fetuses under my bed, and I don't sit up at night chanting evil encantation to the spirits of all the dead children who's lives I've savagedly ripped from their little bodies.

What has happened, is I have had a miscarriage. I had a miscarriage and had to go to the hospital for a DNC with is like an abortion, only the fetus is already dead. But, I did have to go to an abortion clinic. And there were petitioners for anti-abortion outside calling me evil because my husband beat the crap out of me and my baby was dead. I did have to go under, and bleed for a week, there were complications. It was the most horrific experience of my life and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Therefore, I would never suggest abortion as a quick fix for anything. I only had a DNC and it was godawful.

But, whatever. You wouldn't know anything about that.

Cheers,

Lost

Do you have something against men or something? Seriously, If there was a 1/100 chance that if I did something I'd have to grow a fetus inside a barrell and have it rip my ballsack, I'd either not do actions condusive to that, or I'd carry the barrell. I wouldn't punk out just because I didn't feel like doing what I signed on to do.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I'm very anti-abortion. Why? 50 million babies from the 80's generation alone have been MURDERED. "What about my life?" Well, If you cared much for your life, you would have kept a dime between those knees and did what you were going to do. What about the babies life? Life is a gift from God. For us to chose if a baby lives or dies, it's wrong. It's murder, that can not be dressed up. If abortion is ok, why not make it ok up until the age of 35? I can just walk up to a 35 year old with a gun and say, "ABORTED!" And not even be tried for it. If you're old enough to do adult things, then you're old enough to take responsibility for your actions. If the land can have sin, and cry out to God, the innocent blood shed of those babies cry out to God as well. America has ALOT of blood on her hands, that can not, for too much longer, be unacknowledged. Murder is not a birth control. "Oh, it's not murder." Yes, it is. That's a living organism in your womb. Protien is the building blocks of life.

Life is something that can think and reason or has been born (by legal standards). A lot of countries abort babies, not just America. And believe it or not other countries have economical reasons to do so. These are reasons you can't comprehend because you don't live in extreme poverty. I think it's sad that most Americans refuse to accept cultural relativism. But what the hell go waste more energy and spend more of your "hard earned dollars" on shit you don't need. Oh yeah and keep complaining about abortion.

quote:Originally posted by Atomical:

Life is something that can think and reason or has been born (by legal standards). A lot of countries abort babies, not just America. And believe it or not other countries have economical reasons to do so. These are reasons you can't comprehend because you don't live in extreme poverty. I think it's sad that most Americans refuse to accept cultural relativism. But what the hell go waste more energy and spend more of your "hard earned dollars" on shit you don't need. Oh yeah and keep complaining about abortion.

Cultural relativity? One mans trash is another mans threasure. How can you say that we do not accept cultural relativity if we treasure something others take for trash? Did you perhaps mean "cultural assimilation"?

And for God's sake, Lost Cause, please edit or delete the page stretch!!!!

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:



5) also agreed. Safe, Legal, and Rare, just like my man John Kerry said. I miss that guy ...



Sorta reminds me of something I heard about Bush Snr.

It used to be common sense amoung Most sensible republicans that however bad sex-before-marriage was, abortion was worse, thus pushing condoms is just as good as "fighting abortion".

What was funny is that I remember reading that Bush Snr at one point had the nickname "rubbers" around washington, because of his support of condoms.

not really relavent to your post, but sorta to the topic.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

Do you have something against men or something? Seriously, If there was a 1/100 chance that if I did something I'd have to grow a fetus inside a barrell and have it rip my ballsack, I'd either not do actions condusive to that, or I'd carry the barrell. I wouldn't punk out just because I didn't feel like doing what I signed on to do.

No. I don't have anything against men. I just don't think they're opinion on the subject of abortion is very relavant. Just like my opinion on circumsiscion is irrelavant. That doesn't mean I don't have an opinion, but it's not relavant, because I don't know what it's like to have a penis.

And you say you wouldn't "punk out" now, but if you were in that situation it might be different. You don't know because you're not a female, number one, and number two abortion isn't "punking out". It's one of the most horrific things a woman could ever go through. Way more traumatizing than having a baby, if you ask me. The only reason a woman would do it would be for the same reason an animal will gnaw off it's limb to get out of a trap. And if they can't get the abortion, they're liable to just stick a hanger up themselves and end up killing the baby and themselves. And where does that get anyone?

Cheers,

Lost

Can anyone show me the verse where Jesus beats up people?

Hey lost, let me blow your fucking mind.



Im adpoted and im pro choice!. yeah thats right. and i believe in jesus, but not in the typical sense.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Sorta reminds me of something I heard about Bush Snr.

It used to be common sense amoung Most sensible republicans that however bad sex-before-marriage was, abortion was worse, thus pushing condoms is just as good as "fighting abortion".

What was funny is that I remember reading that Bush Snr at one point had the nickname "rubbers" around washington, because of his support of condoms.

not really relavent to your post, but sorta to the topic.



Yeah, it is just a reasonable position. Kerry didn't make up that "slogan", i've definintely heard both Clintons use it.

But Pro-Lifer's that voted Bush got the shaft. Abortions went up every year under Bush. They went down every year under Clinton. Perhaps abstinence-ony eduction is just as bone-headed as everyone thinks it is.

So what to Pro-Lifer's value more? Lip service or results?

[This message has been edited by theBishop (edited 10-12-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

No. I don't have anything against men. I just don't think they're opinion on the subject of abortion is very relavant. Just like my opinion on circumsiscion is irrelavant. That doesn't mean I don't have an opinion, but it's not relavant, because I don't know what it's like to have a penis.

And you say you wouldn't "punk out" now, but if you were in that situation it might be different. You don't know because you're not a female, number one, and number two abortion isn't "punking out". It's one of the most horrific things a woman could ever go through. Way more traumatizing than having a baby, if you ask me. The only reason a woman would do it would be for the same reason an animal will gnaw off it's limb to get out of a trap. And if they can't get the abortion, they're liable to just stick a hanger up themselves and end up killing the baby and themselves. And where does that get anyone?

Cheers,

Lost



How is our opinion not relevant? That's john's child. If he's willing to take care of her during her pregnancy, both emotionally and financially, and thereafter take care of the baby, he should have just as much a say as her. Yes, I understand that having a baby must be a terrible burdeon, especially in a society that frowns upon it, however whatever mitigating terms you want to put on a fetus, you have to realize that it is still an organism that if allowed to grow will become a human being. It's not part of the mother. It is an entirely different creature unto itself, a creature which has the genetic material of two people within it. It's his child as much as it is hers. She might have to take care of it for 9 months, but the spark of life came when his genetic material collided with hers. Until you can make a baby without another man you can never in good conscience hold sole dominion over them.

Using your opinion, or lack thereof, about circumcision is a fundamentally flawed analogy, as that foreskin is not yours. No part of it belongs to you. You neither helped create it, nor does your genetic material reside within it.

Bottom line:

Yes, having a baby is a huge burdeon, but she should have thought of that before she had sex.

1) How the hell does she know anymore than I do at this point? Has she had a baby before? Does she know what it's like to be pregnant? If she's just starting to get pregnant I'd bet she knows just as much as I do.

You forget as well that although being pregnant and having a baby can be stressful, it can also be the most wonderful experience a person can have. It's what we were put on this earth to do, and whether or not you admit it, somewhere within you, you agree.

2) If it's so much more traumatizing, then why the hell would you get one? What possible excuse could you have if having the baby would be better than aborting it?

3)It's not like an animal gnawing off it's own foot, because the animal knows that if it doesn't it's probibly going to die, whereas this chick will be back to normal in about a year. It is punking out. Plain and simple it is making the problem go away rather than sticking it out and dealing with it.

4) If it's a choice between having an abortion and sticking a coat hanger up there I'd say have the abortion. I never said I was pro-life, or that I want abortion to be illegal, quite the opposite. I am a libertarian. I believe that abortion the way it is set up now is perfect, that any reason to illegalize it is outweighed by the potential negative effects thereof. I simply believe that abortion is a sin and shouldn't be done in any but very extreme circumstances.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Cultural relativity? One mans trash is another mans threasure. How can you say that we do not accept cultural relativity if we treasure something others take for trash? Did you perhaps mean "cultural assimilation"?

And for God's sake, Lost Cause, please edit or delete the page stretch!!!!

First of all I never said that those babies are trash. In a starving world choosing to abort really is a positive if they child is going to die anyways. It's more humane this way.

I say you don't accept cultural relativism because you don't think or care about the ideas of other cultures. You are only interested in talking about a christianity centered world.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:



How is our opinion not relevant? That's john's child. If he's willing to take care of her during her pregnancy, both emotionally and financially, and thereafter take care of the baby, he should have just as much a say as her. Yes, I understand that having a baby must be a terrible burdeon, especially in a society that frowns upon it, however whatever mitigating terms you want to put on a fetus, you have to realize that it is still an organism that if allowed to grow will become a human being. It's not part of the mother. It is an entirely different creature unto itself, a creature which has the genetic material of two people within it. It's his child as much as it is hers. She might have to take care of it for 9 months, but the spark of life came when his genetic material collided with hers. Until you can make a baby without another man you can never in good conscience hold sole dominion over them.

Using your opinion, or lack thereof, about circumcision is a fundamentally flawed analogy, as that foreskin is not yours. No part of it belongs to you. You neither helped create it, nor does your genetic material reside within it.

Bottom line:

Yes, having a baby is a huge burdeon, but she should have thought of that before she had sex.

1) How the hell does she know anymore than I do at this point? Has she had a baby before? Does she know what it's like to be pregnant? If she's just starting to get pregnant I'd bet she knows just as much as I do.

You forget as well that although being pregnant and having a baby can be stressful, it can also be the most wonderful experience a person can have. It's what we were put on this earth to do, and whether or not you admit it, somewhere within you, you agree.

2) If it's so much more traumatizing, then why the hell would you get one? What possible excuse could you have if having the baby would be better than aborting it?

3)It's not like an animal gnawing off it's own foot, because the animal knows that if it doesn't it's probibly going to die, whereas this chick will be back to normal in about a year. It is punking out. Plain and simple it is making the problem go away rather than sticking it out and dealing with it.

4) If it's a choice between having an abortion and sticking a coat hanger up there I'd say have the abortion. I never said I was pro-life, or that I want abortion to be illegal, quite the opposite. I am a libertarian. I believe that abortion the way it is set up now is perfect, that any reason to illegalize it is outweighed by the potential negative effects thereof. I simply believe that abortion is a sin and shouldn't be done in any but very extreme circumstances.

stfu n00b.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

#1: i think the "men don't have a say in abortion" argument is horseshit. Anyone has a right to voice a position in any honest debate. Discluding 50% of the population from such an important issue suggests that you're not secure enough in your arguments to debate them honestly.

Also, women don't just magically get pregant (unless they are giving birth to a messiah), there's a man who is going to be impacted by the outcome of the decision, so screw you for suggesting he doesn't get a say.

#2: your "good christian" friend is having sex outside of marriage. it looks like one sin is going to become 2 sins. not that i'm judging; i sin hundreds of times a day, i'm just saying ...

#3: John and Suze made an adult decision to have sex. Adult decisions sometimes carry adult consequences. Suze probably wouldn't want to hear this, but i think she should have the baby and put it up for adoption. Turn a bad choice (i.e. having sex before you're prepared) into a positive one (i.e. give a wanting couple the oppurtunity to raise the child you aren't ready for).

I'm very moderately pro-choice. I think the government should stay the hell out of it, but i think adults should have the strength of character to take responsibility for their adult actions. Your friends are a perfect example.

I think I should shoot you in the face. It's a bad choice, but it will feel good and give me a boner and God may like that.

Man I'm high. I'm going to stab some kid if this humming feeling doesn't go out of the back of my head. Fuck I wish I could stab you people in this thread. I wish I could make your throats bleed dry.

I mean, if I make the adult choice to cut open your throat and inspect the insides, what will your adult response be to that action?

Where is the fascist world where people weren't allowed to make adult decisions for other man's business. Where is the fascist world where people got shot for judging another man's shit. Where is the world where we fight space aliens on cocaine? Fascism is a bliss I'm blessed with. May the bones that judge me make a fine gelatin.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

It's not part of the mother. It is an entirely different creature unto itself, a creature which has the genetic material of two people within it.

- That's up for debate. If there was an answer, we wouldn't be arguing about it now. And just out of curiosity, do you get what this thread is actually about at all?

It's his child as much as it is hers. She might have to take care of it for 9 months, but the spark of life came when his genetic material collided with hers.

- That's also up for debate. In Judaism they don't belive that life enters the body until the first breath is taken. Therefore, the moment of conception has nothing to do with it.

Until you can make a baby without another man you can never in good conscience hold sole dominion over them.

- You can make a baby with a test tube these days.

1) How the hell does she know anymore than I do at this point?

- Because she's a woman and she has a uteris. Because she gets her period every months and bleeds uncontrollably for a week as a reminder that she's not pregnant. And because, yes, she's also already had a baby. And inherently, women do know more about this.

You forget as well that although being pregnant and having a baby can be stressful, it can also be the most wonderful experience a person can have.

- I don't forget that. But, it depends on the situation. It's not a wonderfull experience if you don't want it and you're being forced into it by some controlling man who has no idea what you're going through.

2) If it's so much more traumatizing, then why the hell would you get one? What possible excuse could you have if having the baby would be better than aborting it?

- Because they feel like there's nothing else that they can do. No one wakes up in the morning and says "Hey, I think I'll get an abortion today! That sounds like fun!"

3)It's not like an animal gnawing off it's own foot, because the animal knows that if it doesn't it's probibly going to die, whereas this chick will be back to normal in about a year. It is punking out. Plain and simple it is making the problem go away rather than sticking it out and dealing with it.

- That's not true. You're not back to normal in a year. It can take an entire lifetime to get over having to do something like that. It's a horrorfying thing to go through and it will change you and can follow you to your grave. And in a lot of instances they get the abortion because they believe it will kill them. I'm getting sterilized when I'm 25 (because that's the age you can get it done in my state) because odds that having a child would kill me. I have acute skitzophrenia, number one, I had an extremely traumatizing pregnancy, number two, and the surgery was somewhat botched so there's scar tissue in my womb so if I got pregnant I'd probably either have a miscarrage or an utopic pregnancy - with could easily kill me.

That's reason enough for me to get an abortion.

4) If it's a choice between having an abortion and sticking a coat hanger up there I'd say have the abortion. I never said I was pro-life, or that I want abortion to be illegal, quite the opposite. I am a libertarian. I believe that abortion the way it is set up now is perfect, that any reason to illegalize it is outweighed by the potential negative effects thereof. I simply believe that abortion is a sin and shouldn't be done in any but very extreme circumstances.

- Well, I agree with that mostly. I do believe in sin, in a way. I don't believe that all the things we're told are sins are sinfull, but I believe that murder is a sin and that anything that you do that makes you feel as bad an abortion does is probably frowned upon by "god", but I'm very pro-choice. Choices are good, bottom line.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Her body. Her choice.

Her fucking problem then.

If males have no rights as

to the outcome of impregnation,

then they should not have any

responsibilities.

No taxation without representation.

Haha, thats a good point.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

Just like my opinion on circumsiscion is irrelavant. That doesn't mean I don't have an opinion, but it's not relavant, because I don't know what it's like to have a penis.

One could argue that you, with prepuce intact, know more about what it's like to have a foreskin than your average chopped-at-birth man.

Back to the point, I think John has some serious medit-I mean praying to do. Maybe he should even ask, no joke, "What would Jesus do?" As in the Jesus that he has a personal relationship with. Empathy much?

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Her body. Her choice.

Her fucking problem then.

If males have no rights as

to the outcome of impregnation,

then they should not have any

responsibilities.

No taxation without representation.

That is a good point, and I'm not going to get into what I think about that situation because it doesn't really have anything to do with the topic at hand. But, I think the reason the guy traditionally pays for it (and pays for most things when it comes to women) is a topic for Humanities. There is a reason, though, that I believe in why the man is supposed to traditionally pay.

But, you're right on a purely neutral standpoint. However, relationships are rarely neutral.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I think I should shoot you in the face. It's a bad choice, but it will feel good and give me a boner and God may like that.

Man I'm high. I'm going to stab some kid if this humming feeling doesn't go out of the back of my head. Fuck I wish I could stab you people in this thread. I wish I could make your throats bleed dry.

I mean, if I make the adult choice to cut open your throat and inspect the insides, what will your adult response be to that action?

Where is the fascist world where people weren't allowed to make adult decisions for other man's business. Where is the fascist world where people got shot for judging another man's shit. Where is the world where we fight space aliens on cocaine? Fascism is a bliss I'm blessed with. May the bones that judge me make a fine gelatin.

i'm still waiting for the day that Snoopy contributes anything useful to any debate.

at any other messageboard, he'd be banned, not made moderator.

You gave me an idea there. I think I'll have you banned. Shiteater.

There are many things to consider when having a baby. And if you can't take care of it, then don't have it. Cause you are just dooming the child to a shitty life of malnutrition, sicknesss, abuse, death, or many other things.

This is why people in 3rd world countries with little food, little money, no medical care, and a mud hut for a house don't have babies. Because they know they can't take care of it, and likely die.

While in the U.S. it may not be to that extreme...there is no way a 14 year old girl, from a poor 1 parent family home in the housing projects is going to be raising a child on her own. Hell, her own mother probably barely supports her. She can't leave her education to raise a child full time, get a job, etc. So the obvious choice is to not have a baby. If you somehow got pregnant by accident, there is something you can do. Abortion! Or the morning after pill.

I am not saying, have sex all you want un-protected, and everytime you get pregnant, just have an abortion. I don't think anyone really does this...too damn expensive, and a hassle. I am just saying if you made a mistake of getting pregnant, or getting someone pregnant, you can always fix the problem before it's too late. This is of course, after the 2 parents involved discuss what they want to do and make a decision.

*******with this in mind********

I don't understand why people who are pro-life, are saying "if you don't want the baby, then don't get pregnant in the first place - or don't have sex".

They didn't want to get pregnant, IT WAS AN ACCIDENT. So a pro-life person might say "well then you shouldn't have sex".

Does this mean that people should NEVER ride bikes, drive cars, fly in airplanes, go skiing, because they don't want to get in an accident and get hurt? They should never do things, because there is small chance something adverse can happen? It is ridiculous to think so.

Imagine if you NEVER used a kitchen appliance because there is chance you migh tget burnt by the stove/oven/toaster. Or you never use a sharp eating utensil such as a knife or fork, because it is possible you can cut yourself.

If people lived in such a life of fear, then we would never do anything.

So how does this relate to sex? It is the same thing. Just because there is a small chance that a condom might break, and the woman would co-incidentally be in a fertile condition, doesn't mean a couple should not have sex with each other. If they aren't ready for a baby, they can still have sex and take pre-cautions by using a condom.

Just like when you drive you car everyday, you don't plan on getting in an accident, but it might happen to you.

So what do you do when it happens to you? You deal with it. If you feel an abortion, morning after pill, or adoption is teh best choice then do it. And that is that.

Just because you make a mistake, doesn't mean that you should not take actions to correct it.